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Comments
Andre: Can you really say that Honda has cured the rust problems, for all their good points they tend to rust worse than almost anything else made currently. (That statement won't be popular to the Honda faithful!)
Survey sez....
Datsun 510
(well, maybe an RX3 with a straight pipe...I expect the Geneva Convention has something to say about that though...)
[to everyone else...]
Not to turn this thread into the "Datsun 510 are the best cars in the world" thread...but due to wonderful parts interchange, light weight, and a reasonably good design, they really do kick butt as daily drivers which are fun to drive. With a reasonable set of fresh upgrades (all of this stuff is easy and tolerably cheap) you end up with a pretty, tossable, quick enough car. I think with a few suspension items (cut springs, sway bars, shocks, 7 inch wheels, larger tires) and a mild drivetrain upgrade (Datsun 2 liter and 5 speed with better exhaust, mild cam, and a dialed in Hitachi or Weber downdraft) you get a car which is as capable as a new GTI (top speed and comfort excepted).
No disrespect to anyone who likes them, but they are not overly stylish, and it seems to me the reason to own something older is due to it being different in some way to what is available today. Am I missing some facts to consider here?
Now ease of repair, that argument I can buy.
At the 78 Marquis is different in it's room, quiet, and comfort compared to more modern designs. Stylish, not so sure about that.
Justifying any old car project is kind of a slippery slope. I guess for a car to get a constituency there must be *something* there worth doing. Air cooled VW's are one that you could argue about forever.
I think what you get with a 510 is the following (some sort of list could be built for any make/model)...
Ease and cheapness of repair, easy access to wear parts.
Some degree of racing success (not just the whole BRE/Bob Sharp thing, but years of success in SCCA sedan classes and rallying)
Light weight.
Disk brakes/IRS
Smog immune in California (for now)
Pretty and simple looks (YMMV)
Really a super good platform for a pretty exotic hotrod. Being RWD, having super good interchange with larger Datsun cars (as sources for brakes, transmissions, engines, etc.) and reasonably cheap (you aren't chopping up a Bugatti, after all) lends itself to some darn outrageous iterations of these cars. Look around on the net a little bit (www.bryanf.com for instance) and it's pretty amazing how much is going on out there.
Really fun to drive if set up reasonably well. They have the kind of handling that matters the most to me, that kind of seat of the pants thing rather than the magazine road test knowledge that everyone tends to argue about.
Really the 510 thing through the years is as much a religion as reality. People tend to either get it or not. The average person tends to wonder what all the fuss about an older s**tbox is all about. There's probably a regional bias thing at work here. I'll bet that 510's are darn unusual outside of the western U.S.
If you think of older cars as platforms for modification rather than stock vehicles, I think you can cut the car universe down quite a lot (if money matters to you). You end up with a list like...
'67-'69 Camaros
'65-'70 Mustangs
Porsche 914s
Datsun 240z/510
BMW 2002's (maybe)
Jeeps
VW Beetles
... and probably some more stuff I can't remember.
Start trying to build a road racer Studebaker, say, and the money and fabrication needs start mounting up pretty quick, I would think.
I just saw a swap on TV that I think qualifies for first prize in the "why?" category: a Jag V12 in the trunk of a '65 Corvair. In addition to all the quirks a Jag V12 normally has, I bet that one throws fan belts too.
Mercury Marquis--aside from being a poster child for bad car design, the thing is pretty frightening at speeds over 35 mph or so. Maybe YOU feel in control driving Mom's sofa down the highway but I don't feel so good in cars like that. Oh, you can get by, but one has to keep reminding oneself that one is not in a modern car as you fly off the freeway onto that hard right-bender.
Basically you could point to cars like the Marquis as responsible for the near death of the American auto industry. Can't take ALL the blame of course.
Problem with that kind of project, is that by the time you cobble up a rack and pinion steering system, deal with electronics issues, buy the drivetrain, etc., etc. you might as well go out and buy a Factory Five cobra kit (for example) and end up with 75 cents on the dollar rather than 25 cents.
Dad sold the 510 to an uncle (age 16) in 1977, he sold it to his girlfriend's sister, she ran it into a tow truck while 'hot-rodding' (her legacy also included several RX-7s, 280Zs and Porsches after, so you know what she's like!!). So that Datsun 510=DOA. Gotta love orange w/black interior, for 1971.
Those cars were kinda the grandfather of all the [non-permissible content removed]/Mod cars of today. I would love to have that car back (without the rust!!).
I forgot obout that until I sat in one a couple of years ago. The doors were thin and the car was built like a tin can. I remember the seats sat bolt upright and were very thinly padded.
Sure would hate to get hit in one compared to today's cars!
Still...they were near bulletproof transportation and handled well too.
Also keep in mind they sold for around $1,600. It was a lot of car for the money. Same price as a VW but faster, cuter, warmer, with better brakes and handling and modern drivetrain.
It would be an interesting exercise to drive around a '72 510 and then hop in a '72 VW.
The only thing the VW can do better than the 510 is outlast it.
Just to show another car with some bucks invested...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=599111294&r=0&t=0
really not too bad for 10k.
Off topic... I saw a good argument for buying older cars (or at least used cars) yesterday parked near here. A 1997 Audi S8, 50 some odd thousand miles, $28k. The car had the window sticker up which showed the new price as over $68,000 (!!!!!). Holy moley. The original owner not only got that smidge of depreciation (fourty thousand dollars in four years) but I'll bet the new owner gets the joy of an ultra complex car just coming off warranty. Oh man, who's buying this stuff? I understand the concept of buying new for reliabilities sake, so, ok, buy a new Ford Focus or Toyota truck or something for 15-25 thousand, spend the other 40 thousand on something cool.
(There, hopefully with that caveat, some fool whose entire automotive history consists of:
Corolla Wagon
AMC Concord
2001 BMW M3 Coupe
won't weigh in to hassle me).
When I was at a Saab dealership in August I saw a fleet of new unregistered 2000s--9-3s, 9-5s, even a very nice Aero. Obviously the entire line-up is uncompetitive throughout its price range and you wonder why they don't just lower prices, but then they'd loose some cachet. GM would rather have the 9-3 viewed as an alternative to the 3 series, not the Accord. Must be the same thing with the A8.
But paradoxically this makes a case for buying one used if you have champagne tastes on a beer budget, and if you plan to drive it into the ground, and if you don't mind throwing expensive parts and labor at a car with marginal value. That's a lot of "ifs"...
Crash tests in 1972? Yeah...
And, do you really think a 72 VW would outlast a 510? As I remember it, the VW engines if well maintained would usually push close to 100K before an overhaul was needed. It seems that 510 engine was longer lasting than that?
Going back even farther, I think the late fifties early sixties PV 544 Volvos were a much better value than a VW beetle. They were well built and had a strong powertrain that would leave a "bug" in the dust! I've owned a couple of these and would love to find another.
The VW engine sucked big time but you know you could nurse them along.
I LOVE PV544 Volvos. Actually I think the 122 is even a better car. The 122 was one of the best cars ever made. Solid, great engine, easy to work on, reliable as you could ever want. All you had to do was listen for worn timing gears and keep replacing u-joints and that was about it.
Some 544s have the earlier B16 engine, not the B18. You don't want a B16.
If nothing else, it's pretty hard to get high mileage (150k+) on an engine with no oil filter and serious heat expansion/contraction. (and yes, I have seen a number of 150,000 mile, original engine 510s...burning oil, starter turns them too easily...but still running).
The guy I want to track down (and thrash) is whoever designed battery containment 'systems' on practically any old Porsche/VW product. If there's a problem in a Beetle/356/914 etc. it's because of a leaky battery spewing its venom in a critical (structural) section of the car. How hard would it have been to add some sort of hardy battery container to all of those cars?
As for the 510, I spent a couple of hours in the back seat of one on a trip so all I know about the car first hand is that it's an okay place to be a passenger. Oh yeah, and that it could be short shifted like a '39 Ford.
All suspension bushings are being replaced with Polyurethane, And I have found bilsteins to fit it.
A set of 235-70VR15 Reinforced whitewall Goodyear Eagle RSAs will rplace the 225-75SR15 sloppy donuts it now has.
That should firm things up a touch!
But I like it for what it is (And yes Andre, the 8-track works! =D). Its not bad on the highway, and is VERY VERY comfortable.
THis may be my new road trip car!
Bill
As for the 510, it was a really indestructable (engine, trans, clutch) car from what I remember. Of course, most of what I remember was as a three year old brat in the back seat! The car did rust kinda badly, but probably not any worse than most cars built in 1971 and run in Chicago.......and it cost $1800, remember.
Oh yeah, the neighbors had a 510 also, there's was a 68 FOUR DOOR with an automatic on the column, not quite the same animal.
I got to drive a '76 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible about 100 miles the other day, and that was a very scary car. The chassis flex was incredible. And this was a low mileage, mint original, too, not an abused automobile.
Certainly some sway bars and some sort of chassis bracing would be absolute minimum on an old boat from the 70s. The Cad has disc brakes so that wasn't too bad at all. The front hood (the world's largest) just "oilcanned" down the road as the chassis flexed over bumps. Oh, and 10 mpg, too.
Now not every single one I've ever been in has done this, but more than enough to make me think it's a common problem.
As for the title of "longest hood", would a Pontiac Grand Prix of '69-72 vintage possibly have a longer hood than an Eldorado? Even though the Grand Prix was a midsize back then, the thing just seemed to be all hood. In fact, looking under the hood, it looked like there was enough room ahead of the engine to put another engine, and make a V-16!
I've sat behind the wheel of some Lincoln Mark V's, too, and they seemed like they were all hood, too, with not a whole lot of legroom inside for a car that big.
Anyway, a Mustang convertible felt like a Mercedes in comparison.
My daily drivers are an '87 Chevy Nova and a '93 Volvo 850, so I have no experience with vintage Cadillacs.
p.s. A friend of mine has a '76 Eldorado convertible that's just sitting in his driveway; it's been parked since 1995. It has 58k original miles, has rust holes along the trunk and has a big hole in the top. He's asking $3000 for the car, and it does not run. What do you think?
I've tended to notice it mainly on cars with large expanses of hood that aren't braced up too well. My '57 DeSoto does it a bit.
I think some of those old cars can be kind of scary because they tended to be over powered and under-braked. They could be safe as long as you didn't get too stupid with them. For the most part too, cars didn't have the road feel that they do today, and tire technology has come a long, long way.
As for that '76 Eldorado, I think they can be nice cars, but $3000 is a bit steep for one that hasn't been run in 7 years. If it has a big hole in the roof, I'd be worried about the interior and the floorboards by now. There used to be a '73 or so in my neighborhood for sale for around $3000, and considering I've seen it in several places, it either still ran or was still push-able! The '73 is the same basic car, but I think they stretched out the rear for '75-76, because those later models just look more massive.
Never driven one myself, but if Mr. Shiftright's opinion is any indication on how badly they drive, maybe there is a good reason for them being the last. I guess you can say driving one is definitely an acquired taste.
Driving my 67 Galaxie Convertible and they hopping in my Intrepid R/T, the R/T feels cramped, and the steering feels very heavy. The steering on the Galaxie has absolutely no feel to it. Times change, eh?
Compared to the Eldorado, I'm smoking at 14 mpg in the Galaxie.
I came close to buying a '72 Impala 'vert back in 1991, when I was in college. When I drove it it seemed pretty solid, but then again I only had 1991-vintage cars as a frame of reference and, well, for the most part, that Impala made most '91 era cars look kinda crappy themselves. I'm sure with all the improvements we've seen since then, that '72 today wouldn't look as good as I remember it in 1991!
But then again, my '67 Catalina 'vert seems pretty solid. When you hit a bump, you can see that the back half of the car shakes independently of the front half, but it's not worse than the several modern Sebring convertibles I've driven! A lot more quiet too! Well, except for those not-quite-legal mufflers ;-) And if I don't push it too bad, I can actually get 17-18 out on the highway!
I drove an old Bonnie convertible (can't remember the year---389 4-speed) a few weeks ago and it was a lot better, felt a lot more solid than this Eldo. I think it's just the sheer bulk and weight of the Eldo that makes it feel so out of control. This is an enormous car.
This is not to say the car didn't have a few neat features. The top mechanism is fun to watch go up and down, and I like the way the trunk closes...you just press it and some claw grabs it and pulls it shut. I hate to think about children's fingers, but........
I think I had an electric race car set from the Sear's catalogue in the early 70's that had the 510 as a police car. (Sear's catalogue was the coolest way to look at the newest toys in the pre-internet days).
Also think I saw Godzilla crush a few in "Godzilla and the Smog Monster."
In high school a buddy had a black '64 PV 544.
One night we decided to throw an M-80 over the back fence of a guy we knew...Oh, I know...we were kids!
The resultant explosion rattled the neighborhood causing many porch lights to come on, dogs to bark etc. I guess a neighbor spotted us and called the cops.
Anyway, an hour later, in another part of town, we were pulled over by the cops.
Of course, they seperated us but our stories were the same....we knew nothing about anything.
After the cops left, my buddy started laughing.
The neighbor had described the car as a dark colored '48 Ford!
I'd seriously consider owning another 544. They are really fun to drive, and with just a few modifications their weaknesses can be overcome and performance can be upgraded enough for modern roads. I bet you could keep a car like that running forever, as long as parts hold out.
At the time, they were a few bucks...not much more money than a beetle.
Someday, I'll find one worth buying.
Hopefully I can get it spring-summer, I will tell you how it goes.
It needs some work, some kids ripped a mirror off, and stuff like front end work etc, hopefully the paint isn't too shot it resides under a carport. When he stopped driving it it was in really good shape, she only drives it once in a while. The engine is really strong, think it has over 200,000 with no rebuild.
It will be my highway cruiser as my trucks don't serve that purpose too well lol