Has anyone heard about the new Turbo Matrix due here very soon? I hear it is going to have 250+ hp. That and its AWD setup could make for a very serious car.
No, CAR magazine has a little blip about it in their buying guide in the back. They say it is sceduled for production in the US (they don't even have that model so it is not just for europe) this or next summer. the turbo gives it a 73 hp or so hike. Sounds like fun to me.
Maybe the Celica was slow because of its lack of torque? Or the fact that the Sportshift is only a 4 speed versus the 5 speed Tiptronic (automanual) in the GTI?
Oh..one other thing I'm looking at between the two is price...the GTI is simply a cheaper vehicle, even with the Eibach sport springs, which are supposed to really improve the suspension issues that you mentioned. Anyone driven a GTI with those installed?
Still, I'm waiting for next year's GTI...it's supposed to get Electronic Stability, which should also help. I wonder if it'll ever get Audi's Multitronic CVT? Probably not, but one never knows...so far VW is saying it isn't going to happen, at least not before the re-design...which I've seen, and do NOT like.
Yeah, the celica sportshift is slow because the engine has very little torque down low, and the transmission is only a four speed, so it falls out of its powerband every time it shifts.
The GTI is a really nice car, if not quite what I personally was looking for. Have you seen the handling package on the limited production 337 this year? If they put that on all the GTIs, that would probably help a lot with the cornering "lean".
One other thing: until this year, the base GTI was what I would call underpowered, with a 3000+ pound curb weight. With the new turbo, it is OK, but back when I was shopping, I would have had to buy the VR6 to even get close to the power/weight ratio of the celica, and that VR6 costs more like $21K. I got my celica for 19.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the hp is up to 180 anyway - I suppose they will have to up the output of the VR6 soon, because it is now outgunned by the smaller engine! I have not driven the 180hp GTI four-cylinder, but I would imagine there might not be much need for mods - I bet it is pretty fast as it is.
One personal turn-off with regard to the GTI: it has had such consistent electrical problems in past years. Plus, VWs seem to have gained a rep for buttons and other interior stuff that break off easily. One reason I bought Toyota was the expectation that I would not have to pay to repair anything for the first five years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think VW should consider selling a four door GTI in a year or so. Of course maybe they will just bring out a sportier Jetta instead.
Has anyone heard about when Alfa Romeo comes bake to the states if we will get the 147. That has to be the most attractive hatchback in production right now.
Don't let the 3-stars fool you. The side impact was great, to pull up the score. Just don't hit anything head on. To bad. Really love how the 147 looks.
seems like the reintroduction year keeps getting pushed back. I think the last I heard was 2005. Considering that, who knows what models will even be produced at that time. I hate to think it, but maybe the 147 won't even be around by then.
In any case, I did hear rumours that the spider and GTV6 will be the first to come here. The 166 is supposed to follow a year or so after.
I am also really hoping for the more affordable 147, but it sounds like GM is looking to make it more of a luxury brand to sell alongside Saab and (again, this is rumour) Cadillac.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I went with the GTI because it is an excellent base car to cheaply get increadable performance gains from. I did a lot of research on what was available in the aftermarket for it and had to have one. The base turbo GTI with 180 HP is a nice car, excellent performance, soft compliant suspension. My GTI has the luxury package (sunroof, Monsoon sound) and 17" wheel package ($400 a steal) It's easy to address anything on the factory spec GTI that you don't care for: Soft suspension that leans in turns - there are a variety of aftermarket suspensions available for it. I went with Neuspeed racing springs, BIlstien shocks and a 25mm Neuspeed rear sway bar and upper front stess bar. totally transformed the suspension no lean whatsoever and sticks like glue. vague shifter - installed a diesel geek shifter for about $125 that shortened the throws 40% perfect. 180 HP is nice but how about 240?? Neuspeed turbo air intake (70% better flow into the turbo) Downpipe (ditto out of the turbo) eurosport exhaust (not loud, excellent performance gains), a K&N air filter in the factory box (a must) and a reprogrammed ECU by APR (Audi Performance Racing www.goapr.com). APR gives me the capability of switching the ECU between programs using the cruise control button.
My GTI has all the drivability of the factory car, smooth power delivery, minimal turbo lag etc - just A LOT more power. I terrorize a good friend of mine that has a 2000 M Coupe - can't beat him but I can stay right on his bumper same with another friend that has an S4, I can hang right in with both of them. This thing is a blast! I have a total of $22k in it with the modifications - a steal for this level of performance.
It pulls a little from a standstill if I really get on it, not bad at all, very controllable. Once underway if punch it there is almost no torque steer. I really don't notice it now at all.
a friend of mine who had an 80's audi that was a world of trouble. Just about everything that could go wrong did, and nothing was cheap to fix either! But of course, those cars have no bearing on the Audis of today, which are as you say merely VWs with different badges.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Here are some great sites to get info on upgrading a GTI - www.vwvortex.com - the best resource by far for gaining information on upgrading anything VW or Audi.
www.greedspeed.com - these guys are great, they carry Neuspeed accessories at a discount and are a good source for technical info. There are tons of VW aftermarket vendors out there also check out www.neuspeed.com
www.goapr.com - this site is amazing, this is where I had my ECU reprogrammed - there are countless others that upgrade ECU's - Neuspeed does it (greedspeed performs Nuespeed ECU upgrades) and Upsolute - www.upsolute.com
I have a local performance shop that carries Neuspeed accessories, they will give me the same deal I can get on the web and usually include installation. My racing springs were $180 for the springs and $80 for installation, chrome upper stess bar was $110 installed, the 25mm rear sway bar was $230 installed - all the suspension stuff is really easy to install, even the springs if someone experienced does it, took them less than an hour. The upper stress bar was installed in 15 minutes. Rear sway bar was around 20 minutes.
The eurosport cat back exhaust was $380, had it installed at Midas for $70. Take a look at Greedspeed - under engine products - those are basically the prices I paid for the turbo intake, downpipe etc.
As far as durability goes - this 1.8T engine appears to be all but bullet proof, massively over engineered in typical German fashion. The GTI is a stout little car that can easily take on significant performance mods. My GTI is an absolute blast to drive.
I'll probably get flogged for this but... why doesn't anyone talk about the 2003 tiburon? It spits out 181 ponies with 177 torque. The 0-60 is 7.1 seconds ( I clocked it myself ) and all for less than $20K. I've personally smoked all the cars on this discussion (stock). It's all under warranty too. Call me crazy but it looks to me like your badge loyalty is putting blinders on your eyes. Hey, I could be wrong though. Please let me know how.
well I don't considerate a hot hatch because of the items discussed above, not because it's a Hyundai. I think the 456GT styling looks great. It was attracting a lot of attention at the local autoshow. It's a bit heavy for what I'd want, but if I was looking for a 2-door coupe(-ish) vehicle, the Tiburon would be a definite contender.
with the latest tib. Having said that, I like my hatch as light and tossable as possible, which is why I went with the celica. I believe your V-6 tib is around 3000 pounds, right? Same for the GTI, which is why I did not want one of those either. The only contender I seriously considered was the RSX, at around 2750 pounds curb (still 300 pounds more than my car), but I didn't like the looks, and I think real-world gas mileage on my celica is better than the RSX too (I get around 35 most tanks, better on the hi-way). Out of curiosity, what kind of mileage does your tib get, if you have noticed?
In terms of looks, I would have to say I rank these cars in this order: 1. mini 2. celica 3. tiburon 4. GTI 5. RSX
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With all due respect to your Tiburon and what it offers for the dollar, it doesn't "smoke" anything in this group. That term would suggest that you are blowing the doors off all comers... Think about 0-60 times or quarter-mile times that differ by well over a second. And at best you would have "smoked" a Mini. That's it. You have a slight edge over the Civic and the SVT. You are a dead heat with the Celica and "regular" RSX.
However, you are going to be beaten by the RSX Type S, the Eclipse GT, and most notably because of its' price, the GTI 1.8. Those last two, at least, are going to be competitive on the dollar side and beat you on the drag racing side.
Just be careful... Racing a stock GTI for pink-slips means that you are going to be car shopping soon.
In any case, straight-line numbers are only one measure of a car. A big one, sure, but it's far from everything. If acceleration numbers were everything, we'd all be driving big-blocks.
-SHOV6
P.S.- The funniest part is that a 15 year-old SHO will beat almost every car in this segment in a drag race.
yeah the lap times of a decent course would tell a different story from the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Like the Car and Driver comparo with the Civic Si, GTi and SVT Focus. The GTi out muscled the others by good measure (especially torque), but the SVT Focus turned in the fastest lap times.
the Tib will only beat the base Mini. Don't forget about the S. I know we still haven't seen solid test data on it (or maybe we have and I just missed it cause Edmunds is posting 6.9), but I'm pretty sure it will do quite well ... in a straight line AND on a track.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
yeah, and every car here is about 1000 times more visually appealing to be in than the SHO! Big heavy brute of a car with a very fast engine and little handling thru corners.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thanks for the education on the paramaters that define the term "smoked". I stand corrected. My point was that the Tib's performance is good enough that the driver's skill could put the car in contention in a race with most of these cars. The Eclipse GT would win... probably. I haven't raced an RSX-S. I have to completely disagree with the Celica GT-S though. I haven't had a single one give me any trouble. I've smo.. sorry, 'beaten' them every time.
Also, what do you mean competitive on the dollar side? A fully loaded Eclipse GT is upwards of 26K and similar numbers for the RSX-S. I don't find that competitive at all. The thing those cars are most competive in is, as mentioned above, the gas mileage. I'm only getting about 18 when I drive 'normally' and about 16 or 17 when I race it often
The first year of the SHO, if I am not mistaken, was '89. Those and the two model years that followed were the fastest of the SHO's in a straight line because they were lighter than the '92-'95 (??, let's not even get into the jellybean-shaped V8 monstrosities that were actually SLOWER than the V6 cars) models.
For cars that "weren't all that fast", they would keep up with or beat just about every "hot hatch" on the market today. The slowest of them were the later model (V6) cars with automatics, and those would turn low 7's in the 0-60 dash. The manuals, like the one I had (mine was a '92, last of the manual-only model years) would turn the 0-60 in 6.6-7.1, depending upon the magazine and the test. You'll note that I am focusing on acceleration times, but since that's what about 90% of people focus on anyway, that's what I will stick with.
To put this in perspective, the SHO was the second-fastest 4-door car for sale in the USA for several years, maybe ending in the early 90's. What was faster?
The BMW M5. And that car was only, oh, TWICE as much, and then some.
So give credit where credit is due, even a "slow" 5spd SHO will go neck-and-neck with the Tiburon, the Eclipse GT, the RSX, etc... And a healthy one, with a stick, can or could beat every car in the category except maybe the GTI and the RSX Type S.
Now handling is another matter. Let's try to be fair and put an early-90's 4-door in it's place and 500lb-lighter hatchbacks with an extra decade of automotive engineering (and tire engineering) advances in THEIR place. Remember that the SHO could pull over .80 on a skidpad and had decent slalom numbers, but it's no match for a 2700-lb SVT. The SHO was fine enough in its' day, though, to be on Car and Driver's Top Ten at least twice (I know my '92 model year made it). I find it funny that Nissan was all smug about their 222hp Maxima two years ago (may be wrong about the exact year but bear with me)... Remember the advertising blitz for "number of cars like it... ZERO" campaign in support of the Maxima? I just sat there and laughed, thinking "it only took them 15 years to beat the SHO on power, by TWO horsepower, yeah, THAT'S something to be proud of LOL".
To sum up... I don't recommend taking a drag race against a stick shift SHO too lightly. You will end up playing catch-up if you do... And that's just stock. Modified SHO's can easily crank out over 300hp some over, and that ain't chicken scratch. Just put underdrive pulleys on it and find 30hp right there... The internals of the engine were good for 9000rpm, but the accessory drive would blow up! There was a lot of untapped potential in that engine (3.0L, 220hp and 230lb/ft of torque, 7000rpm stock).
And for Nippononly's assertion that all these cars are more visually appealing than an old SHO... Well that's subjective at best. I'd rather have my '92 SHO back than be caught zipping around in that horrid-looking Civic (IMHO of course)... And the VW isn't much of a looker, either (though I would LOVE to have a GTI). Come to think of it, I don't see what all the hoopla is about the Tiburon. Everyone seems to be tripping over themselves praising it, but I think it's way too derivative and is trying too hard to look like something it isn't, i.e.- A Ferrari 456GT.
Anyway, point(s) made, off-topic to be sure, but I think this forum could use a slight bit of livening up.
who thinks a Taurus looks better than the hatches in this topic has some serious American bias, I think! The only American car that runs with anything listed here for looks or handling is the focus SVT. And I still like the Acura, Toyota, and Mini better. The old American heavy metal days are over - no better proof of that is needed than the demise of the camaro.
Saw another mini on the road yesterday - YES! That is a great looking car. Can't wait for the S to be available...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't need you telling me what I can or can't post. Someone tells me their Civic (or whatever) can outrun an SHO... Well I am setting them straight. Chill out.
Nippononly, you do make me laugh saying that I have an American bias when the name you post under simply screams YOUR bias for Japanese cars. People in glass houses... Oh never mind.
Before you pronounce the American "heavy metal days" as "over", you'd better realize that there is still a Corvette, there is still a Mustang (and there will be a brand new one in about two years), there is still a police package-type Crown Vic, the 300hp Mercury Marauder is coming soon, the Lightning SVT continues to be available, and there are numerous 300hp+ SUV's out there as well. Heavy American Iron is still alive and well, not that I want any of it but for those who do, there's no shortage. You may not believe it, but it's true.
You may not like the Camaro, and neither do I for that matter, but I HAVE driven them and the reality is that they will decimate any hot-rodded econocar, which is what this topic is all about. The live-axle handling can be 'interesting' on rough roads and they can look ridiculous (see the last generation of Trans Ams??), but they are absolutely ferocious in acceleration and on good roads they handle well, too.
I agree this topic was created primarily for discussing hot hatches, but given the natural tendency for discussions like this to occasionally veer off topic, let's please be a little flexible instead of confronting other members about what they should/should not be saying.
If you feel there is a real problem here, please send me an email and let me address the situation. In the meantime, please just ignore/scroll. Let's not forget that responding to unwanted posts often creates more unwanted posts. And now, back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch. Thanks for your participation. ;-)
I know of a few hot hatches (modified) that hang with a C5 Vette - I belong to a local Euro tuner club. A few of my friends have supercharged their VR6 GTI's and Jetta's.
I could have bought an M3 when I got my GTI instead with the intent of modifying it - I prefer a small fast hatchbacks that handle really well.
Taurus SHO? - my brother inlaw had one way back when. I guess it was fast and ugly and very poorly made, rattled, creaked, groaned. I rarely see them on the road, I think most of them have disintegrated by now.
I like my GTI 1.8T because it is easy to upgrade to whatever performance level I want. It's very well made with high quality materials and a nice tight structure, plus it's increadably safe - 6 airbags and fantastic crash test scores. It looks good IMO and the hatch configuration gives it the utility of a small minivan.
The same can be said for each of the hot hatches in this forum, they all have their own unique attractions for people - these are great all around cars, to each his own.
to go look at a mini, but the nearest dealer to me is about 30 miles away! And BMW is selling them, which brings me to my question: anyone out there have any experience driving this car to try it out? Are they snooty about it, or will they let you drive it? And if you have driven it, can it really hold its own vs celica/RSX/GTI, or is the cooper version really slow?
If so, I will wait until the S arrives.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My dealer just asked if I could drive a manual and threw me the keys when I wanted to test a MINI. Didn't have to go with me. No snobbery at all, even though my trade-in was a '95 Geo Metro 3-banger with no AC or radio. He told me to keep the revs between 3000 and 6000RPM and not to bother hitting 4th between 5th and 3rd gear when passing on the highway so he didn't want me to baby it.
Most car magazines are getting low 8's for the Cooper 0-60MPH and high 6's for the S so it looks like the S shaves 1.5s or so off the time (though I hear it takes 7-8s off the 0-100MPH time). I don't find the base Cooper slow at all as the gearing makes the car faster than it would appear just by checking the power:weight. Before you break it in it is a bit tight but it opens up well over the first 1000 miles or so. Main problem is with the speedo in the middle I am usually going much faster than I intended. Best thing to do is take a broken-in tester for a drive.
A friend had deposits down on two "S" models; I think he's dropped the one deposit.
In any event, he went to look/drive it when the first models started coming in and was disappointed at the "take it or leave it" options combinations currently being shipped. He also got a chance to do a careful look-over of one car that had around 2 weeks worth of test drives on it and said that its leather was in miserable shape already.
You friend should have opted for leatherette. (Or is it not too late to option it?)
The leatherette is pretty much the same kind found in BMW's (of course) and is quite durable and even looks like real leather. It is black in colour (kinda charcoal, actually).
My Cooper 'S' will have leatherette. (Yes, I have sat in a Mini Cooper with leatherette and was pleased to find how much it looked like real leather.) I plan to fool my friends into thinking it's real.
I was on the list for an S - I put my $1k refundable deposit down a year and a half ago before my BMW dealer (Orlando) was a confirmed MINI dealer. That put me at 14 on the S list - I've already had the opportunity to purchase 3 S's that this dealer had gotten in - I passed. I asked for my deposit back about a week ago - just deposited the refund today as a matter of fact. I first took an S for a test drive a couple of months ago - you definately want to take a test drive before getting all hyped about it.
All MINI dealers should have an S to test drive - as well as a base MINI Cooper. My biggest beef was this dealer had $1,500 in mandatory accessories tacked on to every S. Most of the ones they had in stock had a lot more garbage tacked on than that. I wanted an electric blue S, the one I could have bought came to almost $28k with accessories - not worth it at all - MSRP on it was $23k. That was the main reason I got my deposit back - I can't stand that type of B.S. - plus these waiting lists are dwindling fast. There are no waiting lists for a base Cooper and it's not unheard of to be able to walk in to a dealer and buy an S today. My dealer had a silver S with premium and sport packages a week ago that anyone could have bought.
Bottom line - The MINI is a nice little car that is not that big a deal - nothing like the New Beetle or PT Cruiser was when they first came out. Wait a few short months (if that long) and what little hype is left will be gone.
I'll probably revisit purchasing an S in a year or two - I'm really interested in what the aftermarket will have for it. An S with a little suspension work and around 230 HP under the hood would get me interested again. It will take at least that to pry me away from my GTI.
To be honest, I don't know if the beaten-up interior he saw was leather or leatherette. He said leather, but...well, you know how it goes. The only thing we can say for sure is that it wasn't cloth.
(Or is it not too late to option it?)
Its supposedly "too soon". Dave's quite unhappy with how his Mini is handling their options: he was told that if he wants a specific combination (ie, a custom-order), he can't do that until 2003.
If what he was told is correct, what they've done is that they've made "standard" options packages and there's really only like a half dozen different configurations to choose from, so if you really want Color X and Option Y & Z, you're going to have to eat Options A & B along with it.
Did you run into this problem at all, or did your list of wants match up with what they were offering? I'm wondering if its a "local dealer" type of problem.
The audacity of wanting dual exhaust! How dare you even bring that up jedisebs!
If you ask me, people should not be allowed to customize their vehicles in any way that doesn't smack of "substance over style", cost less to maintain, or in any way that might make it dissimilar to a Porsche 911.
In the middle of the rear. I prefer the look of the 'bud can' single exhaust of the Cooper off to the side but to each their own. Dual exhaust is pretty silly on a small 4-banger but so are spoilers on FWD cars and mine has one of those too...
Well IMO dual pipes look cool and give a car the muscle image. I'm alot older than most you guys and I used to nose and deck my cars. It makes me sick to see that PT Cuiser w/o a small V8 ,Hollywood mufflers and duals.(I'd never buy Chrysler) I'm afraid to put a Y pipe on my new wheels as it might void the warantee. Also, if some dude can make noise with a Harley ,why are Hollywood glass pack mufflers illegal in some states? I live in Maine.
If you ask me, people should not be allowed to customize their vehicles in any way that doesn't smack of "substance over style", cost less to maintain, or in any way that might make it dissimilar to a Porsche 911.
Your sarcasm is noted.
But it does revive the question as to why some people go to such amazing lengths to "tart" up their vehicles with garbage that doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to actual performance. Its the old attitude that a sticker can work magic, and that looking like you have a fast car is more important than actually having a fast car.
And while I'm sure its been mentioned enough times such that everyone is sick of it, there are webpages that highlight this kind of tomfoolery that has been an embarrassment IMO to some Marquees, including some which are the subject of this specific TH list.
As such, I consider a dual exhaust refit to be a symptom of a very bizzare disease. It would appear to me that what separates the Men from the Boys is that the latter are more interested in garnering attention than actually garnering performance.
And of course, the irony is that for all of us - myself included - our biggest bang for the buck in being able to "go more fast" is not any aftermarket widget, but instead, its a good performance driving school to improve our driving skills.
I had no problems ordering the car exactly the way I wanted it.
Here in Canada, dealers cannot sell above M.S.R.P., and most seem to not be forcing "packages" on customers. They DO offer these packages to customers who cannot wait that extra time for their own specced Mini, and will take ANY Mini thrown at them.
You can also wait for the John Cooper Works version of the Cooper 'S'. (From what I heard, it will have the exhaust pipes relocated from the center, to one on each end, like the above picture).
What you are saying is that a car should have absolutely nothing on it that doesn't add to the performance? So you are driving your 911 around with just a coat of primer, right? Cause that pesky coat of paint does nothing but make it look good. Oh, and it DOES add a couple of pounds to the weight, so its actually ROBBING you of performance! The nerve of the manufacturer of such a marvel of automotive technology to make their car look decent!
Now, before I get ahead of myself, let me say that I do agree with you, to a degree. A 3-foot wing on an otherwise stock Honda Civic EX is just plain silly, but the man here just wants dual exhaust on his MINI! I just can't see that as being outrageous or "tart"ish.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Now, before I get ahead of myself, let me say that I do agree with you, to a degree. A 3-foot wing on an otherwise stock Honda Civic EX is just plain silly,...
It is opinion, but I think that any sort of wing on most sedans look silly, as are the claims made. For example, the wing for the Infinity I35 claims that it nets out the car to "zero lift". That's great, but zero from what? maybe 30 lbs? If so, that's a ... but the man here just wants dual exhaust on his MINI! I just can't see that as being outrageous or "tart"ish.
I agree that its not that bad on the "tart" scale, but wait until he puts the 4" tips on it :-)
Personally, I wouldn't bother to make such an exhaust change unless there was some bottom-line performance benefit behind it that was really worth chasing after.
The nerve of the manufacturer of such a marvel of automotive technology to make their car look decent!
Actually, paint is corrosion resistance, so it does serve a useful purpose. Its not that I don't mind (or don't want) having a good looking car. Instead, its that I simply refuse to let the automobile be a Golden Calf that I must worship: Its a commodity that I'm going to consume, and not allow let it consume me. Perhaps its heresy to say this here, but c'mon! Its just a car!
I could keep going on this, but a host will just tell us this isn't the place for such a discussion. So I'm going to refrain and just say that we (apparently) disagree a little here. I also don't let me car obsession get out of hand, but I do defend other peoples' desire to look good driving around (but I draw the line at looking like an [non-permissible content removed] and I guess our definition of what exactly that looks like is where we really differ). Personally, I drive an arguably unattractive car with zero body add-ons just because its comfortable and a very good performer as is.
Which, to stick on subject, is what I'm interested in the MINI for. OK, so its ridiculously small, but I did sit in it and I think its relatively comfortable as long as you don't need to carry more than one passenger.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
Has anyone heard about the new Turbo Matrix due here very soon? I hear it is going to have 250+ hp. That and its AWD setup could make for a very serious car.
Oh..one other thing I'm looking at between the two is price...the GTI is simply a cheaper vehicle, even with the Eibach sport springs, which are supposed to really improve the suspension issues that you mentioned. Anyone driven a GTI with those installed?
Still, I'm waiting for next year's GTI...it's supposed to get Electronic Stability, which should also help. I wonder if it'll ever get Audi's Multitronic CVT? Probably not, but one never knows...so far VW is saying it isn't going to happen, at least not before the re-design...which I've seen, and do NOT like.
The GTI is a really nice car, if not quite what I personally was looking for. Have you seen the handling package on the limited production 337 this year? If they put that on all the GTIs, that would probably help a lot with the cornering "lean".
One other thing: until this year, the base GTI was what I would call underpowered, with a 3000+ pound curb weight. With the new turbo, it is OK, but back when I was shopping, I would have had to buy the VR6 to even get close to the power/weight ratio of the celica, and that VR6 costs more like $21K. I got my celica for 19.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
One personal turn-off with regard to the GTI: it has had such consistent electrical problems in past years. Plus, VWs seem to have gained a rep for buttons and other interior stuff that break off easily. One reason I bought Toyota was the expectation that I would not have to pay to repair anything for the first five years.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Has anyone heard about when Alfa Romeo comes bake to the states if we will get the 147. That has to be the most attractive hatchback in production right now.
http://www.euroncap.com/details.php3?id=car_108_2001
Don't let the 3-stars fool you. The side impact was great, to pull up the score. Just don't hit anything head on. To bad. Really love how the 147 looks.
In any case, I did hear rumours that the spider and GTV6 will be the first to come here. The 166 is supposed to follow a year or so after.
I am also really hoping for the more affordable 147, but it sounds like GM is looking to make it more of a luxury brand to sell alongside Saab and (again, this is rumour) Cadillac.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Soft suspension that leans in turns - there are a variety of aftermarket suspensions available for it. I went with Neuspeed racing springs, BIlstien shocks and a 25mm Neuspeed rear sway bar and upper front stess bar. totally transformed the suspension no lean whatsoever and sticks like glue.
vague shifter - installed a diesel geek shifter for about $125 that shortened the throws 40% perfect.
180 HP is nice but how about 240?? Neuspeed turbo air intake (70% better flow into the turbo) Downpipe (ditto out of the turbo) eurosport exhaust (not loud, excellent performance gains), a K&N air filter in the factory box (a must) and a reprogrammed ECU by APR (Audi Performance Racing www.goapr.com). APR gives me the capability of switching the ECU between programs using the cruise control button.
My GTI has all the drivability of the factory car, smooth power delivery, minimal turbo lag etc - just A LOT more power. I terrorize a good friend of mine that has a 2000 M Coupe - can't beat him but I can stay right on his bumper same with another friend that has an S4, I can hang right in with both of them. This thing is a blast! I have a total of $22k in it with the modifications - a steal for this level of performance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
www.vwvortex.com - the best resource by far for gaining information on upgrading anything VW or Audi.
www.greedspeed.com - these guys are great, they carry Neuspeed accessories at a discount and are a good source for technical info. There are tons of VW aftermarket vendors out there also check out www.neuspeed.com
www.goapr.com - this site is amazing, this is where I had my ECU reprogrammed - there are countless others that upgrade ECU's - Neuspeed does it (greedspeed performs Nuespeed ECU upgrades) and Upsolute - www.upsolute.com
I have a local performance shop that carries Neuspeed accessories, they will give me the same deal I can get on the web and usually include installation. My racing springs were $180 for the springs and $80 for installation, chrome upper stess bar was $110 installed, the 25mm rear sway bar was $230 installed - all the suspension stuff is really easy to install, even the springs if someone experienced does it, took them less than an hour. The upper stress bar was installed in 15 minutes. Rear sway bar was around 20 minutes.
The eurosport cat back exhaust was $380, had it installed at Midas for $70. Take a look at Greedspeed - under engine products - those are basically the prices I paid for the turbo intake, downpipe etc.
As far as durability goes - this 1.8T engine appears to be all but bullet proof, massively over engineered in typical German fashion. The GTI is a stout little car that can easily take on significant performance mods. My GTI is an absolute blast to drive.
In terms of looks, I would have to say I rank these cars in this order:
1. mini
2. celica
3. tiburon
4. GTI
5. RSX
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
However, you are going to be beaten by the RSX Type S, the Eclipse GT, and most notably because of its' price, the GTI 1.8. Those last two, at least, are going to be competitive on the dollar side and beat you on the drag racing side.
Just be careful... Racing a stock GTI for pink-slips means that you are going to be car shopping soon.
In any case, straight-line numbers are only one measure of a car. A big one, sure, but it's far from everything. If acceleration numbers were everything, we'd all be driving big-blocks.
-SHOV6
P.S.- The funniest part is that a 15 year-old SHO will beat almost every car in this segment in a drag race.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also, what do you mean competitive on the dollar side? A fully loaded Eclipse GT is upwards of 26K and similar numbers for the RSX-S. I don't find that competitive at all. The thing those cars are most competive in is, as mentioned above, the gas mileage. I'm only getting about 18 when I drive 'normally' and about 16 or 17 when I race it often
Oh yeah. Do any of your cars have dual exhaust?
I'm only familiar with the early 90's version, which weren't all that fast, although not slouches either.
For cars that "weren't all that fast", they would keep up with or beat just about every "hot hatch" on the market today. The slowest of them were the later model (V6) cars with automatics, and those would turn low 7's in the 0-60 dash. The manuals, like the one I had (mine was a '92, last of the manual-only model years) would turn the 0-60 in 6.6-7.1, depending upon the magazine and the test. You'll note that I am focusing on acceleration times, but since that's what about 90% of people focus on anyway, that's what I will stick with.
To put this in perspective, the SHO was the second-fastest 4-door car for sale in the USA for several years, maybe ending in the early 90's. What was faster?
The BMW M5. And that car was only, oh, TWICE as much, and then some.
So give credit where credit is due, even a "slow" 5spd SHO will go neck-and-neck with the Tiburon, the Eclipse GT, the RSX, etc... And a healthy one, with a stick, can or could beat every car in the category except maybe the GTI and the RSX Type S.
Now handling is another matter.
To sum up... I don't recommend taking a drag race against a stick shift SHO too lightly. You will end up playing catch-up if you do... And that's just stock. Modified SHO's can easily crank out over 300hp some over, and that ain't chicken scratch. Just put underdrive pulleys on it and find 30hp right there... The internals of the engine were good for 9000rpm, but the accessory drive would blow up! There was a lot of untapped potential in that engine (3.0L, 220hp and 230lb/ft of torque, 7000rpm stock).
And for Nippononly's assertion that all these cars are more visually appealing than an old SHO... Well that's subjective at best. I'd rather have my '92 SHO back than be caught zipping around in that horrid-looking Civic (IMHO of course)... And the VW isn't much of a looker, either (though I would LOVE to have a GTI). Come to think of it, I don't see what all the hoopla is about the Tiburon. Everyone seems to be tripping over themselves praising it, but I think it's way too derivative and is trying too hard to look like something it isn't, i.e.- A Ferrari 456GT.
Anyway, point(s) made, off-topic to be sure, but I think this forum could use a slight bit of livening up.
-SHOV6
Saw another mini on the road yesterday - YES! That is a great looking car. Can't wait for the S to be available...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippononly, you do make me laugh saying that I have an American bias when the name you post under simply screams YOUR bias for Japanese cars. People in glass houses... Oh never mind.
Before you pronounce the American "heavy metal days" as "over", you'd better realize that there is still a Corvette, there is still a Mustang (and there will be a brand new one in about two years), there is still a police package-type Crown Vic, the 300hp Mercury Marauder is coming soon, the Lightning SVT continues to be available, and there are numerous 300hp+ SUV's out there as well. Heavy American Iron is still alive and well, not that I want any of it but for those who do, there's no shortage. You may not believe it, but it's true.
You may not like the Camaro, and neither do I for that matter, but I HAVE driven them and the reality is that they will decimate any hot-rodded econocar, which is what this topic is all about. The live-axle handling can be 'interesting' on rough roads and they can look ridiculous (see the last generation of Trans Ams??), but they are absolutely ferocious in acceleration and on good roads they handle well, too.
And... They are hatchbacks. Hot hatches, anyone?
-SHOV6
If you feel there is a real problem here, please send me an email and let me address the situation. In the meantime, please just ignore/scroll. Let's not forget that responding to unwanted posts often creates more unwanted posts. And now, back to the subject of the Best Hot Hatch. Thanks for your participation. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
I could have bought an M3 when I got my GTI instead with the intent of modifying it - I prefer a small fast hatchbacks that handle really well.
Taurus SHO? - my brother inlaw had one way back when. I guess it was fast and ugly and very poorly made, rattled, creaked, groaned. I rarely see them on the road, I think most of them have disintegrated by now.
I like my GTI 1.8T because it is easy to upgrade to whatever performance level I want. It's very well made with high quality materials and a nice tight structure, plus it's increadably safe - 6 airbags and fantastic crash test scores. It looks good IMO and the hatch configuration gives it the utility of a small minivan.
The same can be said for each of the hot hatches in this forum, they all have their own unique attractions for people - these are great all around cars, to each his own.
If so, I will wait until the S arrives.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Most car magazines are getting low 8's for the Cooper 0-60MPH and high 6's for the S so it looks like the S shaves 1.5s or so off the time (though I hear it takes 7-8s off the 0-100MPH time). I don't find the base Cooper slow at all as the gearing makes the car faster than it would appear just by checking the power:weight. Before you break it in it is a bit tight but it opens up well over the first 1000 miles or so. Main problem is with the speedo in the middle I am usually going much faster than I intended. Best thing to do is take a broken-in tester for a drive.
In any event, he went to look/drive it when the first models started coming in and was disappointed at the "take it or leave it" options combinations currently being shipped. He also got a chance to do a careful look-over of one car that had around 2 weeks worth of test drives on it and said that its leather was in miserable shape already.
He's getting his with cloth.
-hh
The leatherette is pretty much the same kind found in BMW's (of course) and is quite durable and even looks like real leather. It is black in colour (kinda charcoal, actually).
My Cooper 'S' will have leatherette. (Yes, I have sat in a Mini Cooper with leatherette and was pleased to find how much it looked like real leather.) I plan to fool my friends into thinking it's real.
All MINI dealers should have an S to test drive - as well as a base MINI Cooper. My biggest beef was this dealer had $1,500 in mandatory accessories tacked on to every S. Most of the ones they had in stock had a lot more garbage tacked on than that. I wanted an electric blue S, the one I could have bought came to almost $28k with accessories - not worth it at all - MSRP on it was $23k. That was the main reason I got my deposit back - I can't stand that type of B.S. - plus these waiting lists are dwindling fast. There are no waiting lists for a base Cooper and it's not unheard of to be able to walk in to a dealer and buy an S today. My dealer had a silver S with premium and sport packages a week ago that anyone could have bought.
Bottom line - The MINI is a nice little car that is not that big a deal - nothing like the New Beetle or PT Cruiser was when they first came out. Wait a few short months (if that long) and what little hype is left will be gone.
I'll probably revisit purchasing an S in a year or two - I'm really interested in what the aftermarket will have for it. An S with a little suspension work and around 230 HP under the hood would get me interested again. It will take at least that to pry me away from my GTI.
To be honest, I don't know if the beaten-up interior he saw was leather or leatherette. He said leather, but...well, you know how it goes. The only thing we can say for sure is that it wasn't cloth.
(Or is it not too late to option it?)
Its supposedly "too soon". Dave's quite unhappy with how his Mini is handling their options: he was told that if he wants a specific combination (ie, a custom-order), he can't do that until 2003.
If what he was told is correct, what they've done is that they've made "standard" options packages and there's really only like a half dozen different configurations to choose from, so if you really want Color X and Option Y & Z, you're going to have to eat Options A & B along with it.
Did you run into this problem at all, or did your list of wants match up with what they were offering? I'm wondering if its a "local dealer" type of problem.
-hh
To say its for looks, smacks of "style over substance" Poseurism.
To say it enhances performance, smacks of doubt, because my 911 does fine with a single exhaust, as do many other cars.
To say it costs less money to maintain, smacks of naivety.
So why bother?
-hh
If you ask me, people should not be allowed to customize their vehicles in any way that doesn't smack of "substance over style", cost less to maintain, or in any way that might make it dissimilar to a Porsche 911.
It makes me sick to see that PT Cuiser w/o a small V8 ,Hollywood mufflers and duals.(I'd never buy Chrysler)
I'm afraid to put a Y pipe on my new wheels as it might void the warantee.
Also, if some dude can make noise with a Harley ,why are Hollywood glass pack mufflers illegal in some states? I live in Maine.
Your sarcasm is noted.
But it does revive the question as to why some people go to such amazing lengths to "tart" up their vehicles with garbage that doesn't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to actual performance. Its the old attitude that a sticker can work magic, and that looking like you have a fast car is more important than actually having a fast car.
And while I'm sure its been mentioned enough times such that everyone is sick of it, there are webpages that highlight this kind of tomfoolery that has been an embarrassment IMO to some Marquees, including some which are the subject of this specific TH list.
As such, I consider a dual exhaust refit to be a symptom of a very bizzare disease. It would appear to me that what separates the Men from the Boys is that the latter are more interested in garnering attention than actually garnering performance.
And of course, the irony is that for all of us - myself included - our biggest bang for the buck in being able to "go more fast" is not any aftermarket widget, but instead, its a good performance driving school to improve our driving skills.
JMO; YMMV.
-hh
Here in Canada, dealers cannot sell above M.S.R.P., and most seem to not be forcing "packages" on customers. They DO offer these packages to customers who cannot wait that extra time for their own specced Mini, and will take ANY Mini thrown at them.
As for dual exhaust:
Some Mini owners have relocated their exhausts.
http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?s=9acecf6bc62cc62abb9c9dd6802c5bb9&threadid=7538
You can also wait for the John Cooper Works version of the Cooper 'S'. (From what I heard, it will have the exhaust pipes relocated from the center, to one on each end, like the above picture).
Now, before I get ahead of myself, let me say that I do agree with you, to a degree. A 3-foot wing on an otherwise stock Honda Civic EX is just plain silly, but the man here just wants dual exhaust on his MINI! I just can't see that as being outrageous or "tart"ish.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It is opinion, but I think that any sort of wing on most sedans look silly, as are the claims made. For example, the wing for the Infinity I35 claims that it nets out the car to "zero lift". That's great, but zero from what? maybe 30 lbs? If so, that's a ... but the man here just wants dual exhaust on his MINI! I just can't see that as being outrageous or "tart"ish.
I agree that its not that bad on the "tart" scale, but wait until he puts the 4" tips on it :-)
Personally, I wouldn't bother to make such an exhaust change unless there was some bottom-line performance benefit behind it that was really worth chasing after.
The nerve of the manufacturer of such a marvel of automotive technology to make their car look decent!
Actually, paint is corrosion resistance, so it does serve a useful purpose. Its not that I don't mind (or don't want) having a good looking car. Instead, its that I simply refuse to let the automobile be a Golden Calf that I must worship: Its a commodity that I'm going to consume, and not allow let it consume me. Perhaps its heresy to say this here, but c'mon! Its just a car!
-hh
Which, to stick on subject, is what I'm interested in the MINI for. OK, so its ridiculously small, but I did sit in it and I think its relatively comfortable as long as you don't need to carry more than one passenger.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S