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Practically there can be up to a fine line between "right/s" reasonable courtesy etc etc. I think it can be a self righteous attitude that can turn something from courtesy and sharing of the public roads to a steadfast refusal to yield ones ground or position or vigilant ism.
So when I am overtaking a LLC'er (who really knows if they are or not, or who even cares) or even just someone who does not seem to either want to move, wants to assert his/her "rights," giving Ray Charles driving lessons, not looking, doesn't care, drunk, beating the wife, kids, husband and or all combinations, doing make up, shaving, giving a credit card transaction etc ( the reasons are as varied as one can imagine). The best is to pass on the the right or "other left" as it is safe.
I always assume that someone who in the left hand lane #1 or so called "passing" lane who does not either signal his intention or move out of my way when I am "legally" and safety behind is probably not going to do so if I am 18 in behind his rear bumper!!
So if he does move out of the way, I ALWAYS make it a point to acknowledge what he has done. The rational is an absolute NO BRAINER. It is so seldom done, that why would you want to discourage one who actually follows the dictum Keep Right Except to Pass to move out of the way????? Then I return him the action. I signal to move to the right and do so when safe. For you know traffic flow is never static for long and he may for a whole host of reasons, wish to go faster. So if he does, he finds me in compliance with "KEEP RIGHT EXCEPT TO PASS" etc.
I also further think it is DANGEROUS advice to encourage actions that create "bunching" (when you do not have to) or even going up along side of another or other car/s at freeway speeds. Part of a key safety problem with DRAG RACING is that cars go side by side for long stretches. This of course cuts off "outs" and leaves precious little room to maneuver in case something goes wrong. This danger does not diminish simply because one thinks he is not DRAG RACING. It diminishes when one realizes the potential for danger when going side by side and takes countermeasures to not go side by side.
Completely disagree. This would be the view of a LLD (left lane dominator) but the world does not revolve around him. What should happen here is that the guy behind should follow at a reasonable distance while the guy ahead is completing his pass. Once the pass is complete, the guy ahead should move back into the right lane so that the guy behind can resume his triple digit speed.
Almost half of the drivers don't even wear seat belts. It really has little impact on others like turn signals do, but it's an indication of how seriously people take traffic safety. I'm sure everyone in TH uses them, but others don't... :rolleyes:
I cannot imagine a valid reason for driving without a seatbelt.
What is a "designated passing lane"? I've never heard of or seen one. AFAIK, all lanes on all roads are designated for driving, period. In addition, one should keep right, except to pass, or except when passing is not possible. If traffic is heavy enough to not permit passing, no lane is "out of bounds".
...I think it can be a self righteous attitude...
I think this occurs in LLVIP'ers as often as LLC'ers.
I also don't believe that "keep right except to pass" applies to the middle lane typically, although in some cases, it might. For a long distance, it makes sense to just stay put in the middle (or one of the middles). And constantly moving in and out of the "slow" lane" is a waste of time and impedes entrance/exit manuevers.
...it is DANGEROUS advice to encourage actions that create "bunching"...
Hmmm....who would encourage bunching? Esp in one's shorts :=)
Part of a key safety problem with DRAG RACING...
I agree, that's inconsiderate, on the highway.
What is a "designated passing lane"? I've never heard of or seen one. AFAIK, all lanes on all roads are designated for driving, period. In addition, one should keep right, except to pass, or except when passing is not possible. If traffic is heavy enough to not permit passing, no lane is "out of bounds".
Hey my friend, this has been defined and redefined and as I have indicated universally ignored. Let me ask it another way, Keep Right Except to Pass, Slower Traffic RIGHT. This be the law! If I had a nickel for every posted sign that says one of these, I think I would be a multi million on this annuity alone.
SOOOOOOOOO... If the number one lane or far left or passing lane does not pop out at you, is there any wonder why there are SOOOOOOOOOOOO many divergent opinions on somethings so basic elementary and simple? Pass on the Right Already!!
Driver: Well, officer, you see, there was this LLC who refused to get out of my way so I went around him. Then another car changed lanes and I had to pass him on the right too.
Cop: How fast were these other cars going?
Driver: They were doing bout 75 in a 70.
Cop: Sign at the bottom and slow down.
Driver: Well, officer, you see, there was this LLC who refused to get out of my way so I went around him. Then another car changed lanes and I had to pass him on the right too.
Cop: How fast were these other cars going?
Driver: They were doing bout 75 in a 70.
Cop: Sign at the bottom and slow down.
Driver: But the LLC was violating the law by using the lane on the interstate that I wanted to use for speeding faster than he was going. Isn't that illegal? Aren't you going to write him a ticket too.
Cop: Lots of laughter and hooting as he calls in the comment to dispatch as he's check your license and car for warrants, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Blocking other vehicles from passing adds unnecessary danger.
Common sense should rule beyond the limitations of law. A more likely scenario in my case would be:
Cop: Why were you speeding and passing on the right? What's your hurry?
Driver: Officer, traffic was bunched up behind a couple cars that were pacing each other and blocking the passing lane and who refused to move over. I considered the close pack of cars to be more dangerous than increasing my speed, so I went around him on the right and moved ahead of the pack.
Cop: How fast were these other cars going?
Driver: They were doing about the speed limit.
Cop: So you were speeding when you passed them?
Driver: Yes, until I got clear of them, then I settled back within 5 mph of the limit. I believe driving in the clear, where I have options to avoid trouble, is much safer than driving next to several other cars.
Cop: I can't condone speeding, but you were driving less than 10 over so I'm going to give you a warning. Slow down and stay safe.
I don't think so...unless I've missed it, it's never bwwn defined here. LLC maybe, not "designated passing lane".
Designated means "set apart for a specific purpose". No lane is set aside for passing anywhere, AFAIK.
Keep Right Except to Pass, Slower Traffic RIGHT. This be the law!
It's hardly universal, although (keeping on topic) it's certainly a good practice and it's inconsiderate to not abide by, within reason.
If I had a nickel for every posted sign that says one of these...
I've driven in over half the states in the US. Most roads have no such sign anywhere.
...If the number one lane or far left or passing lane does not pop out at you...
It does, but only when it gets really hot out :=)
There are many ways to "allow bunches to spread out". Coming up too close to someone doing 65 in a 55 when one wants to go 75 creates "bunching".
Hopefully, this illustrates the fact that "bunching" is not very useful as a concept within this context to indicate "fault".
Blocking other vehicles from passing adds unnecessary danger.
Tailgating when one wishes to go faster also does.
All the rhetoric about bunching, speeding, left lane cruising, are just words to excuse someone's wanting to speed beyond the nominal rate of the flow of traffic.
Tailgating, speeding so that you are passing every car around you, not slowing down to generate your own "free space" by slowing down, all are excuses for inconsiderate driving.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have driven in all but one of the states. So sans Alaska, and I am sure someone from Alaska or has driven through Alaska can verify if such signs exist on their august road system, I think YOU might have ignored the signs or passed them at night. The signs ARE there! So if in Alaska they have instead of the signs I mentioned have signs that say something like "LLCer's welcome"! LLC in Alaska to your hearts content. Then I stand corrected.!
I'm not saying it's a right--I'm saying it's simple courtesy to recognize that you're causing somebody a problem and try to fix it. You can rationalize all you want to find a reason not do it, in that case, you're simply one of many out there causing problems. It's no different from saying 'the speed limit is the speed limit, and that's it, anybody that wants to exceed it can wait.'
It's why we have this thread, everybody can find a reason why what they're doing is right and everybody else can wait.
Personally, I don't think there's any need to engage in that sort of moralizing--all you need to know is you're causing a problem and then try to fix it. To me, it's well within the bounds of normal courtesy to speed up a little to try to complete the pass quicker.
What would make the world a better place would be if everybody would try to be cognizant of how they're interfering with other people and try to minimize that impact, not rationalize doing nothing about it.
Most of the packs of cars I come up on are moving at or below the speed limit. It makes no sense to me that everyone needs to slow down to stay clear of slower vehicles. It seems so simple for slower vehicles to stay right and faster ones go around them to the left. Why is that such a problem for people?
In the last 35 years of driving I have had zero accidents or moving violations. If I choose to drive about 5 over the limit that's my business. Why is everyone worried about my speed? I endanger nobody, especially if you will let me get past the slower packs and onto some open road.
Before all the contrarians jump on me, I'm talking about divided limited access highways with relatively sparse traffic, not heavy traffic and not 2-lanes. I've driven Boston rush hour traffic for over 30 years and I understand that when the road fills up the "keep right" rules become meaningless.
There's a reason faster drivers get in the left lane - to pass slower traffic in the lanes to the right. That's what the left lane's for (yes, it is), if not by law (signs stating "slower traffic keep right"), then it is so by common sense. Treating the left lane as a passing lane whenever slower traffic is in the lanes to the right is the only way to get more cars over the road - safely - in a given period of time - and driving in a manner consistent with that goal simply makes the most sense.
The most common real world situation that arises (and causes the most friction between contributors to this forum) is when a left lane driver is matching the speeds of the cars in the right lanes or exceeding them by approx 0-5-10 mph, and is rapidly approached by a faster driver, doing 5-10+ mph faster than the slower left lane driver ahead. Tailgating is never appropriate here. Three scenarios are most common: there's so much traffic ahead in all lanes that the slower left lane driver has nowhere to go but speed up to the next block of traffic a few hundred feet ahead in the left lane; or the left lane is clear for 1/4 mile or more, but the slower traffic in the right lanes stretches ahead only for a few hundred feet or less; or the the left lane is clear for 1/4 mile or more but slower traffic in the right lanes spans 1/4 mile or more.
In the 1st situation, it is unreasonable for the faster left lane driver to expect the slower left lane driver ahead to speed up and let the faster driver pass. However, in the 2nd and 3rd situations the slower driver in the left lane has the responsibilty, if not common sense obligation to speed up and move over after passing slower traffic on the right to let the faster left lane driver pass, provided that the slower left lane driver does not have to drive "unreasonably fast" to do so.
What "ureasonably fast" is varies from driver to driver, but if the slower left laner is unwilling to accelerate to approx 10-15 mph over the speed limit for a few hundred feet to accommodate the faster left laner (who may be one of dozens of others behind him also wanting to pass at higher speeds), then you shouldn't be driving in the left lane in the first place (common sense). If you're the slower left laner and have to do 10-15 mph over the limit for an extended distance (1/4 mile or more) to overcome the slower right lane traffic before passing to accommodate the faster left laner, that's a tough call - I can't make a judgement here, but the slower left laner is subjecting himself to the potential for road rage by not speeding up, or slowing down to move into the slower traffic on the right.
Now for those of you in the left lane who are driving the speed limit or less, an refuse to move over because "I was there first" or because "I don't feel like it", etc., you just don't get it, and you can't be made to understand or accept the realities of driving in modern times. For those of you slightly exceeding the speed limit and refuse to move over for whater reason, you're effectively setting an artificially lower real world speed limit (you're blocking traffic) than the prevaling left lane traffic "wants" to maintain, and any arguement in favor of such is weak because you're technically speeding in the first place.
I know this is a devisive issue (to move over or not), and few who feel one way will accept the arguement of the other, but that's what forums are for.
Regards,
Deanie
Safer and increased traffic flow is the reason slower drivers should accommodate "heathens". If your opinion is that you shouldn't move over to accommodate faster drivers just because because you don't have to, then you just don't get it.
I always enjoy the dialogue, so I encourage anyone to reply.
Regards,
Deanie
I try to complete a pass in under 30 seconds at a reasonable speed. If someone is bearing down on me at 90 and I'm doing 70 in a 55, they will just have to hit the brakes until I finish and move over.
You mean even if they flash those bright headlights demanding you "clear" their lane and get back over in your lane and slow down to 52 because that's the speed in that right hand lane that you don't rush to get out of their way!!!LOL
Me neither.
If there's a long enough space in the right lane I can continue at my chosen speed without having to slow so I can accomodate a driver going above the 85th percentile speed, I do so.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I for one would not disagree. If you were in front of me and did that you would rate a wave!
Bingo! I think we're all pretty much arguing on the same side of the issue here, lol.
One point that should be repeated is that pretty much everyone involved in these situations is driving above the limit, if only by a couple mph. I travel long distancers a lot in the East, mostly at 4-8 mph over the limit. When traffic is fairly open, the only cars out there driving the speed limit are caught up in packs. I would guess that away from urban centers fewer than 10% of drivers would drive literally at or below the limit if given an open road. We're pretty much all speeding guys - the problems are caused by drivers more concerned with one-upsmanship than safely going from here to there.
If you're in the left lane doing 75 and somebody comes up behind you doing 90, all I expect from you is: 1) recognition of the fact that you're causing a problem, and 2) consideration of whether there's anything you can do to eliminate or minimize it.
If 75, for your age, the conditions, your driving skill, your car, your tires, etc, is absolutely the fastest you can go, and if there's no gap to the right you can pop into for 5 seconds to let him by, then by all means I have no problem with you maintaining 75.
But I think your mindset should be 'Gee, I'm sorry but I've looked at all the options and there's nothing I can do,' not 'To heck with you, 75 is The Chosen Speed By Me and you'll just have to live with it.' If the 'I'm sorry' part is missing from your reaction then somewhere enough courtesy and consideration is probably missing from your attitude. And if you consistently find yourself being the guy thinking 'I'm sorry but...' instead of 'why doesn't that guy up there do something...' then that ought to be a clue.
And yes, as courtesy I think you should pop to the right if you can, even if it delays you 10 seconds, if you can let Mr 90 get by and save him a minute. And yes, if everybody in the world thought that way it'd be a much nicer place to live because we'd all receive so much more than we give.
Do I advocate riding your bumper, honking, etc? No, that's another discourtesy, but it has nothing to do with your own decision matrix in the left lane.
And unfortunately, in America there are so many pinheaded oblivious drivers in the left lane that I think you can make a case for riding a bumper or honking or blinking--if nothing else, oblivious, inconsiderate fools should at least be made aware they're oblivious inconsiderate fools. (Ok, personally I can never honk or blink because that's just too pushy, but I absolutely will bear down on the guy in front of me so that he at least has a chance to know he's in the way and make a decision, and I'll ride the bumper for a second or two within reason to make sure he knows and see what he does about it. Then I just have to live with the result and I'll back off.)
The problem is, I don't know how you know whether the person in front of you is an oblivious inconsiderate fool or someone honestly doing the best they can do. As an entering argument, however, common sense tells me that if someone is in the left lane and overtaking by less than 10 mph my assumption--and yes, it's an assumption--inclines strongly toward the former. In the end there's nothing I can do (since I won't honk or blink) with it except live with it and label the guy a probable me-first jerk.
Do you think the person going 90 on Interstate 70 in Ohio which is 2-lane is causing a problem? Doesn't sound like you do.
> I can never honk or blink because that's just too pushy, but I absolutely will bear down on the guy in front of me so that he at least has a chance to know he's in the way and make a decision, and I'll ride the bumper for a second or two
That's the problem attitude from many high-rate speeders. The ones who get my attention are those who move up and stay back until I can complete my pass and find a reasonable gap in the right lane into which I can move. I actually call it the Michigan driver technique; the ones travelling through Ohio and Kentucky on I-75 are very good drivers in 90% of the cases.
>there are so many pinheaded oblivious drivers in the left lane
If a driver finds himself thinking that often,... then that ought to be a clue.
>label the guy a probable me-first jerk.
That is a good label for the guy doing 90 in our area. Your results may vary.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'm not talking about Interstate 70 in Ohio, I'm talking about in general. 90 is just somebody's hypothetical number for speeders, but in my case I've spent 11 years cruising at 90 in Germany, so no, I don't necessarily think it's a problem at all, depending on conditions.
As I said right off the bat, I don't expect anybody to drive unsafely, all I expect them to do is be aware and do what they can do safely. Any scenario you make up is just a scenario you make up, I can't say anything to that. I can't judge what you do in any given situation, only you can do that, but I can describe the sort of approach toward those decisions that I think everybody should take.
>there are so many pinheaded oblivious drivers in the left lane
Well, we have a whole thread devoted to it so I'm going to say it's not just me.
"That is a good label for the guy doing 90 in our area. Your results may vary."
Maybe so, but I'm proposing a general mindset I think should apply, not a procedure for your particular area under any particular set of conditions.
You should be aware of your surroundings; you should identify somebody coming up behind you early; when you do, if you can get over you should get over, if you can speed up you should speed up, and if you can't, you can't, and you've done all you can do.
It's that simple. How that applies to you at time W on road X with traffic Y and weather conditions Z is your call.
I have to admit that when I did this there was a slight bit of trepredation, but after a while you get used to it. It is almost like driving in a cocoon!!! I figured that in a measured span, I was in the MINUS (-100) percentile! Yes that is right! Out of 100 cars, 1,000 passed me!!! Along this leg, 6 highway patrol (ON THE PROWL, no less) passed me, didn't even seem to care!!!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
- EVERYBODY passed me - every single car! Driving was greatly simplified because all I had to watch for was maroons from behind. It was indeed like driving in a cacoon.
- Being passed by everybody meant not having to pass anybody, a huge reduction in the danger level because lane changes were nearly eliminated (only had to move over to allow people to enter/exit.)
- The reduction of exposure to danger resulted in a huge reduction in the stress level. I actually got home in a good mood - my wife noticed the difference, lol.
- My commute, which included 22 miles on the interstate, was lengthened by less than 3 minutes. Big deal.
That was when I began driving pretty much everywhere at less than 5 over. No suggestion here that everyone should do anything, just my thing. I accept responsibility for getting out of the way of faster traffic as soon as I reasonably can, and I expect (the few) slower drivers to do the same for me.
That's the problem, this is not Germany and we don't have Autobahns' here and we have a different interstate system.
For those who think I may have some dogma in my attitude I do. I do not camp in the left lane, but when I pass, I make every effort to complete the pass in about 30 seconds or less. Those who risk life and limb by going far and away above the speed limit, can slow down when they hit my bumper. I'll move over as quickly as I can.
That is my dogma. :shades:
1. Luxo cars seem to drive most aggressively (BMW leads the pack, Mercedes and Infinity right behind), though the occasional "tuned" Accord tries to imitate this,
2. Long lines of cars turning illegal LEFT turn against a RED light (there will often be 3 - 5 cars in a row doing this),
3. The "drag race" syndrome, where on major freeways with truck convoys and slow moving traffic,drivers will hop into truck lanes, drag race from one truck to the next, then cut back over into left lane traffic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"You should be aware of your surroundings; you should identify somebody coming up behind you early; when you do, if you can get over you should get over, if you can speed up you should speed up, and if you can't do those safely, you can't, and you've done all you can do."
You're part of the solution, if you're not, you're part of the problem. It really is that simple.
That's absolutely correct. And it also takes 2 to tango.
People who think the road is theirs by defiant acts of aggression and speeding are just as much part of the problem as people who docily LLC in the left lane .05 mph above the flow of traffic.
After six and half years over there courtesy of uncle sugar, it was a big culture shock to come back to Chaos, Inc on US roadways.
I agree with that, too.
Europeans are just so much better trained, and they follow the rules. It's almost inconceivable that someone would pass on the right over there. First, there'd never be a situation where someone's in the left lane with nobody in the right, and secondly, they just wouldn't do it, even if they could.
In fact, while I was over there they had to pass a law that it was ok to pass on the right if traffic was so congested that it was just two parallel streams of traffic, otherwise everybody on the autobahn would have been stuck at the speed of the slowest person on the road!
There was one woman in a big black Denali weaving and trying to get through traffic, as I sat in the left lane and just plugged along with the flow. She'd get ahead, then get behind me, then be alongside. Once when she was right next to me, I looked at her until she noticed, then simply shook my head. Strangely enough, this somehow turned her brain back on, and she stayed in her lane at a constant speed for the rest of the time I saw her.
I also saw an abnormal amount of cars abruptly changing speed, weaving, etc....and in just about every case, the driver (one gender way more than the other, too...) was on the phone.
I usually don't read your posts (as I indicated long ago) but I happened to read this one from the bottom of the page. I have to point out the humor in your admission to left lane usage and just staying there along with the flow. Helps make the point that everyone does it sometimes. ( I realize that wasn't your point.) :grin
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually your message helps make my point about using both lanes for traffic with the left lane of two-lane interstates moving at above the speed limit slightly or better to increase traffic flow rate rather than having people doing 61 moving in and out of the right hand lane and slowing down then speeding up when a left laner isn't using the left lane.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Every time see these split speed limits it's a problem. Trucks are quite stable driving at 65, and traffic moves better when it all is going about the same speed.
I did break my pace a couple times to let a left lane bandit fly past...but it didn't get more than an eyeroll for me. It was a nice day and a decent enough drive. I've had plenty of people move over for me, it's no skin off my back to do it when I safely can. I can't recall the last time I created rage (that I saw anyway - I don't tailgate much, but if some bozo has a line of cars behind him and he won't move over when he easily can, I will flash my lights) in another driver, so I must be doing something right. My road rage is much more confined to city driving. In urban areas my car becomes invisible, or has a sign on it that everyone but me can see that says 'pull right out in front of me, I don't mind slowing to let your mindless butt in'
How hard could it be? I often see temporary signs erected announcing 'coffee being served next exit' on holidays. Why not accident warnings?
I have been in states with heavy truck traffic at 65 to 70 limits. The trucks go 75-80. Kentucky, Tennessee are examples. I was in a 2-lane section of I-65 with trucks filling up the left lane at 75 mph and tailgating me like I was a left lane cruiser. There was a semi ahead of me and another ahead of him. The right lane was going 67. No where to go with hundreds of tons of idiot truck drivers tailgating me and each other. I called about the FedEx ground semi (double trailer) that was tailgating me. They seemed disinterested. So I have used other carriers when I shipped materials related to business.
Just had a local TV station do a report about split speed limits and they showed a letter they got from a couple that was all in favor of one limit for all. It was much less stressful for them to drive. They both are truck drivers!!! What else would they say.
We've had semis ram other semis with a pickup truck in between. That occured about 4 miles from my home. We have many that run off the road especially late at night. But the fact that I-70 with its heavy truck load runs right through Columbus helps with the speed problem from the semis.
About 2 out of 3 are courteous drivers when we talk semis. I ramp on to I-70 where the highway is downhill and the ramp comes uphill from below. It's hard to look behind due to the slope difference until you're where the ramp lane contacts the main interstate. Many trucks are already out of the right lane to let you over even though I don't need it; I just kick that 3800 pushrod engine and merge right in with traffic. But seriously it's about 1/3 of the truck drivers that are dangerous and aggressive.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Really doesn't seem to be a problem. Now I've seen a few moronic semi drivers in my life, but when I stop and think about how many clueless car drivers I see on any given day.........
In your instance, of course you are not obligated to complete a passing manouver at highly illegal speeds, but such instances were addressed in my post. Do I take this to mean you agree with the other points I was trying to make?
Regards,
Deanie