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Comments
MPV already lost because it's just a tad too small. (I need to haul that 4x8 sheet of drywall/plywood, etc.).
Haven't test drove Windstar or Sienna yet, but we did visit Honda yesterday.
I don't get this 'months' long waiting that I'm reading about....we we're told maybe 2 weeks if we tell them what color and trim we want. He said no deposit is necessary, he'll call us when something comes in - it's not as bad as it sounds. They're just not keeping them on the lots.
Price? No negotiations. He stated it flat out. MSRP, take it or leave it.
Hm. 2002 Odyssey EX at $26,750? Not too shabby at first glance. Sure, add taxes, another $1200 for extended warranty, and $500 for anti-theft, I'm probaby looking at about $30,000.
Still going to look at Sienna and Windstar, but the Windstar's reliablity record looks an awfully lot like Dodge Caravan (been there, done that), and Sienna's price is probably not going to beat out Honda by THAT much.
We'll see....
Minivan XYZ may be better for one family then minivan ABC. For another family minivan ABC may be better. It depends on how you want to rate, give weight to, the various features for your own particular situation. Also you would take into account such things as do you want to wait months for the minivan or pay that much. Maybe your brother-in-law owns the dealership of XYZ and can get you a very good deal. Also if you buy any other car then from him you are going to have a fight with the wife.
Perhaps one minivan has a better drivers seat for you and you would give this 100 points. The fact that the other minivan has a magic seat may rate 0 points with you, because you have little use for it. So when you add up the points it is going be very different for one family versus another.
I just came from an '00 Windstar SE (two year Ford lease) into an '02 Ody EX. Both are fine rides, but different in character and features.
My number 1 reason for the brand change was the magic seat. We do the 'passenger to cargo conversion' way too often to continue lugging 130lbs in and out. Since then we have come to appreciate the crisp handling, overall interior layout, etc. So far, knock on wood, it runs great.
But the Ford felt more upscale. Don't know if it is the feel of the materials, layout, colors, etc. It just somehow feels 'richer'. We had several weeks overlap, so it is not just 'memory lapse'. The drivers seat is much more supportive (better lateral support due to contours), power lumbar better positioned, longer lower cushion provides better thigh support. The power sliding doors moved smoother and seat better. Interior switchgear is very well lit at night. Overdrive switch is electric, so no hunting for tranny lever detents, etc. My daugher misses the rear audio system.
We had a soft transmission failure early in life and had to have the unit replaced. But the dealer loaned us a replacement van on day one, so we barely noticed the disruption. Otherwise, reliability (2 yr, 31k miles) was bulletproof. Cannot tell you what the future will bring, however. I sold it out from under Ford at the end of the lease to someone at work, so maybe I can tell you what happens at a future date.
Bottom line prices are comparable, when you factor in discounts and rebates on the initially higher priced Ford, plus do a features comparison.
Yes, maybe we were exceptionally lucky from a reliability standpoint, but then again, I bought the Ody with some reservations after reading thousands of posts here. I hope everyone who reads this takes it as an honest assessment from someone who has a stake in both brands. I also had a great '97 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport, but Duane didn't ask about that....
Steve
Why buy smaller minivan with poorer gas mileage, less power?
Odyssey most desirable minivan explain waiting list to buy Odyssey. No other minivan has waiting list.
It also means, for the vast majority of minivan shoppers, a reasonable priced reliable van with good cargo capabilities and the normal luxury necessities attract the most demand. (I.E. the Honda Odyssey)
For me and certain others, I've come to expect a little more class in my minivans. I currently have a 2001 Town & Country Limited, and after a 1988 Plymouth Grand Voyager and a 1996 Town & Country LXi, I had come accustomed to memory seats and mirrors, auto dimming mirrors, and now I've come accustomed to power doors, three zone auto temp control, power trunk, etc.
Does that mean the Odyssey is bad? No, not at all. I happen to have a Honda of my own. A van like the Odyssey can't be labeled bad when it is such a sought after vehicle. Did Chrysler miss the middle market with offering too expensive vans? I say yes, and now they're paying for it with offering a normally $36,000 Chrysler Limited van for only $30,000. Bad for Chrysler, but good for me.
I guess the overall point I'm trying to make is for me, the Town & Country is the end all, be all van FOR ME. For others, it's the Odyssey, Windstar, Montana, etc. We all value different things in a van, but we shouldn't solely say the best van is whichever one has the longest waiting list. For some that me be true, but definitely not for others.
Jerry
I'm new to this concept. Are these 3rd party warranties for real? Are they honored by Honda? I'd be more than happy to save a few hudred bucks on this as long as they work>..
Thanks,
Also, the Sienna will be all new for 03 - Honda will probably see what special things they do and then try to top for the next year.
YMMV.
Why should a buyer consider alternatives? Because it's the smart thing to do. If you did, and then chose Odyssey, good for you, but don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion. Why?
What if you have 3 kids and want to carry lots of cargo? The Odyssey's layout doesn't work well for families with 3 kids. Maybe the next generation could offer a split folding 3rd seat?
What if your passengers get claustrophobic, only the MPV offers windows that truly open.
What if you can't afford it? Not everyone has a $30k budget.
What if you don't like to be nickel-and-dimed? Add a roof rack, mud guards, fog lights, extended warranty, etc. and the price creeps up quick.
You speak of wait lists as if there were a GOOD thing? I see arrogant dealers that only offer a demo for test driving as a major setback, personally.
Where is the moonroof? To me that's a pre-requisite, so right there some people would rule it out. I'd shop for an aftermarket one, but again, that price starts creeping up.
It's a good van, a great van even, but it's not the best choice for everyone. What if you have a $20k budget and 3 claustrophobic kids? Even if you stretch to afford an Odyssey, can you also afford an extended warranty?
Here's what I would want, for instance:
EX with leather, $28,690
Aftermarket power moonroof, $900
7/100 warranty, $875
fog lights, $306
splash guards, $56
cross bars for roof rack, $115
$30,942 before tax, or $32,489.10 with MD sales tax. I used Handaparts.com prices for the accessories. And to be honest, I'd really want the tow package, too, $429.60 plus installation (not cheap). Plus I forgot shipping for all that stuff.
That's how I'd want it. Over $33 grand, and by the way that's not fully loaded.
-juice
I can see many people choosing competetion over Odyssey but it is no doubt #1 minivan right now. Probably this is the first minivan which would be worth much more than $2000 after it passes 100K miles! :-)
JP
Pilot may make new wait lists, and possibly relieve the Ody lists a bit. But I think the real competition arrives when the new Sienna gets here.
-juice
My passenger power door sometimes doesn't open when it should or sometimes stops midway, but that I can deal with. Not starting - that's a problem!
Also I am getting horrible gas mileage. Only 300 miles on a tank. My Grand Caravan (3.3) also 20 gallon tank got 400 miles per tank.
I disagree about impact of Pilot, though. My understanding is that Pilot and Ody will be built at same place. So any demand shift may be offset by corresponding supply shift. So Honda may end up with two vehicles it can charge MSRP for (maybe 3 with the S2000).
Which reminds me of something I have been meaning to post. Part of me hated paying MSRP for my Ody, but being objective, looking at similarly equipped Sienna and DC vans invoice prices, price was fairly equivalent. So my question is: with Ody's selling so well, why does Honda let the dealers make all the profit? If you owned Honda, wouldn't you jack up the invoice price and MSRP, to make more yourself, and let dealers sell under MSRP if they had to to maintain sales? I reckon Honda is losing millions by allowing the dealers to take it all.
Would love to hear other opinions about this, especially if anyone has auto world financial insight that I'm missing here.
the Canadian plant for the Pilot and MDX?
JP
".....and the Honda Odyssey was the highest-rated minivan."
Steve
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stangelj - I am sure you are right, Honda's making plenty. But it doesn't answer the question -- couldn't they be making more? Let's say they jacked invoice price of EX-L up $1500, with MSRP then $29,750? People would either pay it, or dealers would cut back their asking price to sell them. My point is that, if I remember my basic college econ course, if demand outstrips supply, raise your prices until demand=supply. This will maximize profit.
Ody production will be much higher, since it doesn't have to share space with the MDX. Demand will slow naturally because it isn't new any more. Don't get me wrong - they'll still sell every one they make. It just won't be at MSRP, nor will they have the wait lists.
BTW, I mean the NEXT Sienna, not this one.
-juice
The Honda is already pushing my price limit, though.
-juice
possible interference with the computerized keys?
let us know what you find out.
I think the Odyssey was the top pick overall, but the Sienna was the most reliable. CR blasted out so many press releases yesterday it's hard to sort out exactly what they said.
Steve
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Actually, MPV is 2nd, Ody is a distant 3rd.
-juice
I would think one way to get that dollar figure today is to go to the Edmunds site and look up the cost of their best Gold warranty on one vehicle versus another. The average cost to repair a vehicle would be in that number.
With my 7 year factory Odyssey warranty costing only $900 I have to wonder if the difference in repair cost between the top 5 vehicles say, is that significant. Also the manufacturers fix the vehicles for free anyway in the first 3 years. So certain things get fixed anyway that would normally fail.
My guess is that the difference in repair costs between the #1 Sienna and the #3 Odyssey over a 7 year period is $50/yr or a total of $350 for the seven years. That is just an educated guess on my part.
Therefore when comparing vehicles and deciding which one you want when it comes to the reliability number figure, decide how important $350 is to you over 7 years. There is some hassle taking it in to get it fixed, but then you can often do that when you take it in for the scheduled maintence period.
From Associated Press:
The 2002 Kia Sedona performed worse than any minivan ever put through bumper crash tests conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the group's testing chief said Wednesday.
The Sedona suffered average damage of $2,437 in four tests conducted at 5 miles per hour, earning a "poor'' rating.
The institute also tested three other vehicles: the 2002 models of the Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Lancer and Volvo S40. Each got a marginal rating and suffered an average of $600 to $800 damage in the four tests.
hmmn.
INKY
If you buy and register it in Canada first and then move to the US, the warranty is honored. Also vehicles registered in Canada but travelling in the US carry a valid warranty.
Almost all the manufacturers are imposing the above penalty and additionally many are fining dealers and reducing the allocation of "hot" vehicles to dealers who do sell for export.
There has been tremendous debate about this. In the news and views area, there is a topic on it.
Glad I have Odyssey with much better mileage than most minivan. Odyssey also much better in rear end crash test. Sedona worst minivan ever tested.
You are right to say that anything can happen to any one car, regardless of it's maker. But people wouldn't sell these warranties if they weren't profitable overall.
One of the biggest selling points to us for the Ody is Honda's reputation. If I thought I needed the "extended warranty" (a.k.a pre-paid service contract), I might as well get a cheaper American-made van.
It's about not getting stranded, or at least not requiring unsheduled stops for repairs. At least that is what would matter to me.
If it's covered under warranty then fine, as long as multiple stops aren't required and it's not out of service for long periods.
-juice
Actually since the US population is due to go up to about 500 million in 50 years, there is no way to reduce our fuel requirement and it will go way up anyway. The only way to do it would be to stop emigration where the population would then be about 350 million in 50 years.
The US Congress has made it clear that they will not reduce emigration so their is no solution to the fuel problem, except much high prices in the future. That is also why saving the environment is not going to work very well, unfortunetely.
Increasing the miles per gallon would have been only a temporary stop gap measure and would have resulted in our driving very small autos and our having a much higher injury rate in auto accidents