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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans
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Anyway, you say that all of these publications can't be wrong with saying the Odyssey is the best van. I dont know, maybe your right. But I do know that 22k people last month thought the Dodge Caravan was a better mininvan for them than did the mere 10k or so that chose to buy an Odyssey. It only goes to show you that what the reviewers such as Car and Driver and so forth think as the best vehicle in any given class might be looked upon differently by the consumers who actually go out and spend money on what they like the best. And as far as minivans go, the Odyssey is clearly not the most popular choice, despite the rave reviews its recieved in its relatively short history.
BTW, my neighbor just bought a 2002 Town & Country eL in Inferno Red paint. Hmmmmm, I wonder why in earth anyone would choose a CHRYSLER minivan over a Honda? I could go down the list but I dont have time right now...
I don't think you've "cought" me just yet, dmathews3...
-Adam
Anyway, you say that all of these publications can't be wrong with saying the Odyssey is the best van. I dont know, maybe your right. But I do know that 22k people last month thought the Dodge Caravan was a better mininvan for them than did the mere 10k or so that chose to buy an Odyssey. It only goes to show you that what the reviewers such as Car and Driver and so forth think as the best vehicle in any given class might be looked upon in the same light by the consumers who actually go out and spend money on what they like the best.
And as far as minivans go, the Odyssey is clearly not the most popular choice, despite the rave reviews its recieved in its relatively short history. BTW, my neighbor just bought a 2002 Town & Country eL in Inferno Red paint. Hmmmmm, I wonder why in earth anyone would choose a CHRYSLER minivan over a Honda? I could go down the list but I dont have time right now...
I don't think you've cought me just yet, dmathews3...
-Adam
Anyway, you say that all of these publications can't be wrong with saying the Odyssey is the best van. I dont know, maybe your right. But I do know that 22k people last month thought the Dodge Caravan was a better mininvan for them than did the mere 10k or so that chose to buy an Odyssey. It only goes to show you that what the reviewers such as Car and Driver and so forth think as the best vehicle in any given class might not be looked upon in the same light by the consumers who actually go out and spend money on what they like the best.
And as far as minivans go, the Odyssey is clearly not the most popular choice, despite the rave reviews its recieved in its relatively short history. BTW, my neighbor just bought a 2002 Town & Country eL in Inferno Red paint. Hmmmmm, I wonder why on earth anyone would choose a CHRYSLER minivan over a Honda? I could go down the list but I dont have time right now...
I don't think you've cought me just yet, dmathews3...
-Adam
Anyway, you say that all of these publications can't be wrong with saying the Odyssey is the best van. I dont know, maybe your right. But I do know that 22k people last month thought the Dodge Caravan was a better mininvan for them than did the mere 10k or so that chose to buy an Odyssey. It only goes to show you that what the reviewers such as Car and Driver and so forth think as the best vehicle in any given class might not be looked upon in the same light by the consumers who actually go out and spend money on what they like the best.
And as far as minivans go, the Odyssey is clearly not the most popular choice, despite the rave reviews its recieved in its relatively short history. BTW, my neighbor just bought a 2002 Town & Country eL in Inferno Red paint. Hmmmmm, I wonder why on earth anyone would choose a CHRYSLER minivan over a Honda? I could go down the list but I dont have time right now...
I don't think you've cought me just yet, dmathews3...
-Adam
Only reason I can think of is that DC mechanics are very nice guys and DC owners don't get to meet very many people so buying a DC van they know that they will meet all kinds of people when they keep going back to their dealers.
#1622 of 1643 99 Ody Lx -Slipping transmission by chunkasmom Feb 09, 2002 (06:39 pm)
I got my van used from a dealer in Nov of '01. Come December the transmission started slipping on cold mornings. It really has to warm up a good 7 minutes before it stops. Has anyone had this problem? I also jave the sticking doors problem and the noisy brakes. I gotta say, I thought this was supposed to be the best van out there. So far, I'm not that happy.
Can you gues, dmathews3?
This will be our second van. Our first was a 93 DGC LE that we bought new and has 160k miles. We love our 93. It is now leaking transmission fluid from the seals that have presumably dried out after 9 years. We had indended to repair the leaks. Replacing the seals would run about $350. However the concensus of the repair shops is that I should not waste my money replacing the seals because my tranny is the original and could very well fail soon after the seals are replaced. They recomend a complete overhaul to the tune of $1200. (Dealer estimates are $2000.) The 3 shops I asked for estimates were shocked that I still had the original tranny. Our van has trucked our 3 children and many others in a mix of mostly around town miles and some highway. My wife is the primary driver and she tends to speed up quickly. I know many people who own DGCs and several have had their trannys replaced or rebuilt. Every one of them did not have their trannys serviced (i.e. fluid changed). We have changed the fluid every 30k miles. I believe this was the key to making it last so long. But I digress. Sorry.
We were planning on buying a new van in the near future and the mechanics advised us not bother repairing our 93 DGC. Sooo, we looked at the Ody and DGC. Our first observation was that the DGC has drastically improved their product from an ergonomics point of view as well as the ride. It is quite smooth and amazingly quiet. Both the Ody and the DGC are comfortable and handle well. The Ody folding rear seat into the floor does not impress me. You have to remove the headrests(3) in order to fold the seat. There is no place to store the headrests. Minor yes, but they could have designed a pocket into the wall for them. The DGC rear seat is a split. Although it does not fold into the floor you can remove just one half instead of both. Also each half has independant reclining seat backs. The Ody power doors are way to heavy to operate manually.
The most striking observation is the lack of styling in the Ody. It is very bland. In particular the exterior and the dashboard. Also the seats are more comfortable in the DGC.
I must admit that we seem to like th DGC more. You could say that we are partial due to our 9 years in our 93 DGC. The 2002 DGC is almost entirely different than our 93. But there are feature that make the DGC give us a more "familiar" feel than the Ody. The Ody was on our consideration list because of Honda's reputution for quality. Although we might have a few more problems with the DGC than the Ody, both vehicles are very well built.
The final, and not insignificant, factor was price. We have studied the Ody and DGC for a couple of months. Until recently comperably equiped DGC was more than and Ody by $2000-3000. Not anymore. DGC now has a $3000. rebate and 7/100k powertrain warrany.
For us the DGC is the winner.
I can understand where The Money Magazine (Is that "Money" magazine or a different periodical?) is coming from. That's why in late '98 I leased a '99 Grand Caravan. The new Odysseys were first hitting dealers and were hard to get and had pretty big premiums over list.
Three years, 40,000 miles and eight major problems later, I was very happy to turn it in. Market prices on my '99 are around $12,000. '99 Odyssey LX around $18,000. So what's really the better value? D-C has sold millions of minivans, so millions of people can't be wrong, right? People buy a lot of cigarettes, too.
Maybe these two can just trade vans.
#1628 of 1643 Transmission and brake problems by dj5 Feb 11, 2002 (12:50 pm)
My wife bought a 2001 SS EX Odyssey in January 2001. She now has 19,000 miles. Last week she had to replace the front brake pads. Understand that the Odyssey goes through brake pads so was not too concerned. Now yesterday it started to hesitate, the wife took it into the dealership and they said that they need to replace the transmission (under warranty). They said it would take two days but they would give her a loaner. If problems continue, I will trade for a 2004 when they change body styles.
Looks like "the jury is still out" on Honda Odyssey build quality. Even die-hard Honda fans would not be honest with themselves if they said the Odyssey quality and reliability has lived up to the Honda name. After all, this isn't a first model year 1999 vehicle but a much newer 2001 with ONLY 19k miles.
#1. Clever 2nd row seating that can be either a bench or captain's chairs that has the ability to slide forward or rearward.
#2. The "Magic Seat" with the ease of additional space.
#3. The LARGE space behind 3rd row seat that is double that of any minivan except Astro/Safari.
#4. A large, powerful engine in EVERY minivan. The DC 3.8L is in my opinion equal to the very nice Ody 3.5L since it has MORE Torque at lower RPM than Ody 3.5L although the Ody has 25 MORE HP than DC 3.8L.
#1. Separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.
#2. Heating coils at base of windshield to melt ice and snow.
#3. Complete overhead console with outside temperature/compass/trip computer.
#4. Available built in child safety seat.
On a magic seat in the DC vans it's my opinion that they can't do it cheaply as long as they build them to have AWD.
Options that DC should copy...
1) Ditto
2) DC would lose the ability to build AWD vans, MANY folks around here (Northern NJ) feel the need for AWD
3) Maybe, our GC has been more than adequate
4) At least offer the 3.8 as an option on the lesser vans, by the way, the extra HP of the Honda engine is sort of irrelevant, it is the torque that really matters.
Options that Honda should copy
1) Ditto
2) Ditto
3) Kind of nice, but not REALLY necessary
4) Ditto
Best Regards,
Shipo
All that they took would NOT fit behind our 3rd seat and still take 6 adults in the van. (My wife rode out and back with me).
Since the DC 3.8L V6 with 215 HP / 245 Ft Lbs Torque gets the same gas mileage as lesser 3.3L V6 that has 180 HP / 210 Ft Lbs Torque, I would opt for the 3.8L if it were on the lower priced DC minivans...even as a $350 option. The DC 3.8L is more comparable to the Ody 3.5L than is the DC 3.3L engine.
The eX is the lowest priced GC or T&C with the 3.8L (MSRP of $26,725)but it also has power sliding passenger door, power liftgate, removeable powered center console that we do NOT want....just as we do NOT want power sliding doors on Odyssey EX and would prefer Odyssey LX.
As for the other options, we are currently looking for a new van, and I am a little frustrated by the fact that in order to get leather seats, I MUST buy one of the vans with those silly automatic doors which come standard on the T&C LXi, T&C Limited and the GC ES. The console on the other hand, I kind of like, so that is cool.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Of course cassitc would be more impressed with the Odyssey after having a Windstar that soured him on any American brand since the Windstar had very little cargo space, 3rd row difficult to access, etc.
DC sold 36,305 minivans in January 2002. Honda sold 10,796 while Ford only sold 10,405 Windstars.
I imagine you will be glad to get rid of your Found On Road Dead Windstar. Good luck. Either the Odyssey or any DC minivan would be far superior to the Ford Windstar.
It's good that, despite the problems you've had with your current vehicle, you are still a loyal Dodge customer. Just be sure when you are comparing vehicles that you are truly comparing vehicles. For example, a cargo net, steering wheel audio controls, CD player, traction control system, side airbags, and remote anti-theft device are all standard on the Odyssey. You have to pay extra for these on the DGC ES. I'm also surprised that on most other minivans, the heater for the leather seats is extra. This is included in the Odyssey. Sometimes, what seems like a good deal really isn't.
Oh, common. Do you really want me to go through the list of comfot and convienience features that Chrysler vans have and the boaring, bland Odyssey does not? I guess so.
Tri zone climate control, power center console, auto dimming interior and exterior mirrors, heated windshield and mirrors, trip computer, power liftgate and doors with obstacle detection system, Infinity sound system, dual power/heated seats w/memory, adjustable pedals, real leather interior, tire pressure monitor, 50/50 rear bench seating, gorchery bag hooks, auto locking doors, fog lamps, and an attractive exterior.
Now tell me that the only reason why people buy Chrysler over Honda is because they are more readily available. All of those features combined with excellent prices and availability make DC minivans a very attractive choice. Just sitting in a 2001 Town & Country Limited w/suede interior and in dash CD changer really made me think how it is in a class of it's own among minivans. No other van out there, including the Honda, offers the same ammount of refinement and luxuries the Town & Country does. As Chrysler says, they've created a segment within a segment. Thus, there will always be a market out there the Town & Country will dominate in that the boaring, boxy, bland Odyssey will never be able to touch.
BTW, if people really want an Odyssey and it really is as good as people say it is, than they wouldnt mind waiting on a list of buyers to get one. I know I wouldn't hesitate to wait on a list for a new 2002 Town & Country...
."I currently own a 95 Windstar and we've been pretty happy with it overall."
Carleton1 responded:
"Of course cassitc would be more impressed with the Odyssey after having a Windstar that soured him on any American brand..."
Carleton1, did you even read his comments?
In any case, maybe Cassitc is impressed with Odyssey since it maintains the standards of minivan safety started by Ford with the Windstar in 1995 (5-star NHTSA results and a "Good" IIHS Offset result even in back then). Seven model years later, and GM and Chrysler still haven't matched Ford in minivan crashworthiness. It only took Toyota until 1998 and Honda until 1999 to do it...
Luxury trinkets or safety, everyone has their own priorities. But feel free to slam his Windstar if it makes you feel better.
When my wife and I were shopping for vans, we looked long and hard at all the makes. We ended up with the Honda because of nearly every review stating that it was the best, positive feedback from other owners, and a better price.
We had to wait quite some time for the van and it was VERY tempting to buy another van sitting on the lot of other dealers.
Believe it or not, the EX model we got was a better value, at full MSRP, than a discounted Grand Caravan. To get the options we wanted (pretty loaded Honda EX vs GC ES), the Caravan was around 33K. Take a 3K discount and you are still higher than the Odd at 27K. Throw in $600 for the extra powertrain warrenty from DC and $2K for interest savings from 0% and they prices are almost the same. Now look at resale value and there is no contest.
Mark
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
Basicly, people don't buy what they dont want or wont be satisfied with. And as I've said before, if it ment waiting three months to get a new 2002 Town & Country, I would gladly and patiently put my name on the list, despite the long deliverly time. If the Odyssey is such a spectacular vehicle, than why not wait for it?
BTW, I KNOW for a fact that those near 30k minivan buyers did not settle for a lowly DC minivan just beacuse they couldnt find a flawless Honda Odyssey in time for their purchase. Saying so would be rediculous, although I wouldn't put it past many DC bashers here at TROLL hall...
Mark
I listed these in an earlier post, but perhaps you missed them. These are items that are standard on the Odyssey EX that are not standard on the GC eX:
side air bags ($360)
steering wheel audio controls ($70)
dual power doors (~$350)
cargo net
rear 3 pt belt and 3 3rd row headrests
remote anti-theft
engine immobilizer
5 speed auto
more horsepower
more room
better crash tests
As for you, Adam:
First, learn to use your spell checker. Your spelling is atrocious. Second, please check your facts before repeating them on board after board. The Odyssey HAS obstacle detection for the doors and real leather. And the heaters for the leather seats are included in the price, not extra, as in most other minivans. The Odyssey also HAS grocery bag hooks. This is not as big of a deal in an Odyssey as in other minivans, however, because of the deep well necessary for the magic seat. This is to say, our groceries do not roll all over the van if they spill out of the bags, because they are contained in the well.
Where I live, there are no incentives on the GC eX, so the difference in price, with options on the GC, is less than $500. That is a price I will gladly pay for more horsepower, more room, and a safer ride.
1. $400 LOWER MSRP.(Same if GC eX has optional driver side power sliding door).
2. Separately controlled Temperature for Driver and Front Passenger (found on most luxury sedans).
3. Compass/Outside Temperature.
4. Trip Computer.
5. Heating coils at base of windshield.
6. Power Liftgate.
7. MORE Torque.
8. Infinity 10 speaker sound system (Ody has 6)
9. CD AND Cassette player.(Ody CD only)
10.Powered, Removeable Center Console.
11.Automatic Locking Power Door Locks.
12. MORE maximum cargo space (167.9 cu ft GC vs 146.1 cu ft Ody)
13. Padded armrests on front doors.
14. Headlamp OFF delay.
With a GC eX a person can also have a FULL size spare tire. The GC eX also has grocery bag hooks. The reason you will not find a discount on the GC eX is because the difference in Invoice and MSRP is $1682 on the GC eX whereas the Honda dealer has $1000 LARGER profit margin with $2682 difference between Invoice and MSRP.(IF Edmund's Pricing guide is accurate).
I have driven Odyssey and DC minivans many times and feel they are a virtual tie for quality, ride, comfort, performance, etc. The choice between the two really gets down to which features are most important to the individual buyer.
The poster said they were pleased with their Windstar, then you responed that he was soured on American products and trolled even further by calling it a "Found on Road Dead Windstar". Troll you say? Pot. Kettle. Black.
"And I also compared the Injury Claim Data sent to me by USAA that showed Chrysler minivans had a LOWER injury rate claim than did the 5 Star rated Windstar.
Real world data is more significant and reliable than how well a company can design vehicles to perform in a crash test. Chrysler minivans are designed to drive well and AVOID crashes whereas it appears the Windstar was designed to do well in the crash test...but does not do as well when driven in the real world."
Yeah, you bring this up from time to time. Yet, you never answer the questions people ask when you do. Let's try again:
1) How do you separate driver profile from the element of crashworthiness in this data?
2) If you look at the data, you will notice significant differences between identical twin vehicles like Villager/Quest or T&C/Grand Caravan. If this data is a good measure of the real world, why are twin vehicles different at all?
3) Insurance companies base rates on claims data. If someone gets a discount with company A, then switches to Company B which does not have a discount based on their claims history, does their car instantly become less safe?
Claims data is not a directly useful resource for crashworthiness comparisons. It varies based on driver profile, and from company to company. If a vehicle has a much higher than average injury or death rate, then that might raise a red flag. As it turns out, most minivans have rates lower than the average vehicle. Only Aerostar has a higher than average death rate, and no minivan had a worse than average injury rate. Ironically, the Caravan/Grand Caravan and Voyager/Grand Voyager were among the few minivans that were not substantially better than average for injury losses. Finally, the data does not reflect the most recent model years 2000, 2001 and 2002 especially where vehicles have been redesigned. See also:
http://www.iihs.org/sr_ddr/sr3507_t2.htm#vl
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_wagon.htm
Every minivan has advantages and disadvantages, and not everyone has safety as a top priority in a vehicle choice. You're free to dismiss safety evaluations that don't support your vehicle choice, but don't presume the rest of us will use your distorted logic as well. Crash tests and rollover ratings are directly comparable vehicle to vehicle, and have no element of driver profile or claims variances.
Personally, when I see anything below a 4-star NHTSA crash/rollover rating or worse than an "Acceptable" IIHS rating, I have serious questions as to whether the manufacturer made a safe design for angles and momentums that may differ from the crash tests. The paramaters of these crash tests are long established and well known to manufacturers. If they can't design to do well in standardized tests used widely by the media and consumers, why should I trust them to design for other scenarios?
Obviously, your mileage may vary. Sienna, Odyssey and Windstar do well in all these comparisons, even the death and injury data I linked above.
The much larger, boxy VW Vanagon gets even better fuel economy than the small, lesser Sedona.
BTW, can you get an optional DVD or navigation system on the GC eX? I don't think they were available last year when I was looking. I got the DVD on the Odyssey EX, and it's great.
The NHTSA also compiles data about Insurance costs, based only on the IIHS/HLDI data for damage susceptability. The results are normalized to an overall average of 100 for all vehicles. For the minivan/wagon category, 69 is average. Odyssey, Windstar and Sienna are all better than the category and overall average. The Chrysler vans are also below the overall average, but not the category average.
This doesn't necessarily contradict Carleton1's information from the USAA. The USAA obviously has different claims experience than all the companies tabulated by the HLDI and NHTSA.
Finally, the NHTSA says this about using insurance premiums for safety comparisons:
"In setting insurance premiums, insurance companies mainly rely on factors that are not directly related to the vehicle itself (except for its value). Rather, they mainly consider driver characteristics (such as age, gender, marital status, and driving record), the geographic area in which the vehicle is driven, how many miles are traveled, and how the vehicle is used. Therefore, to obtain complete information about insurance premiums, you should contact insurance companies or their agents directly.
Insurance companies do not generally adjust their premiums on the basis of data reflecting the crashworthiness of different vehicles. However, some companies adjust their premiums for personal injury protection and medical payments coverage if the insured vehicle has features that are likely to improve its crashworthiness, such as air bags."
Just another thing to consider if you believe insurance premiums or injury/death/collision rates are a good indicator of crashworthiness on their own.
Does the Kia Sedona have THE poorest EPA rating at 15/20 while the larger, more boxy VW Eurovan is rated at 17/20?
Is the Odyssey rated at 18/25?
Does the T&C 3.8L have an 18/24 rating as shown on page 14 of Model 2002 Fuel Economy Guide?
Does the Odyssey have the MOST HP at 240?
What minivan has more torque than the 245 Ft Lbs of DC 3.8L?
Is it a fact that the Odyssey and GC/T&C have more space inside than a Sedona?
Does the Sedona have a control for the driver to open or close side rear quarter windows?
Can the driver control the temperature of the rear heater in the Sedona?
"rear 3 pt belt and 3 3rd row headrests"
Good point. Without a center rear headrest and 3-point seatbelt, that seating position is only useful for a carseat. Adults and chidren in belt-positioning boosters require lap/shoulder belts and adequate head restraints. Many vehicles have had lap/shoulder belts in the center rear for years; it always surprises me when a brand new design lacks them.
The auto show was encouraging. Many new designs, even from non-luxury makes, had rear center lap/shoulder belts. Some still lacked adequate head support for adults.
Built-in child seats are a nice convenience, but have some serious shortcomings as a primary child restraint. I wouldn't mind having a built-in carseat for an emergency, but I have no doubt that my aftermarket seats are as good or better for a variety of reasons. See:
http://www.car-safety.org/carguide.html
Some built-in child seats aren't all they're cracked up to be:
http://www.gomemphis.com/mca/local_news/article/0,1426,MCA_437_984090,00.html
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Share your vehicle reviews
Many people may want a 4WD minvan. That eliminates the Odyssey.
I just took a 1200 mile trip in my 99 Odyssey. I got 22.6 MPG averaging over 70 MPH.
One way was 565 miles. I made it there in 7 1/2 hours. I made it back in 8 hours. (traffic was worse).
I have over 54 K miles on my Odyssey. It still runs like new. I haven't had one problem.
Roll down windows in the middle.
More interior color choices.
Volume control on the left hand side of the steering wheel.
Show both trip and total mileage on the inst. panel.
Not a custom headunit.
Cheaper DVD unit.
Pockets in the lift gates/cargo area
Lastly, the instrument panel does have the ability to show both trip and total mileage like the Odyssey, but not at the same time. If you desire this, use the dash odometer for the total miles and the trip computer for the trip mileage, among other things such as instant and average MPG, temperature, elapsed time, and direction.
-Adam