Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

hansienna · August 2007

There are many portions of I-15 in southern California and central/southern Utah where the Sienna shifts down to 3rd gear to maintain 75 MPH WHILE THE CRUISE CONTROL IS ON.

However, the trip computer shows 99 MPG when driving in the opposite direction. Maybe your extra 23 lb-ft torque would keep the transmission in 4th gear. (245 lb-ft vs 222 lb-ft).

Again, remarkable that the more powerful 3.5L has the same EPA rating as the 3.3L when the 07 Sienna LE-7 is 130 lbs heavier than the 06 Sienna LE-7 (4270 lbs vs 4140 lbs).

sebring95 · August 2007

There's a big difference between the transmissions in the Sienna and the Ody. Yeah, both are 5-speeds however they're geared very different. The Sienna basically places the extra gear in the 1st positions giving you a lower ratio 1st gear which give it more torque on launch. This is likely why some folks claim the Sienna is quicker than the Ody. The better take-off at lower speeds obviously gives this impression. The upper gears are basically the same as most 4-speed automatics.

The Ody has essentially normal 1-2 gears, but 5th is taller than normal. This is likely the reason for the (EPA Rated) higher fuel economy. In addition, 4th is essentially another OD gear which is why when you lock out OD on the Ody it ignores 4th gear and goes straight to 3rd.

hansienna · August 2007

The Sienna has P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L while the Ody has only P-R-N-D-3-L.

An Ody owner does NOT have the ability to have the transmission shift from 1st gear to 2nd ONLY and from 3rd to 4th gear while the Sienna owner has greater control over the transmission shifting. :shades:

GC and T&C have a similar limitation with ONLY P-N-R-D-3-L.

hypnosis44 · August 2007

Thanks. That is interesting. Here are the actual ratios.

ODYSSEY-----------------------SIENNA
1ST-----------2.697------------4.235
2ND-----------1.606------------2.36
3RD-----------1.071------------1.517
4TH-----------0.766------------1.047
5TH-----------0.538------------0.756
FINAL -------4.312------------3.08 OR 3.29 W/Towing package

dennisctc · August 2007

for a new comparison of the latest and greatest 2008s!! BTW - Any big changes for Ody for 08?

thegraduate · August 2007

An Ody owner does NOT have the ability to have the transmission shift from 1st gear to 2nd ONLY.

I'm not trying to sound like a butt here, but you are completely wrong. They do, in all Odyssey models. Even previous generations had this ability. Here is a picture of this shifter, from 2005-current.

There is a "1" on the lever which locks you in 1st gear, and a "2" on the lever, which locks you in 2nd gear. Then with the lever in "D" push the "D3" button to have the transmission operate as a 3-speed automatic (it will use 1, 2, and 3, but lock you out of 4th or 5th). 4th gear is so tall it wouldn't help much to have it handy.

ateixeira · August 2007

ODYSSEY-----------------------SIENNA
1ST-----------2.697------------4.235
2ND-----------1.606------------2.36
3RD-----------1.071------------1.517
4TH-----------0.766------------1.047
5TH-----------0.538------------0.756
FINAL -------4.312------------3.08 OR 3.29 ~~W/Towing package~~

It's actually 3.29 for AWD models. The FWD models are geared a little taller because they weight less and there is slightly less drivetrain loss.

All Siennas come standard with the towing package (two oil coolers).

Also, doesn't Honda use two different ratios for the VCM models vs. the non-VCM ones? I think the models with VCM have shorter gearing so that 3 cylinders can still push along all that weight.

thegraduate · August 2007

Also, doesn't Honda use two different ratios for the VCM models vs. the non-VCM ones? I think the models with VCM have shorter gearing so that 3 cylinders can still push along all that weight.

Exactly. The non-VCM Odyssey runs at 1700 RPM or so at 60 MPH. The VCM Odyssey runs at 1900 RPM or so.

ateixeira · August 2007

Yeah, I recall that from an earlier discussion.

hansienna · August 2007

Multiply the final drive ratio times each gear ratio and the Sienna vs Ody REAL ratio engine RPM to road speed are not much different...but the Sienna is geared lower in ALL but 4th. :shades:

ateixeira · August 2007

Gotta factor in tire size, too. Honda does use tires with a bigger circumference, both LX vs. CE and Touring vs. Limited.

marine2 · August 2007

I don't think any of the newer Caravans have the built-in car seats either. I know Honda/Toyota don't offer it.

Chrysler does offer built in children car seats with their second row bench seats on the 2008. But not on Stow-N-Go seats.

marine2 · August 2007

[bMy Honda dealer has a similar lifetime warranty scheme. The trick is you have to have all your maintenance done by them. I'm sure Chrysler is doing the same thing and requiring all work to be done by their dealers to keep the warranty going.

Not sure on the 2008. But I have a 7/70 bumper to bumper on my 2005 and I don't have to go to the dealer to keep it up.

dennisctc · August 2007

I think you need to have it inspected for free every 5 years?? For DCX to honor the warranty.

ateixeira · August 2007

The catch with that is they will be looking for wear and tear items at each of those 5 year inspections.

Most people get service from the dealer anyway, so the 5 year thing won't be an issue for them.

marine2 · August 2007

I sure would make sure you go see the 2008 Dodge/Chrysler mini vans. I saw the new Dodge Swivel N Go model today and was blown away on how much nicer it is from the older model. It has nicer leather, bigger GPS and back up camera, sturdier cup holders, very nice center console, electric fold down rear seat, more storage all over the van. It can have two DVD's or you can get one DVD and the other is a television, with kid programs, like Disney, Nickelodeon and cartoon Network broadcast through Sirus.(One year paid by Chrysler). It will also has video gaming, movie watching, games like card shark, air guitar, etc. Has a table and two swivel captain chairs in the second row. It also has two glove boxes. Fold down and in sun screens. It is just heads and heals better than their older model. Much nicer looking inside with their new colors. I hear the glass is even thicker to cut down on road noise. They have all the safety features the others have now, plus a new engine and six speed transmission. Plus if you keep it, a life time warranty on engine and drive train

thegraduate · August 2007

Wonder how much all these tables, gadgets, and thicker glass will add to the curb weight?

marine2 · August 2007

Wonder how much all these tables, gadgets, and thicker glass will add to the curb weight?

Not sure, but under the new mileage, it's rated about the same as my 2005. about 17/24. I would think with the six speed, it would do a little better than that. The one I saw, had a sticker price of $33,000.00.

ateixeira · August 2007

I agree with everything except the "very nice center console". The design is clever, but the materials used remind me too much of the Caliber. They should be of a higher (pardon the pun) caliber in this price range.

Dodge is most certainly a pioneer in interior design and I agree with most of what you said.

I do wish they'd invest most in the powertrains, why still a pushrod engine for instance?

marine2 · August 2007

I was quite impressed with the design of the center console. While it's looks are nothing fancy, the features it has are great. It has the old one beat 100 times over.

As for the reason Chrysler still has the old push rod engines, you have to realize the difference in profit the Asian auto makers have over the Americans. It is huge and it keeps the American manufactures from putting as much money in R/D as they would like. If the American manufactures have to give big discounts to move them off the lot, it makes that profit for the Asians even larger and puts the American manufactures at even a bigger disadvantage. I was really surprised Chrysler could put as much stuff on their new mini van as they have and sell it cheaper than the old model.

jipster · August 2007

Consumer Reports didn't show much love to the "New for 2008" Grand caravan/Town Country in this months issue. With every positive came a "but". i.e "New springs should improve ride comfort, but an independent rear suspension would have been better." and "The new swiveling seats are novel but don't offer much leg room.... with that option, you also give up the fold flat seat storeage in the second row that comes with the Stow-n-go alternative."

marine2 · August 2007

Consumer Reports didn't show much love to the "New for 2008" Grand caravan/Town Country in this months issue. With every positive came a "but". i.e "New springs should improve ride comfort, but an independent rear suspension would have been better." and "The new swiveling seats are novel but don't offer much leg room.... with that option, you also give up the fold flat seat storeage in the second row that comes with the Stow-n-go alternative."

That doesn't surprise me a bit about Consumer's Report. They have little good to say about any American vehicle. But it seems to get good reviews from Edmonds and a couple of others. Several have said the suspension is better and the van is quieter. They even made the remark that Chrysler went back to the head of the class with this new van. I can't put down their web sites, but they can be found if you read some of the reviews here on Edmonds on the 2008.

ateixeira · August 2007

When you factor in the rebates on the outgoing models I'm sure the real-world pricing will go up. It surely ought to.

Toyota gets by with a torsion beam rear suspension, so I don't think the non-indy rear is a deal killer for many folks. It's a van, not a sports car. This is a case where packaging is actually more important than at-the-limit-handling few minivan owners will even approach.

Chrysler offers either or, you can get Stow and Go or Swivel and Go, so give them credit where credit is due.

I agree about the legroom, I sampled the mock-up interior at the NY Auto Show. Still, a mom can sit and face her toddler, and that's very useful.

6 speed automatic is class-leading, I believe.

dennisctc · August 2007

I was thinking of a new Chrysler Minivan, but I've just purchased another more innovative vehicle with a fully indy suspension, all Aluminum engine etc... It's a 1963 Chevy Corvair

Monza Coupe with 6 cyl, 2 speed auto on dash lever just like Honda and Chrysler

This baby has 1850 miles...YES 1850 original miles, owned by a old lady who didn't drive, traded into dealers 6 years later and put on display for decade, then off to a museum on loan and then sold!! The previous owner had it for 20 years!!! Now me....I'm detailing it all weekend! Woo Hoo...

jipster · August 2007

a 1963 Chevy Corvair Monza Coupe

That's about as far away from a new Chrysler Minivan as you can get. What happened?

dennisctc · August 2007

I decided to keep my 20,000 mile 2005 Grand Caravan, which has been perfect, and invest in a classic that'll increase in value and be a fun car!

ateixeira · August 2007

We should rename the thread:

Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign vs. buy a classic car instead!

hansienna · August 2007

I am confused :confuse:

Didn't ALL Corvair Monza's have an air cooled 4 cylinder engine?

Didn't Chevy later introduce a rear wheel drive Monza in the early 1970's with front engine - rear wheel drive that was a cramped little cracker box with nothing innovative except for being overpriced?

dennisctc · August 2007

All Corvairs are 6 cylinders thru all 10 years of production

The late 70s Monza was based on Vega chasis.

hypnosis44 · August 2007

There was also the Corvair "Compact Van" as I believe they were called at the time. There were a couple of versions: utility and travel, or some such names designed to go head to head with Volkswagen. And the Ford Econoline van was out there as well and outlasted the Corvair lineup by many years. Nothing from MoPar though.

coachr · September 2007

My wife and I are startign to shop for a new van. She currently has a 2004 Sienna. But the Sienna sits SO Low it is a problem with ground clearance with a tow bar added.
We are looking for a nice van with plenty of bells and whistles with the best ground clearance. We do a TON of camping and traveling. We scrape bottom on our hitch almost everywhere we go. We add a tow hitch for our bike racks and npout our canoe up top. Any suggestions for which minivan might be best suited for us?
She is not ready to give up her sliding side doors and go the SUV route.

ateixeira · September 2007

The AWD Sienna is about 1.5" higher off the ground. Is yours a FWD model?

I think to get significantly more clearance you may end up with an SUV.

hause7 · September 2007

Actually the Sienna is the van with the most Ground clearance, it is 6.9" off the ground. The odyssey is 5.9". The new 2007 siena may be a good alternative, with the extra power camping/Traveling will be a little more fun. =]

ateixeira · September 2007

That must be the AWD model, then.

I have heard others complain that the hitch makes you sacrifice a bit of departure angle. Aftermarket hitches are even worse in this regard.

Don't just look at clearance, look at the departure angle with a hitch attached, that's what's gonna matter.

dennisctc · September 2007

My 2005 Dodge and also the new 2008s, if you get the $600 tow package (oil, tranny, engine cooler, harness, HD electrical AND auto adjust rear shocks), the rear suspension has air shocks to keep rear end level under any load. So if this is just an issue when loaded, check out the Dodge/Chrysler, or go to a Goodyear tire store, they have airshocks you manually can add air to for heavy load conditions.

dennisctc · September 2007

Definitely call around and check out the web for hitches!! They vary greatly, and could solve your issue too.

aaron_t · September 2007

Larger tires would help ground clearance, with some tradeoffs. Otherwsie, the load leveling suspension of the Chrysler towing package would help.

marine2 · September 2007

I have a family of Dodge minivan owners. I bought mine (white one) because my Mom and Sister can't get around much without using a wheel chair or electric scooter. Stow & Go comes in sooooo handy for this. I can get both scooter& electric wheel chair in my minivan and still have room to seat my brother back there.

It also came in handy loading up baby furniture set up, through the side door. As you can see, my van is also a working van with features I couldn't get on a foreign minivan.

http://www.carspace.com/marine2

ateixeira · September 2007

I believe both Dodge and Toyota also make ramp vans, so scooters can be driven right up and into these vans. Both manufacturers deserve kudos for offering that option. :shades:

marine2 · September 2007

It might be useful for us to list what is unique about each of these 3 vans. I'll start, please feel free to add things I forgot to mention.

Now let's update the list:

Dodge has Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling shocks, 2 screen DVD & Sat TV, Able to watch two different movies at the same time. Power folding 3rd row, 6 speed auto, lifetime powertrain warranty, class-leading torque, knee air bags, battery saver, AC power, adjustable pedals, integrated booster seat, LED lighting, flashlight, umbrella holder, flex-fuel, myGig, remote start.

2 115 power outlets, plus power converter, blue tooth U connect Communications through front dash screen and speakers., third row vents in ceiling to control air flow, instead of vent windows in the third row. First and second row heated seats, halo lighting. Able to view movies up to front dash screen when van is stopped. Offers two different rides. Softer on Chrysler, stiffer on Dodge. Voice recognition on the NAV, 3rd row split bench seat that can tailgate

Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats. Help me out Honda owners because I know there are more! Edit: add voice recognition on the NAV and power adjustable pedals, AC outlet (note: all 3 have this!).

Toyota has power folding 3rd row, all-wheel drive, HIDs, run-flats, power 3rd row vent windows, 3rd row that can tailgate, 8 seat model, Bluetooth, Laser Adaptive Cruise Control, tow prep package standard, turn signal in the mirrors, telescoping wheel, auto express button moonroof, auto dimming driver's side mirror, fold flat passenger seat, 2 in glass antennae, 2 115 power outlets, battery saver, and class leading power.

Same rules as last time: let me know what I missed.

thegraduate · September 2007

Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats. Help me out Honda owners because I know there are more! Edit: add voice recognition on the NAV and power adjustable pedals, AC outlet (note: all 3 have this!).

Um, how about the plusOne seat that adds an 8th seating position when you need one in a pinch (it's not that comfortable, but works for getting 8 folks to dinner in town, or getting 6 kids in the back of the van. The lazy susan where the plusOne seat can be stored is also pretty darn nifty. I think the Honda has the largest screen for the NAVI (someone can back me up or prove me wrong on this, feel free).

Can you roll down the windows remotely using the key fob of the DCX or Toyota? You can in the Odyssey (I don't know about others).

marine2 · September 2007

Not sure run flat tires are a plus from the complaints I've read on these boards.

I hear you can start and kill the engine from the key fob on the Chrysler/Dodge. Can't roll down windows using the key though.

Best of all, I can feel good helping to keep an American company afloat buying the new Dodge/Chrysler minivan. Which also helps our balance of trade.

thegraduate · September 2007

I'm a full-blown republican (rare for a 20 y.o. I think), but I feel like when its that much money, I'm buying what makes the most sense to ME, not what small amount will help a huge multinational corporation.

And, I'm with you marine, I wouldn't want the run-flats on the Ody either.

dennisctc · September 2007

I sometime think aliens are watching and laughing at us from up in space

We're basically talking boxes with wheels with very minor differentiation. When I was looking, the biggest difference in minvans was price #1, with the Honda and Toyota so much more with little difference in ride/handling/features (for a minivan). When I was looking at sport sedans, I started with a VW, then an Audi, and finally a BMW. With each step up there was a "wow" factor. With minivans, I never got that wow factor from one to the other.

thegraduate · September 2007

The difference I have felt:

Driving a Honda felt like driving an Accord. It drives smaller, with less lean and sharper steering. Driving the other vans was like driving, well, a van. If you have a sports sedan (like you dennis) you don't need a do-it-all vehicle. For people like my aunt who's only vehicle is her Odyssey, it's the best compromise.

carcom2 · September 2007

The T&C & GC have power rear-quarter vent windows included with Power & Remote Entry Group (info is right out of the brochures).

A fully loaded 2008 T&C limited is about $3K more than fully loaded 2008 FWD Sienna Limited with all the options. With that difference, you can buy a laptop with much more than 20 gig, extra dvd player,flashlight, extended warranty,snack trays,etc. Yes it's nice having all that built in.

Which is the better vehicle if you don't include some nice but not necessary bells and whistles? The stereo system is important to me. Which sounds better. Don't care about the specs. Which sounds better?

marine2 · September 2007

A fully loaded 2008 T&C limited is about $3K more than fully loaded 2008 FWD Sienna Limited with all the options. With that difference, you can buy a laptop with much more than 20 gig, extra dvd player,flashlight, extended warranty,snack trays,etc. Yes it's nice having all that built in.

I will bet you they'll come down on the price of the Chrysler where they probably won't on the Sienna. In the end, you'll get more on the Chrysler and pay less.

Which is the better vehicle if you don't include some nice but not necessary bells and whistles? The stereo system is important to me. Which sounds better. Don't care about the specs. Which sounds better?

Don't know, I haven't heard either one. But Chrysler has put a 506 watt 7.1 surround sound system in theirs, with a subwoofer. What does the Toyota and Honda have?

hansienna · September 2007

DON'T add up every item listed in a pricing service (like Edmunds).

The power rear-quarter vent windows are STANDARD EQUIPMENT on EVERY T&C EXCEPT the base T&C LX 24F and are included in the Power and Remote Entry Group of the T&C LX 24G. Same with the Power front one-touch up/down driver's side and one-touch down front passenger window with power 2nd row windows.

Try pricing a loaded T&C Limited using the Chrysler web site and don't include the cost of a feature that is STANDARD equipment on the T&C Limited. :shades:

maguy · September 2007

I posted this one the Chrysler board but thought some folks here might be able to help too. I am just beginning to look at vans and looked at a 2007 T&C Limited this past weekend. It seems the incentives are decent on the outgoing models and it had side airbags and rear DVD, our must have options.

1) Can any current T&C Limited owners comments on their experience with the van and its features?

2) Does anyone know what kind of pricing on the 2007 Limited would be a "good deal"?

aaron_t · September 2007

I put 38k miles on a 2005 T&C Touring and now have a 2007 T&C Signature Series with 9k miles. I really like the feature content of the Special Edition/Signature series more than the Limited, but that's personal. As for pricing, I woul not pay more than $10k off MSRP for a 2007 Dodge/Chrysler minivan. I got almost $12k off my 2007 in March and the redesigned ones are on dealer lots already.

Minivans - Domestic or Foreign

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