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No one's criticizing your children, your profession, your intellect - they're expressing a different opinion about whether your car is a class leader. Even if you post ONE more time that it sells well, the opinion will continue to differ. I've been around for ages as well, and I have yet to see anyone berated and argued into submitting to another member's opinion - I've seen them respond to fact, but opinion? No.
The Hyundai Sonata is selling extremely well. Does that make it an ELLPS? No. That fact in no way detracts from the vehicles sales or appeal, but sales numbers do not indicate anything about the car apart from its appeal to consumers. Period.
Let's avoid turning this discussion, and a very minor point within that discussion, into the Middle East conflict.
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Maybe you should create a new thread: Maxima vs. LaCrosse vs. Taurus vs. Genesis.
Mainstream Large Sedans
It's not been active in awhile, but perhaps, as with many general discussions, it would see new life & activity with an on-topic post to stimulate conversation.
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Well what I actually wanted to say that I went to Nissan website and took a look. Agree - interior does not look like luxury car but is pleasant enough. The point I want to make is that I compared it with closest competitors - Buick Regal and Lincoln MKZ - all they are similar in every dimensions and purpose. It does not look like competitor to Avalon or Taurus which are larger cars.
Then I went to truecar.com and configured Maxima with all options and got price around $33,600 in Bay area - almost 6K discount from sticker price. Similarly equipped entry level luxury cars, like A4, MKZ, G37 cost around 36K-37K according to truecar.com. Regal is priced similar to Maxima with 2.0T turbo engine. BTW A4 has engine similar to Buick and MKZ as engine similar to Maxima, but better interior quality. And I guess Buick is to A4 (both are German cars) same as Maxima to G. With exception that it has better exterior design and higher quality interior than Maxima. I would certainly test drive and compare Regal to Maxima, Regal may prove to be more sporty car after all (though Opel never had this kind reputation) and it is certainly more elegant. If you do not like G - CTS is most logical choice - it cost same 36k options but with 3.0L engine. True there is G25 Journey - but it is decontented car, it costs less. BMW is even smaller car than G and Lexus IS is smaller yet.
I remember comparos where Maxima lost to Dodge Charger in its spoting intentions. Nissan after all is a large FWD car. I drove previous Maxima - it was smaller but no more sporty than base Mustang. I do not know from where sport-sedan notion comes from when people talk about Maxima. People use sport-sedan notion too often. I heard even Sonata called sport sedan which is absolutely ridiculous.
My only gripe with it is that you absolutely need the rear camera option or an aftermarket spoiler because you can't see the rear end while parking.(like the Civic, there are *zero* visual cues). But it's not alone in that, either. The worst offender currently is actually the new Honda Crosstour, which might as well be a utility van when it comes to driver visibility. It also could use something on the hood for the same reason - you kind of expect a Cadillac to have a hood ornament. It's an amazingly easy car to drive fast, but amazingly hard to park.
Me, I don't parallel park if I can help it, so it's not an issue. Just something to be aware of.
edit - truecar and cars direct say there are still some 2010 CTS models out there, so you might be able to get one for closer to 30-32K if you don't mind black. (27.5K for a base model(29 with auto), 30K for the Luxury, 32K for the Performance, and 34K for the 3.6) Almost all seem to be black or silver, which is usually what's left over.
But.. even a base model CTS for ~29K... that makes every other mid-size sedan in the upper 20K range drop off of my radar. Especially the emasculated Regal. Got to love year end fire sales at GM.
Not sure how much weight is added by the options.
Not light, but being a fat guy in a room with a bunch of morbidly obese people tends to make you look thin
So, will the 1-series M qualify as the best ELLPS (I know, it's a coupe, but in a 3-box sort of way) on the planet? It's definitely piqued my interest.
I came very close to ordering a a 2011 128i, optioned to my specs(M Sport Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, Harman-Kardon audio, keyless entry, and xenons). Manual leather seats and no hole in the roof. My dealer was offering $2000 off MSRP. With BMW's $1500 Holiday cash and my $500 CCA rebate I was looking at @$32000+TTL. Good deal, but I kept thinking what I could buy used for similar money, such as a Z4 M Coupe or a Cayman. I'd have the same dilemma with the 1er M Coupe- for $47,000 I can get a CPO E9x M3 or better yet, a pristine 2005 0r 2006 E46 M3 ZCP(and have plenty of cash left over for a Brembo kit, pads, and track tires).
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
Yeah, that too...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
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The 25x is about 4k cheaper and if you can do without the xtra HP of the 37x it might be a good way to get into the car new, if you can do without some of the 37's options not available on the 25.You also gain about 2 xtra miles per gallon on the 25.
Just something I was considering and thought others may have also??
I say the X because I live in the N East and would want it for the winter.
Plus, the deals people have been reporting on the G37 and G25 are not that much different from one another. The G37 is not that much more per month and your getting a heck of a lot more car for the money with the G37 then you are with the G25.
The G25 basically serves the purpose of getting people into the Infiniti brand without too much bells and whistles about it. I still fee the G37 is a much better buy over the G25, obviously for the sport enthusiast as well.
I just saw Motor trend uses as a gauge the snobbery factor to judge as in the G25 article linked here. Are we dealing with that here?
I frequent the "Toyota on the mend" thread and all topics are allowed to be discussed over there, I guess that's where I'm coming from. Maybe a different moderator?
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, something I fought for.
The First Amendment does not apply to private internet forums. Start your own board if you want to discuss anything you like- that's what a bunch of us did almost one decade ago...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
However, anyone who is truly committed to changing this can take the first step with me - We can drop by your friend's or relative's house (better yet... the boss!), stone drunk, with my accordion, and sit on their porch singing show tunes all night to proclaim our newly-defined right to Freedom of Speech.
I joke, but the fact is that our topic-oriented discussions are just that. We allow you to discuss any vehicle-related topic that might be of interest - we just require that you do so in a discussion about that vehicle. New and old members alike should have some reasonable expectation that the majority of conversation centers around the topic in the discussion title, and/or around the vehicles listed in the discussion header. Some of the discussions in Auto News are looser and more fluid. Sedans discussions are vehicle(s)-specific.
I have, at least twice, pointed to a perfectly good discussion to talk about the Maxima (plus there are Maxima-specific discussions). No reason that conversation can't be continued there, unless of course there's not enough interest, which would mean there's... just not enough interest in general. It's pretty clear that the Maxima does not, at this time, qualify as an ELLPS.
And of course you are perfectly allowed to start your own message board - not every Forum style suits every person, and there is no One True Forum. Lots of people frequent a variety of fora, on a variety of topics. That's cool. Hey, we even started an Off-Topic board a few years ago, recognizing that sometimes people just want to chat about stuff other than cars. I think we've actually become more flexible over the past few years... who'd have thought we'd be swapping recipes, book and movie recommendations, political views, and travel ideas on a car site?
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G is tight inside? You do know this is the ELLPS thread, right? All of these sedans are small. If you need space, you should be shopping in another segment.
Regal a European car? Sort of. The Buick Regal is the American version of the Opel Insignia, which is built by Opel, a GM owned company. There are lots of fine "European" American cars (Holden Commodore, Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Monaro, Opel Vectra), but to imply they might be unreliable because they are European is just ridiculous.
Volvo S60 small and unreliable? Again, what's all this "unreliable European car" talk? I have owned many European cars over the years and didn't find them any more or less reliable than any other car. And how does the S60 have a poor reliability record when this is the first model year? And again, why do you think the S60 is tight? You do know Volvo also has something called the S80 for people who want more space, right?
CC and A4 out the window too? Really, I assume they break down too much also?
Japanese cars need California design? So, the G37 is ugly and so is the TL and TSX I assume?
You do realize that you've eliminated every car in this discussion thread, right? May I suggest you start a new thread entitled, "ELLPS BRAG" (Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans that are Big Reliable And Good-looking).
Here's what I don't understand. I don't like pickup trucks, so I don't bother visiting any truck forums here. Never have. Why would I? Just to tell people I don't like trucks? You don't like cars that are small, ugly, and/or European.
OK, thanks for visiting.
I wrote this in another forum with respect to BMWs, but I think it addresses the situation here as well:
I have a Jeep TJ and I never post snotty comments on the Hummer or Land Rover boards. My TJ does what I want it to do and I don't need to justify my choice. Ditto for my Mazdaspeed3. I leave the guys in the GTI, MCS, Si, and WRX boards to their own devices. Again, why bother them? And as for my X3 and 3er, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to troll the Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, or MB boards. What's the point? The same goes for my Speed Triple. However, there always seems to be a few non-BMW owners who just have to yell "Mine's bigger!" in the Bimmer topics.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive
i also think the selective editing gets old certainly when good points are being made- like why is the TSX in this category again but the Max is not?? same price range and fwd only difference is Acura vs Nissan nameplate.
I think you might find the conversation in our mainstream large sedans discussion interesting, as the interior measurements of the Maxima are smaller than the Altima. Would love your perspective there.
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The TSX belongs here because, with the 6MT at least, it is arguably one of the sportiest, most fun-to-drive cars in this category. I actually think it epitomizes the ELLPS segment right now. If you've never driven it, you just cannot imagine how the numbers don't tell the story of how the sum is greater than the parts. I have driven very few cars where every part is in harmony with every other part. The engine, transmission, steering, switchgear, green house - it's just a joy to spend time with. It's not without faults, of course, but they disappear once you're rolling. It's like a symphony - seriously. I'll always remember mine as one of my favorites.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Personally, I'm not a big fan of them, but the upcoming 9-5 SportCombi is actually a decent-looking wagon.
IMO it's better-looking than the TSX wagon.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Consider:
A BMW 335i xDrive with options exceeds $55K.
An Audi A4 can exceed $51K.
A C-class (non-AMG) can also exceed $51K.
Granted, the base price starts higher than the others (at $38,525, according to their website) but it's relatively well-equipped.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
9-5 is too big and not entry-level.
I do have to say that of the current Acura line-up, the TSX is the only vehicle I could see getting and the only one that I could tolerate the shield grill on. Let's hope Acura gets rid of that styling choice in the next generations of their vehicles!
Still is for me -- the TSX manual is really fine. If the car put the power down via the rear wheels and had a 2 or 2.5 litre diesel I'd keep it until they put me in a home.
As it is, I still haven't seen anything I like enough better to go for it. A Jetta or Golf TDI are possibilities, but I really enjoy the stone solid reliability of a Honda product.
The transmission clicks nicely into each gear and is certainly the best one I've used since my MGB. Even though the B's tansmission lacked a synchronized first gear, the linkage had absolutely zero play in it and sat right on top of the transmission -- good times. The two Miatas and the 240Z I drove many miles had lots of good features, but the transmissions weren't the equal of the TSX or the B.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD