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Will the 17" rims make production? I wouldn't bet on it. No way would it get bigger rims than the Pilot. Maybe 16s though.
The rear moon/sun? roof was open, so I couldn't tell if it was glass or painted metal.
-juice
Focussed on what gen y buyers expect in a new car and, as we have heard before, social aspects are paramount. They expect excellent entertainment systems (Mach Focus has 500w system?), lots of room, and mobility is almost secondary!?
Excellent discussion of this in link at post 17 above:
http://www.fosters.com/special_sections/autos/articles2001/1030k_01.htm
Read more on carconnection Element details here:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4766&n=156,176&sid=176
Interestingly, Honda is considering "A LARGER MOTOR" !!!! So that's how they can present the 17" wheels. Now what motor would that be? 2.4L is already large for a four-banger; but a stroked and bored 2.6 or 2.8L four banger? Or the "old" Accord 3.0L six-banger?! This is getting interesting!
And robertsmx, you got your wish, rear opening will be removeable glass hatch (non-power).
Excellent question, and one I ask (and have not answered for) myself. Why is the Element appealing and not the CRV for me? What distinguishes the two products to make one attractive?
What I find unattractive about the CRV is the scale of the vehicle; that is the apparant size of the vehicle. In images of the CRV everything is fine; looks good and with all the Honda attributes of efficiency, reliability, quality, and value. But on the road (I followed one after work yesterday) it appears too small, and delicate. Next to a Jeep Grand Cherokee, it was diminutive in height and size (from the back and wearing my glasses), though I realize that the CRV has nearly the cargo capacity of the JGC. Like the PT Cruiser. Good to look at, but standing next to it, looks like a 3/4 scale version of what was expected.
Which brings me to the Element. It may very well be the same ext dimensions as a CRV, but I imagine a larger vehicle. And all of the images I have seen with people make the Element appear larger than the CRV, as if the CRV were a 7/8s relative of the Element. It may just be wishful thinking on my part, or that Honda uniformly uses sub 5'0" models for its pictures, but that is my perception. For example see: http://www.collegehillshonda.com/2002.htm (see Element/Pictures)
I suspect that Honda can translate this visual "scalability" to physical scalability just as they did with the Honda Pilot. Where the CRV is a 7/8 scale version of the Pilot. And by the way, Honda has exploited this visual trickery before; in the concept model of the MDX which was about 7/8s scale of the production MDX. It is so subtle that Consumer Reports published a photo of the new Pilot on the cover of their May 02 mag when reporting on "mini-utes" including the CRV inside.
Here I meant to conclude with tangible differences instead of aesthetic, but haven't succeeded. Let me just say that I would like the Element to be 'much' larger than the CRV in both appearance and volume, and that would provide a meaningful distinction between them.
And I'm pretty sure Element is smaller in length than the CR-V. I think you need glasses ;-) .
Think about it this way What if Pontiac offered the Grand AM and the Pontiac Alero..... See isn't that wierd.
Non-powered glass hatch? Does it slide in or pop out? It was open at the show so we could not tell.
The overhangs do seem shorter, so I bet it's smaller than the CR-V. It does not look small, though, the impression is of height and width.
In person, and this is just my opinion, the Pilot looks nothing like the CR-V. The CR-V's headlights are swept back, and it has lots of styling touches. The rear is Volvo-ish. The Pilot is far more generic, but still handsome.
I noticed that CR mistake, too. They even used the prototype Pilot, which you can tell because of the fog lights. The Pilot shown at NY lost the fog lights and had smaller tires.
-juice
I wouldn't expect the Pilot to look like the CRV either. Afterall it's a rebadged Highlander, right?
I like it but my wife called it a "school bus", LOL. Her car is next so I was hoping she'd like it more.
We'll see about the male/female break down, only time will tell. That is Honda's goal.
-juice
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/roadtest/01.toyota.highlander/01.toyota.highlander.f3-4-2.500.jpg
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/preview/03.honda.pilot/honda.pilot.f34.500.jpg
Anyway I'm obviously joking about the platform sharing, although I think you will agree they look very similiar.......
......Pondering the possibility of Honda plagerising Pokemon designs.......
Oh well who knows I could be wrong, but I think this car is looking for that cute factor, something the average male isn't looking for.
Pilot is bigger, I saw it in person at NY. In size and shape I think Ford Explorer (which BTW just won Edmunds mid-size SUV comparo), but with different styling. Though the look is pretty generic so I'm sure you could find things in common with just about any SUV.
Toyota isn't very daring with their styling (on mainstream cars) and neither is Honda, so no surprise some models look alike.
My 17 year old half sister love Pokemon - I'll have to ask her what she thinks of the Element! ;-)
In a way, the Element does have that Tokyo Auto Show look, an upright boxy shape I mean. Pokemon was created in Tokyo, wasn't it?
-juice
Man subzero why you being mean to my little sis!! She thinks it's cute, something most males aren't looking for.
I don't buy cars based on what my friends or relatives think, but it doesn't hurt if they like it, I guess.
In my case they think the Miata is a toy (it is), but I let them drive it and they return with a smile.
As for my Forester, when I carried all the luggage for 4 lady visitors from Brazil, they liked it simply because everything fit! :-)
And the Element? I imagine if I bought one when I was 17 (bare with me, pretend it was available back then), then my dad probably would have passed out, just as he did when he saw my hair cuts. But that's exactly why I liked my hair - I didn't want to be anything like my dad.
-juice
Autoweek
Honda solves Element challenge, plans to sell 50,000 vehicles
By JOE KOHN
The B-pillar was eliminated in favor of rear-hinged rear doors. With both rear and front doors open, the vehicle has a wide opening to load twentysomething men's cargo - surfboards, mountain bikes and camping gear.
The solution was to attach the rear doors to the floor of the vehicle.
"Most of the force from a crash goes to the floor, so we increased the strength of the floor and the strength of the connection from the door to the floor," said Gary Evert, design assistant large project leader for the Element, at the New York auto show. "We used hook and latcher mechanisms."
The reinforced portion of the rear door is attached at two points to the floor and at one point at seat level. Eric Schumaker, Honda R&D North America's exterior design manager, said, "If we didn't make the doors work and if we weren't going to hit our safety tests, we were going to kill the car."
GM manufactures a minivan under the name of Chevrolet Venture, Oldsmobile Silhouette, Pontiac Montana, and then there are other variants like Buick Rendezvous and Pontiac Aztek. GM's mid-size SUVs (Trailblazer, Bravada etc.) have similarities of their own. Almost every automaker follows this rule, and often they end up with redundant model in their lineup (Audi TT convertible and Audi A4 convertible duo is another example). Said that, I can see enough difference between Element and CRV, especially Element, since it seems to focus on a select group unlike CRV. The advantage of such vehicles is that if one is more successful than the other, the production could be shifted to the one that sells better. If Element fails to please Honda executives, while CRV demand continues to grow with limited supply of the vehicle from Japan and Europe (the two sources of new CRV), the Element production line could be shifted to produce CRV or any other car that shares the platform, and vice versa if Element succeeds and CRV takes a slump. Element, while a daring attempt in Honda's part, is a low risk vehicle for the same reasons.
Acura Element does not make sense, but it is possible that there may be an upscale mini-ute that uses the same platform.
As for Highlander versus Pilot argument, many people say that the Honda looks like previous generation CRV. Does that mean Highlander is actually CRV? When there are conservative two box designs that these SUVs are, similarities are bound to happen. In fact, I see a lot of similarities on the rear end of Pathfinder and 4Runner, as well as that between a JGC and Escape.
With Pilot, Honda went with a boxier, probably a little less aerodynamic shape, compared to MDX (which ties with RX300 to have the lowest coefficient of drag among SUVs at 0.34). And that boxier, more upright shape gave it the additional room too.
I see lots of similarities between vehicles of different makes. It's just a matter of time. There are few truly new designs. Just new interpretations or applications of existing ideas. With the Pilot, I see a bit of CR-V, a bit of Durango, some JGC, and some Highlander. It's a mongrel. The Element is one that shares a few design cues, but applies them in new ways. It may borrow from others, but it does so in a unique way.
TT and A4 are on different platforms. TT is in the Golf family, while A4 and Passat share a platform.
But good point, the Pilot looks more like the previous gen CR-V than the current one. Except from the rear view.
These are three box shapes and it's hard to be original. Kudos to the Element, which succeeds in a big way at being original.
-juice
Varmint,
Perhaps Honda went the same route with the new CRV to reduce the Cd.
The Element sits lower. Honda has circumvented that problem by trying to do the exact same thing as the trucks- they reinforce the bottom of the suicide door with that of the lower body of the Element. But until actual test data is released, I'm still a bit skeptical on this idea. I'm sure it'll be safer than the average suicide door design, but without a B-pillar, I honestly doubt that it will ever be as safe as rear doors with conventional openings.
It was on a truntable though, nobody and get it. So it gives the imprssion that is a "future model" or a concept.
My neightor has a older CRV, it really feel smart from outside. I know is just illusion. But sometimes your eyes just can't tell, even though I have been drawing for 10 years.
Also on size issue, the Matrix feel smaller than person. Yet the new corolla feel monstrous from what I saw yesterday. I almost felt the corollar sedan has more space than the Matrix.
I agree the new CRV looks bigger, althought I only saw one once. I think is the headlight.
-t
Hmm ... that is odd! I'll look into it.
tidester
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Steve
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I like to think that Caba Csere is an even 6'0, though he may be taller. Makes him a convenient (double) yardstick.
Element appears to be rebodied CRV in this clip. Finally provides enough scale for me to judge size of vehicle. Convincing door operation (function and safety). Looks like less ground clearance than CRV and just as tall (66"), if not a little taller.
-juice
-juice
-juice
Any how, it has no effect on Element sales, which I predict will easily meet the 50k per year sales forecast.
-juice
robertsmx:I think they both are boxy and with a high front windshield angle and square head lights.
men, they look like
Greetings From Sunny Miami.
-juice
I think you just described 99% of SUVs and hatchbacks from around the world, not just two of them. Here is another. ;-)
-juice
-juice
Short overhangs = expensive repairs.
Bob