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Which gasoline is the highest quality?
historybuff98
Member Posts: 3
in General
I was a loyal user of Chevron up until a few weeks ago. I purchased a bad tank of gas from them that caused my 2001 Grand Caravan to ping like crazy. Chevron does not even provide a toll free number to call. When I did call, they told me to call later when the Q.C. people were there...Major blow off. Never again Chevron!!
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their sulphur levels average around 700ppm, one of the highest in the western world.
an environmental organization even called for a boycott of their gasoline.
i was a loyal ESSO user for almost 2 yrs when i stopped giving them my business for this very reason. i have since switched to shell and can feel the difference - my car runs smoother than before ...'dont know whether i can attribute that to lower sulphur levels, but whatever the reason ...it runs smoother than before
I have been using Sunoco 94 for some time in my supercharged vehicles, and I thought it was very interesting that a tankful of Amoco 93, put in while on vacation, created some nasty pinging where the 94 had never pinged in 20K miles. Didn't think 1 octane level could prevent pre-ignition so well, but apparently it does.
However, when traveling, I prefer Chevron No computer adjustments needed after a fill up.
If It's in the winter with our oxygenated fuel requirements nothing runs as smooth as Chevron. Not a lot, but it just seems to have a little more power. So if I can get it for the same price, I'll pick Chevron in the winter.
Jim
if you have some slick fuel broker in your area that takes old fuel, pumpouts from failed stations, salvage from roadside accidents and leaks, and doesn't have a refinery to run that slop through, follow their trucks and don't buy from those stations.
I've gotta say all the trucks that refill the stations I go to are getting the raw fuel from the williams or amoco pipeline terminal, and nobody's additives to that mix have caused me trouble in 14 years.
When I was growing up in South Dakota (many years ago) Champlin controlled the only pipeline in the state, and they also refined. So even though there were no Champlin stations in the state, every bit of gas sold there was Champlin.
I would rather trust a large retailer without refining capacity--like QT (which dominates the St. Louis market) and tightly controls its stations than a small independent gas station even if it had a "name" brand on the sign.
Tomorrow I'll call the Sunoco distributor and ask him to explain the Sunoco product line and will report what he says.
it's supposed to have many benefits.
for details pls visit the forum
"is oxygenated gasoline really worth it" for some interesting observations.
That being said, I had an old Plymouth that just died on Texaco and Citgo gasoline. It would run rough and put out white smoke. Chevron, and a local company worked just fine.
I'll never forget a trip to Napa valley where I purchased generic gas in Vallejo. The car just shook. Replacing with Chevron as soon as possible reduced the problem.
It would be best if CR did a test. I would like to know if i'm wasting money & time.
dave
Out of the refinery there are things called 'pipelines'. These are underground and run all over the US. Pipelines may or may not be owned by an oil company. Most of them run interstate, so there are a lot of Federal ICC regulations controlling them. They basically have to make space available to whoever wants to pump product through it, within limits. They only have so much capability, can make long term contracts, etc. But generally cannot say 'I'm not going to pump your product because you are a big competitor. Fed's don't allow this.
Then, there are 'terminals', where the product is pulled out of the pipline into storage tanks. This might be owned by the pipeline or oil company.
Now, how it works. Pipelines do NOT GO FROM EVERY REFINERY TO EVERY TERMINAL.
Oil companys do 'exchanges'. Long term contracts that say 'I'll give you my product out of that terminal if you give me your product out of that other terminaly way over there'. And they balance these exchanges out each month, gallon for gallon, only paying any difference.
Or, oil companys buy product directly out of a terminal.
Continued.....
OK, now I haven't been very near the business lately, but I think now there are 2 grades out of the refinery, 'regular' and 'high-test'. (The oxygenation or some other local regulated blend might also require a separate 'grade' out of the refinery, I'm just not sure of this.) Without lead, you can't boost the octane of regular enough to get the high-octane grade, it has to be refined. (P.S. Avaition fuel is just higher octane gasoline. In a refinery "The good stuff comes out first".) Of course, the mid-grade is just a mix of the two, done at the pump dumping into your car.
Trucks from lots of different oil companys pull up to the loading docks of a terminal. Each oil company specify what additives are put into the truck when it is loaded. There are also companys that own large amounts of service stations, maybe own their own trucks, and they specify their additive mix also. These additives are cleaners, octane enhancers, winterizing additives, oygeninating compounds, and whatever the great government might be regulating for your local market. There are about 85 different blends of gasoline now regulated by governments across the US.
So, in any one location, there probably isn't more than one or two actual separate sources of gasoline. Any difference is because of the additive 'package' the retailer has put into their gasoline or overall level of gas down the pipeline.
You can't call a major brand. It varies too much. You don't know who is running the show. That station could be a 'company owned' (by the company with the big sign out front) or a large local 'jobber', owning dozens of stations - maybe owning the terminal, could still have the brand out front but dictitates the package he is putting in his gas. I know, he is supposed to put in a 'package' the brand company specifies, but how can a company control this. They can't control if he keeps the bathrooms clean, much less know what he is having dumped into his station tanks. And the terminal will load whatever package the buyer specifies.....
There might be company that closly control their product. But don't bet on it.
Find a station that doesn't cause problems, and stick with it.
Terminals. Even though there might be multiple companys pushing their product past them through the pipeline out back (There is no problem keeping product and company ownership separate in a pipeline. Gasoline, diesel, furnace oil, are all pumped down the same pipeline. It's magic.) they don't want to have a large number of tanks just to keep companys product separate. The tanks are just to expensive to do this, plus this just gets into more complex pipe, valves, and pumps in the terminal. If a company wants its product separate they usually build their own separate terminal off the pipeline. And this is expensive.
So, there usually isn't a lot of separate tanks at a terminal. This is why the product in any location is very limited.
As I said several ways in my 3 messages, IT VARIES!!!!!!
YOU CAN'T MAKE GENERAL STATEMENTS ABOUT GASOLINE QUALITY ACROSS DIFFERENT AREAS!!!!!
Additives: In 'general', they are the same. At least the additive that does 'something' is about the same in all brands. As a matter of fact, many are probably the exact same chemical across many brands.
A cleaner/detergent is a cleaner/detergent. An octane booster is an octane booster. A winterizing agent is a winterizing agent. A vapor pressure modifier is a vapor pressure modifier.
YOU ARE BUYING INTO THE 'MARKETING' IF YOU THINK DIFFERENT!!!!!
There may be minor difference, but not great ones. Now, how much they specify at the terminal, the combinations, the general octane of a slug of gasoline - these help make up the variances from brand to brand.
A little history: When fuel injection first started to become rather common on autos, replacing carbs, clogged injectors was a big problem. Some people realized that most gas companys were putting more/better cleaner/detergents into the premium line of gasoline. And this would keep the injector from clogging. People were buying premium when not needed for the octane, only for the cleaning capabilites.
The gov'mint stepped in. Mercedeis Benz (sp) had been running fuel injection for a while and knew a lot about this problem. They already had specs written about how cleaning additives should perform. The gov'mint set a regulation that all gasoline must conform to the MB spec, even for regular gasoline. And this stopped most of the problems with clogged injectors. Also generally kepts the fuel system, valves, etc cleaner.
So, you should be getting a decent cleaner additive from any gasoline, unless the seller is a total crook.
As I was pumping the gas, I noticed it smelled 'strange'. Then I saw the sign that said it contains 10percent methanol (or ethanol), whichever corn refined alcohol is used in gasoline. On the way out of town, I looked closer at the stations, the ten cents different was between the alcohol and non-alcohol sign bearing stations. Our gov'ment allows a large federal gasoline tax break on alcohol use, and this was the price difference.
Well, by the edge of town my 1984 Toronado (305ci carb motor) started to tell me it didn't like that alcohol at all. Hesitate, no power, almost couldn't pass a car. When I had about a 1/4 tank of this stuff gone, I filled up at a nice shiny Texaco/Mobil/Chevron with some premium. Also started buying octane booster/gasoline de-icer/cleaner and throwing into the gas tank. I kept refueling, attempting to dilute the stuff down whenever I got a 1/4 tank down.
'Driveability' continued to be terrible, even back on the interstate trying to maintain a steady speed it just didn't want to do it.
Problems continued. I think the check engine light even came on. When I reached my destination in Florida, I was looking for an Oldsmobile dealership as I was driving into town. I thought that alcohol had probable eaten through a diaphram on some sensor or loosened crud in the fuel lines and stopped the carb up. Figgered I was into renting a car while this thing laid around an Olds dealer as I sat on the Florida beach.
But, the next morning, I started the old Toro up, the check engine light stayed off, and it was back the same as before. It 'cured' itself.
I looked for the methanol signs much more carefully as long as I owned that car....
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/techrongas/successbig3.shtml
Now I'm not sure that this is an endorsement on the quality of Chevron's fuels by the manufacturers or just a convenient and cost-effective arrangement that they have had with Chevron for all these years. But it does lend to the "warm-fuzzy" feeling that some customers have for Chevron (me included), whether or not there is anything to it.
In any event, here in Central Florida I have a choice of Chevron or Texaco, and I have tried both, and the Texaco 87 octane makes my Tahoe ping, where the Chevron does not. When I lived in Colorado, Conoco made my truck ping, and Texaco did not (but I had to use 89 octane because the "high-altitude" 85 octane caused really bad detonation). And when I lived in New England, I was loyal to Mobil because I never had any fuel problems with it from any station (same cannot be said about Gulf and Shell).
I believe that for the most part all gasoline is pretty much the same except for some of the proprietary additives and the "cleanliness" of the fuel coming out of the pump at any particular station. So go with what works...
I would much prefer to deal with a large vendor who does not refine (such as QT) than some old mom and pop station no matter what the brand of gas featured.
In the St. Louis area, at least, QuikTrip controls prices by being the first to jump fifteen or twenty cents and then by letting the price drift downward. Since they control the market they can do this. People like their stations because they're well lit, always have cop cars outside (plenty of corporate support for police, place to do paper work, etc.), are clean and give good service. Few people care if the gas is the same as Clark, since Clark stations are dirty, grimy and run down. For most people it's retailing ambiance, and the knowledge that the product and service will be uniform that gets them in the door.
.75 * .75 * .75 = 42% cruddy gas after three 1/2 tank fillups, while if you do it after running down to 1/4 tank you obviously have 25% cruddy gas.
I've used ethanol fuel in my cars, and i don't think i can really tell the difference. Of course those are fuel injected and both are pretty "techy" motors.
The chevron link is interesting. I figure using chevron in my car costs me $30 a year over a ma & pa shop, so i'll keep using it for peace of mind.
dave
On another point, the development of cleaning agents to accommodate fuel injection technology was a major oil industry project in the 1980's as others have indicated. It's my impression that the prevention of deposits on the intake valves was the major part of this endeavor and that control of injector nozzle contamination was a lesser problem.
Bolivar, you left your audience hanging when you mentioned that gasoline, diesel fuel, and others are transported through a common pipeline. You are correct, but would you care to elaborate as to how this is achieved?
When I make fuel purchases, I usually purchase ten or twenty dollars worth, but because of the price of fuel now-a-days, I had to cut back on my fuel consumption by making small purchases on a regular basis.
At the time of the attempted purchase, I though that I would get rid of a bunch of rolled pennies, which had my name and address on them, by using them to make the fuel purchase.
I went up to the window where the attendant was at and placed ten rolls and a dollar bill on the counter and asked for six dollars on number (whatever pump I happen to be at the time). The attendant refused to accept my currency stating that he couldn't take all that change. When I asked him why, he stated that he had too much change in his drawer. I then said that, "So now you'll have more change." He said, "No!" I picked up my rolls and drove down to the Shell Station on W. 73rd. and Lorain Avenue where I had no problem making a purchase using the rolled coins.
This incident occurred while the attendant was on the phone. Lately, four things always occur whenever I go to that BP station. The attendant is always on the phone. He/She is in the back doing whatever. Most of the pumps are broken. Finally, there is always someone outside trying to bum money with the story that he works for N.A.S.A. and that he needs to have money to get to work so they can launch the shuttle or something.
On various occasions, whatever attendant happened to be on duty, I was asked if I wish to donate to some screwball charity. I'm also asked if I want pop or chips.
I'm there to buy gasoline and with U.S. currency. I shouldn't have to put up with this kind of service. I think that your company needs to take another look at practices and policies at this particular station. I'd prefer to go there because it is close to home, but since my money is good anywhere, I'm not forced to patronize this or any other BP station and put up with this kind of treatment.
click here for GEORGE'S ELECTRONIC GARAGE SALES
but different kinds of refined products are separated in pipelines by -
1)Pigs. These are rubber balls put into the pipeline between different products.
2)Water. Yep, just throw in a slug of water between products.
When they pull the product, there is some way they know when they hit the water, I don't know how they do it. The water is pumped into a 'sludge' tank. And, of course, this is a mixture of just about everything because you get some of the first product, water, and some of the second product. This is can then be trucked to a re-refiner, or it could be sold to something like a trash burning facility, or something else with a huge furnance that isn't very particular about what kind of fuel you feed it. And it's burned there.
Now, do you-all understand some more about the variability of motor gasoline sold at your corner station?
I might have picked up water. But I have seen what water will do. Very much of it will totally or almost totally stop a carberator auto engine. I put in enought de-icer additive from Walmart that it should have picked up a small amount of water and pulled it through.
And, with ethanol, I think it should also combine with water and pull it on through the engine. (The de-icer stuff is 90% some kind of alcohol. Alcohol will 'attach' to water, keep it from separating, and you can burn it out.)
I don't think it was dirt, this should have stayed with me.
I pulled a canister type fuel filter from a friends car after he almost didn't get home with it from a trip. We dumped the canister and something almost like jelly or jello came out. We think he got some ethanol and it de-sludged the fuel tank and lines. Then this stuff almost stopped up the fuel filter. The filter did save his injectors from clogging.
My problem happened in mid or late 1980's, the 1984 Olds Toro was a relatively new car. I sold it in 1991, and it was well before this. And, I just remembered it was a 307ci, not a 305 as I said before.
of course, that's from reading, not from whacking a valve button in a control house when the buzzer goes off....
Methanol
Isopropyl (Isopropnyol)
The first one was used first (I think) and is cheaper. It's aslo corrosive to fuel systems and, in my opinion, should be pulled off the market completely.
The second one (Isopropyl) is much better and safer and is only about $1 for a 12oz bottle.
Various companies/brands make both kinds so you have to read the labels carefully. I like to go to Walmart and buy 4-packs of Isopropyl gas drier for about $3. I use about 5-6 each year ... mostly in the winter.
--- Bror Jace
The Cleavelander
On January 2, 2000 between 12 noon and 12:30 P.M., I attempted to purchase six dollars worth of gasoline at the B.P. station located at the southeast corner of the intersection of Lorain Avenue and Fulton Rd in Cleveland Ohio. This is my regular fueling point as I live near by.
When I make fuel purchases, I usually purchase ten or twenty dollars worth, but because of the price of fuel now-a-days, I had to cut back on my fuel consumption by making small purchases on a regular basis.
At the time of the attempted purchase, I though that I would get rid of a bunch of rolled pennies, which had my name and address on them, by using them to make the fuel purchase.
I went up to the window where the attendant was at and placed ten rolls and a dollar bill on the counter and asked for six dollars on number (whatever pump I happen to be at the time). The attendant refused to accept my currency stating that he couldn't take all that change. When I asked him why, he stated that he had too much change in his drawer. I then said that, "So now you'll have more change." He said, "No!" I picked up my rolls and drove down to the Shell Station on W. 73rd. and Lorain Avenue where I had no problem making a purchase using the rolled coins.
This incident occurred while the attendant was on the phone. Lately, four things always occur whenever I go to that BP station. The attendant is always on the phone. He/She is in the back doing whatever. Most of the pumps are broken. Finally, there is always someone outside trying to bum money with the story that he works for N.A.S.A. and that he needs to have money to get to work so they can launch the shuttle or something.
On various occasions, whatever attendant happened to be on duty, I was asked if I wish to donate to some screwball charity. I'm also asked if I want pop or chips.
I'm there to buy gasoline and with U.S. currency. I shouldn't have to put up with this kind of service. I think that your company needs to take another look at practices and policies at this particular station. I'd prefer to go there because it is close to home, but since my money is good anywhere, I'm not forced to patronize this or any other BP station and put up with this kind of treatment.
As far as rolled coins go, I must say on behalf of all people who work or have worked retail: "Thats what banks are for."
I also dont see how that or any of the other incidents you describe are discriminatory.
This law was created so merchants could not undermine legal tender by demanding gold, silver, ect.
Rat them out to the US Dept. of Treasury and they will start an investigation.
Go ahead, try to pay your taxes with all pennies & nickels!
dave
As far as rolled coins go, I must say on behalf of all people who work or have worked retail: "Thats what banks are for."
I also dont see how that or any of the other incidents you describe are discriminatory. "
I'm sure if we were from the same background, he wouldn't have racially profiled me. He figured that I might stick him with a rolled up piece of pipe.
And I agree on the whole bank thing. Take your coins to the bank and get paper $.
also, over time as the engines ages and accumulates mileage, octane requirements MAY change. this depends on how well the car has been maintained.
i have see a lot of people driving older cars that still use 87 octane ...some of them said that they switched to 89 octane, and after using a brand product like chevron techron concentrate of redline si-1 fuel system cleaners, it helped them switch back to 87 octane without any problems.
something worth thinking about ...