What's my classic worth?

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

You can make anything go fast if you got the money, but what is the point? That 4- cylinder engine is already stressed in a 912, I can't imagine what you have to do to it to get it to go 140 mph--something very expensive I'm sure. Iy buddy who owns a Porsche shop just rolled his eyes when I asked about performance mods for my old 912. He does them of course but he knows the engine's limitations, too. Let's just say it's not something I would recommend doing unless you are hell bent on racing a 356 in a certain class in vintage racing and you are hell bent on being somewhat competitive.

I'd rather see someone trick out a 914 2.0 quite frankly. You'd have a better race car anyway.

andre1969 · May 2002

...look at it this way; with the trashed engine, that old white Park Ave is just a perfect candidate to have a modern, supercharged 3.8 dropped in! ;-)

I see that Seville is still on the lot, just screaming for a nice old 472 or 500 to be crammed under the hood...

jrosasmc · May 2002

Even though it was a good seller for it's time, do you think a 1978-81 Toyota Celica in mint mint condition would be worth that much? Every once in a great while, I will see one, but it's usually ratty and trashed out. My dad had a '78 liftback when I was growing up in the '80s, so these Celicas bring back a lot of memories for me.

im_brentwood · May 2002

Good point. It can be done, but.. It isnt cheap.

Isell, Here's a better look...

That's called Antelope. Actually a pretty good color for the car!

And Andrea, dont rub it in. I am having a hellish time getting the thing shipped to the new owner.

Bill

ghulet · May 2002

.......I think there is a certain market for them (lots of folks 'mod' them), and they seem pretty popular on the west coast (likely cuz they're mechanically very durable, but are rare in the midwest cuz of RUST). Mint condition though, I'd say worth around $5k? Maybe?

I saw a suuuper nice '84-ish burgandy Supra the other day, kinda brought me back to high school when that was one of 'the' cars to have.

Bill, I actually like that color a lot on the Jag. I like the Biscuit leather, too. Been seeing lots of recent ('95-98) XJs (even L/VDP/Type R) in our local rags for pretty cheap ($19-25k, even for the R). I might have to encourage mom to check one out at that price!!

rea98d · May 2002

"Guess I shouldnt mention that its' an 87 VDP (Last year, best model) with 87K 1-owner FL miles and has a perfect interior and no rust, huh?

))"

Bill, you're torturing me! And not to worry about the color, I know a good body shop man that can make it any shade of British Racing Green I want it ;-)

I can't help much with shipping the Cadillac, but if you need the Jag driven to the new owner, I'd be happy to oblige. I'd even perform a thourogh road test to make sure everything worked, at no extra charge!

wvk · May 2002

I find this amusing because as I look out of the window, there in my neighbor's driveway
is a Jag that looks identical (color and all) to the one posted above. He also
has a red 944. It seems like almost every week one or the other is being loaded unto
a flat bed truck to be delivered to the repair shop while his wife rolls her eyes.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Problem with XJ6s and 944s is often not with the car. These cars are cheap for what you get in prestige value, and consequently they are often purchased by people who cannot afford the maintenance or who do not understand that these are high maintenance cars.

There is a good reason these cars are cheap, that is, people are shy of them because of high repair costs. This lowers the price, and then buyers who normally would not buy a new Jag or Porsche see a chance to own a used one. From there it is usually a downward spiral.

ghulet · May 2002

......there are 'used' Jaguars and Porsches (when does a car end 'used' status and begin 'PIA/old' status?), then there are fifteen year-old orphans (neither the Series III XJ6 nor the 944 exactly qualifies, but they're close). Yes, you can buy either for $4k, but it's likely you'll spend that every year on maintenance.

mminerbi · May 2002

Shiftright, to help me and perhaps others better understand ownership costs, what would you estimate one should budget for average annual maintenance and repair espenses on a 10 year old Jag sedan and a rear engine, naturally aspirated Porsche, assuming they're in good to very good, but not pristine condition when purchased? Also, how about 15 year old examples of each? More specifically, my question relates to maintenance and repairs (combined, but excluding depreciation, insurance, licenses and fees) from years 10-15, and 15-20.

isellhondas · May 2002

Bill, funny thing about colors...maybe it varies by area or something.

Around here, that color is called "Stay around Brown". the car will stay on your lot because nobody will buy that color.

Pretty car, though...

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

mminerbi -- that's a pretty tough question. About all I can say with some assurance is that a normally aspirated rear engine Porsche would cost considerably less to maintain than a Jaguar sedan regardless of the mileage. It is a much sturdier car. You can punish a Porsche mercilessly, flail it to death if you wish, but you can't realistically subject a Jaguar to that level of abuse and get away with it.

Porsche and Jaguar sedans are built for completely different purposes and for completely different drivers. These are contrasting universes.

If I had to guess, I'd say for really nice well-cared for cars, an old Porsche will cost about $100 a month and an old Jaguar $250 a month, if you average it out over a few years of ownership and if you really do all the maintenance. Many people don't do the maintenance and so have lower costs, but really they are just slowly building up problems that they or the next owner will inherit.

My friend doesn't spend anywhere near that on his 90 XJ6 and it runs everyday but really it's a piece of junk by now with so many problems begging for attention.

My 80s Benz, which at that time in history was a much better car than jaguar could ever hope to build, costs me exactly $109 a month over the last few years, and it gets all its services right on time. This cost did NOT include an initial $600 I put into the car to "bring it up to snuff", representing some small negligence by the previous owner.

Of course, if you buy the "wrong" car or one with problems, you can throw my numbers out the window for either a Porsche or a jaguar.

I borrowed an older 944 while my Benz is getting brakes and I've only driven it about 20 miles but I've counted up about $3,000 worth of work it needs immediately, including clutch, rear shocks, running far too hot, hole in muffler. But the owner will never fix those things, just drive it until it strands him. Given the value of 944s, can't say as I blame him.

im_brentwood · May 2002

Exactly. That's the problem with these cars... they get so darned far down the feeding chain that they get totally neglected. Frankly, I only am able to buy 4 or 5 Series 3s a year. Why? 90% of the ones I see that even look nice are just total crap.

They'll end up on some lot for $4 or $5K and need $3K thrown at them right away. The car above sold today. For $7,751 (Probably to someone who I said I'd take $7,500 for it tho) So that's a lot for an 87 S3. But ya know what? That is a low-mile 1 Owner car. No rust, no cracked wood, no bad leather, no major leaks, no bad fans, no bad switches, no bad this nobad that. And that's the problem I have with the older Jags... Yes, I can sell Mint ones. And, if they are worth it, I can get a fair price for em... But the ones worth buying aint cheap. But then, neither is the usual one for cheap ($4K) that's got 2 or 3 Pirellis in the Grave.

Bill

mminerbi · May 2002

Yes, the answer depends on a number of factors, including mileage driven, but your answer puts the expenses in perspective for, I presume, average miles driven (say ~10,000 annually, for an older car that would probably not be a daily driver).

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

If you don't have to "count on" the car for everyday use, perhaps you can slack off the maintenance without too serious consequences.

On my car for instance, I needed front brakes and rotors. I elected for the brand new German rotors and heavy duty mettalic linings, also repacked the front wheel bearings and replaced the brake wear sensors and caliper anti rattle springs and the securing pins.

So my brake job cost more than neighbor Xs brake job, but my car will stop better when the going gets tough. Like I like to say, I want to stop in 63 feet when there's a flatbed truck 64 feet in front me, not stop in 65 feet.

stickguy · May 2002

For an '87 (is this in the netherworld between classic and used car?).

Anyway, whats a ballpark for an '87 911, I think still an s/c that year (it has a whale tail but is non-turbo). 1 (German guy) owner, 32k, supposed to be immaculate. Slate gray color, 5-speed.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

Is this mileage in any way verifiable or is it just what he "says"?

im_brentwood · May 2002

That is a 3.2L Carrera. And being a 1987 it has the G50 Transmission, which is a BIG plus.

Now.. 32K miles? Did you carfax it? Failing that do you have paperwork that documents the miles? Any accidents? Has a Porsche Mechanic done a cold and hot leakdown on it? etc?

If it is a non-turbo (i.e. Correct) Tail, then it doesnt have a lip on the sides of the black rubber piece.

So.. what do they want for it?

Bill

stickguy · May 2002

Actually, my neighbor just bought it, and these are the details he gave up. I haven't gotten nosey enough yet to see what he paid, but it got me thinking, since I always wanted one of these. Assuming it has a clean bill of health, what is it worth with these miles? And if it had "normal" mileage (say 80K) but was in good shape?

I know that he got the car in upper NY (way above Syracuse), flew up and drove it home. He found it on the 'net, but I don't know what kind of eval he did before taking the plunge.

If nothing else, he had a nice shakedown cruise (400+ miles) to uncover any bugs.

stickguy · May 2002

What is the best year to get in a used '911, for the best convergence of price/performance/reliability? A 87-89 doesn't scare me, but what about the early 80s (SC?)?

I've started to lean toward a toy instead of trading up to a fancy sedan, just have to decide how big a trade. Maybe a nice late-80s Alfa convertible instead...

don't tell my wife we're talking again...

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

78-83 SCs are the best bang for the buck I think. You get a reasonably civilized car, a sunroof is almost certain and they run really well. Late 80s Alfas are fine and cheap but they don't go very fast.

rea98d · June 2002

This will probably never be considered a classic, but it touches a soft spot in my heart, and I'll soon be needing a car so...
Little old lady, great grandmother of a girl I work with, has an '82 Mercury grand Marquis, 302, absolutely mint condition, only 41,000 miles. She's wanting $2,000 for it. She's already promised another guy first shot at it for his little brother, but if little brother balks at a grandma car, I'm thinking two grand is a steal! How much would this one really be worth?

Mr_Shiftright · June 2002

Well from my point of view it would be worth whatever the price of a decent good running used car would be worth in your area. In California, that's about $1,500.

Think of it as transportation, not anything that will ever be collected or saved. That way, you get a clearer idea of true value I think. It's a sober view, stripped of any fanciful thinking.

Of course, if someone forks over two large for it, then I'm wrong I guess and it's worth $2,000 or the man's too generous. There really aren't too many points of sale with cars like this (I mean, sales that anyone is tracking) so you have to take your best guess. That's why I base it on the transportation theory, meaning that it can't be worth LESS than that and also without collector value, not too much more.

So maybe it will bear $2,000 and if you get a lot of use out of it then the money seems well spent. But don't "save" it, use it up.

rea98d · June 2002

Thanks for the advice. I think saving one worthless old car for sentamental reasons is enough for anyone, and I already have my '78 filling that role. That's why I'm willing to part with my T-Bird. I'd like to keep her, but I don't want my back yard to look like a junkyard full of old cars that... "No, really man! I'm gonna restore 'em one of these days. You just wait & see." And with the low miles, if I can get 80,000 to 100,000 miles out of it, I think that's at least 2 grand worth of transportation.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2002

If you got a reasonably reliable 80K miles out of it, it would be an absolute steal for $2000 as transportation.

Home work for tonight: Compare and contrast to new car payments.

rea98d · June 2002

I coaxed 80,000 more miles out of my T-Bird after buying it with 130,000 on it. That's a grand total of 210,000 miles. It's still running strong despite burning a little oil, but with the mileage, the insurance man will probably total it. If he doesn't, I'm taking his check, selling the Bird, and going hunting.

Homework? I graduated in December. I don't have homework anymore. OK, OK, in a throwback to my old college days, I'll make up some halfway reasonable bovine scatology (AKA, BS) and have it on your desk by, oh, say, February 30th?

Mr_Shiftright · June 2002

Good, and I'll pretend to read it and then evaluate it with my Grading Dart while blindfolded.

stickguy · July 2002

I'll post this on the real world values also (see which answer I like better)!

I have been toy shopping, and became intriqued by RX-7 converts. Found a private sale, but have no idea of realistic pricing.

a 1989 RX7 convertible, white/blue insides/black top. 2 owners (friends) since '91, all service records (dealer), said to be real clean, never hit, x-cond, etc. A 5 speed.

114,000 miles, engine pretty much untouched.

asking $4,500. Is this ballpark? Anything special to look out for on these?

I haven't seen it yet, all this info is from the owner.

Mr_Shiftright · July 2002

$4,500 is just about retail pricing for a car in good condition. So the price is market correct.

isellhondas · July 2002

One of my favorite cars of all time. Lots of fun for not a lot of money. Make sure it hasn't been overheated....you'll know if it has since it'll smoke and not run well.

michaellno · August 2002

My dad bought a '70 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup new. 350, 2-barrel carb, auto transmission, puce (orange) in color. Paid $2900 for it, I think.

Now, 32 years later, it's got (I think) 150-175K miles. The engine was rebuilt at around 105-110K miles (maybe 10 years ago), and was invovled in a minor, low-speed (< 10mph) accident about 5 years ago. The damage was repaired by a HS buddy of mine who runs a shop that restores old Chevys. Been repainted a couple of times, always with the original color.

Bottom line, it's still my dad's daily driver (my mom told him when he bought it that it had to be his last truck -- guess he took her advice to heart!). What's it worth?

speedshift · August 2002

Saw a '67 Cougar XR-7 for sale, recent metallic burgandy paint that was rather cheesey on close inspection, fairly tired tan interior, corner of rear bumper bent. Didn't stop long enough to inspect interior for options. Asking $5200, which seems high for a car that *might* have been worth $2k as late as the mid-'80s but I don't know. Oh yeah, it had dual exhaust, that's worth a few grand. What do you think?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Cougar --sounds like about $3,250 all day long.

70 Chevy Truck -- probably worth about what Dad paid for it.

blh7068 · August 2002

I have a 71 firebird Esprit, 64k original motor, interior. One correct code repaint was done circa 1985. Its a well optioned bird( vinyl top, tilt, fm stereo with 8 track air, 400 ci motor,rallye wheels). I also have much original documentation for the car. I know its not a formula or a TA, which are worth a lot more. What do you think it may be worth?

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Oh, depending on condition maybe something like $6K-7K ?? If there is body damage or mechanical needs, deduct accordingly, or if the repaint isn't very sharp (overspray, orangepeel, etc) deduct accordingly.

carnut4 · August 2002

Shifty, this is for a friend of mine. Has this Healey that he bought new. Been sitting in his driveway for at least 15 years, not driven. Everything's complete, except it's missing a gas tank. No dents, never any bodywork. Only minor rust on the lower parts around the rear wheel wells. None on the rocker panels. Has the electric overdrive. I rode in this car back in the seventies, and it only had around 100,000 miles when he parked it and stopped driving it then. Something to do with sediment in the gas tank or something.
Anyway, after keeping it for years for sentimental reasons [don't ask] he wants to unload it. Like I said, it's all complete. I figured it to be in #5 condition, and looked in the Old Cars Price guide, [which I know you say is a little high] and according to their formula, came up with $4,000 for this car. What do you think? That seems a little high to me, but I look in Hemmings and elsewhere, and I see restored Healeys going for incredible prices [seems like at least 20,000 for a good driver]. So, realistically, what do you think he could expect to get for this car? And, where would he get the most response, as for placing his ad? Thanks in advance for your input.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

I think he could get $4,000 if he's patient. Of course, the car isn't worth that, in the sense that the investment of a total restoration will not be recovered for a LONG time---but the sight of a decrepit old Healey is irresistible.

I'd advertise it in Hemmings Motor News and make it quite clear that the car needs total restoration. He will get lots of tire kickers, etc, so he needs to be patient.

I'd certainly take any serious cash offer. This is not a gold mine he is sitting on.

Really well restored Healeys can bust $30K and I have seen perfect ones sell in the $40K range. I even saw one sell for $52,000, but it was really something to behold. I doubt $52K could reproduce it, it was beyond perfect in every tiny, minute, obscure detail.

carnut4 · August 2002

I'll pass on the info. I figure if he's offered 3000 he should take it. He was thinking he'd just put an ad in the local paper [Corvallis, OR] and I told him NOOOO! Who'd look for an old Healey here?? At least the Auto Trader, which would cover the region. Anyway, we'll see. Something about those old Healeys-we both have a lot of memories of fun times in Healeys.
By the way, this guy's current driver is a 1985 Mercedes 300D, which he bought in mint condition about ten years ago for 7000, from a local attorney who'd had it since new. He's also thinking of selling it-has a little over 100,000 miles. He's had some trouble with glow plugs or something and is still shocked at the cost of things for it. I think he should keep it myself.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Glow plugs is no big deal--$10 apiece and $75 labor to install.

He should advertise in Hemmings...better yet, send me his contact info and I'll give him the names of people here in California who buy these cars and ship them overseas. Quick cash, fair price, no hassles.

carnut4 · August 2002

My friend doesn't have email, but if you send those names to my email address [in my profile] I'll be sure to pass them on. Sure appreciate your help [even if I did give you a choice of a 59 Cad or a Citroen 2CV]. I've been telling this guy for years he should sell the Healey and get some money for it, since it was just taking up space he didn't have, and he had no plans to restore it.

blh7068 · August 2002

Actually the car is really clean and straight...a hint of overspray from the repaint..but the paint has held up real well. Regardless of model 'bird...all those rubber nose cars(70-73) are hard to find...let alone in good condition.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Well, you keep it looking good and as stock as you can, and it will retain some value. The only reason the prices aren't higher is the low HP issue.

rea98d · August 2002

The local Historical Society (The people that redo those old Victorian houses) had this car donated to them, and they're raffling it off. Ibought a ticket for it (fat chance of me winning!), and I'm just wondering more about the car. The guy selling tickets knew less about cars than he did about houses, so asking him questions didn't accomplish much. The car has an inline-6 engine, from the name of the car I'm guessing 2.8 liters. Kinda small, especially considering 1960's technology. From the looks of the intake manifold, I'd say it was fuel injected (not unheardof in the '60's, but very rare, and definately mechanical fuel injection). Overall, the body & interior are in excellent shape, except for a couple of quarter-sized spots on the hood where it's rusting from the outside. Underneath metal is pretty good. Car is green (If it were a Jag, I'd call it British Racing Green, but it's German), with black interior, four door. The transmission is interesting. Instead of PRND21, it's 12DNRP. Backwards. What would a car like this be worth? (Probably more than the $10 some lucky fellow's gonna win it for!). And with only a 2.8 liter engine in a pretty hefy car, how many weeks will it take it to go from 0-60? I'm not much of a Mercedes person, but this one was a real beauty.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

Sounds like about $2,500. These cars are not worth much as they are just old 4-door used cars that are expensive to fix. They aren't collectibles.

ghulet · August 2002

Those cars are very pretty and elegant, if not valuable. The 280SE is fuel injected (any time you see 'E' on an older Mercedes, it was made with FI). The later V8 models (280SE/SEL 3.5/4.5, 300SE/SEL 3.5/4.5 and especially the 300SEL 6.3) are a bit more valuable (quite a bit for the 6.3). They are complex for their age, particularly the air suspension on the 300s, and bodies are expensive to repair (rust is common). How is this one equipped? Sunroof? Power windows? Floor shift or column shift? Anyway, it sounds OK, well worth the price of a raffle ticket anyway!

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

If you win it, I'd suggest selling it and put the money towards a nicer one. These cars are plentiful and cheap to buy but not cheap to fix. And they are poor investments as you'll never see your money back if you put in some serious repairs.

If you like the look of the Benz 4-door, and don't have a lot to spend, try the W123 body cars, which are from very late 70s to mid 80s. Sometimes you can find decent ones for as little as $2,000.

If you like the older 60s style, at least buy a coupe, like an early 70s 250C, which are also relatively cheap ($5,000 should get a decent driver) but which might come up in value some day.

ghulet · August 2002

I personally think the W123s are buhugly, and probably even less likely to increase in value than the previous generation, no? I don't see any redeming qualities in those cars: ugly, slow, heavy, fuelish, big bumpers, rust easily, complex and expensive to repair. At least the '66-early 73s are pretty, though they share many of those other above non-attributes. Just my opinion, the W123s may be perfectly good cars. I just don't like them much.

If I had only a couple thousand dollars to spend and absolutely had to have a Benz, I'd probably get an early 190E or maybe a 240/300D.

Mr_Shiftright · August 2002

W123s are better cars, but you're right, they may not be as graceful as the earlier ones. But they certainly run better and parts are plentiful. You can get just about any W123 part at the dealer (in stock) or from a private jobber.

I don't think any of the older Benz sedans will be worth much in the future, unless you go far far back to the pontoons of the late 50s and early 60s, (pre tail-fin) and even those are lucky to realize $10K-12K with a body off restoration, far less than the cost of restoring them.

When a Benz sedan gets old, dented, rusted and rattly, I'm afraid it's a lawn furniture reincarnation in the cards.

rea98d · August 2002

No sunroof on this one, and the shifter was on the floor (It was also backwards, with P toward the rear of the car, and low toward the front). Mercedes Benzs haven't been cars I've always wanted to own, but for the price of a raffle ticket, I'd probably take one. This car appears to be in pretty good shape, so lawn furniture time may be a while off, but if I won the thing, I'd probably keep it for a few months, just for the "I can't beleive I have a Mercedes!" factor of it, and then sell it. I already have 3 cars (one project, one driver and one for sale), so I need a fourth like the Titanic needs iceburgs. Anyway, it was a beautiful car, in pretty good shape, so for whoever wins, a $2,500 car for $10 can't be that bad of a deal. Unless someone really wants it bad and buys 300 tickets ;-)

rea98d · August 2002

This guy should be a motivational speaker, cause asking 60 grand for a Series 3 XJ sedan is hopelessly optimistic.

http://www.cars-on-line.com/79jag2558.html

I'd think 10 grand for a near perfect one would be overpriced. And remember, it's a V-12 from Jaguars darkest days as far as dependebility goes. Probably explains why it only has 6,000 miles on the clock.

What's my classic worth?

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