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Honda Element

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Comments

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The trouble with removable seats is that you need to have somewhere to put them. Honda may figure that the target audience isn't likely to own a garage.

    That said, it would be nice if it were an option. This thing is more van than SUV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, never thought of that. The New Beetle manages ultra-cheap bumper basher damage, so there are exceptions.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    interesting to see how the Mini-Cooper does as far bumper testing goes. There's precious little crush space before you encounter the tires. My guess is that it will be very expensive to repair.

    The Element may fair a bit better, in that there is a bit more front and rear overhang.

    Bob
  • ffitzffitz Member Posts: 13
    How the marketing types are shooting for a very young demographic. I am forty-something and find the Element very interesting and practicle in terms of it's design. I enjoy fishing and have 2 dogs. The suicide doors are practicle in that it really opens space up for carrying things, and the clamshell type rear hatch is also a practicle design and one you see on your high end SUV's (ie. Range Rover, Land Cruiser, etc.) I am very curious to see it in the metal. From what I've been reading, it should be fairly easy on the pockets pricewise. I live in Alaska, so the AWD would be my choice. I am going to give the Element some serious consideration as I will be in the market for an inexpensive SUV.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The clamshell rear gate isn't my favorite. With it open, you have to lean over it to get to the cargo. However, it should work well with dogs. You can open the top half and get at the cargo area without having the puppies jump out and chase all the moose away. =)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I'm not wild about the clamshell rear gate either. Now if the bottom part dropped down to be a ramp—that I would like, a lot.

    Bob
  • subzero206subzero206 Member Posts: 111
    if it had a 4Runner style rear gate with the power window that i would like a lot =)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That reminds me of Saab's clever idea - a slide out shelf. This is really the best of both worlds. You have shelter from rain, and you don't have to lift things over the bumper, yet you still have plenty of space for crumple zones.

    What about a slide-out shelf that also tilted down as a ramp? Roll your bikes right up instead of lifting them.

    To be honest, Honda doesn't have the same problem Toyota has with older demographics. Civic owners are 8 years younger than Corolla owners.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know Honda recently stated that they weren't going to enter the pickup market, at least not in the near future. However, at some point in the future I *do* see them offering a pickup. I don't see how they can avoid it, frankly.

    When they do... I bet they pick up (pun intended!) on the styling cues already established by the new Element. Specifically, I see them using the square wheel well cladding.

    BTW, I've seen some early sketches of the Liberty (in the Liberty brochure) in which they also explored that same type of square wheel well cladding.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting...it's pretty hard to be original nowadays. Almost everything has been done before.

    I think an Open Element, with some type of opening mid-gate, would hold them off until a pickup arrived. I think there is plenty of room in the market for a clever Crew Cab, and the Baja isn't quite there yet (too much cladding, no H6, no full functioning mid gate).

    The Pilot platform is another possibility, but the powertrains may not be well suited for a pickup - Honda requires a power steering cooler and an engine oil cooler before they allow any towing whatsoever. Or at least those things would have to be standard on a pickup.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    What after Honda switches its entire lineup to EPS? That is the direction they seem to be heading in near future.

    For a true pickup, Honda will also need to introduce low-gear option. It would help improve towing capabilities as well.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I know Honda was (is?) considering a pickup, and most likely a full-size model with a V8. There had been strong rumors that Honda might use a GM V8 (a horrible thought, I know) because Honda doesn't (yet) offer a production V8 of any sort.

    So Honda can now tip-toe into the truck market with the Element, which, I think, could down the road, be a harbinger of future Honda truck styling. The Element certainly gives Honda a "truck look," which could easily be expanded upon. Think of the Element as to what the original CRV is to the new and much larger Pilot; clearly the strong family resemblance is there.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Honda should use the Isuzu diesel. I believe they already use a few smaller ones in Europe.

    If the Ody 240hp engine needs an oil cooler to tow, that engine doesn't belong in a pickup. The Duramax makes 215% of the torque of an Odyssey engine.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    if Honda enters the pickup market, it will be Tundra-sized, or larger. That being the case, you need a V8 to be considered a player.

    A (clean!) diesel and/or a gas/electric hybrid would also make sense, given Honda's commitment to the environment.

    Bob
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Actually, I would expect something about the size of a Dakota; bigger than the average pick-up, but not quite the hulking monster that the Ram is. The Tundra is actually quite small and compares with the Dakota in terms of size.

    An Element with a pick-up bed would be pretty flimsy. Honda would have to do quite a bit of work to make the structure rigid enough. Same deal with the Ody/Pilot/MDX platform. I'm sure that's why we have the cross-member between the rear "moon roof" and the glass window over the tailgate. The Element needs that structural support.

    If Subaru isn't offering the H6 in the Baja, it may be for the same reasons. They wouldn't want people to mistake to for a "real" pick-up. It's supposed to be a fun truck. The 4 cyl engine will keep away those buyers who expect to do heavy duty work with it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The full size market is hyper competitive, and Nissan will enter the market soon, too.

    GM is Subaru's biggest shareholder, so perhaps they held back the H6. I think it'll eventually get the H6.

    I see the Crew Cab market as wide open. All are trucks except Baja, and that's only a 4 cylinder. It has the car-based crowd all to itself.

    So that market would be easier to crack than the full-size pickup market. Honda just might try. Imagine an Element Crew Cab. I can.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Honda, if they enter the pickup market, not to offer one that can't handle a 4' x8' piece of sheetrock flat on the floor. Heck, the Odyssey (and Tundra) can do that—and a Dakota can't. So, again, I say Tundra-sized (or larger).

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe 5 years from now, or more. Maybe 10.

    Honda sits on the side lines, scopes out the market, measures the competition. Then they come out with what they think is the next big thing. Look at the Odyssey - it only arrived, and I mean successfully, 15 years after Chrysler did it.

    I still don't know. Honda doesn't do body-on-frame any more. They have no appropriate engines, either. Toyota had plenty of trucks before the Tundra arrived.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    If you look at the variety of engines Honda makes starting from lawn mowers, power generators, marine, motorcycle to automobile engines (latest of their ventures being Jet engines, yes they have developed an airplane of their own and plan to diversify into that area), from single cylinder engine to, V2, V4, I4, I5, F6, V6, racing V8, V10, etc., turbo charged or not, using OHV, SOHC, DOHC configuration, it would take little for them to deliver engines appropriate for use in trucks. They are simply reluctant to get into that market, may be because they do not have enough resources to carry out the production. They have not had their own diesel engines though, something that has hurt them in selling cars in Europe. For now, they have partnership with Isuzu and hope to have their own diesel ready in a year or two. They may enter the pickup truck market in a few years, but not until 2005, as Tom Elliott pointed out in a statement.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't see a Honda pickup until sometime after 2005. I'm sure, if they enter the pickup market, it will be different from anything else on the market. Also, the next premium Acura will have a V8. So that engine, as with the Lexus LS430 V8, will be the natural starting point for a truck engine.

    In any case, they've certainly planted the seed with the new Element...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting - I hadn't thought of all the other areas where Honda Motor Company ventures. It would still be a big step for them.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I wouldn't expect to see a truck soon. Honda has undergone a rapid (from their perspective) growth spurt in recent years. They've introduced more brand new designs in the past few years, than they did in the last two decades. I suspect they'll need time to get accustomed to the recent changes in production, infrastructure, and changes in the market.

    I'm also betting that the only reason why the Element got voted into production is the fact that it's based on an existing platform. A truck could not be. That means new manufacturing equipment and a dedicated line. That gets expensive. It's not an image car, like the S2K and NSX. Justifying those costs on a mass production scale would be difficult.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I do know they've been actively investigating that market, however. I think it's just a matter of time before they make the jump.

    Bob
  • jimjpsjimjps Member Posts: 146
    The 2003 Element engine and transmission are the same used in the Honda Stream, which is not avaialble in NA and is the current biggest vehicle based on the new Civic chasis. See the Honda Japanese site and you will see the similarities. I believe the Stream is available in AWD and the chasis and mechanical similarities are closest to that vehicle.
    I was hoping they would import Stream, but they had to SUVize it for the NA market. Honda did a lot of work to keep the floor low and this will really help the utility of this vehicle.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I think Element is a better vehicle for American market than Stream. Also, Stream uses a detuned version (154 HP/139 lb.-ft) of the K20A engine with/without AWD, but Element supposedly will carry 2.4 liter I-4 shared with (American) CRV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I prefer some of the Accord-based wagons over the Stream. Honda should bring those back.

    Maybe not - Element will be more profitable and will helps with the CAFE average of extremely profitable Odysseys and Pilots.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I second that!
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is Honda's AWD (RT4WD?) answer to the Subaru Outback. I seen pixs of it, and am impressed.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, that's it. Handsome, too.

    There's even another Accord derived wagon, I forget the name.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep. Honda called it a tall wagon when it was released, and goes against Outback directly. And it was spotted in Ohio (by Motor Week) about two years ago. Then I thought that it might be another Honda (besides TL) that is exported out of Marysville plant to Japan. BTW, the engine options are identical to American Accord (with or without AWD), but V6 (tweaked to 215 HP) gets 5-speed auto (shared with TL?)

    Juice, there is an Accord wagon too, but offered with a choice of 2.3 liter I-4 SOHC (150 HP/152 lb.-ft, same as American Accord) and 2.3 liter I-4 DOHC (200 HP/165 lb.-ft), with or without AWD.

    Avancier
    Accord Wagon
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Heck, I like 'em both!

    Maybe the next gen Accord will get a variant like that. But maybe not - Honda probably makes more profit from selling CR-Vs and Pilots.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    To me they're both going after pretty much the same customer.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Accord wagon would probably be better for the US market. It looks bigger, though that could just be my impression.

    -juice
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    jimjps :

    I hope you are right about the 107" wheelbase from the Stream applied to Element.

    This may explain why Element looks good (proportionally correct) even with the large 17" wheels and tires.


    http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto/stream/200010/20.html
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    USA Today's James Healey:

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/bcovthu.htm
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I think only Honda fans are routing for this vehicle. Several anti-Honda people I know are already carving their knives...this will be revenge for GM's Aztek jokes.
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    diploid:
    Maybe so, but Honda can do no worse than the original 1983 (?) Prelude. Remember that forgettable car? Went on to become an outstanding coupe renowned for excellent handling and an overachieving four cylinder motor.....til its demise last year.

    The beauty of a utilitarian vehicle is that, when all is said and done, you still have a functional vehicle.

    Furthermore, while the Aztec is functional, it is not particularly attractive.
    The Element is.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Remember it had 4-wheel steering?!

    Yeah, I absolutely agree. The Element is attractive, in a quirky sort of way.
  • subzero206subzero206 Member Posts: 111
    the exterior design of the Element does not even compare to the Aztek, Element is much better looking. to me, it looks more like a Mercedes G500 =)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Element will sell well, so Honda will get the last laugh. That's what counts.

    Aztec took a minivan and removed utility. Element is full of utility. They are polar opposites.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When are these coming out again?

    We've actively started car shopping for my wife. Her 626 is officially up for sale.

    I'm waiting to see the 2003 Forester, and I'd like to drive an Element, too. She also wants to sample Camry, Altima and Legacy sedans.

    I like the CR-V, but a couple of details make me like the Element more - the lift gate, those rims, and the styling. Not to mention the price. A local no-haggle dealer has EXs for $22,800, while the Element is supposed to top out at $21k. And I hate the fact that you can't get an LX with ABS.

    We require 5 speed manual, ABS, cruise, PS/PW/PL, A/C and keyless. Not mandatory but highly desirable are AWD, alloys, moonroof, heated seats, CD, and leather. Any suggestions?

    -juice
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    juice:
    December
    I think the 5spd awd will be a winner in price, utility, and fun to drive quotient. Kinda like a "rally van".
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Man, that is really stretching it for us. I just got a call from a potential buyer for the 626, so we may be shopping as early as next week (we're out of town this weekend).

    Bummer, I think it would be cool to own something that turns heads like that.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Moonkat - That's surprizing. Are you sure about that? I wouldn't think that we'd have this much information about it if Honda weren't going to release it soon. You know how Honda can be. I was expecting (for no particular reason) a release sometime over the Summer.
  • moonkatmoonkat Member Posts: 265
    varmint;
    Regrets.
    Official Honda info and College Hills Honda site mention this. Think this is part of their quarterly release plan. Civic IMA in March; Pilot in June; 03 Accord in Sep (?), and Element in Dec.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't mind comparison-shopping a new Accord, either, but that too may come a bit late for us. I'm showing the 626 to a potential buyer tomorrow, and the wife wants to go car shopping next Wednesday.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I suppose Honda can afford to release more information regarding the Element since it doesn't compete directly with anything else in the lineup (not like the 2002 CR-V vs the 2001 model).

    However, the same applies to the Pilot. My spy article is based on seeing one in a dealer's lot and Honda didn't release any specs until yesterday. I'll never understand marketing... :(
  • denise31denise31 Member Posts: 21
    Does anyone know if you have to open the front door to the element in order to open the 2nd door?
    also, will the element have power doors and locks? what about colors? navigation system?
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    I'm pretty sure the front doors would have to be opened prior to getting the rear doors to open. At least that's how it's always been with trucks and full-size vans.

    As for colors, I'm really hoping that it comes in a monochromatic scheme. I'm too conservative for the 2-color theme that they have going on.
  • denise31denise31 Member Posts: 21
    if anyone gets a chance, please check out www.hondanews.com and look at the model X, to me the model X looks larger and the doors look different. Will there be a model X and an element, or just a element?
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