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Comments
I have been ignoring the "Element is Ugly" rhetoric for awhile now, but I gotta say it is appalling. First for the intolerance displayed by these people, second by their ignorance. The Element is beautifully conceived on many levels - functional/ergonomic design, utility, technically, and yes even in shape it is visually appealing.
The true test, as always, is time. We'll have to revisit these attitudes in a few years and then a decade later. Fortunately, for most of us, I am preaching to the choir :-)
As long as the other 10% of shoppers in the segment get it.
-juice
I'm a 40 something female academic type and yeah I'm excited by this vehicle. I do lots of activities with my 2 year old collie and I wonder if Honda knows this may be the perfect dogmobile for those of us who cart agility equipment to trials and our dogs with all their gear. Some of the events are day trips and some for weekends a few hours from home. The lease will be up soon on my Sebring convertible (Inferno Red) and although the dog looks really good riding politely in the back seat of the Chrysler with the top down, I know I have to get some thing practical. And yes, I want it to be distinctive,-- I care a lot about design. My previous car was a Miata, midnight blue with tan leather. The Sebring WAS my way of getting a bit more practical.
I live in Central Virginia and have been on the list (#2, they told me) since September to test drive an EX Auto 2WD as soon as the local dealer gets one in. To kill time and since I love researching cars, I've got a good deal perking along on an MPV LX that would be about $1,400 more than the E's MSR of 19,500. It's possible I won't like the Element once I drive it, or, those Honda salespeople could annoy me.
I'll have to make up my mind quick about the MPV since the dealer incentive will last until just after the first of 2003.
I am just the type of extravert you're talking about who won't mind at all if we are stared at in the sunset orange E. I only hope the cargo area is big enough for the dog, his crate, and a good amount of gear. I only need the 2 front seats so I guess I'd take the rear seats out if it helped with loading it up.
Bottom line is I am a person who needs a minivan or roomier SUV (priced around 20K) and I really don't like my boring choices. So Honda is offering something different and I'm thrilled about that. The only SUV that excited me design wise was the XTerra and frankly, the Element looks like more fun. Anybody else see this as a good dogmobile and wish Honda would cool it a bit on the "dorm room on wheels" schtick?
I'd wait and try an Element.
Get a Miata used as a 2nd vehicle. That's what I did. It's the perfect complement to an AWD practical ride. :-)
-juice
Although, the mileage in the Element is a little disapointing.
The Element is actually very well designed from a styling point of view. The look is very cohesive from front to back, top to bottom. The use of similar shapes in the windows, headlights, and other places is a strong and very effective motif. None of the shapes clash with one another and the body lines are resolved with reasonable care. In this regard, the Element has better styling than the CR-V.
A truly ugly car (we cannot escape comparison with the Aztek on this) will have few themes in the shapes, confused lines, and awkward proportions. That is simply not true of the Element.
What we have with the Element is a styling motif that is non-traditional, not ugly. Automotively speaking, Americans have little appreciation for the box as far as shapes go. We've embraced angular wedges, aero-wedges, over-sized lights, giant fins, bell-bottoms, and plaid pants, but few appreciate a box or simple square. They just aren't used in our culture. It's not because boxes are inherently ugly.
I probably won't buy one because of lack of engine power and because reviews have said the front seats are set very low, like sitting in a bathtub with your knees pointing up in the air and straining to see over the dash and hood. I hate that. I prefer chair-high seating.
I remember when the Nissan Xterra came out many, many years ago in the 1990's and I was excited to go test drive one until I sat in the very low drivers seat that had no height adjustment.
I will have to go sit in one and drive the Element to verify those things for myself, but if it turns out to be true, I won't ever get one.
Manual - Retail $16,100 | Invoice $14,880.64
Automatic - Retail $16,900 | Invoice $15,618.56
2003 Element 2WD EX
Manual - Retail $18,650 | Invoice $17,232.76
Automatic - Retail $19,450 | Invoice $17,970.68
2003 Element 2WD EXS (Side Airbags)
Manual - June 2003
Automatic - June 2003
2003 Element 4WD DX
Manual - May 2003
Automatic - Retail $18,300 | Invoice $16,909.92
2003 Element 4WD EX
Manual - May 2003
Automatic - Retail $20,850 | Invoice $19,262.04
2003 Element 4WD EXS (Side Airbags)
Manual - June 2003
Automatic - June 2003
likes
comfortable seats
better visibility than crv
utility
quieter than crv at 75-80 mph
dislikes
I BANGED MY KNEE ON THE SUBWOOFER
auto shifter too "loose" and awkward
i think the steering stalk like on pilot , oddesey and the 1st gen crv would be better
same to the crv's new shifter though it did seem to stick better than elements
I do not care for the lame stereo no matter who made it or how "loud" it is
my left foot became tired and sore I dont know if it was the dead pedal position or the low seating
low seating I felt like a kid (or one of those 90 lb women driving a suburban)
window too high or maby it was the low front seating plus the design angle in the corner kept me from propping my arm up with the window down
gauges the steering wheel blocked my view of them
cruse was awkward had to reach really far (and search) just to activate it
I roughly measured the length of the bed btw
65' with front seats back and 75' slid to the front
(no room to sit slid all lthe way up as well)
it was very very strange unlike any vehicle I've ever been in.
you just have to sit in it
I'll comment more later when I get rid of this cold
That makes two real world testers who perceive it is "quieter than CRV". You and Isellhondas'.
As for the 270 watt stereo - tell it like it is!
Honda needs to get on the ball and satisfy you (near) Gen-Y'ers.
How about performance & handling comparos as well?
Regardless, Honda will sell out its production to a mostly older crowd.
dindak: space for stuff is a big deal to someone shopping in this segment. Isn't it? I mean, are you looking for lateral g's and steering feedback when you drive one? Or room to fit 2 (dirty) mountain bikes inside?
-juice
...and cost as little as the Element?
The large door openings, AWD option, removeable seats, and big cargo area are huge pluses for a vehicle ranging upward from $17K. Sure, a minivan will offer the same utility, but few are priced that low.
I also think that you can't really push looks aside. The look of the vehicle is part of its function. The styling says something about the buyer and it's not remotely the same message broadcast by a wagon or van.
I hear Honda is supposed to do a Crew Cab off the Pilot platform, so they sure are getting a little more courageous than usual.
-juice
Jon
Like I said, looks aside, the utility / function Honda is trying to sell this thing on just doesn't sound like much more than a gimmick to me. I'll take the CR-V anyday.
It is nippy and fun to drive. I got it out on the interstate and it was comfortable and quiet. It has an auto up/down driver's window.
Negative: Temp spare and a 675 pound payload.
When I got back there were two other people there waiting for test drives. One (a 30-something) of which, who had a 2-day old silver WRX wagon—and just put a deposit down on the Element! Honda will sell every one of these babies!
The one I drove was a green AWD EX automatic.
Bob
MSRP for the Ody may seem close, but actual prices will run about $4-6 grand higher.
Anyhow, lots of people like the "all you can eat" deals. Do you order crabs that way, or by the dozen? :-)
Cool, Bob, I thought they said the 19th was the first day? Oh well.
675 lbs, though? You sure? That's very low. No wonder they made it a 4 seater, you couldn't seat 5 adults without exceeding the payload.
The RAV4 has just 760 lbs payload and I thought that was too low. I'm surprised, too, because they added beefier 16" wheels, so if anything I expected extra payload.
Other impressions? Material and build quality? NVH control? Seats easy to fold? Rear seat comfort? Hose-out-ability?
-juice
Then you would be like most people. However, and I can't believe we have to hammer this so often, the Element is not for most people.
The quality seemed to be typical Honda; need I say more? I didn't have time to go over it with a fine tooth comb, as I handed over the keys to another "tester" as soon as I got back
Bob
-5 speed Jatco automatic,
-7 seats with a magic folding 3rd row,
-the only minivan that lets you open the rear windows
You also get a smaller minivan. That may float for some, but not for me. Kind of defeats the purpose of buying a minivan.
Actual prices for the Ody is not as high as it was before. You'll still pay MSRP or close to MSRP, but it's not in the neighborhood of 4-6K higher. Check out autosite.com for Nov's sales data...Odyssey is the #2 seller. Honda has increased production to try to meet demand. IMO, they're 80% there and there are quite a few dealers willing to negotiate now that they have the Pilot to gauge customers with.
It's been fun while waiting for E to debut :-)
(btw, first post was 01/26/2002, but I won't tell anyone if you don't).
Steve, Host
;-)
Hey, if you can handle the glares of people all the power to you. The Aztek is also a great idea gone wrong. I think both vehicles would do better if they didn't try so hard to different. What the heck do I know.. Aztek still sells so why not Element.
all I came up with was the old motor homes built on truck and van chassis where once you get done driving to your destination you climb up into the passenger living compartment
(I'll bet the E feels exactly like the nissan quest show car in the drivers seat)
just felt weird
I am still in shock especially since no one mentioned it in any of the reviews
Maybe the seat is adjustable or maybe it will be changed for 2004.
I love my Pontiac wagon, but that nice carpet on the load floor drives me nuts. I use it to haul around dirty hubcaps often, and I have to be careful to put down old bath towels before loading them in there, or I'll get permanent black brake dust rings in the carpet. With all the plastic and rubber in the Element, I could just chuck hubcaps in there from all directions, and easily sponge off any residue afterwards. If I had $16,000 lying around, which I don't, I would definitely look at an Element.
-Andrew L
If I havn't bot 02V already, I'd pick E just for the suicide doors and tailgate.
My favorite is the privacy shield:
http://www.hondacars.com/images/2003/element/customize/ELEME03242_large.jpg
Sometimes during finals week, I basically sleep in my car overnight at school since I commute.
Bob
The vehicle is heavy, just under 3500 pounds, for the EX AWD automatic. I suspect the suspension components were not upgraded from the lighter CRV.
Bob
diploid: I like the Ody too, I just don't necessarily like the idea of paying that much for a vehicle you need, vs. want. Plus add a moonroof and an extended warranty and prices get steep.
Aztek sales are poor compared to the Rendezvous, which also costs more. It's a certified flop. Consider how many dealers Pontiac has, and the huge marketing push it got. I mean, c'mon, they were the primary sponsor for Survivor, the #1 show at the time, and still flopped!
Hey Andrew, long time no see. But you'd definitely get the DX with steelies, right? :-)
That shield is cool. A surfer really could change in there. The "bed" looks lumpy, though, take an air mattress to throw on top of them.
Another vote for cladding. The stuff is like teflon. Painting the bumpers means you should budget for maybe 2-3 repaints to cover up dings and scratches. That's about a grand of savings.
Bob: they did use stiffer springs rates, IIRC, and thicker no-sway bars. Factor the tires, and the low payload rating is puzzling.
-juice
Pretty much so, at least for small-mid size SUVs; even for some full-size SUVs/trucks, Toyota for example.
<< Bob: they did use stiffer springs rates, IIRC, and thicker no-sway bars. >>
I don't know.
Bob
But that alone would not increase payload.
-juice
I've with Dindak on the Aztek. I dunno if it was the cladding, but the concept version looked much more athletic than the production model.
Aztec's problem is the sloping D-pillar. They probably did it so they could fit that camping package (some say camo package to hide the ugly rear). But you lose space and end up with a rear that looks squashed.
Then add the flared nostrils, eye lids, gills, etc. Check out the amateur photochop topic here, someone squared off the back and removed all the angry looking scoops on the front and it actually looked pretty good.
-juice
They had an Element in the showroom (MSRP $19K, 2WD). There was another gentleman there giving it the hard eye. He was mid-late 20's and he mentioned his wife an dog a few times. I was only there to take a look, as I just recently purchased the Saturn L-Series Wagon (0/0/0 baby).
First impression was that it was better looking in person than the internet. This was a Silver model. We went through the interior pretty well, put the seats in maybe 10 of the 64 (number repeated by salesman many times) of their possible positions. Including both up againt the side for maximum space.
It was a good amount of room, especially in the height dimension. Odd sized, or large square items will find a home in there fairly easily. My LW wagon technically has more space, but it is certainly not as accommodating in that respect. I briefly stood next to a CRV, which I could easily look over the roof, while the E was taller than I am.
Then, to our surprise, the "E Expert" came over and suggested we test drive it. They opened the double doors and drove it out of the showroom. An odd thing happened, it's dimensions appeared smaller once in motion. In other words, it seemed big parked, but less so on the road (visually).
There are a few considerations as four people stepped in. First, make sure you close the doors in the correct order. Second, the seatbelt is on the rear door, so yes, you do need to make sure it is off before people can get in the back. Neither were a big deal.
Now on the road, the guy I was with was the one to drive. I opted not to drive as I was not in the market, have driven plenty of 4 bangers, and got a real good idea of the ride from the front passenger seat.
It was not all that impressive from my perspective. They guy driving said it drove like his wife's Civic (not my favorite car). The engine was a little buzzy, the ride was bouncy, and for the brief high speed run, the wind noise got pretty loud. There was not any road noise that I noticed. I didn't lean greatly, but you could tell this is not a sedan.
Overall, I was impressed with the packaging. Very practical, and plenty of personality without hitting you over the head with LOOK AT ME. It did lose points on ride and drive. My wagon is faster and smoother. I'm just not a big fan of SUV roadfeel. I would give it a 8/10 for effort, and a 6/10 for personal desirability.
One small note, the driver mentioned that the A-pillar felt like it was in an odd position (too forward?), where he would be looking through his driver side window to be viewing the road in front of him. He felt it was an odd sensation, but something that could be gotten used to.
It slides fore/aft, but so do the front seats and we don't consider each of those different configurations.
So it felt smaller from inside? You think it's the short overhangs? Better visibility?
-juice
The bean counters demanded the model be built on the Montana minivan platform, which affected the overall proportions of the vehicle. then they topped it off by putting tiny wheels on it, which made it look even more ungainly.
Since Bob Lutz has been around, the designers' work has been a little more likely to see production, which should help.
I didn't say it felt smaller from the inside, but rather, it looked large sitting by itself in the showroom, but appeared smaller in dimension as it was driving out of the showroom into the parking lot. I was not in the vehicle while this was going on, so it was an outside perspective thing. Maybe it had to do with that in the showroom, you pretty much had to stand right next to it, while once it was outside, you could view it from several feet back.
Now, factor in the weight (payload plus tongue weight if a trailer is being pulled, full tank etc. etc.), a 3600 lb. vehicle is likely to get very close to the limit on the tires (also factor in weight distribution since tires will have different weight to carry).
In other words, if E were lighter by 200 lb., it could have used that towards additional payload. In fact, 2WD version may actually have a higher payload, if Honda chooses it to be.
Bob
Concept of the Aztek looked pretty good, but it was still ugly IMO. Wonder if they will kill it or redesign for 04/05?
Element has 2 things going for it.. Honda's reputation and a realistic sales goal. Aztek sales were projected way high (75K+). Honda projects 40K for Element I believe.