Corvettes and all things about them

starrow68 · April 2002

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4839

andys120 · April 2002

I was accelerating away from a light in my almost new '91 SAAB 9000 Turbo when the clutch basically grenaded (cracked clutch disc). When they wanted to charge me for a replacement I simply asked if the clutch plate had any sign of abuse such as burning or scoring on the plate. I knew the answer would be "no".

I asked if they would let me discuss with the Saab Factory Tech.

Long story short. They did the fair thing and gave me a new clutch. In the absence of signs of abuse it's hard to see how a clutch could fail at
12,000 miles, to Saab's credit they acknowledged that.

starrow68 · April 2002

Glad you enjoy your car.

speculative · April 2002

they make cool original cars, but they really need to get there act togeather. Nothing they have is competitive for its price range. Nore are they very reliable. Still unique cars...

andys120 · April 2002

you should be aware that Saab's FOR scores have improved considerably. My '96 is much, much better than either of my 9000s was.

speculative · April 2002

post takeover reliability. Are they still getting better? Dont get me wrong, whenever I see one I really like the look and interior, I just think they get outperformed by german and japanese competaters for the same $$...if they were either cheaper, or faster, or more luxery I could see some advantage, but as is they need a redesign....and maybe 60 more HP. T

starrow68 · May 2002

Seems the 2002 model year is almost over. Last chance to special order is May 5 according to one dealer. After that it is dealer stock or place an order on a 50th 2003 model. They start production in June.

starrow68 · May 2002

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020508/dew011_1.html

Article on feature new to 2003 Vette's.

dena4 · May 2002

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11713

dena4 · May 2002

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11712

dena4 · May 2002

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11712

starrow68 · May 2002

http://www.badazcorvettes.com/~vstella/video/1200.mpg

ruking1 · June 2002

You ought to cruise by this thread in Edmunds.com in the Sports car section!

E46 BMW M3 ---- Engines Blowing Up?

starrow68 · June 2002

Best Premium Sports Car in initial Quality:

http://www.jdpower.com/auto/search/winners.asp?StudyID=625&CatID=1

verozahl · June 2002

Initial Quality the highest? Surveyed owners simply had lower expectations to begin with ...

joelis · June 2002

I wonder how many of these cases can be attributed to inexperienced BMW owners who don't know how to take care of a high performance engine? They think they have a race car, but don't even know how to read the gauges to make sure the car is properly warmed up, much less make sure that the engine has its proper break in period.

I guess the same could be said for some C5 and Z06 owners. Its just that the LS1 and LS6 engines can handle the 'abuse' much better.

I personally always have the D.I.C. set to OIL TEMP to help remind me to wait until the engine is ready to go.

I think the most important part of a high performance engines longevity is the break in period. If you run the shite out of it before all the components have a chance to seat properly, you are just asking for quick trouble.

Someone should start a topic of "what performance car model has the most ignorant, inexperienced, abusive owners" and see how it relates to that particular car's longevity rating.

ruking1 · June 2002

#66

You make a good point! Reading the M-3 blown engine thread is a bit of gallows humor for me! As you probably know I was almost on the list for the 2001 and the 2002 BMW M-3.

Given 3000 total USA M-3 production per yr, there is a rumor that there are 88 engines (with more that haven't been published ) with grenading issues.

There were pre production rumors through the various car magazines that the major reason for the 2001 BMW M-3 delay was grenading engine issues. That was a MAJOR red flag for me. Evidently, they didnt solve the issues before production, or in fact felt they could deal with the fallout in the market place by fixing only those who are the most insistent.

Another personal reason I went to the eight cylinder Z06, was that once you make a 6 cylinder that "performance" oriented, the driver has to take pains to break it in right Operate it right and do the massive amounts of maintenance necessary to keep it running right and keep the engine on the unexploded edge side!
One change that they made from the EURO versions that was very nice was to go from solid lifters (expensive and potentially critical adjustments) to a hydralic lifter type situation!

Another telling situation (minor red flag) is that the M-3 racing machines much to Porsche's chagrin (since they race against M-3's) went to the eight cylinder!

The other oxymoronic thing is that the SMG is supposed to have FAIL safe rev limiters, but out of 88 or more engines a good % of engines that crapped out have SMG !!???

How Corvette might intergrate the concept of SMG remains to be seen. It would be interesting to see what the drive train losses will be, say : 6 speed, normal automatic, and SMG. If the drive train losses are less than the normal automatic, that would be a GLARING advantage. And a big IF, it had the same or less drive train loss than a 6 speed the writing would almost be on the wall! But the truth is that these are not problems that series of dyno runs couldnt ferret out.

nosho · June 2002

FWIW,

SMG is a manual 6-speed with the foot-operated clutch replaced by a hydraulic pump and electric control valves. Same losses (no more & no less) as a foot-operated manual transmission.

ruking1 · June 2002

#68

Then based on what you said which I already had known, then the writing is on the wall. It makes BMW's auto transmissions as well as Corvette's auto transmissions conceptually obsolete.

nosho · June 2002

are unlikely to go away. The SMG transmissions will wear out a clutch under hard driving whereas the torque converter won't wear out. This effects warranty issues, so manufacturers would rather sell TC transmissions.

Ultimately, "clutch-less" CVT transmissions (ala Audi multitronic) will take over with electronic throttle control to prevent over-powering of the wet clutch on launch. Maybe better than a torque converter but no substitute for a foot-operated manual....

sphinx99 · June 2002

I drove my first Corvette today, a friend's shiny new Chrysler test vehicle (just an ordinary '02 coupe with some data collection stuff under the hood.) As a longtime Honda 4-banger driver, let me say up front that this was quite an experience. Not necessarily better, but different in a very exciting way. At first as I was shifting through the gears and picking up speed I was thinking, "gee, this really doesn't seem particularly powerful." Then I realized that I wasn't even pushing a quarter of the way down on the throttle; the pedal is quite a bit stiffer than cars I'm used to. When I pushed deeper the car took off like a rollercoaster. WOW!

At idle, the engine was not only loud but I could feel it through the chassis to the seats to my butt. Not sure if this was a good feeling, almost like a slight massage at idle. I can't complain about the handling but the visibility and internal ergonomics weren't too exciting. There was more noise coming from the back than the front, almost as though engine noise was making its way from the front-mounted engine to the rear trunk, then into the cabin. At first I was positive I was driving a rear-engine car.

I liked the plastic top of the coupe, great upward visibility on the car. Brakes were phenomenal. It seemed a bit heavy into turns but planted nonetheless. 28 year old + corvette turned out to be a disaster in the making, I better not buy one of these for at least ten more years. It is way too exciting

Anyway, just wanted to say that I was pretty deeply impressed. I don't think I'd buy one until the visibility improved, especially over the large rear, and for some reason (maybe just lack of familiarity) the car seemed to do a pretty poor job of inviting me to explore its potential; I guess the road feedback isn't as tightly presented as I am used to. Nonetheless that's a mighty impressive car Chrysler has built. If they can cut a tiny bit off its size and lift its interior up a couple of notches, and hopefully smoothen the engine a bit (it felt like it didn't want to rev and wasn't smooth at all) I could definitely see myself driving one in a few years....

ruking1 · June 2002

I wonder what analysis you would have had if it was a comparable NSX? So did you test drive a Chrysler or a Chevrolet product?

starrow68 · June 2002

Having driven an MGB and then a Pulsar for over a dozen years each, moving into to C5 Coupe was exciting to say the least. Not sure about the exhaust note or engine noise you noticed, my stock system is almost silent at idle from my point of view. Next to our daughter's Flowmaster Mustang GT it is so quiet some have asked if it was even running. Have to fix that. The only time I feel or hear the exhaust note is at WOT, usually up hill on onramps as that seems the safest place I've found to try WOT and I really like the HUD with it's shift light, saves looking down from the road at the tach.
As to engine noise not sure I hear it much and only thing I've felt through the seat is the sound system. Cranked it once and noticed the outside mirror took the beat as well, plastic cars do have issues.
As to visibility, sitting 6' 3" about 1 inch from the top with the seat as low as it will go I do not have any issues, and think it is as good as most I've driven so not something that will be an issue for everyone.
And as to driving it after you get to the point where it won't entice you to explore it's limits on occasion, don't hold your breath. Only a little surprise when one of the local club members left in blue smoke after a meeting with his wife, think he might be mid 70's. Of course those old big block Vette's don't have traction control.

sphinx99 · June 2002

"I wonder what analysis you would have had if it was a comparable NSX?"

No idea, I've never driven a NSX.

"So did you test drive a Chrysler or a Chevrolet product?"

oops GM. Don't know why I said Chrysler. Brain freeze!

ruking1 · June 2002

It is interesting but when the C-5 model first came out it was accused of having lifted most of the styling cues from the NSX. But when you follow the history behind the Corvette, the C-5 really was if I may, an evolution of its own history and in fact may have taken some of the styling cues from existing manufacturers. In fact the NSX could be seen as taking a lot of styling cues from the Corvette.

At app 87-91k for a new NSX, for my two cents, I'd just as soon get two Z06's or a Z06 and a vert or coupe for the same money. But then again that is my personal opinion. I have ridden in one and had the fortune of a friend asking me to take a 200 mile leg on a 525 mile R/T journey. It is truly a performer. You would not go wrong in getting one! (except for premature tire wear and perhaps a rebuild of a transmission)I'd say if you can, test drive it! You will not be disappointed! The Z06 and or vert and coupe are actually better performers at a bit more than half the price.

strohjim · June 2002

I have an 01 Bowling Green Metallic convertible with an automatic. Does anyone know the total number of these built? Any help would be appreciated

starrow68 · June 2002

http://www.idavette.net/facts/2001endpro.htm

joelis · June 2002

I am curious to know how you would compare the C5 you drove with your current S2000?

I can tell you from an observation standpoint how an S2000 performs on the track in real world conditions compared to Corvettes and Vipers, but I am curious how an actual S2000 owner sees it.

sphinx99 · June 2002

Eye-opening on a couple of levels.

At first I didn't think the vette was that fast, but that was because I didn't even have the throttle a quarter of the way down. I don't think I came close to flooring it the entire time, in fact I was afraid to see how fast it could go, initially because of the car's reputation, and soon enough because I could feel how much torque the engine was putting out. I felt more tentative with the vette. From the day I bought it, the S2000 felt like a car I could take right up to its limits - everything is very linear and controlled. I didn't feel that from the Corvette. I'd describe the S2000 as a sports car that begs you to drive it at 10/10ths, the corvette a sports car that makes you afraid to drive it at 10/10ths. I suppose each has its own unique appeal!

The shaking from the exhaust was another subjective difference that I still can't get out of my mind. Silky versus brutal. It's like watching Ray Allen shooting 3s versus Shaq dunking. Another metaphor - the S2000 is a bow and arrow, the Corvette a couple of sticks of dynamite. Pick your poison, I guess.

In the end I think I'd be happier with the S2000 because of the tighter ergonomics, stiffer body and much improved precision and road feedback. Even the pretty impressive Corvette seemed imprecise and unsteady next to the razor blade that the S2000 is commonly described as, especially in steering and road feedback where I think the Corvette could use a little work. I wish the engine were as buttery as the Hondas I'm used to... the smooth power of a Lexus V8, for example, without giving up the performance specs of the LS1/LS6. Maybe the C6 will offer that. The vette also didn't seem to track well for some reason - bumps deterred its path. At first I thought it was me or the wind, but it was definitely the tires and suspension. Maybe it was a problem with that particular car?

Ultimately, as a S2000 owner, the Corvette's engine wasn't enough to make me forget its size and weight which IMO are definite liabilities in cornering. Moreover, living in Detroit the Corvette is unfortunately not much of a status symbol, being as common as family sedans here. Driver demographic also plays a role, given the huge number of automatic status-only Corvettes in the Detroit metro area; the S2000 has a much more focused demographic. I could see how a Z06 and a S2000 could be considered similar cars for their single-mindedness, but the coupe seemed to be much more of torquey GT cruiser with a really loud exhaust - at least from the perspective of the s2k's driver seat.

A little more refinement might make me more interested, but it might also alienate the existing owner base that prefers the exhaust rumble and heavy engine. Tough call on GM's part, I wonder how they'll go with the C6. I'd like to see a 4.5L version of the Z06-tuned engine, putting out propertionately less hp/torque, in a somewhat smaller and lighter car. I'd also like to see that engine sitting lower to drop the front hood, and lastly I for one would sacrifice a little of the storage space to make the butt smaller. In fact, drop and round off the rear a la the older Corvettes, and you'll have a pretty sexy car. The current one is just too big for a 2-seater.

I'm not sure the owner of either of these cars could ever appreciate the other. They both probably get you from point A to point B with similar swiftness, but do so in vastly different ways.

ruking1 · June 2002

I think the more apples to apples comparison would be S2000 vs the BMW Z-3.

sphinx99 · June 2002

There are actually a surprising number of S2000 owners on s2ki.com who also own or have owned a Corvette.

ruking1 · June 2002

#81

I wouldn't doubt that at all! In the process of getting my Z06, the S2000 was on my short list. The M-3 was also, among others.

ruking1 · June 2002

#80

Add to that the MB-SLK 230.

sfeige1 · June 2002

I own a 2001 Vet Convertible - the gas gauge is flucuating and reads Empty most of the time. Have taken it to the dealership for repair but they are stumped - even says they are talking to GM. Have replaced sensors, sending units, etc. no luck! Now working on electrical. Has anyone had this problem???

ruking1 · June 2002

#84

It would be interesting to see what your DIC says also. Mine is numerically (DIC) and visually (analog gauges) (after mental calculations) very very close. This piece of triangulation should be able to further fault isolate.

joelis · June 2002

Good feedback. I am the type who loves the corvette the way it is - big brutish power. So much so that I am putting on a new afermarket exhaust system that will make the stock one sound like it came off a 4 cyl corolla.

I still would like to take a spin in an S2000 some day to get that "bow & arrow" perspective.

I can see how some people would own both - totally different driving perspectives - variety is good.

Hell, my other car right now is an LHS. You can't get much further across the spectrum than that...

leadfoot4 · June 2002

According to what I've read on the corvette forum.com, a lot of gas gauge problems seem to be due to a build up of deposits somewhere in the sending unit of the gauge. A very healthy dose of fuel injector cleaner, along with a brand of gasoline that has a high percentage of detergents(like Mobil)seems to help.

chrissyfin · June 2002

has anyone experienced any problems with their 1998 targa glass top, where it shows surface cracking marks?

dcdude · June 2002

There have been service bulletins issued about this problem in the past, check here:

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/kb/index.php?ownertopic_id=33

jimxo · June 2002

Can I buy a Corvette with either of these plans? I'm getting mixed messages from different dealers. I was told it's up to the dealer if they want to partispate.

TIA

starrow68 · June 2002

Seems it is totally up to the dealer on GMS or GMO pricing. When I started looking at the end of the 91 model year, no one would discuss it. After 9/11 and the incentives came out there seemed to be a lot of dealers on the internet who were taking GMS/GMO deals but nothing local. As sales came back up for the 2002 model year even some of the internet dealers were not using it any more. Now with the 2003 out for order I'm guessing there may be some 2002's available around the country if you want to take what's on the lot. Then again our local dealer has two almost identical silver Z06's and a used 2001 Z06 in silver and is asking sticker plus $7500 for the new ones, so depends on where you look.

starrow68 · June 2002

Go to the current issue of Car and Driver, fun reading.

sequoiasaurus · June 2002

I am looking at a 2001 corvette that is some distance away from me and am wondering if there is a way to obtain the orginial sticker information. The seller doesn't seem to know what options were on the car since he bought it used. I have the VIN number available so hopefully someone with a phone number or web site can guide me into the right direction to get this info.

Thanks

jimxo · June 2002

Try your local Chevy dealer, they should be able run the vin and get a service history as well.

starrow68 · June 2002

This link gets you original option codes and list price at end of model year, may have gone up a little during the year.

http://www.idavette.net/facts/2001.htm

Then there is a list of codes somewhere in the car, in glove box or inside rear deck panels, not sure until I look.

Also on that link there is final production numbers link giving how many by color and auto/6sp got produced, interesting data unless it is Torch Red.
Good luck.

vinnyny · June 2002

I just spoke with the regional sales manager for Chevy in my area about this very issue...She advised me that that whether or not they offer GMS/GMO pricing is completely up to the dealer. However, she advised me that she has helped people get those discounts by calling the dealers directly. If you're really interested, you might want to contact your regional sales manager to see if he might be willing to help you. Good luck!

starrow68 · June 2002

After noting the other day that local dealer has sticker plus $ 7,500 on Z06's and plus $ 6,500 on one vert I come across the local newspaper ad this morning. Dealer I'm not familiar with has one coupe listed at $ 6500 off MSRP in the paper. Just goes to show that shopping around can save a big pot of money.

sphinx99 · June 2002

The dealership I visited around here was selling the coupes and convertibles for about $2-3k below sticker, and the Z06 for just a shade under sticker.

jimxo · June 2002

Thanks for the info on GMS/DMO pricing. I think when my time comes I will give that a try.

verozahl · June 2002

Didn't see any Vette on the road this sunny Saturday yet. What are you all doing?! Last two weekends, you couldn't cross the street without having a full spectrum of Vettes passing by.

Corvettes and all things about them

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