Honda Element

bwiens1 · August 2003

I get on and off freeways a lot, as we all do, and find the Element is plenty good at accelarating. I have no problem beating out most other cars. If I press the pedal down a bit, but not close to flooring it, it jumps up and moves great. Given that this is a 4cyl big thing in a small package, I am totally happy with its ability to jump on a green light and get on freeways without any of that horrible innefectual whining many cars have.

anonymousposts · August 2003

I have the same 2.4L engine in my Accord and it really is an awesome engine. Quiet and it seemingly has power in any gear.

varmint · August 2003

Anonymous - I've spend some time in my sister's 03 CR-V and would have to agree. It' a very flexible engine.

BTW, congrats on the family addition.

900pres · August 2003

I am very interested in purchasing a new Element but would like to know when the 2004's are going to be available and what changes are going to be made. Anyone have any information?...thanks.

bigkahunafl · August 2003

My sales rep said they are due in Sept. She has not heard any specifics as to changes. Rumors are keyless entry on EX as well as arm rest for passenger seat. Keyless entry is the one I want added.

xweb · August 2003

I live in Germany and am seriously considering buying an Element. I am now facing the 2WD vs. 4WD question. Any opinions on 2WD on wet roads, in snow, or in mud? I'll be facing lots of bad weather soon.

Also, does the 4WD add anything else besides the moonroof for $1100? Although that does seem like a fair price for this upgrade.

I'm thinking EX w/side airbags, just can't decide on whether 2WD is safe enough.

Thanks for all the great tips! I love this board!!

sailoverfuel · August 2003

Yikes...the hitch is almoust $500. I jusy got the E a month ago and of course (Murphy's Law) I need a hitch SOON. Did not count on having a small sailboat but now I do.

Can we get aftermarket Hitches and Balls, if so were. At $500 is worth more that the boat.

Couls someone advice...and finally what was the towing max on the E? Doeas anybody know????

Thanks

bigkahunafl · August 2003

There are always after market trailer hitchs, but if you want a Honda hitch check a site like
http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementext.html

ateixeira · August 2003

Shop for a Hidden Hitch or a Draw Tite, those are usually much, much cheaper. Some go for as little as $80, though you'll also need a harness.

I bet Honda outsources production of that type of accessory. I know Subaru does, then they mark it up. Even then I paid $180 for mine, OE Subaru. $500 is insane!

Do they include an oil cooler and a power steering cooler? I know they do for the Odyssey. That might explain it.

Edit: looks like no, Handa had it for $212. They say even list is under $300. That dealer is trying to rip you off.

Towing capacity is 1500 lbs for the Element.

xweb: you'll only find out FWD was not enough if you get stuck. Do you really want to wait until you're stuck? Get 4WD. In the snow and mud you'll benefit from it.

-juice

bigkahunafl · August 2003

I noticed the list price on the Handa site too - just didn't want to rub salt in the dealer inflicted wound.

robr2 · August 2003

Perhaps it's $500 installed?? Or perhaps that includes the wiring harness which is $168 list?? That would bring total list to $463. Also take a look at the installation instructions at the earlier link. The hitch is fairly straightforward - the harness is not. First 2 pages are Honda legalese. 3-9 is for the harness including removal and reinstall of bumper and many interior bits. 10-13 are for the hitch - with the bumper on.

I thought the CRV hitch was a joke to install!!

robr2 · August 2003

...I can't believe how many Elements I'm seeing around Boston driven by all sorts of folks - most skewing older. I saw a silver one this AM - with a nice mesh grill on it.

micweb · August 2003

I believe Honda has "on demand" 4WD - the rear wheels will only activate if the front wheels are slipping. In other words, if you are bogged down. Which isn't usually the case on typical snowy roads.

Subaru uses "all wheel drive" where a portion of the power is always sent to the back wheels - this helps much more on curves and snowy roads.

The main advantage to 4WD of the Honda variety in California, is that it will save you having to put on chains when the "chains required" signs are up in the mountains. Even though in those conditions the 4WD really doesn't help. (In the midwest and eastern USA, people get by without 4WD or chains all the time.)

I have been told that "traction control" systems that prevent wheel spin and slides by selectively activating the ABS system on a wheel by wheel basis are almost as good as AWD in keeping you out of trouble on snow and ice; and also that snow tires on FWD cars are better than regular tires and 4WD or AWD.

So there are a lot of ways of approaching the 4WD issue. (Of course 4WD is essential for off-road use, but the Element is not really an off-road car, with or without 4WD.)

The Elements 4W is totally useless on wet roads - it simply doesn't activate in a timely fashion. The Subaru AWD, VW 4 Motion, and Audi Quattro systems are designed for wet roads. They use all four wheels, all the time.

ateixeira · August 2003

$463 is outrageous. Sounds like the install isn't that straight forward, either (it was for my Subie, fortunately).

Do you have a Trick Trucks or a U-Haul near you? Those types of places do it. Even Pep Boys does.

-juice

varmint · August 2003

Micweb - Ummm... yes and no.

RT4WD is a reactive design. That's true. However, it is much faster and more effective than you seem to expect. The rear wheels will kick in after the front tires spin about one quarter of a turn.

The main advantage is that it allows the vehicle to remain in FWD mode when power to the rear is superfluous. The drivetrain is more efficient this way, which promotes good fuel economy and acceleration.

Traction control systems will help you accelerate in slippery conditions by preventing power from "leaking" out one side of the differential. They don't do all that much for cornering and handling. (They don't do anything unless you have your foot on the gas.) You need a stability control system that manages all four wheels to balance a car in a slippery turn.

I agree that proactive or full-time AWD is the best in terms of absolute power distribution. But your paper assessment of reactive systems is considerably weaker than experience has shown.

ateixeira · August 2003

The catch with traction control is it retards momentum. Some times you actually want a little wheel slip.

My friend leased a ML320 and actually turns it off in the snow, he thought it was a nuisance.

Also, a FWD vehicle going up a steep hill is a recipe for disaster. All the weight transfers to the rear axle. The fronts have no traction and aren't likely to get it even with traction control.

Consumer Reports' test a couple of months back had AWD better than even snow tires on FWD, IIRC. The advantage was slight, but imagine both with the same tires.

-juice

bigkahunafl · August 2003

Have you ever seen another E with the mesh grill? Is that a standard E accessorie?

mtngal · August 2003

Where in Germany are you? I think it would depend on where you are. Years ago I lived in Mannheim and Karlesruhe and had a (then) boyfriend (now husband) in Lahr. I often drove to Heidelberg and Kaiserslautern. When I first went over there I had a 3/4 ton Dodge van, then sold it and bought a mustang (tons of fun!). I never felt a need for 4x4 on those roads (though I did drive carefully when it was icy).

I do agree that the main benefit of an AWD Element for me is to go around the chains required checkpoints. I currently use a Wrangler to do that, but have discovered that its system doesn't help much on icy roads.

xweb · August 2003

So I don't expect to be driving through snow as often as on wet roads and/or icy roads. But I do have a somewhat steep road to climb to get to my house, lined with cars on both sides--I don't want to slide into anyone in my new Element!

Of course, over here, the roads are cleaned pretty quickly, and the car I have right now, a 15-year-old Opel Kadett hatch (FWD), has not given me any trouble, although I am very careful to drive slower when it's wet or icy or snowy.

micweb, varmint, ateixeira--thanks for the material to think about! It does sound like the AWD system would be somewhat helpful, but perhaps I could make do with snow tires. Of course, then I'd be spending as much for a second set of winter wheels and tires as the AWD costs anyway!

I used to live in Montana, had a 1984 Toyota Tercel wagon with 4WD I engaged with a lever. It did help, but I still managed to slide into a curb when I took a turn too fast (driving on packed snow). Then I had a 1991 Nissan Sentra 4WD (full-time) which was great in winter driving but otherwise a lemon. I liked having the flexibility of 4WD, and it came in handy a few times when parked on muddy logging roads.

Plus the weight penalty of AWD for performance--it doesn't appear to affect the gas mileage much, but the extra couple hundred pounds must have some impact on performance. Anyone driven both versions?

I'd absolutely love to test drive an Element, but unfortunately there's only one military-related dealer, and they have none in stock--whenever they get one in, it gets sold immediately!

I guess I'm leaning towards 4WD now, even though I can't get it with a stick through this dealer.

Anyone ever ship a car overseas? Maybe I can buy one in the States and have it shipped over if it's not too expensive.

You all are lucky to have all those Honda dealerships to test drive at! Maybe I need to make a special trip just to go test driving.

Of course, then the 2004s will come out and I'll be confused again. Thanks everyone, you all make this one of the best forums I've seen.--x

bowke28 · August 2003

i think winter tires can do more for you than all wheel drive can. it doesnt matter what wheels have traction if your tires dont have grip.

varmint · August 2003

Juice - I think C&D came to the opposite conclusion. I think the 4X4 they tested was a Rover, but I can't recall the Blizzak-shod 2WD opponent. Both CR's and C&D's are probably valid tests, just different conditions.

Bigkahunafl - I don't think it's an OEM accessory, but you can try Handaaccessories.com. FWIW, I've read articles describing how to create your own mesh covers. The best looking one I've seen used gutter-guard material with a nice aggressive-looking diamond pattern. I've also seen an "Element of the month" with two riveted metal plates up front.

Send me an e-mail for details.

zenzikora · August 2003

perhaps one magazine used a FWD with snow tires, and the other a RWD?
I think FWD with snow tires is pretty easy to deal with in the snow, our big RWD van was OK probably because we took it easy and had enough weight to keep the tires planted, and the Mid-Rear Fiero was awful on only 1 inch. I have never driven AWD in the snow, so I figure I'll be fine with Front and snow tires.

ateixeira · August 2003

Probably depends on what all-season tires you compare the winter tires to. There are good and bad all-season tires.

I'd still pick good all seasons with AWD over FWD with snow tires.

-juice

zenzikora · August 2003

I probably would too, if I had an extra $1400 to spend, instead of the few hundred for snow tires, but I don't, so I figure I'm better of dealing with FWD and not spoiling myself . . .
Haven't crashed or gotten stuck yet, though I had a rough time once before I got snow tires on going up a steep hill from a standstill. And I don't stay home when it snows either, unless it's really bad.

kjab · August 2003

I'm wondering about the cabana. Is it worth the $? I go camping often and thought this might be worth trying out, but will skip it if too complex to set up or too flimsy. Also, how about that armrest console - seems like we could use a few more storage spots. Has anyone installed one?

I bought a 4WD EX green a few weeks ago and am really enjoying it! Everyone I show it to loves it too.

Thanks for any feedback.

rockymtelement · August 2003

Ok, this is a late response, but better late than never. Yes, I am actually in Colorado. I bought my Element at John Elway. Good experience there over all. I'm moving to Arizona this week however, so will need to find a service center there.

Had the Element for 3 months now (3400 miles) and still love it. It's great for my family of three and any outings we take.

s852 · August 2003

Where are some good high-res photos clearer and larger than what you can see on the Honda.com web site?

stever · August 2003

Try google.com and click on the Images tab.

Steve, Host

mbatt · August 2003

hi folks,

this is my first time posting a message, because i am quite intimidated by writing/chatting online in open forums, particularly when everyone is seemingly so well informed and you(that'd be me)don't know much about anything. anywho, i will try to be brief, though i probably won't be:o/... i'm a working class, middle aged broad that does not purchase a car every 4-5 years, vowed to never ever purchase a brand new car again, and is(was)quite happy to be rollin' in my PAID FOR! hooptie...that is...until i saw the ad for this stupid car in nov'02...i was pretty much done for...by dec'02 i learned of this discussion board and i've been checking in ever since...thankfully you guys talked me down from my Element induced high that had me wanting to buy the first one off the production line(lack of funding is a pretty good buzz-buster also:o|)...blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda...okay, so today i signed about ten undotted lines for a:
EX 2WD Automatic(G/Green)
Fog Lights
Wheel Locks
Splash Guards
TOTAL sale price: 20,600.00

so, from 1 to 10, ten being "You go girl!" and one being "Dude, you got jacked!"...send me a some numbers kindly people...

thanx in advance for all of your input, because i probably won't be back...again this was my first time In Life! jumping on one of these thingys and i am really just completely out of my element:o|...yes, cheesey pun one could see coming from down the block and around the corner was fully intended...tee hee...sorry folks...thanx again...okay...bye...

mtngal · August 2003

Oh no, you can't just fade back into the woodwork again now that you own one of these practical vehicles! Let us know how it goes with it!

I can't give you any idea about what type of deal you got compared to other people - I haven't talk money to anyone yet. However, here's how I think about it: if you want that particular vehicle more than you want the dollars, then you've done the right thing. I love my 5 year old (and also paid for) Wrangler and while I only got a fair, not great, deal on it, it has been worth every cent I paid for it. We also own a 2000 Tacoma, which I dislike intensely. I got an excellent "deal" on it but for me it certainly isn't worth the money I'm paying for it. If I could afford to take a huge loss on it, I would dump it in a heartbeat, but it isn't yet worth what I owe on it, and I can't afford to take such a hit.

Bottom line is if you are happy with the vehicle, you got a good deal.

mbatt · August 2003

...come to think of it when i bought my crx si 13 years ago, the dealer got a nice chunk of my hide(and pride)...but no matter, because my little bugger has served me quite, quite well...in spite of the fact that i haven't always taken the best care of it:o( ...thanx again for the sage advise and as of right now, i'm gonna just flow with that!

zenzikora · August 2003

I would generally say anything about midway between invoice and MSRP (including add-on options prices as well) is a pretty good deal on an Element. I have gotten quotes between 120 and 300 over invoice, but I'm looking for a 5-speed EX so I think they might go cheaper being harder to sell (maybe?), but I won't be adding any options and I know they can be expensive.
BTW my parents have paid full MSRP on every car they've bought (I'm old enough now to tell them what they should pay - thanks to Edmunds). And they never thought to do anything else, so really no matter what you paid, there are people who got burned worse out there! Elements are a good value even AT MSRP.

bowke28 · August 2003

your parents, however, have most likely been perfectly happy with not haggling, doing business in an hour instead of 4 or 5, and going on their merry way. JD power has proven time and again that price has NOTHING to do with a good deal. a good deal is a deal that both parties are happy with. also, a new study shows that the less time someone spends making a car deal, the happier they are about their experience...regardless of the price they paid.

stever · August 2003

lol, spoken like a true car dealer.

Better change your spiel; consumers are getting better educated every day, thanks to people like Zenzikora.

I do agree with you about the time factor. That's why I negotiated my last two cars via fax and email. The less face time with a car salesperson, the better.

Steve, Host

purduealum91 · August 2003

I think you paid too much. Around here (Chicagoland), I can get an EX 4WD auto for $19,200.

ateixeira · August 2003

10. Who cares what other people paid in other regions with more/less demand and wealthier/poorer buyers?

If the dealer treated you with respect, you are happy, you like the car and ended up with what you wanted, that's a 10.

Congrats.

You keep your cars forever so you probably won't even remember what you paid for it in 8 years.

Say you could have saved $200. 200k miles later, that adds up to 1/10th of a cent per mile. Whoop-de-doo.

Enjoy.

)

-juice

zenzikora · August 2003

I was just told that 5speed Elements will not be available till mid-October. I'm assuming that no more '03's will be shipped. This is of course, after a month of waiting after being assured that my car would be arriving right around now. . .
Now I'm stuck. I need a car, much sooner than October (before the one I'm driving quits on me). I'll probably look into any 5spd Foresters I can find, or Automatic 2wd E's and CR-V LX's.

So, people with Automatic E's, Do they have enough Get up and Go to keep ya happy?? Still fun to drive?

ateixeira · August 2003

Only one way to tell...take a nice, long test drive.

Peppy to one person might feel slow to another, and vice-versa.

-juice

zenzikora · August 2003

You're right, of course, but I'm still sighing over my loss :-(

footie · August 2003

FYI folks: Herb Chambers' online inventory shows 7 4WD EX Elements with 5speed trannys in stock. MSRP's are $20 - $21K.

bowke28 · August 2003

yes, they are out there. your dealer should offer to locate one for you. if they dont, go to another dealer. ive had quite a few people tell me they bought from me JUST BECAUSE i offered to locate a car for them.

zenzikora · August 2003

Well I emailed around and found one dealer who called and left a message saying he had one in stock, but he didn't specifically say 5-spd so it may be an auto. I'm looking for a 2WD 5-spd. Some dealers have said they can get 4WD in a manual, but the 2WD manuals are pretty rare. I think it's kind of silly when the car is aimed at young people to not have the cheapest EX available. ..
The dealer that said they couldn't get any till Oct. had told me they looked around and tried to get one in. As it is I will have to drive almost an hour if this place really comes through. They did seem very willing to trade cars to get the right color etc., so if they can get me a 5-spd at a good price (still important, I'm not rich), I am ready to drive. . .

edit: he just called and said he does have one in stock. I can come test-drive whenever I want. Yay!

bowke28 · August 2003

oh...a 2WD...you didnt say that...lol. you cant get an EX in 2WD in a manual...only a DX.

ateixeira · August 2003

New and popular models generally are sent to dealers with lots of equipment. It's actually what most consumers want, believe it or not.

-juice

zenzikora · August 2003

I didn't say 2Wd in the first post b/c that dealer didn't have ANY 5-spds. The dealer I am going to today says he has what I'm looking for.
And YES they make them, just not many I guess. . . And I realize most people will want more equipment (though in this case it's only 4WD or an auto that we're talking about, the rest is standard anyway), but if they really want the target demographic to be able to buy this thing, it doesn't seem like only stocking 4WD auto EX's is gonna help much, right? I can't see for me spending the extra 1400 when I would only want 4WD maybe 3 times a year; I don't want it unless I am actually slipping in the snow, and that's not that common really here in PA. This last winter was an exception of course:-o

anonymousposts · August 2003

bowke: Well that's strange because we test drove a silver EX 2WD and I'm pretty sure it came equipped with a clutch and one of those little doohickeys that you move back and forth on the dash.

Besides, you can build a 2WD 5-speed Element on Honda's website.

aquaswimmer · August 2003

Yes Bowke, they do make 2wd EX 5spd. I've been driving one for the last several months.

It's very fun to drive..the stick shifts like butter.

I'll tell you what though...if I could go back and buy again I'd get a 5spd 4WD.

The stick 4WD's were not available when I bought my element and since I live in LA I thought I would never need it but I wish I had it sometimes.

The 5spd Element has a fair bit of torque and I find it can be somewhat squirrely on gravel driveways or when going up a steep hill and whenever I take a corner.

There's no limited slip differential and the lack is apparent.

It's not a big deal. It's not as if the E is not going to make it up the road or anything but I think it would have been nice to have power to all 4 corners and to not have to modulate the throttle to avoid wheelspin sometimes.

purduealum91 · August 2003

If you were referring to my post, how is it only $200 saved? He purchased a 2WD EX not a 4WD EX. Thats more than $200 saved right there.

zenzikora · August 2003

well we do have some snow around here, but I haven't had too much trouble in it with FWD, and neither have my parents etc. And I for one certainly don't mind a bit of wheelspin or torque-steer as long as it's controllable. I actually hate traction-control for that reason (at least GM's anyway), because I will do something expecting to squeal a bit pulling etc and compensating for it, then suddenly the power cuts out and I am pissed :-) Don't know if all systems are nasty like that, but it made me look much ruder pulling into traffic.
Anyway I may be buying my E on Monday if I can get my father to go along with me (to co-sign for credit)
Poked my nose around one today at the local dealer but the salesguy I got was like a limp noodle :-o He couldn't even fold the back seats up against the wall. Then he pretty much just sat there, no explanations or sales pitches, then when I asked him if he could get the car I want (diff dealer than the one that has one) he says they don't do dealer trades, but he could get one if I leave a deposit. They are also closed on Labor day.

bowke28 · August 2003

my bad, folks...i was thinking about the EX 4WD manual. i stopped selling hondas in feb., and it wasnt avail. then. sorreee.

Honda Element

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