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you: I don't see why anyone would want to buy a car that gets less than 40 miles to the gallon since there are cars out there that are way more efficient.
me: I can only think of a handful here in the US, and that would be 40+ on the highway only. Muscle car Power is a good reason to have a car that doesn't get 40mpg.
I'm waiting for the redesigned Golf myself, though if the discounts were big enough on an '04 at the end of the year ... I'll still keep my Firebird though.
I don't see why anyone would want to buy a car that gets less than 40 miles to the gallon since there are cars out there that are way more efficient.
Ugh. These 40-50mpg cars are great for commuting or one driver and a passenger, but worthless for many families. Maybe if you rarely travel. I just returned from a 2,000 mile trip and there is no way in the world we would have fit in my Jetta. I'm not sure everything would have fit in our Audi A6 and it's rather large by car standards today and couldn't get 40mpg with anything less than a miracle. Our Tahoe got 20mpg on the way out, and 15mpg pulling a trailer on the way back. Find me a 40mpg vehicle that can sit 4 adults, one baby seat, a weeks worth of luggage, and can gobble up thousands of miles of mountain highways comfortably. I'm very interested if you can find one.
By garettmc 'Find me a 40mpg vehicle that can sit 4 adults, one baby seat, a weeks worth of luggage, and can gobble up thousands of miles of mountain highways comfortably. I'm very interested if you can find one. '
53.3 mpg extra urban. Seats 7 Europeans, so should be good for 4 Americans :-). Yeah I know it is not available in the US. but you gotta admit that it would be sweet.
I'm looking to purchase a 04 Jetta with the TDI. I've found one with an automatic trans, I'd rather have the manual. Should I stay away from the auto tranny? Those that have one, how is the excelleration?... Also, I'm checking for the reliability record on VW. Some say so/so (JD Power), others say terrible (Consumer Reports). I've read something of the EGR mod (clogging). Is this an issue resolved or 04 models? How about some REAL owner feed back.. Thanks
(shelbydog25) The manual tranny will provide much better MPG over the automatic.
The TDI engine is designed to run over 300,000 miles. (using VW design specs and some math) There are many folks who have over 200,000 miles.
The Body has a 12year/100,000 mile warantee. You will not find that on ANY other vehicle in this pricerange.
Question about your name: Do you have a ShelbyDodge? I have some friends that drag-race 2.2L Dodge turbos... It is always so cool to see them put to shame the Hondas and DSM vehicles that have $10,000 of go-fast goodies.
If you are interested in ShelbyDodge... check this out. (download and play it) This is the quickest K-car on the planet humiliating a twin-turbo Supra. (I was in the crowd that day to see this!)
I've got seat time in both auto and manual TDI's. Performance wise, you can make them both work fairly close to equal. The auto tranny learns your shifting habits (and you also need to learn throttle input) but once everyone learns each other it works rather nicely.
IMHO, I would never buy a new TDI auto unless I really needed the auto for some reason. The mileage penalty is just too large to pay extra for the autobox. Now if you stumbled across a terrific deal on a used automatic then it might be worth it. There are quite a few other cars you can eek 40mpg out of and are much cheaper than a VW (although they obviuosly don't drive as nicely, etc.). To get the 50mpg you nearly must have a manual tranny.
As for reliability, I guess it depends on what your expectations are. I gave up on buying a vehicle just for reliability a few years back and now just buy what I like. The last couple Toyotas I owned were hardly flawless anyway. I'm at 75k miles on my TDI and the only problems I've had were very small beyond the power window motors going bad (three so far). These were redesigned I believe last year so any of the new ones should be fine. VW also extended the warranty on the older ones so I get free ones if/when they do break.
The only other concern is maintenance. If you plan to have a dealer do all your maintenance, be very careful. Some (many) are outright crooks. I do all my maintenance/repairs myself and I've spent very little on maintenance. This applies to any brand as well, but it seems to be even worse on VW's.
Actually Shelbydog is named after our dog, which was named after the Ford Shelby.. You were close though.
Bpeebles & Seebring95, thanks for both your posts. I'm a shade tree mechanic but usually only on domestics. I had owned a Ford Powerstroke so I'm somewhat familiar with diesels (but not German ones!). Other than what you mentioned Seebring95, I did read about the EGR clogging issue. Maybe it's been fixed for 04. I'm not sure what you meant by "maintenance seems worse on the vw"... cost? more required? Every vehicle/brand has their issues and CR is biased towards Japanese (although their reputation is good).
Another thing you may consider if you are a shade tree mechanic. VW has a special tool for just about EVERY maintenance chore!? So in effect you may want to scope out the tool costs for the maintenance you wish to do.
I got a 2003 VW Jetta TDI new in ap2003. Right now I am approaching 18,000 miles in 7mo(31k yr pace) so far nothing wrong! I have rotated the tires once and have done 5k,10, oil and oil filter changes already.
What i meant by saying vw is worse, was in reference to the VW dealers scamming you on maintenance. Toyota a close second.
I don't find a big difference between maintenance on domestics vs imports, to some degree. You'll find more special tools needed (although they're readily available) and some things require a quick head-scratch. I've had no problems performing any and all maintenance on my Jetta. Swapped out the struts a few weeks ago. Funny thing is, I tend to do maintenance on my european cars and drop the domestics/japanese off for the dealers. I generally have some degee of passion for my european cars and am willing to spend the time/effort to get the job done right and usually save big money. The other cars I really don't give a squat about and usually aren't very expensive to maintain if you have some sense when getting a dealer to do something. Never drop off a Toyota and say "give me the 30k mile service". You might as well just buy a new car.
The EGR problem isn't an issue with any model, just so you do a quick adaptation to the computer (basically you turn the EGR off) so the intake won't clog. I have the VAGCOM program on my laptop which basically gives you huge diagnostic abilities along with control over many functions of the car. I think I've got $300 in it but it's just cool as can be. Monitor fuel rates, MAF function, read/reset check-engine lights, and on and on. If I had this ability on all my cars I'd never need a dealer.
I also have a 2003 manual Jetta TDI...nearing 22K miles. I only had one problem, that was with the brakes on the day I picked it up. They (dealer), truly went out of their way in fixing it, giving me a loaner (I had about 200 yards on the car), and taking care of me. Still hitting 50-52MPG. Since that first incident, nothing bad, nothing at all.
As for reliability ratings, I have the distinct pleasure of usually always picking a car, and one week after buying, reading/hearing about all of it's problems. For every one positive comment I can find, I can also find a negative one about almost any vehicle. Now....don't get me started on my 2002 Saturn, which I won't drive (nor let my wife), until it's fixed; it's downright dangerous!
VW is a MAJOR player in the European marketplace. By all accounts they couldn't keep that share if they made a bad product. Something like 40% or more of their European sales are diesels. When I worked for Garrett turbo I helped develop the VNT15 ... it is a very good unit. When I worked in diesel combustion development I made a presentation to the engineers in Wolfsburg ... arrogant bastards, but good engineers! Jettas and TDI's have a reputation for good engineering and quality control. So, here's what puzzles me .... they are a well developed, mature product, successful in a tough market (Europe). How come they have such an ABYSMAL reputation for reliability over here? Or do mostly unhapppy owners post on sites like this but happy owners tend not too? Can I hear from some satisfied owners to get a more balanced feeling before I make a purchasing decision I might regret? P.S. doing my own maintenance is not a problem ... I rather like it, if that's what it takes to keep one running here in the U.S.
In developing the turbo unit for the TDI combination, what was the design parameter for the engine life? In hrs? I have read in a couple well hidden places that it was 10,000 hrs middle of the bell shaped curve. So if your average speed is 50-55 mph, the calculations would indicate 500,000-550,000 miles. The key to this longevity would obviously be inexpensive parts and the logistical chain supply and channels.
I have a Ap03 Jetta TDI 2003 with going on 18,000 miles. I have had NOTHING wrong with it at all! I started to use Delvac One 5w-40 oil and am doing the 10,000 mile oil and filter interval after the first oil change at 5,000 miles! It is really a kick in the pants to get 45-51 mpg with average low of 600 miles per fill up! It also has 90 hp with 155 #ft of torque! As you well know, the torque is the real surprise! While not a bunny quick accelerator, once you get up to speed, it can cruise with the best of them!
All of my many VWs have traveled well over 130,000 miles. The german design engineers are world-reknowned for being the very best.
BUT... add in some bean counters who's only job is to save a buck. Let them 'cheepen' the supply chain and build quality... and even the best design will suffer.
Now add that to abysmal dealerships that do little to try to please the customers and you end up with the situation that Volkswagen is in.
The good news is that VW has recognized the problems and addressing some of them. The launch of the Turaeg is coupled with an ACTIVE web presence on (cannot be named here in edmuunds) website. VW has reps that talk directly to customers and LISTEN to them.
Fixing the poor customer relations that many service-departments have will be a bit more of a challange. I am not convinced that VW is aware of the depth of that problem... or how to improve it.
The dealership experience seems to be what is so bad. The vast majority of complaints I see can easily be linked to poor service. Incompetent mechanics, expensive hourly rates, super-high list prices on parts, all add up to bad experiences. The rate at which many vw mechanics just throw parts at a car, you can certainly understand how some folks feel the cars are trashy. I don't know how many people I've seen claim they had a a whole string of parts replaced, but realistically it was most likely the last part on the list that was really the problem.
FWIW, I've had very few problems approaching 75k miles now on my '00 Jetta. The only repairs performed by the dealer were two power window assemblies under warranty. Around 65k miles I detected a malfunctioning MAF and a quick scan with a VAGCOM confirmed that. I bought one from an on-line source for $125 and replaced it myself in about 10 minutes. I also had a faulty glow-plug wiring harness which I replaced around 50k miles. If you add up those problems (four) that's ahead of my last Toyota by a long shot. I think most people rate a cars reliability by how easily the small problems are taken care of. If the dealer experience is miserable and their problems don't get addressed or they replace twenty parts, that certainly doesn't make you feel good about the vehicle.
I have an 03 Jetta wagon TDI 5-speed and have about 29,000 miles on it. My overall average is 55.3 MPG. Yes there are times I get over 60 MPG and sometimes only 50 MPG. The only problem I have had was when I first purchased the car new in Oct. 2002 the tires were somewhat out of balance and VW fixed promptly.
I use Mobil 1/ Delvac 5-40 pure 100% synthetic oil and change every 10,000 miles and no oil useage between changes. Original tires, Continental CH-95/ 195X15X91H. No modifications on the car and 100% factory stock. As I said in a previous post VW is probably not the most dependable car but I drive consveratively and do all my own maintaince. I will just keep on driving and when the time comes maybe get another TDI or possibly a Hybrid.
I would like to hear from anyone out there who has some experience running B20 in their TDI. Mine has had a steady diet of B20 since the 3000 mile mark. I now have about 9000 miles on the car and it still on B20 only. My question to all is, does anyone know if the Bio fuel is better or worse as far as the intake clogging issue is concerned. My car still has the EGR turned on since I haven't hooked up with anyone yet to turn it off. The car has a steady diet of 55mph each day about 28 miles in the am and 28 miles in the pm. Car runs great and I love it. Old model was a 83 rabbit, diesel of course and 254,000 and running great. I need to find it a good home. Well thats it for now. Just spipping SOYBEAN in Lebanon Oregon!
I notice the fuel efficiency of my TDI dropping now that the tempature is running @ 30F. I know that diesel will gell at 20F. Does start getting thick below 30F? If yes, will a bottle of Diesel Kleen Supplement (white bottle) correct the matter?
Also, anyone tried the Shell additive - Rotella? Any better/worse than Diesel Kleen?
(vwinva) Put the antigell in NOW!!! Expect to put 6-8oz of Diesel Kleen Supplement (white bottle) at each fillup all winter long.
I run the Diesel Kleen Supplement (grey bottle) in the summer time because it improves MPG, reduces smoking and keeps things clean.
Any gelling fuel should not affect your MPG but can leave you stranded. The TDI will start at VERY low temps (-10F) but if the fuel is gelled, then the fuel-filter will plug up after driving several miles and the engine will quit.
I have never seen the Shell additive - Rotella, I thought that Rotella was an engine OIL. Any antigell would be fine... as long as you run SOMTHING.
The fuel isn't gelling, particularly not at 30F. The reason your economy is going down is because of the anti-gel that's already in your fuel. You didn't state your location, but most stations will start treating the fuel around mid-november.
You can also treat the fuel yourself with one of the winter cetane boosters. The anti-gel added by the stations doesn't include a cetane booster, therefore it can effect your economy/performance a bit. Treating the fuel yourself certainly isn't required, but not only will you increase the cetane, but also guarantee you're getting the proper anti-gel and possibly assist in water seperation if you get a bad tank of fuel. Assuming the stations don't screw up, it's probably a complete waste of time. But I don't like to assume anything so I dump a few ounces of treatment in at each fill-up. I swithch back and forth between Powerservice white bottle and Stanadyne. Whichever is easily accessible. I generally don't run anything in the summer.
Ran across this idea on E-bay. Change oil filter every 5K, synthetic oil every 10K(which is what the manual says). Idea is that filter gets clogged with soot, however the oil doesn't degrade. Obviously the seller is self-interested, it helps him sell filters. But for those of you who have run TDIs for awhile, do you think there is any merit to the idea?
Use good quality synthetic diesel oil and change the oil and filter every 10,000 miles. Analysis of oil at 10,000 miles proves that even the 10,000 mile change interval is conservative. There is no need to change the filter at 5,000 miles. It will not harm anything though.
I am running OEM filters and Mobil One Delvac 5w40 and am keeping to the 10,000 mile interval due to possible warranty concerns (engine damage is VERY remote) I will go to a 15,000 mile interval oil and oil filter. I would not do the 5k oil filter change.
Oil tests show mine well within spec at 10k miles so I can't think of any reason to change the filter prior to that. Synthetic (and diesel rated oil in general) is more than capable of suspending soot.
This may not be the correct forum to bring up the concept of preoilers and bypass oil filtering but it just goes to show how flexible oil change intervals can be. On one side is the attitude I never meet an engine that you could not apply a oil and filter change interval of 3k, to the other side of the spectrum a very comfortable oil and filter change interval of once a year every 25,000- 30,000 miles!
(ruking1) Only the folks that SELL the oil and GET PAYED to do oil changes tout the 3K mile oil-change.
There has not been a vehicle built in the last 20 years that NEEDS a 3K mile oil change. (Mainly because the quality of the OIL has greatly improved) Read the owners manual for any vehicle you choose.
My 1976 FULL-Size Chebby Blazer got once-a-year oil changes with Mobil1. (Mobil1 was first released in 1977 and was marketed as a once-a-year oil. I started using it immediatly)
My 1979 VW Scirocco got once-a-year oil changes. (using Mobil1) and it was still running strong at 125K miles.
I can tell you about 8 other vehicles that encounterd NO engine problems with extended oil changes. (they all went over 100K miles)
For sure you are preaching to the choir with me, as you probably have read some of my past posts!
Having said that, it does need to be said that 3k intervals are an enormous use of money and resources, if you compare it to the normal 15,000 oil and filter intervals I have been doing (over 650k miles) in 7 vehicles. I have been using Mobil One 5/10w-30 and only recently (18k miles) been using Mobil Delvac One, which by all tests and accounts is probably better than Mobil One. Synthetic is simply a superior oil apples to apples! We can surely show how group three oil can be used in pretty cost effective ways, but:
For me I like the side benefits:
1. app once a year or twice a year oil and filter changes (obviously depends on mileage and severity of usage)
2. Less use of resources, using 3k and 15k as examples on a 4 qt Jetta TDI, 20qt vs 4 qt.
3. far less cost per mile lubricated.
4. less product and less frequency in the waste stream.
What should the change interval be for standard, non-synthetic oil? I would prefer regular diesel oil, or, if I can get some, re-refined oil from America's Choice or Exxon.
(pfine) The simple answer is DONT DO IT! There is no dyno-oil that meets the VW505 specification for the TDI engine.
The TDI engine is a TURBOCHARGED, EGR-cooled, Diesel engine. The valvetrain has very high loading on the cams. There is copious amount of soot to deal with in the oil. Volkswagon switched to using ONLY Synthetic oil in the TDI many years ago for very good reasons.
While I personally would not use a non synthetic oil, (group IV) the fact of the matter is a lot of so call synthetic and non synthetic oil do meet the VW 505 specification. The technical data (CD Bentley's and VW owner's manual's) list so many viscosities and conditions that you can almost read anything you want into it!
For the record, I use 5w-40 Mobil Delvac. 2003 Jetta TDI.
2004 VW TDI's are further complicated by the PD or Pump Duse requirement for VW 505.01
You have to be kidding. I dont even own one yet -- im considering the new 2004 model diesel style. Of course I will follow whatever the manufacturer recommends, but I am shocked that VW would design such an engine for use with ONLY synthetic oil. While we are on the subject (I once owned an Audi and the fluid requirements were insane -- only no-phosphate coolant, only proprietory hydraulic oil for the steering and braking hydraulic system...) are there any other costly, proprietory fluid recommendations I should be aware of? Also, what about using 20% Biodiesel mix. Will it destroy the system or have durability issues been addressed with its use?
The way cars are used in Europe, i.e. speeds up to and exceeding 120 Mph, long intervals between oil changes, cost of maintenance, you should not be surprised by the requirement for synthetic oil ONLY. If you factor in oil change intervals of 10k miles and more, for some cars oil changes are recommended every 20000 or 25000 kilometers, the cost would be lower than using conventional oil changed every 3k miles. If you research the matter a little bit more you will be surprised that synthetic oils (group 4) are better for the environment, better for the engines under extreme hot or cold conditions and -generally- keep engines cleaner. In my personal case I do only 2 oil changes a year, every 16k miles and save money and time. Just to make sure everything is fine I have the used oil analyzed once a year. Everytime the results are excellent. I won't tell you here what the brand of oil I use is. I don't want people to think that I try to convince them to use a particular brand of oil. If you are interested, send me an e-mail -see my public profile-.
(pfine) Running BD is not a problem and has been reported to actually CLEAN the intake manifold of the goo. (That the cooled EGR tends to leave there.)
As for as fluid recommendations for VW (You mention Audi) I assume that you know that VW and Audi are basically the same vehicles. (Golf, Jetta, New-beatle and Audi TT are all the same platform)
Virtually all of the fluids are 'special' in some way. Although some folks have tried to second-guess the German engineers, they most often cannot find any alternate fluids that work as well. This includes the steering, Tranny and especially the antrifreeze.
German vehicles have a special diet that should be followed. This is not unique, even Asian vechicles have special fluids. (There is no known substitute for Honda powersteering fluid)
If mandatory use of synthetic oil is shocking...if Pentosin, G12, or MAF, are unknown terms and you have no desire to discover their meaning...if you love HP and do not appreciate torque...the TDI is not for you.
Moparbad -- your comment was out of line and, frankly, quite bizarre. Were not all as brilliant as you, with your spectacular knowledge of fluids, grease or torque. Jesus, put that on a resume and see who gives a damn.
Anyway, tonight I just test drove a 2004 Jetta TDI with the new PD-type 100 hp engine. The dealer just got one delivered.
My observations:
1. I insisted the dealer let me start it myself -- it was about 35 outside, and the glow plug lamp illuminated for approximately 3 seconds. The engine started quickly -- however there was a significant amount of visible smoke emitted. It was surprising to see, however, I assume this was normal for a TDI cold-weather start(?)
2. The engine took about a minute to begin idling smoothly. It was initially very rough, but settled down significantly after a few minutes.
3. The fit and finish seemed quite good. The vehicle was a 5-speed configuration and the transmission and clutch were very impressive. I also liked the standard cd/tape radio.
4. Performance was impressive for what I was expecting. I was able to peel out the tires, and acceleration was quite strong from a stop.
5. Brakes seemed good but I couldnt fully slam on them because the salesman was in the car with me.
6. The engine, even with the updated design, was, honestly, somewhat rough. It was noticeably noisy and there was definite vibration felt and clatter heard during acceleration. The noise and vibrations were not terribly bad, and I assume, are something which one would get used to with use. When cruising, the engine clatter/vibration dropped significantly.
7. I did not see the window sticker, but the salesman said the model gets 51 mpg on the highway. The knowledge of this would definitely persuade me to take another test drive during the daylight hours, under different driving conditions, such as on the highway, which I was unable to do today.
It sounds as if you are seriously considering a PD TDI. Many folks have enjoyed VWs for many years. I have been thru about 6 with a combined travel of well over 700,000 miles.
Just to touch on some of your comments.
You must keep in mind that you were running a brand new engine that is nowhere near broken in. After 10-20 thousand miles, the TDI engines are much smoother and a bit quieter. If properly broken in, the TDI engine will be a joy to drive and last a VERY long time. (The life expectancy of TDI engine is over 500,000 miles)
Yes, some smoke is not uncommon just after a cold start, especially on a tight, new engine.
Running a Cetane improver will reduce noise, reduce smoke and increase MPG too. Do some research on Cetane.
This leads me to somewhat defend 'moparbad'. I am certain that he was not intending to discourage you. Instead, he was trying to help you decide for yourself if you are prepared for ownership of a TDI engine. (and VW in general) An oblivious owner is asking for trouble. There are many folks that come from previous ownership experience of Asian vehicles expecting a German roadcar to be the same... it is not.
Aisan vehicles are ENGINEERED to be extremely reliable even with minimal maintenance. German roadcars can be very disappointing if the recommended maintenance is not followed. A finely tuned, precision engineered machine needs attention. (If the manual says 10,000 mile oil changes then do it.)
Do yourself a favor and do some more research on TDI engines. That is all that moparbad was suggesting that you do.
BTW: My resume contains fluids, grease and torque among many other things. It is called the Engineering discipline. Having this on a resume provides income for thousands of people. Personally, I cannot even imagine owning a device without knowing how it works and how to maintain it myself. (Dosent everyone know how a CPU works and how electrons are harnessed within them?) Feel free to click on my name above and read my profile.
2004 TDI requires oil that is available only from VW dealer or Motul. These are currently the only sources in North America and using oil that does not meet the requirement voids the warranty from VW.
Power steering fluid, brake fluid and coolant for VW are all VW specific and somewhat difficult to find. If you need to add coolant and add the wrong kind it will cause problems. You can not go to the local Pepboys or Autozone and find these items like you would for nearly any other US or Japan make of vehicle.
If having the VW dealer do everything on your vehicle for as long as you own it is fine, then no problem. Just be aware VW has nearly the worst satisfaction scores for service of ANY make sold in North America. My TDI's would only go to dealer for warranty work.
Other options are- Maintain the vehicle yourself. Requires mechanical aptitude and finding a source for parts. (Example VWParts.com)
Find an independent shop with experience working on German cars and diesel. Not easy.
Owning a TDI can be a very enjoyable experience as long as you understand what it entails.
If you drive 12-15K or more miles a year and change oil once vs. three to five times, the additional cost of synthetic is negligible if not cancelled. If you drive much less, the cost per year is negligible, too, but perhaps a Diesel is not the right car for you.
I like the idea of hybrids, but find myself oddly (and partially) agreeing with Lutz. Hybrids should have power in both the conventional and electric components; they make more sense in heavier and more costly vehicles that don’t already have good mileage, and the ones available today are best for short drives in the (flat) city. (Because they lack power, discharge when loaded and driven in mountainous regions, have stiff suspension and very basic handling optimized for fuel consumption vs. touring, and are overprized for what you get).
Not sure how long you drove the car, but a Diesel in cold weather takes a while to warm up and get quieter. I drove a 99 base model TDI Golf in Germany for two weeks. After warming up, it was quiet until about 90 mph. The newer ones are not that annoying – you can drive them comfortably way past that mark.
I disagree with the generalization that VWs are very sensitive to maintenance vs. Japanese cars. In VWs, I would stick with recommended timing belt changes and do the water pump at the same time. But then my experience is that just about 20,000 miles later, the same is true for Hondas and Toyotas. I would also only run synthetic in a turbo, whether a TDI, 1.8T, or a Subaru. Heck, I run synthetic in my VW/Audi V6. Other than that, VWs don’t need much attention, and your engine may sludge/leak, your transmission may fail, and your wheel bearings and drive axles may give even in a Toyota/Honda/Subaru. I find the car my wife happens to drive routinely lacking 2-3 quarts of oil, and it is lucky if it gets a change at 12,000 miles. None of my cars have had problems with this treatment, at > 130,000 miles, and running strongly after that, giving them to friends.
Mr. Bepeedles, If the tdi is designed to run over 500 000 miles, explain why my 2000 jetta tdi with 100m miles needs to have the crankshaft and lifters replaced. I always used synthetic oil and no my timing belt has never broken.........
Is this a riddle? I've only seen about 4 100K plus mile TDI engines disassembled, however, all of them had insignificant wear on internals and I've never heard of lifters and crank being replaced on any TDI of ANY age without timing belt or catastropic engine failure. If the timing belt never failed I would say you either had a turbo failure, engine hydrolock due to water ingestion, or the oil pan was damaged by hitting something and the engine was run without oil. Barring that I would think a dealer or mechanic is being inept or dishonest. Hope that you have seen the damage with your own eyes.
(rocque) How is that possible? I agree with moparbad that perhaps the wrong kind of synthetic oil was used or you had an unscrupulus mechanic. (or perhaps was no oil in the crankcase due to a leak)
You did not mention under what conditions you took it in for service. Is there anything you are not telling us?... (Like the oil-pressure light was on) What made you take it in for service?
Are you SURE that it was the CRANKSHAFT that was replaced for $1800... that is quite a bargin.
I have heard of folks that ran the wrong kind of synthetic oil in their TDI have some wear patterns show up on the Camshaft. Are you sure you were using the recommended synthetic engine oil? (never EVER take a TDI to a quiky-lube place they do not even stock the proper oil for a TDI engine)
BTW: There are no "lifters" in any VW engine... they are all overhead camshafts. The Cam works directly on the cam-followers. (some cam-followers are "solid", some "hydrolic" depending on the model year.) I hope you did not pay for lifters.
I'm new here, sorry if this is an inappropriate place for my question. I have a 2002 Golf TDI with 68,000 Km (40,000 miles) Its a wonderful car, great fuel mileage, fully loaded with heated seats, sun roof, alloys etc.... My wife and I have recently been blessed with twins. Our total child headcount is now 4, or 1 more than legally allowed in a Golf. :0( Not only have we suffered the humiliation of having to buy a wretched minivan, we now need to sell the Golf. Does anyone know of a site dedicated to classified vw ads?
I'm sure rocque simply made a honest mistake and intended to say camshaft and valves;) How many camshafts have been replaced due to wear over at that TDI type site where there are close to 20,000 members? Zero to the best of my knowledge. C'mon rocque, tell us the details.
According to VW the TDI has single overhead camshaft, spur driven belt, two valves per cylinder, maintenance free hydraulic lifters, single valve springs.
Comments
me: I can only think of a handful here in the US, and that would be 40+ on the highway only. Muscle car Power is a good reason to have a car that doesn't get 40mpg.
I'm waiting for the redesigned Golf myself, though if the discounts were big enough on an '04 at the end of the year ...
I'll still keep my Firebird though.
Ugh. These 40-50mpg cars are great for commuting or one driver and a passenger, but worthless for many families. Maybe if you rarely travel. I just returned from a 2,000 mile trip and there is no way in the world we would have fit in my Jetta. I'm not sure everything would have fit in our Audi A6 and it's rather large by car standards today and couldn't get 40mpg with anything less than a miracle. Our Tahoe got 20mpg on the way out, and 15mpg pulling a trailer on the way back. Find me a 40mpg vehicle that can sit 4 adults, one baby seat, a weeks worth of luggage, and can gobble up thousands of miles of mountain highways comfortably. I'm very interested if you can find one.
This should probably be fitting your needs.
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/touran/engines?rangeID=4&- ;bodyStyle=Multi-Purp&engine_id=123
53.3 mpg extra urban. Seats 7 Europeans, so should be good for 4 Americans :-). Yeah I know it is not available in the US. but you gotta admit that it would be sweet.
Villa
For a vehicle that seats 7 that is simply EXCELLENT in my view.
Jeremy
P.S. Still waiting...
I've found one with an automatic trans, I'd rather have the manual. Should I stay away from the auto tranny? Those that have one, how is the excelleration?... Also, I'm checking for the reliability record on VW. Some say so/so (JD Power), others say terrible (Consumer Reports). I've read something of the EGR mod (clogging). Is this an issue resolved or 04 models? How about some REAL owner feed back.. Thanks
The TDI engine is designed to run over 300,000 miles. (using VW design specs and some math) There are many folks who have over 200,000 miles.
The Body has a 12year/100,000 mile warantee. You will not find that on ANY other vehicle in this pricerange.
Question about your name: Do you have a ShelbyDodge? I have some friends that drag-race 2.2L Dodge turbos... It is always so cool to see them put to shame the Hondas and DSM vehicles that have $10,000 of go-fast goodies.
If you are interested in ShelbyDodge... check this out. (download and play it) This is the quickest K-car on the planet humiliating a twin-turbo Supra. (I was in the crowd that day to see this!)
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/video/kcar_vs_supra_long.zip
IMHO, I would never buy a new TDI auto unless I really needed the auto for some reason. The mileage penalty is just too large to pay extra for the autobox. Now if you stumbled across a terrific deal on a used automatic then it might be worth it. There are quite a few other cars you can eek 40mpg out of and are much cheaper than a VW (although they obviuosly don't drive as nicely, etc.). To get the 50mpg you nearly must have a manual tranny.
As for reliability, I guess it depends on what your expectations are. I gave up on buying a vehicle just for reliability a few years back and now just buy what I like. The last couple Toyotas I owned were hardly flawless anyway. I'm at 75k miles on my TDI and the only problems I've had were very small beyond the power window motors going bad (three so far). These were redesigned I believe last year so any of the new ones should be fine. VW also extended the warranty on the older ones so I get free ones if/when they do break.
The only other concern is maintenance. If you plan to have a dealer do all your maintenance, be very careful. Some (many) are outright crooks. I do all my maintenance/repairs myself and I've spent very little on maintenance. This applies to any brand as well, but it seems to be even worse on VW's.
Bpeebles & Seebring95, thanks for both your posts. I'm a shade tree mechanic but usually only on domestics. I had owned a Ford Powerstroke so I'm somewhat familiar with diesels (but not German ones!). Other than what you mentioned Seebring95, I did read about the EGR clogging issue. Maybe it's been fixed for 04. I'm not sure what you meant by "maintenance seems worse on the vw"... cost? more required? Every vehicle/brand has their issues and CR is biased towards Japanese (although their reputation is good).
I got a 2003 VW Jetta TDI new in ap2003. Right now I am approaching 18,000 miles in 7mo(31k yr pace) so far nothing wrong! I have rotated the tires once and have done 5k,10, oil and oil filter changes already.
Somewhat off topic but it has 5 coats of Zaino !
I don't find a big difference between maintenance on domestics vs imports, to some degree. You'll find more special tools needed (although they're readily available) and some things require a quick head-scratch. I've had no problems performing any and all maintenance on my Jetta. Swapped out the struts a few weeks ago. Funny thing is, I tend to do maintenance on my european cars and drop the domestics/japanese off for the dealers. I generally have some degee of passion for my european cars and am willing to spend the time/effort to get the job done right and usually save big money. The other cars I really don't give a squat about and usually aren't very expensive to maintain if you have some sense when getting a dealer to do something. Never drop off a Toyota and say "give me the 30k mile service". You might as well just buy a new car.
The EGR problem isn't an issue with any model, just so you do a quick adaptation to the computer (basically you turn the EGR off) so the intake won't clog. I have the VAGCOM program on my laptop which basically gives you huge diagnostic abilities along with control over many functions of the car. I think I've got $300 in it but it's just cool as can be. Monitor fuel rates, MAF function, read/reset check-engine lights, and on and on. If I had this ability on all my cars I'd never need a dealer.
As for reliability ratings, I have the distinct pleasure of usually always picking a car, and one week after buying, reading/hearing about all of it's problems. For every one positive comment I can find, I can also find a negative one about almost any vehicle. Now....don't get me started on my 2002 Saturn, which I won't drive (nor let my wife), until it's fixed; it's downright dangerous!
Something like 40% or more of their European sales are diesels. When I worked for Garrett turbo I helped develop the VNT15 ... it is a very good unit. When I worked in diesel combustion development I made a presentation to the engineers in Wolfsburg ... arrogant bastards, but good engineers!
Jettas and TDI's have a reputation for good engineering and quality control.
So, here's what puzzles me .... they are a well developed, mature product, successful in a tough market (Europe). How come they have such an ABYSMAL reputation for reliability over here? Or do mostly unhapppy owners post on sites like this but happy owners tend not too?
Can I hear from some satisfied owners to get a more balanced feeling before I make a purchasing decision I might regret? P.S. doing my own maintenance is not a problem ... I rather like it, if that's what it takes to keep one running here in the U.S.
I have a Ap03 Jetta TDI 2003 with going on 18,000 miles. I have had NOTHING wrong with it at all! I started to use Delvac One 5w-40 oil and am doing the 10,000 mile oil and filter interval after the first oil change at 5,000 miles! It is really a kick in the pants to get 45-51 mpg with average low of 600 miles per fill up! It also has 90 hp with 155 #ft of torque! As you well know, the torque is the real surprise! While not a bunny quick accelerator, once you get up to speed, it can cruise with the best of them!
BUT... add in some bean counters who's only job is to save a buck. Let them 'cheepen' the supply chain and build quality... and even the best design will suffer.
Now add that to abysmal dealerships that do little to try to please the customers and you end up with the situation that Volkswagen is in.
The good news is that VW has recognized the problems and addressing some of them. The launch of the Turaeg is coupled with an ACTIVE web presence on (cannot be named here in edmuunds) website. VW has reps that talk directly to customers and LISTEN to them.
Fixing the poor customer relations that many service-departments have will be a bit more of a challange. I am not convinced that VW is aware of the depth of that problem... or how to improve it.
FWIW, I've had very few problems approaching 75k miles now on my '00 Jetta. The only repairs performed by the dealer were two power window assemblies under warranty. Around 65k miles I detected a malfunctioning MAF and a quick scan with a VAGCOM confirmed that. I bought one from an on-line source for $125 and replaced it myself in about 10 minutes. I also had a faulty glow-plug wiring harness which I replaced around 50k miles. If you add up those problems (four) that's ahead of my last Toyota by a long shot. I think most people rate a cars reliability by how easily the small problems are taken care of. If the dealer experience is miserable and their problems don't get addressed or they replace twenty parts, that certainly doesn't make you feel good about the vehicle.
average is 55.3 MPG. Yes there are times I get over 60 MPG and sometimes only
50 MPG. The only problem I have had was when I first purchased the car new in
Oct. 2002 the tires were somewhat out of balance and VW fixed promptly.
I use Mobil 1/ Delvac 5-40 pure 100% synthetic oil and change every 10,000 miles and no
oil useage between changes. Original tires, Continental CH-95/ 195X15X91H. No modifications
on the car and 100% factory stock. As I said in a previous post VW is probably not
the most dependable car but I drive consveratively and do all my own maintaince. I will just
keep on driving and when the time comes maybe get another TDI or possibly a Hybrid.
Alster2
http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=42939
If you find out any differently, please pass the info along.
Also, anyone tried the Shell additive - Rotella? Any better/worse than Diesel Kleen?
I run the Diesel Kleen Supplement (grey bottle) in the summer time because it improves MPG, reduces smoking and keeps things clean.
Any gelling fuel should not affect your MPG but can leave you stranded. The TDI will start at VERY low temps (-10F) but if the fuel is gelled, then the fuel-filter will plug up after driving several miles and the engine will quit.
I have never seen the Shell additive - Rotella, I thought that Rotella was an engine OIL. Any antigell would be fine... as long as you run SOMTHING.
You can also treat the fuel yourself with one of the winter cetane boosters. The anti-gel added by the stations doesn't include a cetane booster, therefore it can effect your economy/performance a bit. Treating the fuel yourself certainly isn't required, but not only will you increase the cetane, but also guarantee you're getting the proper anti-gel and possibly assist in water seperation if you get a bad tank of fuel. Assuming the stations don't screw up, it's probably a complete waste of time. But I don't like to assume anything so I dump a few ounces of treatment in at each fill-up. I swithch back and forth between Powerservice white bottle and Stanadyne. Whichever is easily accessible. I generally don't run anything in the summer.
There is no need to change the filter at 5,000 miles. It will not harm anything though.
There has not been a vehicle built in the last 20 years that NEEDS a 3K mile oil change. (Mainly because the quality of the OIL has greatly improved) Read the owners manual for any vehicle you choose.
My 1976 FULL-Size Chebby Blazer got once-a-year oil changes with Mobil1. (Mobil1 was first released in 1977 and was marketed as a once-a-year oil. I started using it immediatly)
My 1979 VW Scirocco got once-a-year oil changes. (using Mobil1) and it was still running strong at 125K miles.
I can tell you about 8 other vehicles that encounterd NO engine problems with extended oil changes. (they all went over 100K miles)
Having said that, it does need to be said that 3k intervals are an enormous use of money and resources, if you compare it to the normal 15,000 oil and filter intervals I have been doing (over 650k miles) in 7 vehicles. I have been using Mobil One 5/10w-30 and only recently (18k miles) been using Mobil Delvac One, which by all tests and accounts is probably better than Mobil One. Synthetic is simply a superior oil apples to apples! We can surely show how group three oil can be used in pretty cost effective ways, but:
For me I like the side benefits:
1. app once a year or twice a year oil and filter changes (obviously depends on mileage and severity of usage)
2. Less use of resources, using 3k and 15k as examples on a 4 qt Jetta TDI, 20qt vs 4 qt.
3. far less cost per mile lubricated.
4. less product and less frequency in the waste stream.
5. less taxes on all levels of oil usage.
The TDI engine is a TURBOCHARGED, EGR-cooled, Diesel engine. The valvetrain has very high loading on the cams. There is copious amount of soot to deal with in the oil. Volkswagon switched to using ONLY Synthetic oil in the TDI many years ago for very good reasons.
Here is a link to the original TSB which is retroactove back to 1996 TDI engines.
http://pics2.tdiclub.com/members/dieseldorf/PDFs/5W40.pdf
Perhaps the best oil to use in the TDI is Mobil DELVAC1.
http://www.prod.mobil.com/mobil_lubes/onhighway/products_services- - - /delvac1/specs_content.html
Some folks have tried to use NON VW505 oils in the TDI and have noted either excessive cam wear or the cooled-EGR becomes a problem.
For the record, I use 5w-40 Mobil Delvac. 2003 Jetta TDI.
2004 VW TDI's are further complicated by the PD or Pump Duse requirement for VW 505.01
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
As for as fluid recommendations for VW (You mention Audi) I assume that you know that VW and Audi are basically the same vehicles. (Golf, Jetta, New-beatle and Audi TT are all the same platform)
Virtually all of the fluids are 'special' in some way. Although some folks have tried to second-guess the German engineers, they most often cannot find any alternate fluids that work as well. This includes the steering, Tranny and especially the antrifreeze.
German vehicles have a special diet that should be followed. This is not unique, even Asian vechicles have special fluids. (There is no known substitute for Honda powersteering fluid)
Anyway, tonight I just test drove a 2004 Jetta TDI with the new PD-type 100 hp engine. The dealer just got one delivered.
My observations:
1. I insisted the dealer let me start it myself -- it was about 35 outside, and the glow plug lamp illuminated for approximately 3 seconds. The engine started quickly -- however there was a significant amount of visible smoke emitted. It was surprising to see, however, I assume this was normal for a TDI cold-weather start(?)
2. The engine took about a minute to begin idling smoothly. It was initially very rough, but settled down significantly after a few minutes.
3. The fit and finish seemed quite good. The vehicle was a 5-speed configuration and the transmission and clutch were very impressive. I also liked the standard cd/tape radio.
4. Performance was impressive for what I was expecting. I was able to peel out the tires, and acceleration was quite strong from a stop.
5. Brakes seemed good but I couldnt fully slam on them because the salesman was in the car with me.
6. The engine, even with the updated design, was, honestly, somewhat rough. It was noticeably noisy and there was definite vibration felt and clatter heard during acceleration. The noise and vibrations were not terribly bad, and I assume, are something which one would get used to with use. When cruising, the engine clatter/vibration dropped significantly.
7. I did not see the window sticker, but the salesman said the model gets 51 mpg on the highway. The knowledge of this would definitely persuade me to take another test drive during the daylight hours, under different driving conditions, such as on the highway, which I was unable to do today.
Just to touch on some of your comments.
You must keep in mind that you were running a brand new engine that is nowhere near broken in. After 10-20 thousand miles, the TDI engines are much smoother and a bit quieter. If properly broken in, the TDI engine will be a joy to drive and last a VERY long time. (The life expectancy of TDI engine is over 500,000 miles)
Yes, some smoke is not uncommon just after a cold start, especially on a tight, new engine.
Running a Cetane improver will reduce noise, reduce smoke and increase MPG too. Do some research on Cetane.
This leads me to somewhat defend 'moparbad'. I am certain that he was not intending to discourage you. Instead, he was trying to help you decide for yourself if you are prepared for ownership of a TDI engine. (and VW in general) An oblivious owner is asking for trouble. There are many folks that come from previous ownership experience of Asian vehicles expecting a German roadcar to be the same... it is not.
Aisan vehicles are ENGINEERED to be extremely reliable even with minimal maintenance. German roadcars can be very disappointing if the recommended maintenance is not followed. A finely tuned, precision engineered machine needs attention. (If the manual says 10,000 mile oil changes then do it.)
Do yourself a favor and do some more research on TDI engines. That is all that moparbad was suggesting that you do.
BTW: My resume contains fluids, grease and torque among many other things. It is called the Engineering discipline. Having this on a resume provides income for thousands of people. Personally, I cannot even imagine owning a device without knowing how it works and how to maintain it myself. (Dosent everyone know how a CPU works and how electrons are harnessed within them?) Feel free to click on my name above and read my profile.
Power steering fluid, brake fluid and coolant for VW are all VW specific and somewhat difficult to find. If you need to add coolant and add the wrong kind it will cause problems. You can not go to the local Pepboys or Autozone and find these items like you would for nearly any other US or Japan make of vehicle.
If having the VW dealer do everything on your vehicle for as long as you own it is fine, then no problem. Just be aware VW has nearly the worst satisfaction scores for service of ANY make sold in North America. My TDI's would only go to dealer for warranty work.
Other options are-
Maintain the vehicle yourself. Requires mechanical aptitude and finding a source for parts. (Example VWParts.com)
Find an independent shop with experience working on German cars and diesel. Not easy.
Owning a TDI can be a very enjoyable experience as long as you understand what it entails.
If you drive 12-15K or more miles a year and change oil once vs. three to five times, the additional cost of synthetic is negligible if not cancelled. If you drive much less, the cost per year is negligible, too, but perhaps a Diesel is not the right car for you.
I like the idea of hybrids, but find myself oddly (and partially) agreeing with Lutz. Hybrids should have power in both the conventional and electric components; they make more sense in heavier and more costly vehicles that don’t already have good mileage, and the ones available today are best for short drives in the (flat) city. (Because they lack power, discharge when loaded and driven in mountainous regions, have stiff suspension and very basic handling optimized for fuel consumption vs. touring, and are overprized for what you get).
Not sure how long you drove the car, but a Diesel in cold weather takes a while to warm up and get quieter. I drove a 99 base model TDI Golf in Germany for two weeks. After warming up, it was quiet until about 90 mph. The newer ones are not that annoying – you can drive them comfortably way past that mark.
I disagree with the generalization that VWs are very sensitive to maintenance vs. Japanese cars. In VWs, I would stick with recommended timing belt changes and do the water pump at the same time. But then my experience is that just about 20,000 miles later, the same is true for Hondas and Toyotas. I would also only run synthetic in a turbo, whether a TDI, 1.8T, or a Subaru. Heck, I run synthetic in my VW/Audi V6. Other than that, VWs don’t need much attention, and your engine may sludge/leak, your transmission may fail, and your wheel bearings and drive axles may give even in a Toyota/Honda/Subaru. I find the car my wife happens to drive routinely lacking 2-3 quarts of oil, and it is lucky if it gets a change at 12,000 miles. None of my cars have had problems with this treatment, at > 130,000 miles, and running strongly after that, giving them to friends.
- D.
I've only seen about 4 100K plus mile TDI engines disassembled, however, all of them had insignificant wear on internals and I've never heard of lifters and crank being replaced on any TDI of ANY age without timing belt or catastropic engine failure. If the timing belt never failed I would say you either had a turbo failure, engine hydrolock due to water ingestion, or the oil pan was damaged by hitting something and the engine was run without oil. Barring that I would think a dealer or mechanic is being inept or dishonest. Hope that you have seen the damage with your own eyes.
You did not mention under what conditions you took it in for service. Is there anything you are not telling us?... (Like the oil-pressure light was on)
What made you take it in for service?
Are you SURE that it was the CRANKSHAFT that was replaced for $1800... that is quite a bargin.
I have heard of folks that ran the wrong kind of synthetic oil in their TDI have some wear patterns show up on the Camshaft. Are you sure you were using the recommended synthetic engine oil? (never EVER take a TDI to a quiky-lube place they do not even stock the proper oil for a TDI engine)
BTW: There are no "lifters" in any VW engine... they are all overhead camshafts. The Cam works directly on the cam-followers. (some cam-followers are "solid", some "hydrolic" depending on the model year.) I hope you did not pay for lifters.
I have a 2002 Golf TDI with 68,000 Km (40,000 miles) Its a wonderful car, great fuel mileage, fully loaded with heated seats, sun roof, alloys etc.... My wife and I have recently been blessed with twins. Our total child headcount is now 4, or 1 more than legally allowed in a Golf. :0( Not only have we suffered the humiliation of having to buy a wretched minivan, we now need to sell the Golf. Does anyone know of a site dedicated to classified vw ads?
How many camshafts have been replaced due to wear over at that TDI type site where there are close to 20,000 members? Zero to the best of my knowledge.
C'mon rocque, tell us the details.