Mercedes-Benz SL and SLK (all models)

lovemyclk · July 2002

The Crossfire will share platform components with the SLK... NOT the SL. It is better to stay silent and remain a fool than to post idiocy and remove all doubt.

As a point of reference, some of the world's greatest automotive testers and journalists have given exemplary marks to the new SL and its driving experience. Not bad for a 1st-year introduction. I suggest that people drive and experience this car prior to posting uninformed opinions.

The SL design target was not the 996 (world-class sports car) on one end of the spectrum or the SC430 (pure luxo-coupe)on the other. It sets the bar uniquely for its intended buyers. Funny, MB seems to sell every one they build... often at an unfortunate premium over MSRP.

BTW, as an enclosed coupe, the Crossfire has little in common with the SLK Cabrio... other than sharing the 3.2L engine.

linard · July 2002

It's hard not to respond to those who have no understanding of what they are trying to argue. Anyhow, from what I've seen, the new SLK seems to take a lot of cues from the SLR. Has anyone seen the article in Automobile Magazine on the SLK and Crossfire? The comparison was interesting and showed that much of the interior is based off the SLK. Which is not a bad thing as the SLK is built like a tank. And if any of you get it in your area, CAR magazine wrote a great comparo on the new CLK, 330, and Volvo C70...

shoes · August 2002

Ready for this? I solf my SL500 to my dealer for a profit and got a Mini Cooper S instead! Not quite the same ride but sure is fun.

kdude · August 2002

Do dealers pay enough over the sticker to offset the tax and registration charges the original owner has to pay?

At original MSRP of appx. $100k, they will have to pay over $8k to the break-even for the first owner. How did this work for you?

ejerod · August 2002

I just picked up my 2003 SL500 with AMG sport package, Keykess Go, Parktronic, Distronic, Active ventilated seats, you name it.. it's on this car.. including the kitchen sink. I love this vehicle!!!! I also own a 2002 S500 with AMG sport and all the toys. My wife made me promise that this was it for a while. Have fun,I'm headed to my garage with my blanket a flashlight and a box of graham crackers!!!!

free707 · August 2002

I have one scheduled to build 10/1, so delivery is early November. Like Shoes, I am considering selling it quickly for a profit. Ideally, I would like to drive it for a week, then return it. Any ideas on the value: 1) if immediately turned back in, 2) if driven a short time ?

benznut · August 2002

Has anyone read this month's MoTor Trend yet? I was in for a big surprise when I read the article, especially the numbers. SL55 beat even the ferrari 360 Spider in any numbers' category. That is something!

habitat1 · August 2002

I just saw the issue in my doctor's office and if I'm not mistaken, the Ferrari beat the SL55 in the "handling" categories - i.e. slalom and braking. I would have preferred them to test against the 360 Spider 6-speed manual, but I suspect the SL with 470+/- hp and 510+/- would still have posted better acceleration numbers.

The real question anyone with that kind of money needs to ask themselves is whether they want a nimble razerlike Ferrari or a musclecar Mercedes 2 seat roadster that weighs more than our Isuzu Trooper. I know which one I would take. I suspect the Mercedes would be more fun to drive at the Bonneville Salt Flats, but the Ferrari on any other road conditions.

mgreene1 · August 2002

As a practical matter, supercars like the SL55 would be *boring* from a driver's perspective. Driving them anywhere close to the street legal limits would be a big yawn. Shoes has the right idea. Get something *fun* that you can actually *drive* in the real world, like the Mini S. I'm not envious about his SL500 but I am that he was able to get his Mini S so quickly. Mine won't arrive for another month and a half

merc1 · August 2002

The fact that Mercedes is even compared to a Ferrari is great for Mercedes and supercar fans alike. I don't understand why the SL keeps getting knocked for it's weight. In order to build a car of the SL's caliber you're going to have to accept some extra pounds. Not all Ferrari models are light weight either. The SL55 is the modern day equivalent of the 540 SS/SSK models of long ago. Big, powerful, heavy, brutally fast "touring" cars. Exactly what a Mercedes should be.

M

sphinx99 · August 2002

"I don't understand why the SL keeps getting knocked for it's weight."

I think it's because not everyone considers big, powerful, heavy brutally fast touring cars to be the epitome of the automotive experience.

merc1 · August 2002

Thats fine I have no problem with what a person considers an ideal automotive experience, but to keep harping about a car being overweight is ridiculous, escpecially when said car ISN'T compared to it's direct rivals. The SL500 weighs less than 100 lbs more than the XK8, yet nobody complains about the Jaguar's weight. Considering Mercedes was able to engineer the SL500 to shame the Jaguar XK8 for less than a 100 pound difference is remarkable. It seems to me when one can't find any glaring faults they have to make up one, because as the numbers show the SL500 isn't hindered by it's "weight". And remember it isn't trying to be a "sports car" either.

M

sphinx99 · August 2002

I agree that if it's going to get compared to a Jaguar, then nobody should complain about weight. But if someone claims that it outhandles a Ferrari 360 Modena, expect people to bring up weight.

shoes · August 2002

My issue with the weight of the SL500 is that it creates too much of a sense of isolation from the road and what is going on, which results is the experience being less fun. Driving in the city in a straight line all the time, this is not bad.

I am going to give two more Mercedes a try before giving up and devoting my time to BMW and Audi. I have ordered both the CLK500 which weighs in around 3500 pounds and should be more lithe than the SL500 with the same engine; I also ordered the SL55, but this is because I know I can sell this car in a minute for a profit if I don't like it.

sphinx99 · August 2002

One day, I too shall have the capital that allows me to buy vehicles that I can sell at an instant profit in order to generate more capital.

benznut · August 2002

...is not much mor than that of the Ferrari 575, yet no one complains about the ferrari about being too massive.

I do agree that a Ferrari 360 outhandles the SL55. With 1000 lb difference, it better do. What I referred to my post was that it is amazing that the Merdeces' numbers (in acceleration) are the best of the bunch, shaming even the 360. NOw, that is no small feat in itself. Ferraristi cannot deny that, as all cars carrying the prancing horse have acceleration as a substantial part of the overall "Ferrari thing". And this SL kicked some serious Spider A.S.S.
The SL 55 in my opinion is a better match for the larger Ferrari sibling, the 575 (It already outaccelerated 550).
If you want a mercedes that handles, wait for the upcoming SLR, which should knock heads with Murcielago and Ferrari Enzo.

merc1 · August 2002

Nobody here or anywhere else claimed the SL could outhandle any Ferrari. The earlier post stated that the SL55 could out accelerate the 360 Modena, per MT's latest comparo. That said Mercedes has done a masterful job of making this car as agile as possible with all it's "weight".
<>

There are plenty of cars that are heavy and do just fine, the Ferrari 575M Maranello being one of them. I keep hearing all this talk about the SL being too heavy yet the SC430 and XK8 are all within 200 or so pounds of each other. That hardly makes the SL overweight.

Now the VW Phaeton, at 5000 lbs is overweight compared to it's competition, A8 (1000lbs!!! less), S600 (600lbs less). Now thats "overweight".

benznut,

I'd completely forgotten about the SLR. I don't think I'm going to like the styling though, we'll see.

shoes,

You say the SL is less fun to drive, compared to what? Remember it's not a 911 chaser.

M

habitat1 · August 2002

Before you wet your pants that the "SL55 kicked some serious (Ferrari) Spider A.S.S.", consider that my kid cousin's slightly modified 1970 Buick SS could completely obliterate the SL55 in straight line acceleration for only about $125k less than the SL will sell for. Does this mean anything?

I am a respectful fan of AMG, having personally owned an original 300SEL 6.3 many years ago. But I am apparently not as easily impressed as you and some others who think dropping a nearly 500 horsepower engine in a 4,300 pound two seater is the epitome of automotive engineering. Spectacular engines? yes. Spectacular cars? not really.

Trust me, no one that owns or aspires to a Ferrari 360 is going to somehow feel inferior thanks to the SL55 any more than they would have next to my cousin's Buick. One is a drivers car, the other one is not. Period.

merc1 · August 2002

I'd have to disagree with that, the fact that Mercedes is even compared to Ferrari in any way is "spectacular" enough. The SL55 is still a drivers car, just not as much so as a Ferrari. Automobile even said it was a better track car than the similarly heavy Vanquish and 575M, that is off-the-chart praise for a "mere" Mercedes-Benz. Plus it's even heavier than those two!

I agree though that only area where the SL55 impresses compared to a 360 Modena is in a straight line, but put it against Ferrari's own heavyweight cars the 575M or 456GT and the Benz is all over them.

The 360 and SL55 are in totally different classes. But to say the SL55 isn't at all a drivers car is just not accurate.

M

benznut · August 2002

...let me just tell you that I probably will never own a Ferrari, and not because I would not be able to afford it, but because I would rather get a Benz. That is how I am, obviously different than you. Is the SL an overkill? At 4400 pounds and 500 hp, I have to say so. Is a Ferrari Modena an overkill? Oh yes, and even more expensive (try talking value a little bit). And yet, with an SL55 I still can blow the doors off a 360 Spider in the nearest traffic light. With a three pointed star. How's that for a Ferraristi's ego?

w210 · August 2002

It's silly to bring a Buick into the equation. I would say the comparison between the SL55 and the 360 is more similar to the comparison between the M5 and the 911.

habitat1 · August 2002

I never thought I'd see it in the SL500 forum. The same red light dragster mentlity that suggested a Mustang GT is a better car than a Honda S2000. Good thing the SL55 only comes in an automatic, we wouldn't want to introduce a human element other than mashing your right foot down, now would we? And, given this objective, why would a Buick SS or Pontiac GTO not be appropriate comparisons? Different generations, same mentality.

I guess having money doesn't equate to having class.

benznut · August 2002

...as far as that human element, please let me clarify that I learnd how to drive in a manual (5x2 Speed) 10-ton SAURER truck, at age 14!!! Not matching the revs, the double clutching, and the intermediate throttle just at the right amount meant that you and your passenger could easily fly out of the front windshield.

As far as Biuck SS and Pontiac GTO, Truly and honestly I would not know these cars if they rearended me. Maybe it is the generation gap, or maybe that I was born and raised in Europe (among Alfa Romeos and Fiats).

If your feelings were hurt about the Ferrari, here is another one for you: For $100G less, I can get an M3 BMW and still have a ferraristi next lane taste German exhause fumes (at least if he is slow in shifting action;-))

shoes · August 2002

I also drive a BMW 540, a Porsche 911 and a Mini Cooper S. The SL500 is less fun to drive than any of these.

I agree that there is little difference in weight between the Jaguar XK8, the Lexus SC430 and the SL500. I have owned them all and none of them were much fun to drive.

habitat1 · August 2002

My feelings weren't hurt. I just find it hard to believe that you are trying to apply the "stoplight drag racing" mentality to suggest the SL55 is better than __________. I'm pretty sure that the "fast and furious" crowd is not the target market AMG had in mind when they created the car. If you are under 20, your excessive exuberance is understandable. If you are over 20, perhaps you need have your doctor check into a possible hormonal imbalance.

benznut · August 2002

I am over 20, and perhaps you have misunderstood all that I have said till now. I do not have the tendence to race at stoplights, and for your information, I did not even like The Fast and The Furious at all - too boyish for me. THe reference to acceleration was that I was surprised that a Mercedes, maker of "grandpa-mobile" for a long time can come up with a car to outaccelerate one of the fastest Ferrari. The stoplight example was to put it into the perspective. For God's sake, I do not even like the fact that the exhhaust in the new SL is louder than the previous model. I like my automobile to be as understated as possible, and I do not share the teenage enthusiasm for modified low-rider mustangs or hondas, as you are wrongly confusing me. I just like the fact that a relatively understated machine such as SL55 (and I say relatively) can have such a potential, while offering the creature comforts of an S-Class. And one more time, please do not pretend like Ferrari does not pitch their cars to their target market as having brute acceleration. Like I said before, that is the reason why I would not consider a ferrari, appart from not being that kind of person to have a need for a "road phallus to express my masculinity" (borrowed from some article in a European Mag - sorry I do not remember the name). Maybe that is a reason I would not go with a SL55 either (I would rather be content with a debadged SL 55 :-))

I do not like your off-kilt remarks about lack of class and chemical imbalance. I thought this was a place for enthusiasts, hence the enthusiasm. Show your class at your local country club, every fine-dining Thursday, and do not belittle others, especially you do not know anything about them.

I am now pulling back from this back and forth futile debate. I sugest you do the same, and talk what we are supposed to talk about: cars - not each other.

benznut · August 2002

If Mario Andretti came out of a car smiling... would you go out on a limb and suggest that that car is fun to drive?

w210 · August 2002

I personally find the R230 SL500 much more fun than the 540i (with far less lean and body roll) and in a way, even the 911. It's the convertible's kind of fun with the rush of air in your face and a solid chassis, yet if you close the top, it becomes a luxurious coupe. For pure driving kind of fun, the M3 is hard to beat but the SL500 is neither the 911 or the M3.

I agree with whoever mentioning that the R230 SL500 exhaust is way too loud. To me, engine or exhaust noise is not music to my ears and I rather have Bach over a Ferrari engine at 8,000 rpm. Yes, if I were in the market for a sports car, I would prefer the 996TT over the 360, it's quieter and is a better deal.

The SL55 will be a unique animal, will have to find a way to test drive it before commenting further but I sure am looking forward to the new E55.

merc1 · August 2002

"I also drive a BMW 540, a Porsche 911 and a Mini Cooper S. The SL500 is less fun to
drive than any of these. "

Thats just it though, the SL500 doesn't compete with any of these, now compared to the XK8 or SC430 I would say the SL500 is more "fun". The SL500 is still a luxury car first, something of which none of the above can close to matching. Different cars excel at different things.

The Mini Cooper is more fun than cars that cost waaaay more money, but that doesn't make the more expensive cars "bad" cars.

Lastly "fun" means different things to different people.

M

benznut · August 2002

http://www.kabel1.de/tv/auto/archiv/m/#

Here you can find, among others, two videos of SL55AMG (really good sound), as well as a plethora of other MB videos and other brands. Check it out.

lovemyclk · August 2002

If anyone cares to read the article in Motor Trend, you will find that the piece was not written to "rank" these fine cars. Mario Andretti offered his professional perspective on 4 incredible pieces of automotive engineering.

Mario's choice... the MB. It was his "overall" choice to drive for a variety of reasons. Think he would turn away the 360 or Z8? No way! MB-AMG has built a beast of a touring car, not a track car. Most people who can afford such vehicles will also have their 996, M3, etc. to "play" with!

This inane bashing of the MB is ridiculous.

habitat1 · August 2002

if I were Mario and spent much of my career behind the wheel of Indy / Formula 1 cars, the SL55 would be my choice for a personal car as well. Sort of like getting the turf to go with the surf, or vise-versa.

I did not intend any of my previous comments to be interpreted as bashing the SL55. I perhaps overreacted to the title "SL55 beats all". I agree they were not meant to compete. I should be so lucky as to someday have the choice between an SL55 and a 360.

merc1 · August 2002

Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.

M

shoes · August 2002

OK, let's try this. You decide to blow $250,000 on cars. Do you spend it all on one Bentley or do you get 10 Mini Cooper S's?

I decided to get a BMW 540, a Porsche 911 and a Mercedes SL500. Of these three, the SL500 was the least satisfying to own. It was too flabby, the brakes had no feel, it did not feel fast and it was not enough fun for the money. I sold it and got a Mini Cooper S until I can figure out how to reallocate my car resources.

Do I get an SL55, a CLK 500 or something else?

lovemyclk · August 2002

Assuming your 911 is not a cab, how about a new Dodge Ram quadcab pickup for the million-and-one reasons you hate to admit ;-)

Sounds like your SL was somewhat of an anomoly, as I have yet to read similar experiences elsewhere. It is, in its purest form, a very different ride than your 2 current vehicles.

Sounds like you "need" something either in their class (sharper-edged) or something totally different (i.e. the pickup)! How about an S55 or the upcoming E55?

habitat1 · August 2002

A business associate of mine allocated a similar amount to an M5 and a Ferrari 360 Modena (plus an Acura MDX for the wife). If I had $250k to spend, that's exactly what I would do.

w210 · August 2002

I'll go for an M3 convertible or new Boxter, a 996TT and the new E55.

benznut · August 2002

Mercedes S600TT Sport - Designo Mocha
Ferrari 360 Modena (Manual) - Black/Tan

merc1 · August 2002

E500 60K
SL55 AMG 125K
M3 SMG Convertible 60K

Perfect garage for me.

Benznut, I think you've gone over budget......

M

habitat1 · August 2002

with $250k to spend should allocate $1k for a performance driving school and learn how to drive a stick!

Thank god the M5 only comes in a 6-speed. "SMG" is simply obscene for cars like the M3 or Ferrari 360 unless you had your left foot amputated. And even then, there has to be a good prosthesis for serious driving enthusaists.

P.S. Please don't make any excuses. My wife is barely 100lbs, we live in DC and have a 5-speed Isuzu Trooper, 5-speed Maxima and 6-speed S2000. We may not have $250k to spend, but we do have 16 "row your own" gears in 3 vehicles.

shoes · August 2002

Does anyone know if Mercedes is going to put the twin turbo V-8 from the SL55 in the next E-55? The spec for the new CLK55 are out and this engine is a normally aspirated V-8 with horsepower figures around 376. I fear that this will be the engine in the next E-55.

sphinx99 · August 2002

Do AMG vehicles ship with manual transmissions in Europe?

w210 · August 2002

I believe they got the new prices in Australia and therefore the confirmation that the new E55 will be the supercharged V8.

Put your name down now!

lovemyclk · August 2002

I'd choose:
2003 E55 (75K?)
2003 996 Carerra4 (85K?)
2003 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab (30K)
1967 Corvette Conv. - 327/365HP (guessing 20-30K)
2003 Thunderbird (for the bride... 40K)

Love many of the new roadsters (Boxster, S2000, etc), but my 6'4"/250lb frame just doesn't fit well!!

lovemyclk · August 2002

May have to do without the P/U if the Carerra runs closer to 95-100K. I can always borrow my neighbor's pickup ;-)

merc1 · August 2002

What if I have no desire to drive a stick? Why are you ASSuming that I or anybody else that picked auto-trans cars can't drive a stick? What makes you think I can't drive a stick better than you NOW anyway?

M

habitat1 · August 2002

Sorry for singling you out, I didn't intend to offend you personally, you just happened to have the last "all auto transmission" post.

But it is my personal opinion (which you obviously disagree with) that anyone who picks a cadre of three cars totalling $250k and over 1,200 horsepower - ALL with automatic transmissions - is no serious "driving" enthusiast. I'll give you the two mercedes to deal with a boring commute, since AMG can't figure out how to do a mnual anyway, but a SMG on an M3? Is there no car out there that you would like to have the opportunity to truly interact with?

Perhaps you can drive a stick better than me. But if so, your election to go with 3 slushboxes is even more puzzling. IMHO, rowing your own is the way a sports car was meant to be driven.

Perhaps we could settle this over a friendly round of golf. I'm a 10 handicap. If you're higher, I'll give you the difference, if you're better, I'll still play you even up. Just this condition: the course has to be at least 7,000 yards from the tips and have a slope rating of 140; we play from the tips and we play by USGA rules. IMHO, that's the way golf was meant to be played.

Again, don't take me too seriously, everyone is entitled to their opinion and although I like to debate, I don't want to offend.

nyccarguy · August 2002

First of all, I would like to say that I'm a stick shift fanatic and if you'll read my profile, you'll get a grip of just what my views are. The whole stick vs. automatic vs. automanual transmission thing gets ugly. I've seen it happen on the BMW 3 series & 5 series boards here on edmunds.

The New SL500 (and numerous other MBs) are so beautiful in my eyes that I would definitely have one of them in my garage. Besides the fact that as far as automatic transmissions go, MB is the best in the business (just ask Jaguar, I mean Ford why MB supplies the transmissions for the Supercharged Jaguar line of cars).

Mercedes doesn't make a manual transmission that can handle the power of the SL. The 6 speed from the C230K would get torn to shreds with the torque from the V8.

Personally I think the crudeness of the old SL is kind of cool. I think of the old SL500 as "The World's Most Perfect Ford Mustang Convertible." That's just my opinion though.

Habitat: Did I help or hurt your cause? LOL!

w210 · August 2002

http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?s=6ebd470da156452140bc5edcc9513d84&threadid=14768

E 55 AMG: the most powerful Mercedes-Benz E-Class of all time

In the new E 55 AMG, Mercedes-AMG presents a worthy successor to the popular previous model. The E 55 AMG confidently positions itself at the forefront of all standard-specification sports saloons in its segment: the high-performance engine, familiar from the SL 55 AMG has an output of 350 kW/476 hp at 6100 rpm and develops a maximum torque of 700 Newtonmetres, which is available across a broad range between 2650 and 4500 rpm.

This tremendous power results in the four-door vehicle's extraordinary performance: the Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG passes the 100 km/h mark after just 4.7 seconds, and reaches a speed of 200 km/h in 16.1 seconds. The top speed is 250 km/h (electronically governed). Despite its sporty character, the new AMG high-performance Saloon is very modest when it comes to fuel, with a consumption level of 12.9 litres per 100 kilometres in the NEDC combined cycle. The exhaust emissions are also pleasingly low: the E 55 AMG already complies with the EU4 limits, which are not due to come into force until 2005.

Motor racing expertise influences engine design

The technical highlights of the sophisticated AMG V8 supercharged engine include the mechanical supercharger, located between the cylinder banks, which places the 5.5-litre eight-cylinder engine under a maximum pressure of 0.9 bar. Integrated in the compact supercharger module is the charge-air cooler, which operates along the highly efficient lines of an air/water heat exchanger. Using AMG's wealth of experience in the field of motor racing, the interior of the engine has been given a totally new design: the crankcase, crankshaft and pistons have been reinforced, the cylinder heads and valve train have been optimised and a more powerful oil pump has been added.

AIRMATIC DC semi-active suspension with AMG-specific tuning

To ensure that the high engine output is delivered to the road effectively, the Mercedes-AMG engineers have redesigned the suspension and the braking system. In the E 55 AMG the progressive dynamic handling systems help set the sports Saloon apart from its current competitors. The air-sprung, semi-active AIRMATIC DC suspension with ADS II allows the driver to opt for a more comfortable or a very sporty ride. Damping and springing automatically adjust to the given situation in fractions of a second, and the required tuning can also be selected manually in three stages at the touch of a button. The spring struts, shock absorbers, torsion bars and the entire electronic suspension management have been specifically adapted to the high dynamic potential of the AMG model.

Experience gathered during over three decades in motorsport also served as a basis for the fully modified power transmission, with the steel rear axle and differential cooling, and for the braking system, with Sensotronic Brake Control, familiar from the SL 55 AMG: internally ventilated, perforated brake discs all-round, sized 360 x 36 millimetres at the front and 330 x 26 millimetres at the rear, ensure excellent deceleration of 10.8 m/s2 and practically no fading. Eight-piston fixed callipers at the front axle allow a brake pad surface which is almost twice as large as in the Mercedes-Benz E 500.

New AMG twin-spoke light-alloy wheels

Contact with the road is provided by size 245/40 ZR 18 (front) and 265/35 ZR 18 (rear) wide-base tyres, which are fitted on attractive AMG twin-spoke light-alloy wheels, eight inches wide at the front and nine inches wide at the rear. In addition to the AMG twin-spoke wheels, painted in sterling silver, striking side skirts from the AMG bodystyling package emphasise the elegant silhouette of the Saloon; the V8 KOMPRESSOR lettering on the front wings draws attention to the fact that this is the most powerful E-Class of all time. At the front the AMG front apron, with its large air intakes and clear-glass fog lamps, sets this exclusive sports Saloon apart from the rest, while a fitting finishing touch is provided at the rear by the AMG rear apron with integral, oval, chromed twin tailpipes, left and right.

Fine leather appointments in exclusive nappa/nubuck combination

The interior style of the new Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG follows the lead set by the dynamic exterior: the AMG sports seats have powerful contouring, unique fluting and AMG badges in the backrests, and come in an exclusive nappa/nubuck leather combination. The leather, which also trims the door panels, is available in three different colour combinations. The three round instrument displays in the E 55 AMG are distinguished from those of the other E-Class models by new dials with the V8 KOMPRESSOR and AMG logos, and the speedometer gauge which extends to 320 km/h. Further AMG-specific interior elements include the AMG ergonomic sports steering wheel with racing car-style gearshift buttons, the fine wood trim in bird's-eye maple and the door sill panels with the AMG logo.

merc1 · August 2002

Well I guess we'll have agree to disagree then because around here I tired very quickly of stick shift. If I lived somewhere with a lot of flat out open spaces then I'd go for something in a manual, but even more importantly MY favorite cars (that would fit under the 250K limit) happen to be auto-trans cars....ok. I know nothing about golf, it's extremely boring to me. No offense taken. Come to think of it out of my favorite 10 cars on the planet, only 3 - M5, 575M and 360 Modena are manuals all the rest are either SMG/F1 types or conventionals automatics. I tend to like GT cars more than flat out "sports" cars.

M

Mercedes-Benz SL and SLK (all models)

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