Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

tollag · April 2002

hands down the mini.. no contest

seminole_kev · April 2002

is a very good offering. But a) not available through a good portion of the US. b) I haven't seen many MINI's (say that 5 times reall fast) that weren't priced at around $25,000. That's a good chunk more than the price of the cars in the test.

Really wish they sold the MINI throughout the US!

d5tanley · April 2002

I almost got run off the road by a truck in my RSX today. I wonder what it would feel like to drive a mini on a crowded highway?

seminole_kev · April 2002

it doesn't matter if you're driving a school bus. Some inattentive dimwit will change lanes without looking. Normally they seem to make up for their poor driving skills by driving the biggest damn SUV or pickup they can get.

shov6 · April 2002

Spied one in a parking garage in Boston, giving me ample opportunity to check it out up close (of course I could've just gone to a dealer, but...).

Anyway, sweet interior but it is SMALL... Smaller than I thought it was going to be, smaller than might feel comfortable in. I dunno, you can be creamed by an Expedition in ANY car, but this one is so TINY... Great for tossability, but it is a little worrisome. This coming from someone who drives a Focus, by the way.

Well I'll worry about it next year when I go car shopping. It's just a little startling that a loaded Mini can cost about the same as a Mustang GT, and THAT is a seriously fast car (as opposed to "quick", which is what the Cooper S will be).

-SHOV6

qbrozen · April 2002

but the mini outhandles a mustang by a far sight. In my opinion, the mini is also more comfortable (those mustang seats and suspension are just BRUTAL on my back) and WAY cooler.

shov6 · April 2002

Strange comparison, I know, but it is an example of the kind of automobile with sporting intentions that you can buy and still get change from your $25,000 bill.

It's a stretch, but relatively valid... They are both cars I am considering when I go shopping for an '04 model year car in 18mos or so. In case you weren't aware, there is a great possibility that the all-new Mustang will be out by then, which will make it an official choice on my short list (the current car won't make it, mostly because I know it's about to be replaced).

-SHOV6

tiredofmanual · April 2002

The current Mustang is still based on the 20+ year old Fox chassis! Ford engineers have done a great job updating it to keep it somewhat modern, but that all-new design is much needed. The Mustang has become a girls car, hopefully the design and engineering team overlook that and create a Mustang that driving enthusiasts will crave. I've heard that the introduction might be delayed. 2004 is too far away in my opinion, any longer is going to make me go crazy!

rmtrader · April 2002

Ya gotta love those 'girl' cars that do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds (4.8 for the Cobra).

shov6 · April 2002

True dat, rmtrader. When I think of Mustangs, I don't think "chick car." The "chick cars" are, ironically, more along the lines of the very cars that name this thread.

Tiredofmanual, I appreciate your input about the outdated Fox chassis, but what you failed to realize is that you are making the exact point that I was. I won't buy a CURRENT Mustang, but the NEXT Mustang will make my list if it is on the market in time.

-SHOV6

qbrozen · April 2002

Actually, I do consider the convertible automatic V6 mustang to be somewhat of a chick car. BUT, a Bullitt Mustang, on the other hand .... it just doesn't get much more "macho" than that. Personally, I don't know a single woman who has ever even heard of that movie. I explained it to my wife, but she still doesn't understand why I like the car so much.

rmtrader · April 2002

If based on a 'shortened' LS platform, the new Mustang should be interesting to say the least. I hope Ford just keeps it affordable. As far as the Bullitt is concerned, I wholeheartedly agree....it looks tougher than nails. The Mach 1 Mustang due out later this year should be fun. Think Bullitt with the Cobra motor tuned for more low rev torque and rocket launches. I suspect that I should stick to the topic in this forum....so what about that new Suzuki Aerio Fastback (type R, Vtec, DOHC, GT model).....

ziglifler · May 2002

I could be wrong but didn't the mustang start out as a "chick car "

greenguy · May 2002

who cares about the mustang! There are town halls that you can talk about the car till your hearts content.
Back on topic. please.

seminole_kev · May 2002

But isn't the Mustang still a hatchback? V8 makes it pretty hot. I don't think it's off topic.

revdrluv · May 2002

No the mustang is a coupe. It has a trunk not a hatch. But ford IS considering bringing back the fastback body style with the next mustang.

Ok, so we can say here that the RSX or Camaro are really fast and have hatchbacks. While yes, these cars do have hatches, what truly makes a car a "Hot Hatch" IMO and not a sport coupe is the utilitarian aspects of such car. Cars like the GTI that you can load up tons of gear into or comfortably carry four people. I am sure the RSX's and Celica's hatches make them useful, but not so much as the Matrix or even the SVT Focus. What makes these cars great is that you are not compromising practicality for performance, you get a healthy dose of both. So on that notion which of these cars is the most useful but still a blast to drive?

seminole_kev · May 2002

I know exactly what you're talking about. I never really consider the Celica, Camaro, Integra's etc.. as hatchbacks. Because they look like coupes and are not near as usefull. To me, the current hot hatches (in the orignial GTi model) are the:

VW GTi, Ford SVT Focus, Honda Civic Si and MINI Cooper S. I may have forgot someone though.

revka · May 2002

Hi Folks- Can someone here offer Skedmunds some feedback regarding the Acura Integra acceleration/transmission in this Integra discussion (Post 294). Thanks for your help.

And now, back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch! ;-)

Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards

qbrozen · May 2002

Just because a car doesn't "look" like a hatch, doesn't mean it isn't as useful. The RSX and Focus were mentioned. According to the specs, there is less than 1 extra cubic foot of luggage capacity in the Focus as opposed to the RSX. As a matter of fact, even the seemingly utilitarian design of the GTI only offers .2 cubic feet more than the RSX. Granted, the space is used differently in each example, but all offer more functionality than a trunk. I just don't think we can realistically claim one hatchback to be "more of a hatch" than another.

npaladin2000 · May 2002

You know, the "hatchbacks" in the GTI and the Focus are so vertical, they really blur the line and are almost wagons. That's that gives them slightly more versatility than a more slanted hatch.

Cubic footage isn't the only thing to consider with cargo. Bulky items will usually fit easier in something like the Matrix, Focus SVT, or GTI than in a Tiburon or Acura RSX, especially when you're talking about something like an air conditioner or a 27 inch TV. Hatches such as the RSX and Celica, while they might have identical or more cubic footage, might have more trouble with bulky items because of their designs, which are much lower-slung.

moses5 · May 2002

Recently, I attended the Dallas autoshow and the BMW representative told me that the Mini currently will not be sold in Texas due to legal issues. He didn't elaborate, but I wonder if it could be because of the size who knows. Sure would be nice to test drive that turbo!

moses5 · May 2002

A week ago I test drove the SVT Focus. I reached speeds of 110mph with the sales along for the ride. The stability was first rate with no high speed float or dartiness. Ford has done a great job of providing a great ride along with high performance tuning.

qbrozen · May 2002

that's what I meant when I said
"the space is used differently in each example".

shov6 · May 2002

No matter what the spec sheets say about cargo space, you will find that there is absolutely no comparison between the likes of the GTI and the Focus as compared to the RSX. The RSX is absolutely tiny when you compare them side-by-side. The total interior space of the Focus, to be specific, positively wrecks the RSX... If such things are important to you, which if you brought up the topic, it probably IS. Just look at the roofline and you know all you need to know about how useful the RSX is in comparison to some of the other "wagon-like" hatches on the market.

-SHOV6

orcinman · May 2002

The Tib is quite a looker.

verozahl · May 2002

The 2003 Tiburon is a looker and I would not have any problems whatsoever if my brother bought one of the 4-cylinder models, as it would make a good compliment to my Integra.

qbrozen · May 2002

actually, redrluv started the cargo space discussion.

I was merely pointing out that I don't believe you can exclude certain cars from being hatchbacks simply because they are shaped differently than the classic hatchback preconception. Frankly, I find them all too small to be REALLY useful. For instance, if I was driving an RSX (which I wouldn't be), there might be one time a year (if that) where'd I'd be carting something where I'd say "damn! I should have bought that Focus".

revdrluv · May 2002

RSX
 Length 172.2
 Rear Head Room 30.1
 Rear Sholder Room 51.3
 Rear Leg Room 29.9

GTI
 Length 164.9
 Rear Head Room 37.4
 Rear Sholder Room 52.7
 Rear Leg Room 33.5

And For Comparison because the tall "station wagon" design allows for four doors.

Matrix
 Length 171.3
 Rear Head Room 39.8
 Rear Sholder Room 52.6
 Rear Leg Room 36.3
and luggage capacity is 21.8 cubic feet

So these traditional style hatchbacks are a little better for carrying four or even 5 people. I think of the hatch on the RSX and Celica as being more of a fastback, It definately makes the car more useful, but not nearly as much as the other hatchbacks. I am not trying to exclude any car. I just wanted to start comparing them based on which has the best balance between being useful and a being a blast to drive. Because that what these cars are all about.

verozahl · May 2002

I find the Integra/RSX as sporty coupes with hatchback functionality. I moved into my new place using my Integra... and it's great for grocery shopping and looting my parents' house (soda pop 12-packs, toilet paper, etc.)... oh, did I mention it's a sporty driver too with all equipment standard and excellent fuel economy?

My 6'-6" friends will fit in the rear seats, but it's not like they love it. If you have friends, don't buy fastbacks. 'Nuff said.

revdrluv · May 2002

And I have climbed in under the hatch on an old 2 seat 300z to get around before. Surprizing how much leg room they have in the rear, of course you have to lay down.

But what is your point? I already said that the hatch on cars like the integra make them more useful. More useful than what though? Maybe roadsters but not much else.

shov6 · May 2002

Surely you can see the humorous side of your assertion that the 300Z had enough room for someone in the back... If they were lying down! Now THAT brought a laugh from me.

Not having any real experience with the RSX/Integra series, I am going to have to ask... Isn't the Integra roomier in the pax compartment as compared to the RSX? Sure, the 4-door Integra is, but the 2dr as well?

As for carrying others around, this is one of the reasons that I didn't worry when I bought a 3dr Focus. I don't have to carry people in the back more than once per month, if that, so the rear seats really are just a bonus in my case. However... I wonder how many others are in my boat. That extra 7 inches (!!!) of legroom and headroom in, say, the Matrix or Golf as compared to the RSX is ENORMOUS.

If you have to carry people regularly, or if you have kids, the more wagonlike cars are certainly a bonus. IF... It matters to you.

-SHOV6

ranald · May 2002

If you thought the 300Z was roomy, you should try a CRX. Your sarcasm aside, 2 seaters can be quite practical cars within certain limits.

Also, not sure why you're so harsh on fastbacks. You say: "I already said that the hatch on cars like the integra make them more useful. More useful than what though? Maybe roadsters but not much else."

You must not have much experience with fastbacks. In many situations they are more useful than any coupe (true coupe, with a trunk) or sedan. Americans love trunks- I'm not sure why, they're vastly inefficient for carrying much of anything, with their awkward shape and small, practically useless entry opening.

ranald · May 2002

I've spent some time inside both the RSX and the Integra.

The RSX is definitely roomier for the front seat passengers- front headroom isn't even close, RSX all the way.

For the back seat passengers the RSX has better legroom but the headroom isn't as good. I'm 6' tall and had more than adequate rear legroom in the RSX, but the rear headroom...

The max headroom position in the RSX has your head in a narrow band between the roof liner in front and the rear glass in back. The car speeds up, careful about hitting your head on the glass. The car slows down, you hit your head on the inside of the roof. I would have to have been 2-3" shorter in the torso to be really safe, and 4-5" shorter in the torso to be truly comfortable.

qbrozen · May 2002

less than 30" legroom in the rear of the RSX is not what I'd call spacious. The 33.4" we have in our Forester is pretty cramped. But, if you want to talk about small backseats, check out the Mini. If you haven't seen one or sat in it, the rear legroom is roughly 1" when I have the driver's seat all the way back (which is where I need it). And I think I'm being generous when I say one inch. I mean, the seatback was just about touching the rear seat.

revdrluv · May 2002

Yeah, I was trying to be funny with that bit about the 300z.

Look lets get this straight. I am not in any way knocking fastbacks. I think the integra, RSX and Celica are great cars. I am just trying to say that these cars we are all talking about are sporty compacts right? Cars like the Integra and the Celica are shaped more like traditional coupes and because of this are often called sport coupes. Cars like the GTi and Matrix are shaped more like traditional hatches and so thats what I consider a hot hatch. Of course the lines can be blurred with some models, but you get my point.

So I see Hot Hatches as cars that are both really fun to drive as well as being very practical. While an Integra is not without its merits in the area of practicality, it is not so functional as a GTI or Matrix. This is not saying that it is a bad car. Just not one that you buy for those reasons. (ala Sport Coupe)

I didn't want to exclude these "fastback" cars from all conversation here. I mearly wanted to know which car of this genre did you think offered the best trade-off between functionality and drivability?

qbrozen · May 2002

and, in response to your question, folks are just trying to tell you that the fastback hatches may not be as bad as you think. Are the squared hatches better for stuffing gear? I'd say yes, I agree with you there.

Personally, I couldn't tell you with fastback hatch is the roomiest.

The Matrix? Now I consider that a wagon. Not really a fair comparison against hatchbacks. The wagon will always win that "versatility" competition. As a matter of fact (just took a look), Edmunds lists it as "2003 Toyota Matrix Sport Wagon."

revdrluv · May 2002

Arrrg... I give up. I never said those types of hatches were BAD! Do you even read my posts, I already explained this.

If the Matrix is a wagon then what is the four door Golf and Focus ZX5? I understand it is often hard to narrow down specific catagories for these cars, but I am sure it is OK if we take some liberties here.

My loose interpretation of a wagon vrs a hatch is that a wagon has a longer rear overhang as if the car had a trunk but it was squared off with a hatch like door. A four door hatch has little or no extended overhang past the rear wheels. I think that the matrix falls more into the later catagory, but it doesn't matter.

qbrozen · May 2002

I do read your posts. I think you are getting a bit more defensive than necessary. Folks are just defending the usefullness of these cars. That's all. Relax. Nobody is attacking you. How about we just drop that thread. On to other things.

I think I follow a slight variation on the wagon. Rather than judging by the rear wheels, I think its rear seats. And this only applies to 4-door configuration, by the way. If we were to call the Matrix a hatchback, for instance, then the WRX wagon, IS300 wagon, and even the Protoge5 would all be hatchbacks as well.

Hmmm... you have a point. Why is the ZX5 listed as a hatchback?? I see no less overhang in that than in the Matrix or any of the others I mentioned above. Maybe Ford just "wanted" to call it a hatchback.(?) The Golf I can still see being a hatch. I mean, just look at it. There is basically nothing behind the rear seats. The remaining cargo space is noticeably smaller than any of the other 4 doors we've mentioned. Its virtually useless without folding the rear seats down. But, it still remains, why is the ZX5 a hatch and (for comparison) a WRX wagon is a wagon? Try comparing the side views here on Edmunds. Flip back and forth between them (as I'm doing). There is very little difference between them in "boot" size.

hpulley4 · May 2002

there is already a Focus Wagon with more cargo room. In the case of other cars where there is only one hatch version, the label is harder to pin down.

The difference between a hatchback and a wagon has been blurred in recent years. Most modern wagons are really just 'hatch' backs anyways as they don't have the side-hinged doors that most big woody wagons had in days of yore. Personally, I'd categorize fastback, hatchback and wagon by the angle of the hatch door and the cargo space available with the rear seat up.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, the 'best' hot hatch is difficult to name unless you qualify your choice. If you don't need to carry any cargo, who cares which one has the biggest trunk? But if you need to take a guitar with you, it matters! If you usually carry one or two people, who cares about the back seat room? Well, if you normally take 3 passengers then 4 doors and decent rear room will be necessary.

To me, a hot hatch doesn't need to carry cargo or more than 1 passenger most of the time -- the back seat and hatchback make it more versatile so it can do hauling when needed but to be the best hot hatch it need not have the best rear leg room or cargo space. A car needs good acceleration and handling to be a good hot hatch, IMO.

seminole_kev · May 2002

ZX5/ZX3 is a hatch because it is noticably shorter than the sedan version.

bpi · May 2002

"I think the ZX5/ZX3 is a hatch because it is noticably shorter than the sedan version."

Then why's the Pro5 officially called a wagon? Granted, it's "only" 4.8 in. shorter than the sedan while the ZX5 is 6.8 in. shorter. Is that it?

seminole_kev · May 2002

a hatch too. I don't believe Mazda calls it a wagon either.

seminole_kev · May 2002

create a topic called "Hatch or wagon?" and have someone post, like a flash card, a picture of a wagon, hatch or 'tweener and everyone could post their vote as to what it is. Might be fun for a few posts. Maybe the moderators could link it to the Wagon section.

bpi · May 2002

Only (AFAIK) Edmunds calls the Pro5 a wagon.

qbrozen · May 2002

geez. i hadn't realized mazda didn't call the pro5 a wagon either. Really, I think the manufacturers just go with what they feel will market their product the best. In this case, looks like Mazda didn't want to put it in any category, so they are content just to call it a "5-door" and avoid categorizing it at all.

nippononly · May 2002

I think that a car is a wagon if the roofline extends past the point above the top of the rear seats. By this standard, Sub Impreza is a five-door hatchback, while cars like Pro5, Focus ZX5, and Matrix are wagons. Had a chance to have a Matrix for the weekend recently - that car is a lot of fun to drive, could use more power, and is definitely a wagon - lots of space behind the rear seat. I have an old impreza wagon from the previous generation, and that car is definitely a hatch - little space in back unless I put the back seats down.

And by the way, I was chuckling, because I recently did what a previous post said and bought a 27 inch TV, which fit just fine in the back of my new celica with the rear seats down. That car has a deceptively large amount of room in back - just don't make people sit in the seats, which have no legroom.

And on topic, the only car in the header of this discussion I would drive besides my celica is the new mini, just based on the looks. They all look kind of boring to me, in fact GTI looks positively old. Sadly, they made the new RSX look like every other Acura, which is to say, very conservative. I just saw one of the new minis on the street for the first time however. That car looks great...it has me wondering, is two years old too young to trade in my celica?! (terrible thoughts, the celica has been a fantastic car for me, still love it, but love the looks of the mini. I am just not sure I could handle the fact that it has 25 LESS horsepower than my celica, and a body that is 200 pounds or more heavier)

npaladin2000 · May 2002

Hmm..so you actually managed to squeeze one in, huh? Ok, maybe I should consider the Celica alongside the GTI...the fact is, I like the way the GTI looks. Plain, simple, and understated is the way I like to go sometimes. DId you have to take the TV out of the box to get it in or did it fit box and all?

Another question....how comfy is the interior on the Celica? I know the big thing about the GTI is the fact that it's basically an almost-luxo-sport-econo-hatch (Nice term, yes?). They're EXTREMELY comfortable inside, between the leather and the heated seats and all of the soft-touch materials. And the GTI is also actually cheaper than the Celica per-horsepower, and wipes the floor with the Celica as far as torque goes. And (I know people will razz me for this one, but) the GTI offers a 5 speed auto-manual versus the Celica's 4-speed auto-manual. Sometimes I don't like to be bothered with shifting gears...but sometimes I like to do it. Tranny options like that give me a choice, which is great.

nippononly · May 2002

Lots of space in that little car! Now of course, if you have read any of the posts on Edmunds about the celica, you should know by now that the interior is one thing in this car that gets constant criticism. I am personally pretty happy with it, because it is stylish, yet comfortable for me. It is certainly no GTI - I drove one of those last year and that is a seriously plush car inside. In fact, it is probably safe to say that all of the cars listed in this topic's header have nicer interiors than the celica, and that is a shame, given that it is such a great car in so many respects.

As far as the GTI, I will just say this: I don't like automatics, so I can't compare them, but I did test-drive the celica AT GTS, and while it was fun to button-shift, it was also slow!

The GTI I test drove leaned over like a ship in hard turns, while the celica has no body lean at all, and feels glued to the ground. It feels light, to me the GTI felt very heavy. It was what I would call a very solid-feeling car, which is great, except when you want to go around corners or through canyons really fast!

hpulley4 · May 2002

If 'hot' means attention getting, the MINI is it, at least right now. In a few years it may be ho-hum but right now I have people taking pictures of my car when I go to the store, everyone says "great car!", people drive the same speed to have a look; they wave, give me thumb's up, etc. If you don't want this kind of attention, wait a while or buy something else. The reactions haven't gotten old yet...

Kirstie_H · May 2002

One major daily newspaper is looking for folks who drive 2002 or 2003 yellow or orange cars, and another major daily newspaper is looking for folks who successfully or unsuccessfully attempted to negotiate the purchase prices of their vehicles at the end of their lease terms. If you care to share your stories on either or both of these topics, please send an e-mail containing a short summary of your experience and your contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, May 14.

Thanks much,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

Best Hot Hatch - SVT, Civic Si, GTI, RSX, Mini, Beetle...

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