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Subaru Forester vs Toyota RAV4
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Comments
Both our Subies get in the mid 20s, in terms of gas mileage; not exactly gas guzzlers...
Bob
Your car must be hard on tires because I got 70k miles on the origianl tires on my '96 Outback wagon. :-P 60k on the 2nd set and still looked good when I traded the car.
45+k miles so far on the original RE92 Blotenzas on my '03 Outback wagon.
Only got 50k though on the tiny 13" tires on my '89 GL-10 5 spd. FT-4WD Turbo Touring wagon.
Damn cars are really chewing up the tires! :-D
DaveM
Do you know he best way to go about upgrading them to discs? Estimated cost? I'm wondering if it would be worth the $$.
Thanks!
A part time 4WD system like the Jeep Cherokee had will chew up tires when left engaged on dry pavement but Toyota's and Subaru's AWD systems are far more advanced.
It's true that full-time AWD systems do cause a slight reduction in mpg but only in the 1-2 mpg range.
-Frank
I think you're going to find it to be prohibitively expensive to upgrade to discs. While I agree that discs are better, the difference in performance between rear drum and disc brakes is very slight (fronts do most of the work).
-Frank
My current set has 43k miles on them and have not reached their wear bars. Can't complain.
25.1mpg lifetime average, can't complain there either.
Now that the troll is gone, let's get back to our regularly scheduled program...
-juice
$400/month for 72 months, not good credit. with $3550 down. Figure with your score, you are paying about 10% interest, so you are paying about $25500 out the door for the forester.
I think that is a good deal!
About the credit: the difference between good (700 + Beacon) and 620 beacon is about $50/month.
Or another way:
I just bought a forester LLBEAN for 24900 out the door, put down 4900, aqnd have a payment of 4900. Beacon is 740.
tidester, host
Vibration. It's the tires or balance. I test-drove several Subies when I was shopping for the above-mentioned XS. Two of them had a problem with a vibration from a rear tire, which from my past experience has been a balance issue. To put your mind at ease, I'd test drive another sample or two.
Excluding the times I've towed and driven on sand, my low was 20.7 mpg, not far below the 21 EPA city number. And I commute to the city.
My best is 30.4 mpg, well above the highway number.
I normally get around 22-27 mpg, though my lifetime average is actually slightly above 25.
-juice
-juice
Steve, Host
Perhaps because Toyota owns a share of FHI, they decided to not let these overlap much. They went big and let Subaru stay smaller.
In fact, I bet Toyota makes a bigger Highlander that doesn't compete much with the Tribeca as well.
The one thing that does invite comparisons are the performance the V6 model and the Forester XT offer. C&D hit 60mph in just 6.3 seconds with the V6 RAV4, but their XT models have been in the low/mid 5 second range. Only the Saturn Vue Redline can even come close to either of those.
But even in this performance niche, one has a V6, the other forced induction, and those tend to appeal to different people.
-juice
Perhaps because Toyota owns a share of FHI, they decided to not let these overlap much. They went big and let Subaru stay smaller.
Could be. I would think, however, that Toyota made its decision regarding non-importation of the SWB model well before its recent acquisition of the FHI stake.
I wonder if the SWB model will show up later? Imagine the V6 in that lighter, more agile model? I bet it would be a hoot to drive.
-juice
More so than the 300hp, it could use some starch in the suspension. The 2006 models were raised up about half an inch and have a comfier ride, but it's less sporty now. The XT has 7.9" of clearance, other models 8.1". It used to be 7.5" for all models.
RAV4 has 7.5", so it actually sits lower.
I think a Forester STI could be lowered to maybe 7" or so, with bigger sway bars and higher spring rates. Give it the self-leveling shocks from the LL Bean model so that the rear end doesn't sag with heavy loads, and to keep it level. That would be a hoot.
Forester XT is the king of acceleration, but I'd like to see them fine-tune the handling so it can outrun, say, an X3 Sport Package, in the turns.
-juice
They relaxed the gearing on the M/T models, I don't think the autos changed.
They did gain a bit of boost, about 1psi extra, and went from a claimed 210hp to 230hp. So it should be at least as quick as the original.
A large displacement V6 will have better throttle response, but the V6 is a revver and makes its power high up in the rev band, while the turbo makes peak torque at just 3600 rpm, so in the boost it should pull away, especially at higher altitudes with thinner air.
Both are plenty quick, in the big picture.
-juice
...I havent seen a plot of the V6's torque curve, or determined how much the extra gear in the 5AT will mask any low end weakness...I do know that properly sized turbos can make plenty of low end grunt, once they get up on the boost...fun stuff!...
-juice
After 11 years in a large tip-over prone SUV, I'm looking for something different, but still need the SUV space. My other cars were a muscle car, sports car and sports sedan. I thought the Forester and the RAV4 handled the most like a sports car which I miss driving. I am leaning toward the Forestser XT Limited, but am waiting until the RAV4-V6 comes out and will drive the sport package in that model to really compare. And, then the dealership will have to let me drive it on the freeway, like I did with the two Forester models (X & XT). I do have more problems with the RAV4 than with the Forester - I HATE that rear-mounted spare tire - HATE IT! And, I think the interior is too busy, with the multileveled dash and all those lights and dials - gives me a headache just to look at the brochure! And, it has a little teeny sunroof, compared with the gigantic one offered by Subaru that's almost a convertible!
Interested in reading what everyone else thinks.
Samantha
I used to do stuff like that back in college, mostly to mount subwoofers and audio equipment. :shades:
-juice
The other downer on the Forester and Outback is size. Both are essentially the same in size. Each offers the same width and backseat legroom. You could likely get by with these cars but it would be nice if they were wider and longer. Now, compared to our '96 RAV they are huge. But the new RAV will be even bigger.
So, it may come down to looks and size for us. If these things don't matter to you then go drive the base Forester X (auto) or Outback base (auto). They will currently cost you 21.4K and 24K out the door respectively....here in PA at least. The new RAV likely never be anywhere near the price of the Forester. It may be close to the Outback once it drops from MSRP.
Lefthand side of the page, click on Preferences (under Forum Tools) and it will let you choose a flag (among other things).
-Frank
Oddly, they did a full review of the V6 model in a previous issue, 2 months ago IIRC. :confuse:
-juice
I personally love manual transmissions, so I was skeptical of the 2006 RAV4 and its automatic-only design. However, on a test drive I was pleasantly surprised --- this is a superbly tuned automatic transmission, shifting just when you'd like it to shift, without that auto tranny lag that I hate so much.
There are lots of nice touches to the RAV4 --- like the little handles that let you fold down the rear seats from the rear access, etc. The interior is larger than the Forester, so one would imagine a bit more utility as far as hauling stuff.
However --- the RAV4 is over a foot longer than the previous version, which some might find appealing but it makes it half a foot longer than the Forester. I live in a place where I frequently need to parallel park, so half a foot can make a big difference when it comes to squeezing into a tight spot. Yes, the RAV4 has more cargo space but frankly I've found my 98 Forester surprisingly capable when it comes to hauling loads of stuff.
The 2006 Forester handles really well, as always, but it's clear that Subaru has spent some time tuning things since 1998 --- it's even more sprightly, even more responsive. The 2006 base engine is clearly more powerful and has more usable torque earlier in the RPM curve than it used to --- the RAV4 4-cylinder engine is more than adequate but still, not quite the same feel as the Forester. And the Forester has higher ground clearance than the RAV4.
RAV4 also has a peculiar part-time AWD system that is supposed to instantly activate when needed --- but I prefer the Forester's always-on "symmetrical" all wheel drive --- when I hit that patch of black ice around a blind curve, I don't want to wait even that tiny fraction of a second it might take for the RAV4's AWD system to decide it is needed. I like the fact that the Forester now has limited slip differential standard in every model --- something my 98 model lacked, which would have come in handy during the last snowstorm (it still handled the snow very well, but there were moments when a limited slip diff clearly would have been an advantage).
The clincher, however, for me was Toyota's bizarre inventory allocation policy. In New York, where I live, there are no RAV4 Sport models with side/curtain airbags (absurd, no?) That is something that will likely change --- but it is obviously a stupid attempt to force people to buy the more expensive Limited --- but if you're like me and want sporty performance, you want a Sport, not a Limited, which has things I don't want (leather seats --- never liked that) and lacks things I do want (sport-tuned suspension). What's worse, a Toyota dealer (*****Westchester Toyota --- avoid them like the plague!*****) told me that they had two RAV4 Sports with side/curtain airbags but they didn't --- despite the fact that I TWICE called before making the long journey there from the city to ask them to check it. I believe they were engaging in bait-and-switch tactics --- I actually asked the girl, "Tiffany", what the MSRP was of these supposed RAV4 Sports, and she told me $25,430, *which is what the Sport would have cost with the options I wanted* --- but of course when I arrived at the dealer, they didn't have it, and the salesman explained that "Tiffany" doesn't sell cars so she doesn't know what she is talking about, trying to make it seem like an honest mistake (after a $30 cab + train ride and an hour of wasted time) --- yet the fact that she gave me a fabricated list price and insisted on telling me that she had "checked with the sales manager" makes me think this is part of a calculated bait-and-switch ploy on the part of this dealership. This and Toyota's practice of allocating different vehicles to different markets (so I'd have to go to Philadelphia to get a car I wanted) was the last straw --- I stuck with my tried and true brand, Subaru, and bought a Forester 2.5X Premium at Stamford Subaru --- an *excellent* customer experience, I highly recommend them if you live in the area. No nonsense, friendly, conscientious, straightforward, no hard sell. Amazing.
Good luck with your new Subie.
-ss4
I drove the Rav, CRV, Pilot, and just about every AWD/4WD vehicle and I can honestly say that the FXT out did them all as a complete package. The bonus was that the dealership knew their product and it was a no hassle deal. :shades:
Add in the March $2000 rebate on the X model and it was an easy decision for them. They're paying about $2500 less than a base LX CRV, and the base RAV was even higher, more so after adding in options: roof rack, fog lights on both and airbags & daytime running lights on the RAV. All standard on the Forester. Sure it's due for a makeover, but it's still on-par or better than the competition in most areas, and is by far the best value.
Best offer on the CRV was $500 over invoice, which would be $21,504 + TTL. Add on the roof rack and fog lights (standard on Forester) for another $500, and suddenly you're $2800 more than the Subaru. And the CRV had by far the weakest engine of the three, plus the worst gas mileage. I did like the utilitarian interior design of the CRV, though, better than the RAV's modern dash. Forester was somewhere inbetween, nice and clean though.
I highly disliked the side-opening rear hatch on the CRV and RAV4 - I parallel park regularly and would often not have the huge amount of room required to swing those doors open. I was able to open the Forester's hatch with less than a foot of space between it and the car behind it. Also, the side-opening rear hatches block the curb side of the vehicle, so you have to walk all the way around the hatch when you're loading or unloading, again requiring even more space. The side-opening hatches also allow the rain/snow to get in, while the Forester's hatch provides a nice shelter. Also, there's no lip to the rear bumper on the CRV and RAV, so unless you open the rear hatch, you can't step there to secure anything to the roof rack or to wash the vehicle. And the rear-mounted spare tires on the RAV and CRV stick out farther than the bumper, so if there's an impact with anything higher than two feet or so, the tire and door take the brunt of it.
Sorry about going on like that - can you tell I didn't like the rear hatches of the RAV & CRV?
Steve, Host
I insisted they take $5000 off MSRP(which includes $2000 factory rebate) in order for the price to become competitive with what Honda CRVs go for. I guess to meet their March 31 fiscal year sales goal, they finally caved in. 6 other dealers flat out refused to sell under $19,500, as this is their cost factoring in the $700 holdback. Who knows what Subaru is kicking back for meeting sales numbers, so taking this into account, I really doubt that they "lost money" on my transaction.
Also, when comparing the AWD Forester X to the Honda 2-WD CRV LX, realize that AWD is worth at least $1000. In addition, when you sit inside the CRV, and say to yourself, "wow, this is really spartan", there is a reason. You have to "accessorize" the CRV to a tune of $1000 to make it as refined looking as the base Forester.
Here is a table of what is missing in the CRV LX, with Honda's MSRP as well as street numbers for each accessory. Note that you would have to spend your weekend installing these, as labor is extra:
Honda Accessory Honda MSRP Street Price
Roof Rack $262 $208.75
Security System $228 $170.00
Fog Lights $329 $248.75
Cargo-Area Cover $189 $143.75
Metallic Trim Kit $199 $148.75
Total $1207 $920.00
In addition to these standard Forester X items, I have the following options installed, and still came in below what a base CRV LX sells for. It would take another $400 to make the CRV LX equivalent:
Honda Accessory Honda MSRP Street Price
Auto Day/Night Mirror $279 $215.00
Front Splash Guards $63 $38.75
Cargo Tray $105 $78.75
Rear Bumper Cover NA NA
Chrome Exhaust Finisher $29 $18.75
Cargo Net $42 $31.25
Total $518 $382.5
So all in all, the Forestor really is a "best buy", and those smart enough to not cave in to "herd mentality" and opt for a CRV, will be more than rewarded by the Forester's "fun" drivability factor
Particularly with the current $2000 rebate on the X, you're right - Forester is by far the best buy, and has the lower insurance rate, too. If you got that vehicle for $5000 off the $23,867 MSRP, for a price of $18,867, you got a truly amazing deal! To the best of my knowledge, that's under dealer cost (invoice minus $750 holdback?)! Not sure where they're making a profit on that one.
So now it's back to the RAV4 vs Forrester. It seems like RAV4 is a step above in refinement, and has some nice safety features – vehicle stability control, brake assist, and side curtain airbags. Still, the price difference between the two is $3,500 which makes it very difficult to make a decision. Forrester can be had under invoice, while RAV4 is about $1,000 over.
I’m comparing Forrester X auto (options: auto-dimming mirror, bumper protector, all-weather mats, cargo tray, splash guards) with RAV4 4WD 4-cyl (options: side curtain air bags, alloy wheels, roof rack, floor/cargo mats, cargo cover).
-juice
If you take the $3500 and step up to the XT premium, it's a different vehicle. Have you considered the XT? You might as well compare vehicles in the same price range.
On these two, X Premium (automatic) invoice is 24.1K (23.1K with rebate). XT automatic invoice is $26.7K ($25.7K with rebate), and this vehicle is more comparable with RAV4 V6 4WD Limited. Yes, the X Premium in comparable in price with the RAV4 I’m considering, but it includes the options I don’t really care much about like the moon-roof or CD changer. So I don’t think it helps me to make a decision!!
What makes the base X model such a deal is the 2K rebate plus the dealer’s desire to move it off he lot, so that they are willing to sell below invoice.
I think the other poster is right; Toyota has always had the ability to bypass deep discounts and rebates, and with a new “hot” vehicle they have even less incentive to do so. Bad timing, I guess.
Although...prices for the 06 are about as low as they got for 04 and 05 models, so if you like it, go for it.
-juice