...if you can find one with a non-Chevy V-8 (and definitely a non-Pontiac 301!), they're virtually bulletproof. Especially engines like the Pontiac 350/400 and Olds 350/403. I'm personally a bit squeamish about the Buick 350, although others say they're great engines too. It's just that the 231 V-6, which was based on the Buick 350, was a piece of junk back then. The Chevy smallblocks back then were known for premature crankshaft failure and early valve-guide wear caused by faulty EGR valves. IIRC, Chevy engines were also more likely to get stuck with the under-sized TH-200 tranny, which was under-sized for even V-6 engines, let alone V-8's.
GM's RWD intermediates from '78-88 were also pretty good, being based on the B-bodies, but in a much more nimble size. The '78-83 Malibu is about the size of a modern Accord or Camry. The main downside is that the rear windows in 4-door models are stationary, so a working air conditioner is almost mandatory in hotter climates!
If you're going to get an old car with lots of power options, GM is the way to go. While all that power stuff like seats, mirrors, windows, locks, antennas, etc, will all fail eventually, GM's stuff just seems to hold up better. My mechanic said that Fords have the highest failure rate for power windows, with Chrysler somewhere in between.
Friends don't let friends drive old German luxo cars, eh? Your point is well taken. I'm just flailing while being pulled ever closer to that maelstrom that is the Toyota Sienna minivan... As far as beater GMs are concerned, I agree... I had an '83 Malibu wagon for quite awhile; sold it to trade "up" to an '87 Audi 4000 in early '97. The 4000 is long gone, my Malibu is still running around town; see it occasionally. AC was cold, the electronic carb was actually working, and the engine computer could correctly diagnose faulty sensors (it does not matter how I know). -Mathias
"The main downside is that the rear windows in 4-door models are stationary, so a working air conditioner is almost mandatory in hotter climates"
I heard about this. GM said something about there not being enough space in the door because it was so small. If that was true, then why today are windows going alll the way down these days??? Just lazy.
Was the B-Body the Caprice? Come to think about it, it wasn't really that big....so.......maybe I could handle it. But it's hard to find one in good driveable condition.
If you don't mind so-so gas mileage and biggish size, old RWD GMs are great cars. They're sturdy, cheap to buy and easy/cheap to maintain. As Andre said, the power stuff doesn't fail much either, and the a/c is strong. In the three or so years I had my '77 Caprice, I think the only things I had to replace were the alternator ($200 or so, IIRC, this was in 1986) and the transmission, which was my fault ($500 installed, LOL). In general, their looks have held up pretty well, too.
They could have made those things roll down if they really wanted to. Instead though, they hollowed out the door panels to make room for recessed armrests, so there was noplace inside the door for the window lift and guide, and noplace for a window to roll down into. On the plus side, this gave the intermediates about the same amound of elbow room as full-sized cars. On the downside, they were hot and stuffy and made a/c a requirement. As it was, GM's '78 intermediates had more shoulder room than the Ford Fairmont and Granada, and Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare, and the LeBaron/Diplomat models that they competed most directly against. But those cars were still considered compact, and the Malibu & company were supposed to compete against much bigger cars, like the Ford LTD-II/Mercury Cougar, and Dodge Monaco/Plymouth Fury.
GM also claimed that having a stationary rear window and a flip-out vent window in back actually gave better airflow than a roll-down window. What it really gave though, was a savings of a few bucks per car, and that's what really counts. Back then though, GM was really pushing to cut weight anywhere they could in the interests of fuel economy. Prior to downsizing, GM's Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) was the worst of the Big Three. It's not that their cars, model-for-model, necessarily got worse mileage than Ford or Mopar counterparts. GM simply relied much more on larger cars than Ford or Chrysler, which were just about held up by models like the Pinto, Granada, Maverick, Duster, Dart, Valiant, etc.
As for whether a rear window can go down all the way or not, it just depends on the design. Cars like the '78 Malibu had enormous glass area, probably moreso than many cars today. Most cars today with rear windows that do roll all the way down use a stationary quarter window as a spacer, and the roll-down window is fairly small, in relation to the door.
As for my own experience, I've had 3 GM intermediates from that era...an '80 Malibu 229, an '82 Cutlass Supreme 231, and an '86 Monte Carlo 305. They all got about the same mileage...15-16 around town and lower 20's on the highway. The Monte had a 4-speed automatic, which made up for the fact it was a bigger engine than the other two. My family also has an '85 LeSabre with a 307. When I drive it, it gets around 14-15 around town, although I've gotten into the lower 20's out of it.
My '77 Caprice (305 2-barrel) got about 20 on the highway, more or less 15 City (IIRC), which incidentally isn't a whole lot worse than the 4-cylinder SAAB I just got rid of. In any case, it was a massive improvement from my previous car (the '71 Electra), which got ~6mpg City, seriously.
Well, my son has it in his head that he wants an '86 Camry from a family member. Essentially, he will be paying $500 for a car that has about 200K miles on it.
While I don't particularly like the idea of spending money on a car with that kind of mileage, it's his money. It runs, so I guess $500 for anything that runs makes it a good purchase. What I'm worried about are the maintenance costs on something with that kind of mileage. I'd rather him save more money and buy something that's a bit less used.
Anyone have any input as to what to look for, $ wise that he may have to pay to keep this beast on the road?
I'll open this up even further regarding good/cheap $1,000-$2,000 "beaters"?
Ask yourself this question... What kind of shape is the Camry in, and was it reasonably well cared for? At least you have some insight, since the car was family owned. For $1K-$2K, I doubt you're going to find anything much better, and you'll be going in blindly, since you probably wil be dealing with a stranger. With that kind of budget limitation, IMHO I'd go with the Camry, unless you know that it was truly abused. Then again, if it's run this long, someone must have taken decent care of it.....
like Leadfoot said, at least with this car, you should have some insight as to how it was maintained and driven.
I'd say give it a good check-over, make sure all the fluids look decent, check under the hood for signs of anything leaking, drive it around to see if the engine/tranny act up, brakes make any evil noises, etc.
Then, if the car seems like something that might be worthy, take it to a mechanic you trust and have them check it out and put it through an inspection.
I've had a few high-mileage cars (My '68 Dart now has 338,000 miles on it), and have had pretty good luck with them, for the most part. On a cost-per-mile basis, I figured out that it's run me around 10 cents per mile, + gas and insurance. Just for comparison, my '79 Newport ran about 13 cents a mile, my '89 Gran Fury about 16 cents a mile, and my '00 Intrepid, about 23 cents a mile.
In addition to the engine and tranny, I'd definitely look at the suspension. That's probably the next most expensive thing that can go wrong. Well, there's a/c, but that's not really a necessity with a $500 car!
Also, have a good look under the hood of that car, and try to estimate how easy it will be to work on. Stuff like belts and hoses, spark plugs, the air filter, battery, alternator, etc. Does it look like something you and your son could work on together, or would you have to constantly be depending on a repair shop to keep it running?
Problem with beaters is maintenance costs.we have a 92 Chrysler with 130k miles on it.Last month we put 1,300 into it for various needed maintenance.For a young person,shelling out that kind of money every year (6 mos) in maintenance could be tough especially when you consider what young people have to pay for insurance.
Kids want their cars but the things are money pits.
I have had some experience w/ an '86 Corolla. I know it's not a camry, but at least there are going to be some similarities.
I owned it from 96-99 paid 1000 for it, and put almost 50k miles on it. In this time the repairs were: All belts changed(timing included) cost: 100.00 New Tires(early 99) cost: 150.00 New battery and starter cost: 150.00 New muffler cost: 45.00
These were all the unanticipated things I changed except the tires. The battery, left my lights on once to many, muffler was rusted out when I got it, starter died in 98. Belts were changed in 98 b/c timing belt snapped thank goodness for noninterference motors. Aside from that, all normal maintenance including one tune-up, oil changes, brake pad change, etc.
Oh yeah, changed out the front shocks in 97 cost me about 100.00 for both fronts.
The biggest heartache that I had was that since it was an LE, it had power windows and locks. Well the switches had long since given up so I mustered all the good parts on all the doors and was able to use both front windows for a while, then only the drivers window went up and down. In hawaii, that sucks! At least the A/C kept going until the very end!...
The end of the car is still a mystery. I think I had a clogged heater core or something, because one day, the temp guage just started hauling for the H, and nothing helped(even turning on heater, and stopping) just idling would overheat the engine at that point. very strange... well I overheated it too badly that time(among other problems so just tried to drive it home... letting the engine shut itself down is bad) The headgasket went about .25 mi from my house, and then the timing belt melted. It was towed the last 1/8 mi and a junk yard towed it away for free. But it went about 8 miles overheated... =o)
This was replaced by a 94 Corolla for 4g's that now has 150k miles and still going.
...because of repairs that were piling up. We took it to a local mechanic that I've dealt with for years, and had them go over it and find just about everything wrong with it that they could.
Here's what it needed: -new front brake pads and rotors -rear brake adjust -new center link -new idler arm
-engine mounts -valve cover gaskets -belts -tuneup -tranny service -exhaust work (hole in the catalytic converter) -belts & hoses
The estimate for all this stuff was around $1200-1300. We had the first four items done, for about $600, and were going to wait on the rest. My uncle was planning on driving this car to work, so he wouldn't be racking up so many miles on his truck, which just hit 90,000 miles and almost paid off. He ended up getting a brand-new Corolla though, about a week after my grandmother put $600 into the car. She was mad, but in the long run my uncle did the right thing. At the time he was driving about 90 miles a day, but he got relocated and it's now more like 130. I'm sure just the fuel savings alone would've been pretty impressive.
The Buick also needed 4 new tires, so figure about another $200+ there, depending on the quality of the tire. The last straw was when the brakes went out. At that point we decided to not put any more money or effort into the car. Now a lot of what it needed was just maintenance stuff...any car, even a new one, will need stuff like belts, hoses, brakes, tuneups, tranny services, etc, after awhile.
I don't know how Japanese cars age, but with domestic ones I think I'd almost trust one that's 15 or 20 years old before I'd trust one from the late '80's/early '90's. For the most part they were simpler, and when they did break they were cheaper to fix. In the rare even that an old Chrysler Torqueflite does fail, you could probably get another used one thrown in for a few hundred bucks. When I bought my '89 Gran Fury, I bought it from a dealership that fixes up old police cars. I remember he told me that if the tranny went, he could throw in another used one for around $300. If the 318 blew, that'd be about $1,000. You really can't do that with an early '90's Chrysler though. If your 4-speed tranny is fried, well, the chances are the ones in the junkyard aren't going to be any better, and you're looking at around $2500+ for a rebuild. In contrast, a Torqueflite in these parts is only around $800 for a rebuild.
.... You don't get much for $500 nowadays, if it runs well, it's safe I would grab it .. like others have said here, 200k is not bad for a Yota .. even if you had to drop another $5/$700 and it lasted another 12/15k, it would be worth it ...
I am trying to take my cars to 200k. This frankly does take some effort to maintain. Now, I'm fussy and try to keep it in top shape, but Tom and Ray of Cartalk.cars.com found that it takes about $1200/year to maintain cars over 5 years. This is accurate as a whole, although it varies widely each year. For example, one year I spent only $350, then the next wife hit a curb so I had to replace the steering components on the unharmed side as well to a tune of $2,000.00. The next year it was 1100.
Save about $100/ month and it will save a lot of emotional hassle.
I got my license in late 1986, and finally got insurance in January of '87. That's when my Mom gave me her old '80 Malibu. That summer it needed a new a/c compressor, and in the fall it needed an alternator. Later that year, in November, my Granddad took it to the place his brother-in-law used to work at, to get the tranny serviced and some other stuff looked at. Well, the total bill ended up being about $1250! It basically needed a new rear-end...axles and everything. I remmeber just the axles were $145 apiece, so that was 1/4 of it right there. I forget what all else they did at the time, but it was a hard lesson to this 17 year old at just how expensive a "free" car can be!
But then the next year, 1988, I think I spent all of $95.00 on the car. It wouldn't start one night when I was leaving work, so I had it towed home, and Granddad looked at it the next day (we lived right across the street from them back then). Turns out the starter was shot. I remember between the starter and the tow, it was about $95.00.
In 1989, the heater core went out in February, and the water pump that summer. I also rear-ended someone that summer, and got a front-end clip from an identically-colored 1981 Malibu for $200. That September, I found a '69 Dart GT that I just had to have, and about 2 months later, the Malibu wouldn't pass the emissions test. Granddad fooled around with it, and second time around it did worse! That's when I took it off the road, started driving the Dart, and sold the Malibu a few months later.
All in all, it wasn't a bad car, and I guess was indicative of how sporadic repairs can be. One year catastrophe, the next year almost nothing, and then the next year somewhere in the middle.
Still, I had that car about 3 years, and probably put $3,000 max into it (counting the repairs, the new front end clip, a stereo and big speakers, and a few things I probably forgot about). I sold it for $500, which wasn't bad considering it had been banged up a bit and wouldn't pass the emissions test. So the net effect was that it was basically costing me about $70 a month + gas + insurance.
I really try to avoid vehicles with all the "bells and whistles." Nothing is more expensive or irritating than spending money repairing things like power seats, power windows, power aerials and the like. Generally the simpler the car, the longer it lasts.
Well, my son plopped his money down just for the mere fact that finding something that runs at all for $500 is being fortunate.
Gave the '86 camry (with 202K miles) a cursory look this a.m.
Mechanically-- -needs a new valve cover gasket -needs new plug wires and plugs -it runs rough when it's raining/snowing, but smooths out once it warms up -tires, brakes, battery look good -a/c works (I think, since it blows cold air, but it's cold outside and hard to tell)
I suspect a valve job will be needed. Probably not worth the energy to do a compression check.
Cosmetically-- -it has paint -a little rust around the rear wheel wells -driver's seat sagging -the "material" covering the inside of the roof is cracking (plastic?....vinyl?) -inside carpet is worn through on the driver's side
If it runs, I told him not to put any money into it at all except for the plug wires and plugs. Check and put oil in it at every fuel stop.
If he can get 15K more miles out of it, I told him to consider himself lucky.
To keep the LeSbre, and quit worrying about some little minor things. They happen, as with ALL other older cars with high (Or low) mileage. Why would he go from a much more beautiful (And much more strong) car, to a "beater" that needs about $500 (Or more) in repairs to get it running good? Seems stupid to me, but hey it's his money, so...
...if it's not too hard to get to, is the valve cover gasket. Sure, you can keep putting oil in it and nurse the engine along forever, but that oil's going to continue to run out and get all over the engine. Oil and rubber tend to not like each other, so anything that oil gets onto, such as suspension bushings, engine mounts, belts, hoses, plug wires, etc, will deteriorate much more quickly.
I have a feeling that the leaky valve cover gaskets are what did in the engine mounts on my grandma's LeSabre. Also, if you have an asphalt driveway, all that leaking oil is going to make one hell of a mess, and will also eat at the asphalt. My grandmother's driveway used to be those blue stones, but it was repaved recently, and after that we just took to parking the Buick on the grass! I'm sure the Sierra club is going to love hearing that, though ;-)
...I have a somewhat embarrassing story re the oil leak in my Honda (for the record, an '87 Accord DX 5-speed sedan purchased for $500 ~five months ago). It leaks in a wide line at the front of the engine, probably (I thought) about a quart every week to ten days. That's not the problem, exactly. Me, being lazy, had been relying on the interior oil idiot light to tell me when I need to put more oil in. Oil light comes on, add a quart; since I had been checking the oil 'the right way' fairly frequently before that, I thought that was OK. Well yesterday (Friday the 13th, natch) it started running a bit rough, I gave it a 'look see' and there was barely any oil showing on the dipstick (the one under the hood, not the owner). So I gingerly drove it to the closest place with oil (two blocks) and put three quarts in, after which it drove much better (and none appeared to burn off after, so it was actually at least that low). Close call. Duh, Geoff, it's a sixteen year-old car, don't count on anything. Moral: in an old car, it is imperative to check the fluids, watch your leaks if you can't/don't/won't fix them, etc. My laziness almost cost my engine yesterday!
As an aside, anyone know how much (parts plus labor) a timing belt is for this car, roughly? I don't know when it's been done, but the car has almost 159k and the belt is recommended every 80k, iirc, so it's probably time.
Geoff, the only car I ever had with a timing belt was my uncle's 88 LeBaron, that he sold to us when I got married, and I let her have it (guess you could take that several ways, considering the car!) in the divorce. Unfortunately though, we were still married when it came time to do the timing belt. I think it only cost around $200-250 total. While they were in there, we also had them replace the oil seals (I guess it was the crankshaft seal and the camshaft seal?), and that was part of the total. Your results may vary, but I guess it's a rough point of reference, at least.
Back over the summer, I was renting a room to this little knucklehead that had a Volkswagen Fox. His timing belt started losing its teeth, but he was lucky that it finally picked the curb outside my house to get to the point that it wouldn't start. He got one of those Chilton's repair manuals for the Fox, and, I'm impressed to say, the little twit changed the belt himself! I think the belt itself was under $10.00 (which sounds awfully cheap to me...I wonder if he got a substandard one?) Now it did take him two days to do it, and he ended up with some severely bruised knuckles in the process. I remember there was one part, yanking off some pulley, I think, that he needed my help. He didn't ask for my help putting it back on, so that makes me wonder if he got it back on tight enough? I don't know how hard it really is to put one in, but once I saw this car apart, it really didn't look like that big of a deal. The Fox has a longitudinally-mounted engine, which I thought would make it easy to get to, but that wasn't the case. The front of the engine was so close to the front of the engine bay that he ended up having to pull apart the fascia of the car...otherwise there wasn't enough clearance for the tools he was using. The Accord's transverse-mounted engine might be easier to get to, but I don't know for sure.
As for the oil pressure idiot light, I've learned on various cars (my '80 Malibu, '68 Dart, Grandma's LeSabre) that you often have to get down to less than half the car's oil capacity before the light will come on. And then, often it would only come on during hard acceleration, fast stops, sudden cornering, anything that would make the oil slosh around so the pump couldn't suck it up. I learned fairly early on to check the oil regularly, but with the LeSabre, well it mainly just sat after my grandmother transferred the title to me. We left it over at her house, and my uncle would drive it every once in awhile, naturally without checking the oil first! Then whenever I wanted to drive it, I'd have to check it first and would sometimes have to put 2 or 3 quarts of oil in it! Oh well, I guess that's payback for when I used to drive his cars and return them with an almost empty fuel tank!
It was on my mom's 1993 Plymouth Duster (Darn I miss that car...). As she was coming home from work (At about 4:00AM) it broke several of it's teeth on N I-75 at 70MPH. Luckily, she was just about to get off on her exit. She told me that the car just "died" and it wouldn't run anymore. So, she drifted from the exit, and parked the car in front of a house in a pretty bad neighborhood. Pretty good parking for a car that wouldn't run. She had her cell phone, but she had one of those prepaid phones...and you know how that goes, and a payphone was a couple blocks away, best to stay where you are. SO: She waved her high intensity flashlight beside her car until 4 thug looking guys in a Cadillac Deville came to help her. They let her use one of their Cell Phones to call my dad to come and pick her up. Of course, she called us first, and told us that she was stranded. (I freaked...) My dad dropped her off at home, and we called a tow to come and pick up the car. I cried, as I had really loved that car, it was so depressing to see that Duster sitting there, alone, not running. I was so happy when the Timing Belt was replaced, I wanted to cry again. Then, someone who didn't know how to brake with Disc brakes slammed into my sister when she was driving the next week.
What was the cause of the Timing Break? An oil leak. Turns out as andre1969 mentioned, oil and rubber DO NOT MIX. An oil leak (From that darn 2.5L 4-Banger) was the cause. Wonderful. There were about 10 teeth missing, and the belt itself was very slippery.
So people, get your oil leaks fixed as soon as possible. Never ignore them...
Especially when buying used cars in the lower price ranges, it's important, IMO, to ask very specific questions. Ask if the seller has mechanical records, and what specifically has been replaced (that he/she knows of). That may disqualify the car right there, but if not, keep going. 'How is the interior?' will probably get an answer of 'great', 'fine' or 'good', without really giving you any information. If you ask the condition of all the seats, the headliner, the dashboard and if it has a radio, you're more apt to get specific and at least slightly more accurate answers. It's also not a bad idea (I discovered after looking at old, used Hondas) to ask if the car has had any modifications (as a 33 year-old, I'm not buying a car with tinted windows, a yellow dashboard and a Folger's can exhaust). I've (finally) trained myself to make a detailed list of those questions before calling, which helps somewhat, though there's invariably something else I will forget about. After you ask all the questions and get as many details as the conversation will allow, you can more accurately assess for yourself if the car is even worth looking at (here in Chicago and other metro areas, looking at one car in a far suburb can take up half your day sometimes, so looking at a few roaches can be a real time-waster).
Obviously, don't expect perfection for $1000. There are some of us who can live with rust or dents but insist on mechanical records. Others of us want a nice interior more than anything. Still others want as much flash as possible, while others prefer the least. Figure out what you 'can live with' and go from there.
I have always found that the best source for "beaters" are your friends and acquaintances. Everybody has an elderly aunt or grandparent that is looking to get rid of an old car because they can no longer drive or they feel the need to replace their 12 year old car and can't understand why the dealer is not willing to give them what the car is "worth".
I still say that in Chicagoland, if you want to find a beater, drive in some of the wealthier suburbs in the collar counties. I am seeing a ton of decent looking cars in McHenry and Kane Counties in IL and in Walworth Co. in Wisconsin.
One of the best cars we ever owned was a 89 Civic wagon DX. It had 108,000 miles on it when we bought it and it didn't run. The guy was asking $1000 for it. The timing belt had broke and the guy was clueless. We ended up getting it for $550, put a timing belt on it, a new windshield, and gave it a good bath. We kept the car to 118,000 miles during which time it went to Canada and Ohio and ran like a top. Cold AC, good cruising power, and room for plenty of junk. We gave it to my sister who didn't take very good care of it but it still ran like a top. My boyfriend still regrets getting rid of it.
Kind of a similar story was a 1990 Integra we bought. It had 134,000 miles on it and was sitting in the back of a dealer's lot. It had 3 different size/brands of tires on it, need an exhaust, and it was absolutely filthy (the people lived down a dirt road or something). We bought it for $2000 (this was in 96 and that was CHEAP for an Integra LS). So we bought it, put new tires on it, cleaned it up, put an exhaust on it, had the timing belt done and the car never gave us a single problem. We sold it at 160,000 miles for $3750 and I've heard the guy is still driving the car.
I was talking to a business colleague yesterday and he brought up an idea I swore that I'd never consider, but it does have appeal.
He bought his 18 year old daughter a new '03 Hyundai Elantra GLS that has A/C and power windows/locks. That's about all it has on it. It's a 5-speed. The warranty is 5 years/60,000 miles with roadside assistance thrown in, bumper to bumper and 10 years/100,000 miles for the drivetrain. The kicker is he bought it for $10K. His thinking was she has a car for college and well into her adult life with little in the way of repair fees. Of course, maintenance still isn't free, but there are no worries regarding unseen out-of-pocker repair bills. I have to admit, that has a certain appeal, particularly at that price. Thoughts?
Bored...the LeSabre is in much better shape than the Camry. That's for certain. I didn't interfere with the Camry purchase because I thought this would be the cheapest lesson my son could ever learn about car repairs (and that he will spend a lot to keep the Camry roadworthy).
I cleaned up the LeSabre and put a for sale sign on it in front of parking lot at a busy intersection close to our home yesterday. I already got 3 phone calls about it an am about ready to go out and meet with a prospective buyer today. I'm asking $2,300 for it and would take a flat $2K. I'll split the proceeds with my son.
He was bound and dertermined to make the Camry purchase all on his own and I didn't stand in his way. Any and all repairs are on his dime.
Getting back to the Hyundai, I know that at some point, my son will need a reliable car for work/school transportation. The idea of spending $10K one time instead of several $2K-$3K car purchases over the next 6-7 years appeals.
.... What appeals to you is the warranty and warranties are wonderful ..
I think you would sleep better with a vehicle that has a living, breathing, looong, positive track record like a Prizm, Corolla, Sentra or a Protege' ..
Yep, warranties are wonderful, especially in a vehicle like a Elantra, where there is a real good chance your going to be using it, again and again and again ...
You'd take 2k for the LeSabre? Save it for me, until the summer, and I'll be down there to pick it up...
OK, I may only be kidding, but I was at least half serious. If I had the money, I'd be e-mailing you RIGHT NOW.
So, your son is really set about that Camry, huh? You know what, I would put the LeSabre in storage, and tell him that you sold it. When he comes crying about that Camry and all the repairs, just give him the keys to the LeSabre, and give him a good talking to.
This could also be a good opportunity for him to learn how to work on cars....
Back to my report/project I'm staying up for... I procrastinated, and now I have 5 days to complete it. It's due Friday.
...sorry I didn't get back to ya sooner. Our '88 LeBaron had the 2.2 turbo. It was a fun, quick little car for the time, and got good gas mileage (but needed premium fuel).
The first major thing to go, right around when we had the timing belt done, was some front-end work. The axle shafts and CV joints were bad.
Soon after that, we split up, and everything else that broke on that car was her problem. First, the radiator had to be replaced. Then the a/c compressor died, and the power antenna broke off, around the same time. What really did that car in though was when the head gasket blew. Warped head. She should've junked it right then and there, but didn't. I told her to take it to my mechanic and have him check it out. But noooooooo...why would she listen to her ex husband?
So she and her mother find some shop that puts on a used head for something like $750. After that it's still not running right, so I took a look at it. On top of the engine were all sorts of wires and vacuum hoses that were just sitting there, disconnected, and jumbled all at random. It's probably a miracle the car ran at all! Well, I finally talked her into letting me take it to my mechanic. For $75, he got it running right, and gave us some sound advice...dump the car and don't put another cent into it. Turns out the turbo was shot (I think that's about $1000), and whole engine had just about had it. Compression was just very low on 2 cylinders.
So she ended up giving me the car back, and I sold it for parts a few months later. I think it had about 110,000 miles on it. It was a shame to see the car that far gone though. It still looked good, except for the paint just starting to wear thin in a few places, and the headliner starting to pull loose. But just about everything on that car was shot, except maybe transmission, and even that was leaking!
bored...too late...I sold it yesterday for my asking price...$2,300 to an 18 year old with cash. I almost felt bad about selling it to him since I was ready to negotiate down. HE drove it with me in the passenger seat for about 30 minutes. He gave me $300 to hold it and came back about an hour later with 20, crisp new $100 bills. I didn't let him drive it away becasue the title office wasn't open. We're transfering the title and tags today.
All he had from me was a hand written note stating that he paid me for the car. I don't know how well that would have held up in court, but he was either very trusting or very naive in some of the ways a less than scrupulous person could have kept the car and disappeared with his cash. I asked him what he did for a living. He said that he had saved up the money from his summer grass cutting/landscaping job. That warmed my heart. He said he was tired of driving around in the beat-up, rusty, smoking mid-'80s Ford pick-up.
Terry....you hit the nail on the head. The warranty on the Hyundai does appeal. I don't think the Elantra would be nearly as reliable as a late model Japanese or American branded economy car, but knowing that Hyundai has to fix anything that goes wrong with it for the next 5-10 years certainly is appealing. No more calls from my son stating "Pop, the car is stalled in the busy intersection in front of the Mall...what should I do?". Or, "Pop, there's smoke coming out from under the dash. What should I do?". Of course, I trek out to pick him up and have to wait 2 hours for AAA to come tow it.
Although, I have little faith in Edmunds reviews, they find the Elantra to be the best "small economy car". $10,000 for a new car with A/C and power windows/locks, dual airbags certainly gets my frugal attention. Rumor has it that Hyundai has upped the quality of their cars. The ones I saw looked pretty good, but that doesn't tell anything about long term reliability. It's got to be better than a Cavalier (which costs about $2K more with less equipment). Right?
I appreciate what you're saying, but I know that this Camry is going to take some serious dollars to keep it on the road for any substantial legnth of time. Plus, I know I'm the one that's going to get the phone call when the inevitable call comes stating that this or that component has quit working on the Camry.
While I know the reputation of Toyotas, some things just don't/won't last forever. This Camry is trully gasping it's last breaths.
Before I was old enough to drive, I really had my eye set on this old '53 DeSoto Firedome that my Granddad had. He ended up selling the thing a few months before I got my learner's permit. I was mad, but he said he did it because he didn't want me having the car and calling him to fix it every time it broke. Well, I ended up getting my Mom's old '80 Malibu instead, but guess who got called to fix it, every time it broke?
Abtseller - You'd take a 200k mile, leaking, smoking, beater Camry on a cross country trip over a brand new Elantra with a warranty and roadside assistance? I think if you were actually put in that position you might change your mind. I don't consider myself a "defender of the Hyundai faith" by any means, but I now have 30k on a 2001 Santa Fe and it's every bit as tight as the day I drove it off the lot.
Terry - yeah, the Sentra, Protege, Corolla, Prizm are all good cars, but all for quite a bit more money than the Elantra. If I were buying a commuter car for myself I'd probably spring for a Pro ES, but for a kid going off to college a leftover 2002 Elantra for around 10k seems ideal. C&D didn't put it 2nd in a group of 11 small cars (ahead of the new Corolla!) for nothing, and Edmunds raved about their long term tester. I test drove a strippo Elantra once, and I liked it better than my sister's much more expensive Sentra SE. They really are pretty nice cars for the money, as long as you don't plan on selling it anytime soon.
wheezing or smoking. Its got a valve cover gasket leak and needs plugs and wires, which should fix the rough idle problem when wet/ cold.
You're talking about spending $500 on a car, vs. $10,000. I don't know about you, but when I was in school, $9500 was a lot of money. And, if you've been paying attention, you will have heard our resident auction expert telling us about all the DOA Hyundais, Kias, etc, that are 2 years old at the auctions. Yes, true stories of 1 and 2 year old cars, by the truckload, dead at the auctions.
I'd be willing to bet that the crash test results are at least as good on the '86 Camry as the Elantra.
That's exactly what I'm struggling with...$500 purchase price for the '86 Camry plus another $500-$750, initially (I also think the power steering pump is dying) to make the thing last at least for a short while. Or spend $10K now in the hope that it will be the last expenditure on a car for the next 6-7 years?
As you and I both know, in all fairness, my son can expect pretty regular repair bills for this car. I'd like to believe he could get another 25K-30K miles out of it with nothing major going bad. At best, odds are 50-50 that will be the case, however.
The real question, as I see it, is do I pony up $10K for a new car with tons of warranty that is safer (from what I understand, the Elantra also comes with side airbags in addition to the front airbags), will have no unforeseen repair bills, and will get better MPG and more reliable than the '86 Camry? Or, do I let him invest a couple thousand dollars every year or so for a "beater" for the next 4-5 years?
There's also the insurance expense to think about. Certainly insurance on the Camry is cheaper than getting full coverage on a new car.
The $10K I would loan him to make such a purchase certainly isn't making me much money in the markets or via savings. Or, I could sign for a 0% Hyundai loan that he would have to pay.
Of course, I voiced this option within ear shot of my son. Obviously, he's all for the new car option.
It's probably a wash financially, whichever way it goes. It would be more of a convenience/peace-of-mind factor for me personally, if he was in something with a long term warranty (take him through college and beyond).
have something that I could leave anywhere, unlocked, something that I wouldn't have to worry about door dings, minor parking lot encounters, etc. with.
The insurance will be tons cheaper and there will probably be fewer repairs than you think. However, with the '86 being the older body style, I'd probably look for a '92-'93 with half the miles for around $2500-3000. Same carefree ownership experience for not that much more money, but it will have a d/s airbag, and it will probably be a safer/ better car than the Elantra.
as for roadside assistance, get AAA and a cel phone.
I was just thinking back when I was younger, and thinking about getting a new car. My Mom made me get insurance in my own name, that way if I got into an accident she couldn't get sued. Well, in 1987, my liability-only insurance was $1361. It dropped to $1288 the next year, and around $1090 the third. Well, the third year, I got the new (or newer) car urge. I remember looking at a new Ford Probe, and when I called the insurance company, well, that $1090 would've jumped to about $3200! And this was just for a cheap little 4-cyl automatic car that looked sporty! As I recall, an '86 Monte Carlo SS or Camaro would've also done similar damage to my bank account at the time.
It's one thing to not have to worry about repair bills with a new car, but insurance is one thing you have to consider. That new Elantra (or any new car) may jack him up another $100-150 a month in insurance. That, in addition to a new car payment, could pay for a lot of repairs!
You sold it that easy? Wow...amazing. Here, in MI, it's a little easier...The owner of the vehicle has to have the title in hand. Buyer gives the money, and owner signs the title over (And takes license plate). Buyer takes the title to the "Secretary of State" to re-register it in the buyer's name, and he or she recieves a new plate. The buyer can drive the car without a license plate. He or she has to either be heading home, or the SOS. No exceptions. Mileage is never exempt in MI (Not to my knowledge) so the mileage HAS to be correct on the title.
Speaking of easy sales...a 1995 Dodge Spirit was sitting on a very popular road. No dings, no body damage, just an overall clean car. The owner was asking $1,200 and he commented that it needed nothing. Well, I looked over in the empty Rallys parking lot today, and lo and behold, it was GONE!
And, while I'm no major defender of the "Korean Car", I would buy one. And again, and again. That Sportage has exceeded my expectations very well. 40k Miles, and not a single problem. Our old Duster could NEVER do that! It was always in the shop for something, but still, a good car. As for the Sportage, it's a very good truck, seems like it can carry anything (People and Cargo), and has been very reliable. I'll take a Korean car over any Japanese car anyday.
that they ALL break. Domestic, Japanese, Korean, German, Italian, or Yugoslavian. When I was in college (only 4-5 years ago, FWIW), I had a few opportunities to use my shadetree mechanic skills to try and gain favor with members of the fairer sex - with little success, I might add. Also helped out plenty of male buds with car problems. One girl had an alternator go out on her early '90s Stanza. Another had an ignition cylinder go bad on her late '80s Camry. Another went in for a tuneup, and had it overheat on the way home - the crooked independant shop had incorrectly installed the radiator cap, and while I was looking at that I discovered that they had also "forgotten" to change the serpentine belt - although they didn't forget to charge for it!
My point? All these kids had one thing in common - they had a broken car 100-500-1000 miles away from home, not much cash, and no way to fix it other than taking it to their friendly neigborhood mechanic who might not be exactly honest and forthright. No matter that these weren't horrendous failures, the car wouldn't go, and they couldn't get home / to work / to class. I'd much rather have them in a nice cheap low mileage Elantra or Sonata with some life left in it and a nice warranty and roadside assistance package than a "beater", even if it is a reliable Toyota / Nissan / Mazda. Oh, and you can usually keep college aged kids listed under Dad's insurance policy, so that's not all that bad.
I'm in a position now that I can afford to have an old car as my daily driver (my '87 Alfa) - I have a garage, tools, some mechanical knowhow and another car for parts running and emergencies. Most college kids have few if any of these luxuries.
The warranty actually means something. If the dealership cannot fix your car with anymore success than the local indy mechanic, the warranty is worthless.
I'll let zeuslewis chime in now on the quality levels of service offered by many new car dealerships.
A co-worker bought a new Elantra and got the shock of his life when he was quoted insurance. In the Wash.D.C. area, a new Elantra costs more to insure than a new C-class Mercedes, according to an article in Kiplingers. We compared policies & his 10K Elantra costs about twice as much to insure as my new Chevy Silverado Z-71. And I've got more coverage and a longer commute! Now he's got an addition to the family, needs a minivan, and finds that a 2 year old Elantra has almost no trade value. With the outrageous insurance and the steep depreciation, that's no economy car!
On my last purchase, I considered a Hyundai Accent for my 20 mile RT commute is suburban Chicago. By the way, I have recently driven both for a 5 hour drive and the Accent was a more comfortable seat than the Camry which is about the most uncomfortable seat (at least the 2002 model was).
I figured that for $9k and the warranty, that it was a good deal.
However, I ended up buying a used Oldsmobile instead as the nearest Hyundai dealership was 35-40 miles away.
I think that it is a good approach for a college student. Of course, I have to question why most students really need a vehicle on campus.
Though I have to admit I was somewhat mortified when my dad bought one, he has a '00 or '01 Accent as his daily driver. He's a solar energy consultant, and drives all around the midwest, typically logging about 50k miles a year, so I imagine his car now has 50-80k, and it's been fine. Not the place I'd wanna spend my time, but whatever. Strange my parents aren't married any more, my dad likes Escorts and Hyundais, mom likes Porsches and Mercedes, go figure.
While no one needs a car on campus their first couple of years, if my son gets a job while on campus (which I'm heartily encouraging him to do), then the university will let him have one.
He'll also need a car over the working summer months.
If the car has road side assistance (which the Hyndai does), then I don't care how many times the thing has to be towed in for warranty service.
My son is almost 17. He's been a good student and a hard worker. I'm biased, but proud of him.
The car issue has become more of a "discussion point" recently given his additional work hours and extra currucular school activities. This is more a convenience for me than anything else. My son wouldn't mind me acting as his chaufer 75% of the time (the other 25% he's with his girlfriend and would rather I make myself scarce).
Still debating the Hyundai with myself. While my son would love to have a new car, he'll accept anything with 4 wheels that runs.
I'm also still having a hard time understanding how any 10-15 year old car would be preferable to a new car with the kind of warranty the Hyundai has, brand loyalties notwithstanding.
His insurance on the current '86 Camry is about $900/year. I'm certain that it would double on the Hyundai (which has a good safety rating). Figuring I finance him (or sign for a 0% Hyundai loan) for $10K, the payments would be ~$170/mo for 5 years. Insurance would add an additional $180/mo. That's $350/mo for the new Hyundai.
Looking at the Toyota...I figure $700 a year in repairs, or ~$60/mo. Insurance is $75/mo for a total outlay of $135/mo. Based on those figures alone, the vote goes for the Camry. Throw in an extra $2K per year to get another car and the math becomes fuzzier, if the $2K car lasts a year. Believe me, the Camry won't last a year. It's very rare any car from any manufacturer lasts more than 200K. I've heard of all the stories of the 300K, 400K, 500K mile cars, but those are all the exceptions, not the rule.
...it might actually be more than double on a Hyundai. When you just have liability insurance, your insurance will be the same no matter what the car. It could be a beat-up '73 Electra or a brand-new Ferrari. Once you start factoring in full coverage though, they look as car sizes and claim rates. A Hyundai might score well in crash testing, but out in the real world, where they often get hit and smeared by much bigger things than another Hyundai (which is all the crash tests simulate, hitting another equal-sized car). If the insurance company views the car as too much of a risk, they're going to slap on a surcharge, or might not insure it at all.
For example, my roommate has a 1998 Chevy Tracker. I told him to call my agent, because I have a pretty good rate with them ($570 a year for an '00 Intrepid, and all the liability-only cars I want to add for about $260 a year each). Well, with a Tracker, they wouldn't even touch him. Too dangerous, they say. Nevermind that the Tracker actually does okay (but not stellar) in crash testing.
Here's a good alternative for you. Since he's already bought the Camry, just let him drive it until it dies and then get something else. Just let it be known that the car will never have more than another (enter your figure here, say $500) spent on it before its replaced.
I've seen, sat in, driven 300K mile cars, some even domestic, and its not the horror story that you're saying it is.
My current daily driver just turned 192,000. Its a little 5speed Honda. In the past six months, I've bought a starter (got tired of parking on a hill) and a gallon of de-icer, and I've had the oil changed. That's it. Sorry to be so boring.
Now, lets have some fun with this. If you do decide to buy a Hyundai for $10,000, why wouldn't you buy a new Civic or Corolla for $13,000? There's no way you can justify the extra $3000, IMHO, when you consider things like reliability and resale value.
You could get a certified preowned version of either car with extended warranties built in for less than the cost of a new Hyundai, and you wouldn't have all your sons friends giving him grief.
As I've said, I'm pretty handy with a ratchet, but it gets to be a serious pain when you've got work and homework and finals and girlfriends all vying for your time and attention, and all of a sudden the car conks out and you need to spend an afternoon diagnosing / running for parts / swearing at the car. I drove my Z for a couple of months with a bad starter solenoid because I didn't have time to fix it. I'd just try and park on a hill so I could pop the clutch if needed. When it finally went south for good I had to spend a couple very cold hours out on the street swapping it out. I don't know how far from home Graphicguy's kid plans on going to school, but it sounds like the kids a go-getter even in high school so an unreliable old car is likely to cramp his style.
Although I loved my Z (finally sold it last spring... sniff...) I decided that as soon as I got a decent job I was getting something new with a warranty - I simply didn't have time to be a full time student, employee, AND mechanic.
As someone who has fairly recently been in your son's shoes I can say it would have made things a lot easier if I had a nice reliable late model car with a warranty through school. It's not a bad idea to shop around and drive a leftover 2002 Prizm / Corolla / Sentra / Protege and yes, Elantra and maybe swing a deal with the kid.
Comments
GM's RWD intermediates from '78-88 were also pretty good, being based on the B-bodies, but in a much more nimble size. The '78-83 Malibu is about the size of a modern Accord or Camry. The main downside is that the rear windows in 4-door models are stationary, so a working air conditioner is almost mandatory in hotter climates!
If you're going to get an old car with lots of power options, GM is the way to go. While all that power stuff like seats, mirrors, windows, locks, antennas, etc, will all fail eventually, GM's stuff just seems to hold up better. My mechanic said that Fords have the highest failure rate for power windows, with Chrysler somewhere in between.
I'm just flailing while being pulled ever closer to that maelstrom that is the Toyota Sienna minivan...
As far as beater GMs are concerned, I agree... I had an '83 Malibu wagon for quite awhile; sold it to trade "up" to an '87 Audi 4000 in early '97. The 4000 is long gone, my Malibu is still running around town; see it occasionally. AC was cold, the electronic carb was actually working, and the engine computer could correctly diagnose faulty sensors (it does not matter how I know).
-Mathias
I heard about this. GM said something about there not being enough space in the door because it was so small. If that was true, then why today are windows going alll the way down these days??? Just lazy.
Was the B-Body the Caprice? Come to think about it, it wasn't really that big....so.......maybe I could handle it. But it's hard to find one in good driveable condition.
GM also claimed that having a stationary rear window and a flip-out vent window in back actually gave better airflow than a roll-down window. What it really gave though, was a savings of a few bucks per car, and that's what really counts. Back then though, GM was really pushing to cut weight anywhere they could in the interests of fuel economy. Prior to downsizing, GM's Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) was the worst of the Big Three. It's not that their cars, model-for-model, necessarily got worse mileage than Ford or Mopar counterparts. GM simply relied much more on larger cars than Ford or Chrysler, which were just about held up by models like the Pinto, Granada, Maverick, Duster, Dart, Valiant, etc.
As for whether a rear window can go down all the way or not, it just depends on the design. Cars like the '78 Malibu had enormous glass area, probably moreso than many cars today. Most cars today with rear windows that do roll all the way down use a stationary quarter window as a spacer, and the roll-down window is fairly small, in relation to the door.
As for my own experience, I've had 3 GM intermediates from that era...an '80 Malibu 229, an '82 Cutlass Supreme 231, and an '86 Monte Carlo 305. They all got about the same mileage...15-16 around town and lower 20's on the highway. The Monte had a 4-speed automatic, which made up for the fact it was a bigger engine than the other two. My family also has an '85 LeSabre with a 307. When I drive it, it gets around 14-15 around town, although I've gotten into the lower 20's out of it.
While I don't particularly like the idea of spending money on a car with that kind of mileage, it's his money. It runs, so I guess $500 for anything that runs makes it a good purchase. What I'm worried about are the maintenance costs on something with that kind of mileage. I'd rather him save more money and buy something that's a bit less used.
Anyone have any input as to what to look for, $ wise that he may have to pay to keep this beast on the road?
I'll open this up even further regarding good/cheap $1,000-$2,000 "beaters"?
For $1K-$2K, I doubt you're going to find anything much better, and you'll be going in blindly, since you probably wil be dealing with a stranger.
With that kind of budget limitation, IMHO I'd go with the Camry, unless you know that it was truly abused. Then again, if it's run this long, someone must have taken decent care of it.....
I'd say give it a good check-over, make sure all the fluids look decent, check under the hood for signs of anything leaking, drive it around to see if the engine/tranny act up, brakes make any evil noises, etc.
Then, if the car seems like something that might be worthy, take it to a mechanic you trust and have them check it out and put it through an inspection.
I've had a few high-mileage cars (My '68 Dart now has 338,000 miles on it), and have had pretty good luck with them, for the most part. On a cost-per-mile basis, I figured out that it's run me around 10 cents per mile, + gas and insurance. Just for comparison, my '79 Newport ran about 13 cents a mile, my '89 Gran Fury about 16 cents a mile, and my '00 Intrepid, about 23 cents a mile.
In addition to the engine and tranny, I'd definitely look at the suspension. That's probably the next most expensive thing that can go wrong. Well, there's a/c, but that's not really a necessity with a $500 car!
Also, have a good look under the hood of that car, and try to estimate how easy it will be to work on. Stuff like belts and hoses, spark plugs, the air filter, battery, alternator, etc. Does it look like something you and your son could work on together, or would you have to constantly be depending on a repair shop to keep it running?
Kids want their cars but the things are money pits.
If he gets the Camry he will need to respect it's age and drive it accordingly. It could have another good 50,000 or miles in it.
I owned it from 96-99 paid 1000 for it, and put almost 50k miles on it. In this time the repairs were:
All belts changed(timing included) cost: 100.00
New Tires(early 99) cost: 150.00
New battery and starter cost: 150.00
New muffler cost: 45.00
These were all the unanticipated things I changed except the tires. The battery, left my lights on once to many, muffler was rusted out when I got it, starter died in 98. Belts were changed in 98 b/c timing belt snapped thank goodness for noninterference motors. Aside from that, all normal maintenance including one tune-up, oil changes, brake pad change, etc.
Oh yeah, changed out the front shocks in 97 cost me about 100.00 for both fronts.
The biggest heartache that I had was that since it was an LE, it had power windows and locks. Well the switches had long since given up so I mustered all the good parts on all the doors and was able to use both front windows for a while, then only the drivers window went up and down. In hawaii, that sucks! At least the A/C kept going until the very end!...
The end of the car is still a mystery. I think I had a clogged heater core or something, because one day, the temp guage just started hauling for the H, and nothing helped(even turning on heater, and stopping) just idling would overheat the engine at that point. very strange... well I overheated it too badly that time(among other problems so just tried to drive it home... letting the engine shut itself down is bad) The headgasket went about .25 mi from my house, and then the timing belt melted. It was towed the last 1/8 mi and a junk yard towed it away for free. But it went about 8 miles overheated... =o)
This was replaced by a 94 Corolla for 4g's that now has 150k miles and still going.
Here's what it needed:
-new front brake pads and rotors
-rear brake adjust
-new center link
-new idler arm
-engine mounts
-valve cover gaskets
-belts
-tuneup
-tranny service
-exhaust work (hole in the catalytic converter)
-belts & hoses
The estimate for all this stuff was around $1200-1300. We had the first four items done, for about $600, and were going to wait on the rest. My uncle was planning on driving this car to work, so he wouldn't be racking up so many miles on his truck, which just hit 90,000 miles and almost paid off. He ended up getting a brand-new Corolla though, about a week after my grandmother put $600 into the car. She was mad, but in the long run my uncle did the right thing. At the time he was driving about 90 miles a day, but he got relocated and it's now more like 130. I'm sure just the fuel savings alone would've been pretty impressive.
The Buick also needed 4 new tires, so figure about another $200+ there, depending on the quality of the tire. The last straw was when the brakes went out. At that point we decided to not put any more money or effort into the car. Now a lot of what it needed was just maintenance stuff...any car, even a new one, will need stuff like belts, hoses, brakes, tuneups, tranny services, etc, after awhile.
I don't know how Japanese cars age, but with domestic ones I think I'd almost trust one that's 15 or 20 years old before I'd trust one from the late '80's/early '90's. For the most part they were simpler, and when they did break they were cheaper to fix. In the rare even that an old Chrysler Torqueflite does fail, you could probably get another used one thrown in for a few hundred bucks. When I bought my '89 Gran Fury, I bought it from a dealership that fixes up old police cars. I remember he told me that if the tranny went, he could throw in another used one for around $300. If the 318 blew, that'd be about $1,000. You really can't do that with an early '90's Chrysler though. If your 4-speed tranny is fried, well, the chances are the ones in the junkyard aren't going to be any better, and you're looking at around $2500+ for a rebuild. In contrast, a Torqueflite in these parts is only around $800 for a rebuild.
Terry.
Save about $100/ month and it will save a lot of emotional hassle.
But then the next year, 1988, I think I spent all of $95.00 on the car. It wouldn't start one night when I was leaving work, so I had it towed home, and Granddad looked at it the next day (we lived right across the street from them back then). Turns out the starter was shot. I remember between the starter and the tow, it was about $95.00.
In 1989, the heater core went out in February, and the water pump that summer. I also rear-ended someone that summer, and got a front-end clip from an identically-colored 1981 Malibu for $200. That September, I found a '69 Dart GT that I just had to have, and about 2 months later, the Malibu wouldn't pass the emissions test. Granddad fooled around with it, and second time around it did worse! That's when I took it off the road, started driving the Dart, and sold the Malibu a few months later.
All in all, it wasn't a bad car, and I guess was indicative of how sporadic repairs can be. One year catastrophe, the next year almost nothing, and then the next year somewhere in the middle.
Still, I had that car about 3 years, and probably put $3,000 max into it (counting the repairs, the new front end clip, a stereo and big speakers, and a few things I probably forgot about). I sold it for $500, which wasn't bad considering it had been banged up a bit and wouldn't pass the emissions test. So the net effect was that it was basically costing me about $70 a month + gas + insurance.
Gave the '86 camry (with 202K miles) a cursory look this a.m.
Mechanically--
-needs a new valve cover gasket
-needs new plug wires and plugs
-it runs rough when it's raining/snowing, but smooths out once it warms up
-tires, brakes, battery look good
-a/c works (I think, since it blows cold air, but it's cold outside and hard to tell)
I suspect a valve job will be needed. Probably not worth the energy to do a compression check.
Cosmetically--
-it has paint
-a little rust around the rear wheel wells
-driver's seat sagging
-the "material" covering the inside of the roof is cracking (plastic?....vinyl?)
-inside carpet is worn through on the driver's side
If it runs, I told him not to put any money into it at all except for the plug wires and plugs. Check and put oil in it at every fuel stop.
If he can get 15K more miles out of it, I told him to consider himself lucky.
I have a feeling that the leaky valve cover gaskets are what did in the engine mounts on my grandma's LeSabre. Also, if you have an asphalt driveway, all that leaking oil is going to make one hell of a mess, and will also eat at the asphalt. My grandmother's driveway used to be those blue stones, but it was repaved recently, and after that we just took to parking the Buick on the grass! I'm sure the Sierra club is going to love hearing that, though ;-)
As an aside, anyone know how much (parts plus labor) a timing belt is for this car, roughly? I don't know when it's been done, but the car has almost 159k and the belt is recommended every 80k, iirc, so it's probably time.
Back over the summer, I was renting a room to this little knucklehead that had a Volkswagen Fox. His timing belt started losing its teeth, but he was lucky that it finally picked the curb outside my house to get to the point that it wouldn't start. He got one of those Chilton's repair manuals for the Fox, and, I'm impressed to say, the little twit changed the belt himself! I think the belt itself was under $10.00 (which sounds awfully cheap to me...I wonder if he got a substandard one?) Now it did take him two days to do it, and he ended up with some severely bruised knuckles in the process. I remember there was one part, yanking off some pulley, I think, that he needed my help. He didn't ask for my help putting it back on, so that makes me wonder if he got it back on tight enough? I don't know how hard it really is to put one in, but once I saw this car apart, it really didn't look like that big of a deal. The Fox has a longitudinally-mounted engine, which I thought would make it easy to get to, but that wasn't the case. The front of the engine was so close to the front of the engine bay that he ended up having to pull apart the fascia of the car...otherwise there wasn't enough clearance for the tools he was using. The Accord's transverse-mounted engine might be easier to get to, but I don't know for sure.
As for the oil pressure idiot light, I've learned on various cars (my '80 Malibu, '68 Dart, Grandma's LeSabre) that you often have to get down to less than half the car's oil capacity before the light will come on. And then, often it would only come on during hard acceleration, fast stops, sudden cornering, anything that would make the oil slosh around so the pump couldn't suck it up. I learned fairly early on to check the oil regularly, but with the LeSabre, well it mainly just sat after my grandmother transferred the title to me. We left it over at her house, and my uncle would drive it every once in awhile, naturally without checking the oil first! Then whenever I wanted to drive it, I'd have to check it first and would sometimes have to put 2 or 3 quarts of oil in it! Oh well, I guess that's payback for when I used to drive his cars and return them with an almost empty fuel tank!
What was the cause of the Timing Break? An oil leak. Turns out as andre1969 mentioned, oil and rubber DO NOT MIX. An oil leak (From that darn 2.5L 4-Banger) was the cause. Wonderful. There were about 10 teeth missing, and the belt itself was very slippery.
So people, get your oil leaks fixed as soon as possible. Never ignore them...
Hey, what engine did that LeBaron have?
Obviously, don't expect perfection for $1000. There are some of us who can live with rust or dents but insist on mechanical records. Others of us want a nice interior more than anything. Still others want as much flash as possible, while others prefer the least. Figure out what you 'can live with' and go from there.
I still say that in Chicagoland, if you want to find a beater, drive in some of the wealthier suburbs in the collar counties. I am seeing a ton of decent looking cars in McHenry and Kane Counties in IL and in Walworth Co. in Wisconsin.
Kind of a similar story was a 1990 Integra we bought. It had 134,000 miles on it and was sitting in the back of a dealer's lot. It had 3 different size/brands of tires on it, need an exhaust, and it was absolutely filthy (the people lived down a dirt road or something). We bought it for $2000 (this was in 96 and that was CHEAP for an Integra LS). So we bought it, put new tires on it, cleaned it up, put an exhaust on it, had the timing belt done and the car never gave us a single problem. We sold it at 160,000 miles for $3750 and I've heard the guy is still driving the car.
He bought his 18 year old daughter a new '03 Hyundai Elantra GLS that has A/C and power windows/locks. That's about all it has on it. It's a 5-speed. The warranty is 5 years/60,000 miles with roadside assistance thrown in, bumper to bumper and 10 years/100,000 miles for the drivetrain. The kicker is he bought it for $10K. His thinking was she has a car for college and well into her adult life with little in the way of repair fees. Of course, maintenance still isn't free, but there are no worries regarding unseen out-of-pocker repair bills. I have to admit, that has a certain appeal, particularly at that price. Thoughts?
Bored...the LeSabre is in much better shape than the Camry. That's for certain. I didn't interfere with the Camry purchase because I thought this would be the cheapest lesson my son could ever learn about car repairs (and that he will spend a lot to keep the Camry roadworthy).
I cleaned up the LeSabre and put a for sale sign on it in front of parking lot at a busy intersection close to our home yesterday. I already got 3 phone calls about it an am about ready to go out and meet with a prospective buyer today. I'm asking $2,300 for it and would take a flat $2K. I'll split the proceeds with my son.
He was bound and dertermined to make the Camry purchase all on his own and I didn't stand in his way. Any and all repairs are on his dime.
Getting back to the Hyundai, I know that at some point, my son will need a reliable car for work/school transportation. The idea of spending $10K one time instead of several $2K-$3K car purchases over the next 6-7 years appeals.
I think you would sleep better with a vehicle that has a living, breathing, looong, positive track record like a Prizm, Corolla, Sentra or a Protege' ..
Yep, warranties are wonderful, especially in a vehicle like a Elantra, where there is a real good chance your going to be using it, again and again and again ...
Terry.
OK, I may only be kidding, but I was at least half serious. If I had the money, I'd be e-mailing you RIGHT NOW.
So, your son is really set about that Camry, huh? You know what, I would put the LeSabre in storage, and tell him that you sold it. When he comes crying about that Camry and all the repairs, just give him the keys to the LeSabre, and give him a good talking to.
This could also be a good opportunity for him to learn how to work on cars....
Back to my report/project I'm staying up for... I procrastinated, and now I have 5 days to complete it. It's due Friday.
The first major thing to go, right around when we had the timing belt done, was some front-end work. The axle shafts and CV joints were bad.
Soon after that, we split up, and everything else that broke on that car was her problem. First, the radiator had to be replaced. Then the a/c compressor died, and the power antenna broke off, around the same time. What really did that car in though was when the head gasket blew. Warped head. She should've junked it right then and there, but didn't. I told her to take it to my mechanic and have him check it out. But noooooooo...why would she listen to her ex husband?
So she and her mother find some shop that puts on a used head for something like $750. After that it's still not running right, so I took a look at it. On top of the engine were all sorts of wires and vacuum hoses that were just sitting there, disconnected, and jumbled all at random. It's probably a miracle the car ran at all! Well, I finally talked her into letting me take it to my mechanic. For $75, he got it running right, and gave us some sound advice...dump the car and don't put another cent into it. Turns out the turbo was shot (I think that's about $1000), and whole engine had just about had it. Compression was just very low on 2 cylinders.
So she ended up giving me the car back, and I sold it for parts a few months later. I think it had about 110,000 miles on it. It was a shame to see the car that far gone though. It still looked good, except for the paint just starting to wear thin in a few places, and the headliner starting to pull loose. But just about everything on that car was shot, except maybe transmission, and even that was leaking!
All he had from me was a hand written note stating that he paid me for the car. I don't know how well that would have held up in court, but he was either very trusting or very naive in some of the ways a less than scrupulous person could have kept the car and disappeared with his cash. I asked him what he did for a living. He said that he had saved up the money from his summer grass cutting/landscaping job. That warmed my heart. He said he was tired of driving around in the beat-up, rusty, smoking mid-'80s Ford pick-up.
Terry....you hit the nail on the head. The warranty on the Hyundai does appeal. I don't think the Elantra would be nearly as reliable as a late model Japanese or American branded economy car, but knowing that Hyundai has to fix anything that goes wrong with it for the next 5-10 years certainly is appealing. No more calls from my son stating "Pop, the car is stalled in the busy intersection in front of the Mall...what should I do?". Or, "Pop, there's smoke coming out from under the dash. What should I do?". Of course, I trek out to pick him up and have to wait 2 hours for AAA to come tow it.
Although, I have little faith in Edmunds reviews, they find the Elantra to be the best "small economy car". $10,000 for a new car with A/C and power windows/locks, dual airbags certainly gets my frugal attention. Rumor has it that Hyundai has upped the quality of their cars. The ones I saw looked pretty good, but that doesn't tell anything about long term reliability. It's got to be better than a Cavalier (which costs about $2K more with less equipment). Right?
Ed
While I know the reputation of Toyotas, some things just don't/won't last forever. This Camry is trully gasping it's last breaths.
Terry - yeah, the Sentra, Protege, Corolla, Prizm are all good cars, but all for quite a bit more money than the Elantra. If I were buying a commuter car for myself I'd probably spring for a Pro ES, but for a kid going off to college a leftover 2002 Elantra for around 10k seems ideal. C&D didn't put it 2nd in a group of 11 small cars (ahead of the new Corolla!) for nothing, and Edmunds raved about their long term tester. I test drove a strippo Elantra once, and I liked it better than my sister's much more expensive Sentra SE. They really are pretty nice cars for the money, as long as you don't plan on selling it anytime soon.
-Jason
You're talking about spending $500 on a car, vs. $10,000. I don't know about you, but when I was in school, $9500 was a lot of money. And, if you've been paying attention, you will have heard our resident auction expert telling us about all the DOA Hyundais, Kias, etc, that are 2 years old at the auctions. Yes, true stories of 1 and 2 year old cars, by the truckload, dead at the auctions.
I'd be willing to bet that the crash test results are at least as good on the '86 Camry as the Elantra.
Ok, maybe that is a stretch, but not much.
Ed
As you and I both know, in all fairness, my son can expect pretty regular repair bills for this car. I'd like to believe he could get another 25K-30K miles out of it with nothing major going bad. At best, odds are 50-50 that will be the case, however.
The real question, as I see it, is do I pony up $10K for a new car with tons of warranty that is safer (from what I understand, the Elantra also comes with side airbags in addition to the front airbags), will have no unforeseen repair bills, and will get better MPG and more reliable than the '86 Camry? Or, do I let him invest a couple thousand dollars every year or so for a "beater" for the next 4-5 years?
There's also the insurance expense to think about. Certainly insurance on the Camry is cheaper than getting full coverage on a new car.
The $10K I would loan him to make such a purchase certainly isn't making me much money in the markets or via savings. Or, I could sign for a 0% Hyundai loan that he would have to pay.
Of course, I voiced this option within ear shot of my son. Obviously, he's all for the new car option.
It's probably a wash financially, whichever way it goes. It would be more of a convenience/peace-of-mind factor for me personally, if he was in something with a long term warranty (take him through college and beyond).
The insurance will be tons cheaper and there will probably be fewer repairs than you think. However, with the '86 being the older body style, I'd probably look for a '92-'93 with half the miles for around $2500-3000. Same carefree ownership experience for not that much more money, but it will have a d/s airbag, and it will probably be a safer/ better car than the Elantra.
as for roadside assistance, get AAA and a cel phone.
Ed
It's one thing to not have to worry about repair bills with a new car, but insurance is one thing you have to consider. That new Elantra (or any new car) may jack him up another $100-150 a month in insurance. That, in addition to a new car payment, could pay for a lot of repairs!
Speaking of easy sales...a 1995 Dodge Spirit was sitting on a very popular road. No dings, no body damage, just an overall clean car. The owner was asking $1,200 and he commented that it needed nothing. Well, I looked over in the empty Rallys parking lot today, and lo and behold, it was GONE!
And, while I'm no major defender of the "Korean Car", I would buy one. And again, and again. That Sportage has exceeded my expectations very well. 40k Miles, and not a single problem. Our old Duster could NEVER do that! It was always in the shop for something, but still, a good car. As for the Sportage, it's a very good truck, seems like it can carry anything (People and Cargo), and has been very reliable. I'll take a Korean car over any Japanese car anyday.
I just hate the new Accent though.
My point? All these kids had one thing in common - they had a broken car 100-500-1000 miles away from home, not much cash, and no way to fix it other than taking it to their friendly neigborhood mechanic who might not be exactly honest and forthright. No matter that these weren't horrendous failures, the car wouldn't go, and they couldn't get home / to work / to class. I'd much rather have them in a nice cheap low mileage Elantra or Sonata with some life left in it and a nice warranty and roadside assistance package than a "beater", even if it is a reliable Toyota / Nissan / Mazda. Oh, and you can usually keep college aged kids listed under Dad's insurance policy, so that's not all that bad.
I'm in a position now that I can afford to have an old car as my daily driver (my '87 Alfa) - I have a garage, tools, some mechanical knowhow and another car for parts running and emergencies. Most college kids have few if any of these luxuries.
-Jason
I'll let zeuslewis chime in now on the quality levels of service offered by many new car dealerships.
FWIW,
TB
I figured that for $9k and the warranty, that it was a good deal.
However, I ended up buying a used Oldsmobile instead as the nearest Hyundai dealership was 35-40 miles away.
I think that it is a good approach for a college student. Of course, I have to question why most students really need a vehicle on campus.
He'll also need a car over the working summer months.
If the car has road side assistance (which the Hyndai does), then I don't care how many times the thing has to be towed in for warranty service.
My son is almost 17. He's been a good student and a hard worker. I'm biased, but proud of him.
The car issue has become more of a "discussion point" recently given his additional work hours and extra currucular school activities. This is more a convenience for me than anything else. My son wouldn't mind me acting as his chaufer 75% of the time (the other 25% he's with his girlfriend and would rather I make myself scarce).
Still debating the Hyundai with myself. While my son would love to have a new car, he'll accept anything with 4 wheels that runs.
I'm also still having a hard time understanding how any 10-15 year old car would be preferable to a new car with the kind of warranty the Hyundai has, brand loyalties notwithstanding.
His insurance on the current '86 Camry is about $900/year. I'm certain that it would double on the Hyundai (which has a good safety rating). Figuring I finance him (or sign for a 0% Hyundai loan) for $10K, the payments would be ~$170/mo for 5 years. Insurance would add an additional $180/mo. That's $350/mo for the new Hyundai.
Looking at the Toyota...I figure $700 a year in repairs, or ~$60/mo. Insurance is $75/mo for a total outlay of $135/mo. Based on those figures alone, the vote goes for the Camry. Throw in an extra $2K per year to get another car and the math becomes fuzzier, if the $2K car lasts a year. Believe me, the Camry won't last a year. It's very rare any car from any manufacturer lasts more than 200K. I've heard of all the stories of the 300K, 400K, 500K mile cars, but those are all the exceptions, not the rule.
For example, my roommate has a 1998 Chevy Tracker. I told him to call my agent, because I have a pretty good rate with them ($570 a year for an '00 Intrepid, and all the liability-only cars I want to add for about $260 a year each). Well, with a Tracker, they wouldn't even touch him. Too dangerous, they say. Nevermind that the Tracker actually does okay (but not stellar) in crash testing.
I've seen, sat in, driven 300K mile cars, some even domestic, and its not the horror story that you're saying it is.
My current daily driver just turned 192,000. Its a little 5speed Honda. In the past six months, I've bought a starter (got tired of parking on a hill) and a gallon of de-icer, and I've had the oil changed. That's it. Sorry to be so boring.
Now, lets have some fun with this. If you do decide to buy a Hyundai for $10,000, why wouldn't you buy a new Civic or Corolla for $13,000? There's no way you can justify the extra $3000, IMHO, when you consider things like reliability and resale value.
You could get a certified preowned version of either car with extended warranties built in for less than the cost of a new Hyundai, and you wouldn't have all your sons friends giving him grief.
Just a thought,
Ed
Although I loved my Z (finally sold it last spring... sniff...) I decided that as soon as I got a decent job I was getting something new with a warranty - I simply didn't have time to be a full time student, employee, AND mechanic.
As someone who has fairly recently been in your son's shoes I can say it would have made things a lot easier if I had a nice reliable late model car with a warranty through school. It's not a bad idea to shop around and drive a leftover 2002 Prizm / Corolla / Sentra / Protege and yes, Elantra and maybe swing a deal with the kid.
-Jason