Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
58-60 Square Birds
Just thought I'd put this out there to see if there's any interest in a sqare bird chatbox.
Mine's a 1958 White Hardtop, white/black inside. I'm second owner; car has original 60K miles. Bought it in 1989 (49K miles) from the original owner; a 93 year old lady who could no longer drive.
Even have the original paperwork from Hackensack Ford, Hackensack, NJ.
If there's any interest, I'll post all the options and prices.
Mine's a 1958 White Hardtop, white/black inside. I'm second owner; car has original 60K miles. Bought it in 1989 (49K miles) from the original owner; a 93 year old lady who could no longer drive.
Even have the original paperwork from Hackensack Ford, Hackensack, NJ.
If there's any interest, I'll post all the options and prices.
Tagged:
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I think it's just the laziness of the Detroit engineering of the time, using ladder frames, lots of chrome, huge V8 engines of no great efficiency--all this adds up to weight.
While American styling was wild and creative in the 60s, American innovation and engineering really went south, compared to Europe. Essentially we were making the same cars we made in 1949, with fancier bodies.
Yes, the weights are staggering, especially for a car with such a short wheelbase. Lots of chrome of course, but I think a lot of it comes from all the bells and whistles they came with, plus probably lots of sound deadening material.
However, my T-Bird styling preferences are moot because I found the clamshell buckets in the Flair Birds to be quite uncomfortable. And, since the whole point of owning one of these is for driving (or, at least it should be), I dropped my long-time fascination with these cars once I discovered for myself the lack of front seat comfort. So, as much as I like their overall styling, I've taken Flair Birds off my list of classic cars I'd like to own.
With regard to the Square Birds, I will say that their interior styling was very nice for the period - same thing with the following generation Bullet Birds ('61-'63).
Of course, these ramblings are only my humble opinion.
So, I'll start with the oldest.
I never had any intention of owning a square bird. Like everybody else, I wanted a 55...57 or anything in the early 60's, before the Bird became a Lincoln, or vice versa.
But, I had known about this little old lady, who's back yard butted up against my wife's aunt's back yard, and her low mileage TBird. Since I was the present owner of a "classic" car (64 Galaxie 500 XL convert), I was asked to give her an idea as to what the car was worth, since she could no longer drive.
So, on a beautiful afternoon in 1989, I took the 1964 convert over to her house to take a look.
The car, white with black/white interior was parked nose in in a very narrow one car garage in Ridgefield Park, NJ. Car was on four flats, and hadn't been started in four years. But, it had an original 49,000 miles! Car had no dents, but you could see where the little old lady had some little old accidents. The grille inset was the Chevy-like 60 instead of the honeycomb 58 (probably picked up from a wrecking yard), the front seats needed covers, and the dash was all cracked up and in bad shape.
So, I told her that, without starting the car, I figured $4,000.
Two days later, I got a call that she "liked me" (I guess when your 93, you like anybody that talks to you), she also saw (by my convert) that I was not out to buy and sell, and she offered me the car for 4K.
The next weekend, by brother-in-law and I, armed with battery cables, tools, new plugs, and a rented air compressor, went to see the car. We filled up the tires (they held air!), pushed the car outside, removed all the plugs, squirted some oil down the cylinders, hooked up battery cables, put a little gas down the carb, and attempted to start it, air filter on, of course.
Darn thing kicked over pretty quickly, but was running rough. Car looked good, though, and I started to get an appreciation as to how advanced these cars were in 1958.
Took it for a ride, car still missed, but decided to buy it anyway. Drove it home, getting a little concerned about the miss, parked it in my garage, and went upstairs for dinner.
After dinner, I came downstairs, popped the hood, and found four unattached sparkplug wires! My brother-in-law thought I had re attached all wires, while I thought he has attached his side while I did my side.
Attached the wires, and (surprise) the miss went away.
One thing that the little old lady said to me was that she and her husband (never had kids) really wanted the two seater, but they waited too long to buy one, and the sqare birds were announced. I imagined buying a 57 two seater with 49,000 original miles in 1989!
Tomorrow I'll look for the original Hackensack Ford paperwork with the cost of the car and all the exotic options, like skirts. I'll post all the figures and bottom line cost, including what they got for a trade-in on their 1950 Nash.
I always liked these cars, especially the 1960 models.
They handled horribly and had lousy brakes, still, they had a classy look.
Pricing for a 1958 Thunderbird as follows: (Taken from original car invoice dated 4/14/1958, Hackensack Ford, Hackensack, NJ.)
hi-fi radio--$128
Cruse-o-matic--$216
Pwr steering--$88
FA (?) heater--$90
BU lights--$19
Wheel covers--$24
PA (?) wipers--$14
Undercoat--$35
WW tires--$55
Fender shields--$35
base price--$3,846
accessories--$712
total--$4,558
less trade in-$700 (1950 Nash)
net cost--$3,558
The 58 product planner, Thomas Case, fought to retain a two seat version as well as the four seat version; Robert McNamara shot him down. However, if it weren't for McNamara, the Bird might have died altogether.
Car was definitely "unit construction".
Rapid fire, clever engineering. Two thirds into the design stage, they discovered that there wasn't enough width for rear wheel movement. They split the die and moved the two sections apart.
To keep the height of the car 10" lower than the regular Ford, the resulting design revealed that the driver's butt was only 12" off the ground. This resulted in high door sills, and the seats literally in a deep well. Bingo, the first "tunnel control console", which has just about become a standard with any bucket seat car.
Wixom plant went on overtime to meet the demand; profit per car reached $1,000.
Convertible was a late addition. 1958 sales were 36,000+ for the hardtop and 2,134 for the convertible.
If you're not familiar with the car, you get a surprise to learn that the radio speaker is in the console, along with the heater controls and ashtray.
When you buy an after market stereo radio to fit the car, they provide a speaker set up housing two separate speakers that's designed to fit in the console. (However, I did have to take a hammer to the driveshaft hump to get the stereo speaker to clear the hump.)
To change the cracked dash and to provide room to work, I had to remove the instrument section, glove box, seats, and console. It was a tough job, but you can't tell any difference from an original installation.
When I was a kid working in a gas station, we had a customer with a beautiful '60 T-Bird. It was gunmetal grey (not a great color)and had the black and white vynal interior. I remember it had factory A/C which was pretty rare, even in So. Calif. He kept this car in immaculate condition and ended up selling it for (I think)
800.00 in 1968. He offered it to me first.
Since I already had a couple of cars and probably didn't have the money anyway, I passed.
Oh well!
It could always have been resurrected in the present time or maybe late 90s.
But, let's not forget the 1983 through 1989 TBird, especially the TurboCoupes.
I bought a new 1985 TC in black/gray inside/5 speed. It was a great car, until I totalled in the last snowstorm of a miserable winter in the NEast, 1994.
At slightly over 100,000 miles, the original brakes had just been changed (95,000); the clutch was original; the shocks were original; but the turbo had been changed.
Car ran like a medium sized V-8 while getting over 30 MPG on the highway. And the 88's and 89's with the intercoolers were quicker.
Fantastic car, and a styling leader in 1983.
After riding on a highway, when you come to a stop, the smoke coming out of the open breather pipe is terrible. Looks like the car is overheating. Also, blows blue smoke out the back when first started (valveguides).
Since it's not a showcar, and I only put about 2,000 miles per year on the car, I don't feel it's worthwhile to have the motor rebuilt. (I know where I can get my hands on a 69 Cougar 390/335 engine, but that car's been sitting for a long time and probably needs rebuilding, too.)
(69 Cougar, XR 7, 4 speed, low miles, factory sun roof, factory A/C, red/white vinyl top/white interior, but the car turned to junk because it's been sitting in my relative's yard for (I'm guessing) over ten years.)
I was thinking about converting the 58's open breather system to a closed system, by replacing the open breather pipe (picked up a closed system breather pipe from a junkyard 64 Ford 352) and running the fumes into the valve covers using a pcv valve.
Is the idea too wild?
What you've got now is a crankcase ventilation system where air in vented into the valve covers, through the engine and out the road draft tube.
Around 1963 as I recall (at least in California) they went to Postive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) where the crankcase vapors were ducted into the intake manifold (or as I recall, into the air cleaner housing if you were retrofitting a pre-'63 car) instead of going out the draft tube. That's what I did with my '61 Chevy and I think with the '56 Stude. I remember taking the road draft tube off at least one car. It may still be in my father's garage.
A few years later (1968?) they went to a closed crankcase system where air is sucked through the air filter, then through a hose to the oil filler cap, through the crankcase, up through the other valve cover through a PCV valve and into either the intake manifold or a spacer under the carb.
You have an interesting problem that can probably only be solved with a case of STP, but I think you should call Tom and Ray. After they get going with it it'll probably be good enough to make their next CD.
If the car really has low miles the rings should be okay unless maybe they rusted to the cylinder walls from sitting.
No, I was just thinking that sometimes clean oil burns more slowly than old filthy oil.
There is no fix for worn rings. You can't replace that big a gap with something out of a can. The oil is just getting up into the combustion chamber. I suppose you could slow it down a little by gunking up the crankcase but I'm not sure this is a great idea on an old engine.
But, the engine really does have only 60,000, so would it be worth to just add a can of ATF to the oil, or do what the old timers used to do: pour it slowly into the carb.
If the tube into the valve cover is a bad idea, I was able to find the plate that goes under the carb that lets fumes get recycled into the combustion chamber.
If I doctor something like this up, can I run a hose directly from the overflow tube into the pipe on the plate without a PCV valve?
Remember, I'm not looking for authenticity here. I just want to do something to keep the fumes down so that I can use the car for longer trips without other drivers thinking that the car's overheating.
I don't wanna catch you pouring anything into your carburetor but gas
If you jury rig a PVC system you are just going to foul your air cleaner and your spark plugs. The engine cannot process that level of blow-by.
I'd say flush the engine with cheap oil, do some quick filter changes, and replace the valve stem seals and see what happens. Even pulling the heads and doing valve guides may help considerably. It's not a very hard job on a car like yours.
Oh...I know, others here will disagree with me.
I think the idea of changing the oil several times is a good one. Also, try a can of Rislone. This stuff really works and this comes from a guy who usually does not believe in oil additives.
Changing the valve guides isn't a real complex or expensive repair and you just might have a big difference.
And...60,000 miles was getting to be overhaul time back in the "old days". Might be time for a rebore too.
In my younger days, I had no problem changing manual trans (57 Chev 3 speed) and rear ends, and doing brake jobs in my driveway; no more. So, I'm not about to tackle removing the heads, and, like I said, the blue smoke from the valve guide problem only lasts for the first half mile or so. (I still don't mind doing simple stuff like changing radiators, water pumps, carbs, doing tuneups, etc.)
The 58 is an amazing car to work on, with the hood opening from the front. The motor sits so far forward from the firewall, you can actually see most of the bell housing from up top. But, when you need to do radiator or front engine work, it's easier to take the hood off than try and work around it.
The plate that I was referring to sits between the carb and the manifold, so it's downstream of the air filter. (It's an identical setup to the PCV system on my 64 Galaxie convert.) But, as noted, it could still foul the plugs if the blowby is bad enough.
Seems like a pretty simple thing to try out, though. If it doesn't work. I can always throw in a new set of plugs.
But, do I really need the PCV valve?
Been kicking around the idea of selling one of them anyway. The convt has some nasty NEast rust underneath, but still runs/looks fine, even with 205,000 miles (about 110,000 on the motor). Owned it since 1969. It's like part of the family, now.
It'll be a tough choice.
Not that difficult unless you lose air pressure in the middle of the job and the valve falls.
If this happens, the mechanic will turn the air blue with swear words that make a Drill Sergeant look like a choir boy....
As far as ATF...I once watched an old timer free up a sticking lifter by pouring a can down the carb. In this case, it worked!
Talk about SMOKE !!!
In the crankcase, it might work, as ATF is very high detergent.
I once stopped some NUT from pouring borax into the intake air horn of a Mercedes diesel. He was going to "seat the rings". I really regret having intervened in hindsight. It could have been amusing.
Yeah, put some valve stem seals in that T-Bird. It's worth the effort in this case I think.
What's a ballpark figure for an engine rebuild-$2,000?
Can you imagine how brittle those stem seals must be after 43 years!
The blowby? Well, I think a good machine shop would probably charge you around that 2000.00 number if you bring them the engine. I've been out of the loop for awhile and could be off.
Probably needs a rebore etc...
Sounds like the car may be worth the money and effortif the body is sound.
Of course, there's always the rope-through-the-spark-plug-hole trick.