I live on the West Coast. Tomorrow I hope to place an order with my dealer for a grey or red 6s with AT and sports package. He said he can request first choice of cars that come into the Northwest. He thought a new shipment would be here by March 1 (we'll see). The problem is I can't wait too much longer than that. He had already said he could do black, but I didn't want it. I might go back for an Impala if this doesn't work out. At least there I know I can get what I want.
I wonder if the reason the Sport Package is delayed now due to the "sport package parts weren't produced in enough quantity" is because people were somewhat 'forced' into ordering the darn package only because they wanted stuff like Leather/Comfort, Bose, Moonroof and/or SCA. Maybe the popularity of the Sport Package is partly due to its bundling requirements.
I know this is probably covered somewhere else, but do any 6 AT owners, or anyone else that has a sport automatic or "manumatic" in their car, ever use this feature? if so, how does it compare to a regular manual as far as driving pleasure?
i was thinking about which transmission to get, and whether the manual shifting of the automatic even comes close to the real thing. In theory it sounds like a great idea but I never hear of anyone using it (on a regular basis).
I have a Tiptronic automatic in my Jetta, and have driven the Sport AT in both the 6i and 6s. It doesn't really compare to a manual transmission from what I have heard from stick shift drivers (I don't know how to drive stick, and never have). It's just a 'wannabe' stick, pretty much, for fun. Still an automatic. This feature does help in inclement weather somewhat though, more than a fully automatic tranmission does anyway.
My wife's P5 has one. It can be fun, but not as much as a true manual. Still, if you're in one of those areas that has a lot of stop-n-go or have to share a car with someone who insists on auto, it's a decent compromise. You can't start from a stop in anything but 1st, but you can force a downshift (assuming your RPMs are in the range allowed by the computer) before entering a tight turn so you can power out of it. You can also keep in a single gear while going up and over hilly terrain.
between an autostick and a real manual is the torque converter. With any automatic, the transmission is eating up power because there is no direct mechanical link between the engine's power and the transmission's output shaft. The engine's power has to go through a fan shaped device spinning in transmission fluid. There is none of this kind of junk with a manual (or a real "autostick" like the sequential 6 speed available in the MR2).
I knew there was no torque converter, but couldn't find the right words to explain it amist my busy day. I also didn't know how the torque converter worked before now, or that it was emersed in transmission fluid. Thanks.
True, it's still there in the autostick-equipped AT. But it feels different when in autostick mode than it does in regular auto mode, as if the torque converter were locked up (engine speed is more directly tied to wheel speed). If I let off the accelerator, I feel more engine-braking while in autostick mode. I don't get the coasting feeling like I do in regular auto mode.
However, this is just my observation and I may be wrong.
I got the AT simply because I drive way to many miles in a variety of traffic to want to cope with the MT. I took an MT car on a trip once and couldn't stand it. If my job didn't require me in the car so much, perhaps it'd be different.
You CAN start in first or second, but nothing else. No biggie - who starts in third anyway? I just got done with an 800 mile trip with my new 6s and I LOVE this car. The autostick got plenty of use.
And I COMPLETELY agree with Mazdafun - the auto-stick DOES feel differnt. Even when you slide the shifter over, something does change. I'm glad someone not the only one who feels this way.
The shifts themselves are at a similar interval to a manual, but there's no matching revs or slipping the clutch, which is part of the 'connected' feel you get with a MT. It won't let you downshift if the next gear pushes close to redline or (I think) upshift if the engine might bog badly or stall.
Just like anything else, the smile factor improves with practice and familiarity. Let's face it - most of us (not all, obviously) have little or no experience with a manuamatic. It has its quriks, and it is a slushbox (locked or not, the torque converter is there), but once you learn the nuances, it's quite a bit of fun and creates a good compromise. To dismiss it after 5 minutes of playing is a mistake IMHO.
The autostick, manumatic- whatever you want to call it. I think it's the worst of both worlds.
It's all of the innefficiencies and unreliability of an automatic yet without the control and low cost of a manual. No matter what you hear, the manumatic is hardly a clumsy substitute for a real manual. The 4cyl manual will beat the 6cyl automanual to 60, even if you do transmission-damaging torque braking. You will not get the same feedback from the auto- and that's what makes the '6 fun- driver interaction. The mileage is much better in a manual, and while clutches wear, manuals never break. Improved mileage aside, it'll still cost you $800 less up front.
Automatics numb the driving experience, which is probably the reason you like the '6 in the first place. If you know how to drive stick, it's a much more sensible option.
Contrary to what some people say/think, safety for me is a major consideration. That is why I am so adamant about want the SCA and was so ticked because I couldn't get them unless I also got the Sport Package. According to that email I got from Mazda, though, that should change in April. SCAs should be available with no other option requirements.
As I've said - the auto-stick is a compromise and in no way replaces the manual. It is a different experience entirely. Not as connected as an MT, but not nearly as disconnected as the AT.
Practicality aside, if you want the best connection to the road and the best driving experience - get the manual. Period.
But what reliability issues do you refer to with an automatic? I've had several - some with 150,000 miles on the same AT fluid and not ONE problem. No one I know has had trouble. On the other hand, a buddy just dumped 1500 bucks into a new tranny for his MT 3000GT.
Seriously - I haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.
If we're talking about cost - on the back end it's usually easier to unload an AT car and are worth more than an MT.
Automatic transmissions are far more complex and much more likely to fail. While they've improved by leaps and bounds in the past decade, automatics are still inherently much more unreliable. Domestics still haven't made a reliable automatic that I know of- look at last year's 626 auto from Ford or any Chrysler transmission ever. They were all good for 60k miles only.
A manual transmission will not break unless you repeatedly grind the gears or drive like an idiot- and complete and utter idiot at that.
There isn't really much to debate about- manual tranmissions are much simpler, more reliable devices. You could argue that modern automatics (with luck) may last as long as the car, making reliability good enough, but manuals are and always will be more reliable. Let's hope the 6's Jatco automatic is a good one.
You simply can't get more reliable than gears on a lever, nor more direct and connected with the car.
I wouldn't mind learning to drive a manual, but don't think I would get a stick shift car. I have a bad back, and sometimes it hurts to even walk. At those times with a stick shift, I would either be limited in driving distance, or I wouldn't be able to drive at all. Also, heavy traffic (esp. now with all the snow!) gets on my nerves enough. I was stuck on Tuesday, and went 3 miles in 45 mins. I would have gone nuts driving the stick shift, more than likely. With the auto, you just sit back and cruise through.
The benefits of a manual are greatest in city traffic, where automatics are least efficient. Holding and releasing a clutch is not much different the holding and releasing the brake. Actually, I find the brake more tiring on an automatic than I do the clutch on a manual simply because I'm covering the brake in traffic more than pressing (resting) on it.
If you have a bad back or are missing a leg, then of course you wouldn't want a manual. Heck, you'd be best off with a joystick control.
I invite all to participate in the Manual transmissions obsolete? disussion. I'll certainly be reading any replies there.
I have tried to get a friend of mine to teach me how to drive a stick shift for the past 3 weekends. Every weekend, it's snowed here in MD. Maybe I should give up, it seems to be a sign..
I drove manual tranmissions only until I was 34 years old. Also had lower back problems my entire life. When I got my first auto transmission it was like a miracle. My lower back was better within a few weeks and by three months I couldn't believe how much better I was feeling. Sure, it depends on your injury, but clutching in traffic is TERRRIBLE on your hips and low back. More fun?? Not really. I've been back in a stick now fulltime since Jan 6, and already my back is starting to hurt. I can't wait for my new M6s... with auto...
Lower back is where my trouble is too. I still wanna learn to drive stick, but probably wouldn't buy one, as I am in traffic too much and worry about the problem you had.
My left knee is screwed up since last summer, and only seems to be getting worse. So even if I WANTED a stick, at this point I wouldn't be getting one, since that's the "clutch leg." I know how to drive one - my husband had a MT Nissan truck for 12 years that I drove plenty. Bah. Not for me.
It was funny - the other night my husband came with me when I test drove the 6. On the way back to the dealer, I asked him if he wanted to drive. He said "No - you can drive - it's YOUR car. I'll be able to drive it plenty once you get one." I just said "No you won't." The dealer guy in the backseat just laughed.
Regardless of what you say others will buy what they are happiest with, which provides less frustration in heavy traffic and/or their driving styles. Most people prefer an AT because they just want to set the lever to Drive and go.
With the sport tranny they get a little extra fun and that's fine as long as it is a reliable compromise. If a driver abuses an MT they should stay away from sport trannies and regular ATs.
The really bad thing to do using an AT is to try to rock the car when it is stuck in snow or sand. Invariably, the driver will shift back-and-forth and screw up the converter. Then blame the manufacturer.
I guess I don't have any issues with the shortcomings of the sport-shifter.
True, a manual is more fun. But I also ride my motorcycle any chance I get. Nothing but nothing compares to the exhilaration and connected feel you get on a bike. For me, everything else pales on a galactic scale in comparison.
I got my husband to drive the 6. And he liked it... but he liked the Tribute better. Still, it's my car... But I'm afraid he'll have me talked into a Tribute in two-three weeks if the M6s I want doesn't show at the dealer... sigh..
A few weeks ago I was in a Tribute for a week and was sooo glad to get back in my 6. For an SUV, the tribute drives/handles well, but the 6 is just so much more fun to drive. Resist the dark side young jedi.
Okay, so I'm car shopping for a new car for sometime this year. My main criteria are:
- Hatchback - 4 door (if available) - V6 would be nice, but would do with a 4 - Manual
I've been driving a manual 1991 Nissan Maxima for the past 8 years, and while it's been a very reliable, great car, I need the additional cargo flexibility of a hatchback I've found. Regular trunks don't fit the kinds of stuff I often find myself carrying.
So here's my short list:
- Mazda 6 ($23k) - Mercedes C230K (2-door hatch, MSRP around $25 k) - Used Saab 9-3 or 900 (current model loses the hatchback) - Hyundai Elantra (4-door hatch, MSRP around $16 k)
Now, I know, look at that list! It's all over the place. That's because there's no rhyme or reason to who or what company offers that fifth door option. I've test driven the Hyundai already and was pleasantly surprised by its feel and build quality. But it's a Hyundai, so that made me stop and think.
Anyway, I will gladly wait for the Mazda 6 hatch, IF IT CAME OUT THIS YEAR. But a whole 'nother year of waiting for it? I don't think my current car will last that long (or my current desires!).
Any better thoughts on when the Mazda 6 hatch is arriving? I read in a new article that in a dealership meeting a week or two ago, Mazda was still telling its dealers later this year for the hatchback, but nobody seems all that certain on the exact timing... Also, am I leaving out any obvious alternatives on the hatchback list I should be looking at?
I know, I know... It's no fun to drive at all. We test drove it and it's...it's a truck! Dang. Of course, I'm told we could get a dog if we got the Tribute... it's a bribe! I could get a small dog and just put a towel down in the back of the 6.. And just who is paying for this thing!? Me!!!
Want an automatic ...size 12. Up to you if you think that's fat or not.
Don't be scared off by the Elantra. It has excellent reviews for a reason. I own a 6s and a Santa Fe. Hyundai is light years ahead of where it was 10 years ago. 23K in my Hyundai and not the slightest problem. So if you can't wait for the 6 Hatch, save a LOT of money and get a loaded Elantra! I was going to get one for my wife, but we decided the Santa Fe would be hers (since she has to be up-county in the ice and snow more than me) and the 6 would be mine.
Boy, Mazda is going to be in trouble when the Acura TSX comes out with all that standard equipment. Mazda has to take any sale it can get and their messing it up with stupid option packages. They finally get a great car and they screw it up. Honda would never do that. As for the Hatchback I can understand the delays for that because it was a changeover from the 626 to the 6. So a wait for the hatchback sounds about right. This is a company that can ill afford to lose sales. They only sold 15,000 cars last month. Kia and BMW are now outselling them. For a car company that has so many good cars they always shoot themselves in the foot. As for the Protege being mediocre sales wise Mazda sold 83,000 Protege's and P 5's combined last year so I'll disagree with that statement about mediocre sales of the Protege. The 99+ Protege was the biggest hit for Mazda in a decade. The Miata came out in 1990.
Hmmm... 40+ silly option packages versus 1 all-inclusive one. Nope, I don't see the point. With the Mazda6, it's easy to find a completely loaded car (a la the TSX's one package), and all the problems are arrising from people not wanting everything (a la the TSX's one package). My car cost me $17,701. That's $9k less than the TSX, and has everything I want save some cheap & easy aftermarket changes.
Please visit the Mazda6 versus AcuraTSX thread. Setting both price and options aside, I don't expect the TSX will be as good as our beloved Mazda6.
"That's $9k less than the TSX, and has everything I want save some cheap & easy aftermarket changes."
They make them all loaded. They aren't going after anyone who doesn't want everything. If Mazda would have made thier car with different trim levels and stuck with them they would fare better in the long run than trying to please every customer. Resale is going to suffer with so many unique vehicles.
17,701! I thought a reasonable equuiped Mazda 6 was going for 20,000. You must have gotten a discount somewhere. As for the Acura it will probably come with Heated Seats, Remote Keyless Entry, Power Windowns/Locks, Climate Control, and 6 CD chager.
Oh yeah somebody mentioned the Altima. How did Nissan sell 150,000 Altima's last year?. Their option Packages are even worse than Mazda's. I saw in a Motor Trend comparo of the Altima, 6, and Jetta they tested the Altima at 27,000 dollars plus. I can understand a Maxima for 27 grand but the Altima heck no. You can get an Acura TL with none of that crazy option stuff.
They aren't going after anyone who doesn't want everything.
How many people here don't want a Mazda6 because of useless options? Moonroof? Leather? I won't fit in a car with a moonroof. People want ABS and SAB, but don't want these other options, and that's the problem. Well, that and the sport package which people seem to strongly like or dislike.
I don't know why Mazda can't make their packages available without having to purchase $1000s in other options that you don't want. And I strongly disagree with carmakers making a consumer purchase some luxury option in order to get a safety feature that should be standard in an all-new-for-2003 car anyway.
I'm really not trying to be a jerk here but to point something out.
Why is it that your posts often sound as if you're talking down to people or have an antagonistic bent to them? Maybe you don't realize it, but several posts we've exchanged or I've seen sound as if they're coming from the negative.
Case in point:
"Once again proving you aren't a TSX customer anyway."
You make it sound like that's a bad thing. It isn't.
Again - this is not intended as an attack or ridicule.
I DON'T WANT the whole sport package, just parts of it. I don't want the 17" wheels, the black leather, or the body cladding.
I DO WANT the BEIGE leather, Moonroof, Rear Spoiler, Fog Lights, and SCA. Bose system is not a must-have. Standard stereo is fine with me.
Hopefully, come April, these things will be possible. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
The more choices the customer has, the better. Sure - they could have a few standard trim/option lines, and those could be what the Dealers get on their lots for those people who don't care about customizing, etc. But for those who DO know exactly what they do and do not want, and don't mind waiting 4-8 weeks to order a vehicle, special factory orders should not be a problem. It's my $20-25,000 - I should have a choice as to how it's spent.
Comments
He said he can request first choice of cars that come into the Northwest. He thought a new shipment would be here by March 1 (we'll see).
The problem is I can't wait too much longer than that. He had already said he could do black, but I didn't want it.
I might go back for an Impala if this doesn't work out. At least there I know I can get what I want.
Has anybody seen one first hand yet???
The Sepang Green looks more silvery than green to me.
<grumble grumble grumble>
i was thinking about which transmission to get, and whether the manual shifting of the automatic even comes close to the real thing. In theory it sounds like a great idea but I never hear of anyone using it (on a regular basis).
However, this is just my observation and I may be wrong.
You CAN start in first or second, but nothing else. No biggie - who starts in third anyway? I just got done with an 800 mile trip with my new 6s and I LOVE this car. The autostick got plenty of use.
And I COMPLETELY agree with Mazdafun - the auto-stick DOES feel differnt. Even when you slide the shifter over, something does change. I'm glad someone not the only one who feels this way.
The shifts themselves are at a similar interval to a manual, but there's no matching revs or slipping the clutch, which is part of the 'connected' feel you get with a MT. It won't let you downshift if the next gear pushes close to redline or (I think) upshift if the engine might bog badly or stall.
Just like anything else, the smile factor improves with practice and familiarity. Let's face it - most of us (not all, obviously) have little or no experience with a manuamatic. It has its quriks, and it is a slushbox (locked or not, the torque converter is there), but once you learn the nuances, it's quite a bit of fun and creates a good compromise. To dismiss it after 5 minutes of playing is a mistake IMHO.
It's all of the innefficiencies and unreliability of an automatic yet without the control and low cost of a manual. No matter what you hear, the manumatic is hardly a clumsy substitute for a real manual. The 4cyl manual will beat the 6cyl automanual to 60, even if you do transmission-damaging torque braking. You will not get the same feedback from the auto- and that's what makes the '6 fun- driver interaction. The mileage is much better in a manual, and while clutches wear, manuals never break. Improved mileage aside, it'll still cost you $800 less up front.
Automatics numb the driving experience, which is probably the reason you like the '6 in the first place. If you know how to drive stick, it's a much more sensible option.
If not, learn. It's worth it in this car.
Contrary to what some people say/think, safety for me is a major consideration. That is why I am so adamant about want the SCA and was so ticked because I couldn't get them unless I also got the Sport Package. According to that email I got from Mazda, though, that should change in April. SCAs should be available with no other option requirements.
Post the report/info if you find it, Stretch!
As I've said - the auto-stick is a compromise and in no way replaces the manual. It is a different experience entirely. Not as connected as an MT, but not nearly as disconnected as the AT.
Practicality aside, if you want the best connection to the road and the best driving experience - get the manual. Period.
But what reliability issues do you refer to with an automatic? I've had several - some with 150,000 miles on the same AT fluid and not ONE problem. No one I know has had trouble. On the other hand, a buddy just dumped 1500 bucks into a new tranny for his MT 3000GT.
Seriously - I haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.
If we're talking about cost - on the back end it's usually easier to unload an AT car and are worth more than an MT.
A manual transmission will not break unless you repeatedly grind the gears or drive like an idiot- and complete and utter idiot at that.
There isn't really much to debate about- manual tranmissions are much simpler, more reliable devices. You could argue that modern automatics (with luck) may last as long as the car, making reliability good enough, but manuals are and always will be more reliable. Let's hope the 6's Jatco automatic is a good one.
You simply can't get more reliable than gears on a lever, nor more direct and connected with the car.
If you have a bad back or are missing a leg, then of course you wouldn't want a manual. Heck, you'd be best off with a joystick control.
I invite all to participate in the Manual transmissions obsolete? disussion. I'll certainly be reading any replies there.
Hey Vocus- you won't know until you try
When I got my first auto transmission it was like a miracle. My lower back was better within a few weeks and by three months I couldn't believe how much better I was feeling.
Sure, it depends on your injury, but clutching in traffic is TERRRIBLE on your hips and low back.
More fun?? Not really.
I've been back in a stick now fulltime since Jan 6, and already my back is starting to hurt.
I can't wait for my new M6s... with auto...
It was funny - the other night my husband came with me when I test drove the 6. On the way back to the dealer, I asked him if he wanted to drive. He said "No - you can drive - it's YOUR car. I'll be able to drive it plenty once you get one." I just said "No you won't."
hee hee
Regardless of what you say others will buy what they are happiest with, which provides less frustration in heavy traffic and/or their driving styles. Most people prefer an AT because they just want to set the lever to Drive and go.
With the sport tranny they get a little extra fun and that's fine as long as it is a reliable compromise. If a driver abuses an MT they should stay away from sport trannies and regular ATs.
The really bad thing to do using an AT is to try to rock the car when it is stuck in snow or sand. Invariably, the driver will shift back-and-forth and screw up the converter. Then blame the manufacturer.
fowler3
GM has a great auto tranny that's being used in Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Regal, and Volvo S80.
It is rated for 280 lbs*ft torque and lasts a pretty long time.
Also it is very smart, it always goes into the right gear when you need it.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/app- s/4t65.htm
Also GM builds auto trannies for BMW.
I know the 4-speed unit used in the Cavalier, Grand Am, and most GM models is a pretty good gearbox.
True, a manual is more fun. But I also ride my motorcycle any chance I get. Nothing but nothing compares to the exhilaration and connected feel you get on a bike. For me, everything else pales on a galactic scale in comparison.
Still, it's my car...
But I'm afraid he'll have me talked into a Tribute in two-three weeks if the M6s I want doesn't show at the dealer... sigh..
A few weeks ago I was in a Tribute for a week and was sooo glad to get back in my 6. For an SUV, the tribute drives/handles well, but the 6 is just so much more fun to drive. Resist the dark side young jedi.
- Hatchback
- 4 door (if available)
- V6 would be nice, but would do with a 4
- Manual
I've been driving a manual 1991 Nissan Maxima for the past 8 years, and while it's been a very reliable, great car, I need the additional cargo flexibility of a hatchback I've found. Regular trunks don't fit the kinds of stuff I often find myself carrying.
So here's my short list:
- Mazda 6 ($23k)
- Mercedes C230K (2-door hatch, MSRP around $25 k)
- Used Saab 9-3 or 900 (current model loses the hatchback)
- Hyundai Elantra (4-door hatch, MSRP around $16 k)
Now, I know, look at that list! It's all over the place. That's because there's no rhyme or reason to who or what company offers that fifth door option. I've test driven the Hyundai already and was pleasantly surprised by its feel and build quality. But it's a Hyundai, so that made me stop and think.
Anyway, I will gladly wait for the Mazda 6 hatch, IF IT CAME OUT THIS YEAR. But a whole 'nother year of waiting for it? I don't think my current car will last that long (or my current desires!).
Any better thoughts on when the Mazda 6 hatch is arriving? I read in a new article that in a dealership meeting a week or two ago, Mazda was still telling its dealers later this year for the hatchback, but nobody seems all that certain on the exact timing... Also, am I leaving out any obvious alternatives on the hatchback list I should be looking at?
May I recommend the RSX or Protege-5 then? Or, conversely, if you want to wait, the Mazda3 hatch (successor to the Protege) will be out too.
how many of you here who do not want a manual tranny are
1. overweight?
2. underweight?
2. just about right weight!!
Of course, I'm told we could get a dog if we got the Tribute... it's a bribe!
I could get a small dog and just put a towel down in the back of the 6.. And just who is paying for this thing!? Me!!!
Want an automatic ...size 12. Up to you if you think that's fat or not.
MT vs. AT is a subject that can easily hijack any discussion! ;-)
Please visit the Mazda6 versus AcuraTSX thread. Setting both price and options aside, I don't expect the TSX will be as good as our beloved Mazda6.
They make them all loaded. They aren't going after anyone who doesn't want everything. If Mazda would have made thier car with different trim levels and stuck with them they would fare better in the long run than trying to please every customer. Resale is going to suffer with so many unique vehicles.
Oh yeah somebody mentioned the Altima. How did Nissan sell 150,000 Altima's last year?. Their option Packages are even worse than Mazda's. I saw in a Motor Trend comparo of the Altima, 6, and Jetta they tested the Altima at 27,000 dollars plus. I can understand a Maxima for 27 grand but the Altima heck no. You can get an Acura TL with none of that crazy option stuff.
Subaru WRX wagon (It's really a hatchback and it's fast and handles well.)
Jim H.
How many people here don't want a Mazda6 because of useless options? Moonroof? Leather? I won't fit in a car with a moonroof. People want ABS and SAB, but don't want these other options, and that's the problem. Well, that and the sport package which people seem to strongly like or dislike.
Why is it that your posts often sound as if you're talking down to people or have an antagonistic bent to them? Maybe you don't realize it, but several posts we've exchanged or I've seen sound as if they're coming from the negative.
Case in point:
"Once again proving you aren't a TSX customer anyway."
You make it sound like that's a bad thing. It isn't.
Again - this is not intended as an attack or ridicule.
I DO WANT the BEIGE leather, Moonroof, Rear Spoiler, Fog Lights, and SCA. Bose system is not a must-have. Standard stereo is fine with me.
Hopefully, come April, these things will be possible. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
The more choices the customer has, the better. Sure - they could have a few standard trim/option lines, and those could be what the Dealers get on their lots for those people who don't care about customizing, etc. But for those who DO know exactly what they do and do not want, and don't mind waiting 4-8 weeks to order a vehicle, special factory orders should not be a problem. It's my $20-25,000 - I should have a choice as to how it's spent.