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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681's a little hard to compare a 98 A4 with even an 05 A4...model change in 02 then again in 05.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    These references to the Accord platform and Acura's not being a true sport sedan are baseless.

    So all those Audi A4's built on the Volkswagon B6 platform aren't sport sedans either?

    And I suppose the BMW 3-series isn't really a sport sedan because it shares a platform with an SUV and a FWD car?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,159's a little hard to compare a 98 A4 with even an 05 A4...model change in 02 then again in 05.

    I don't think the general characteristics between Acura and Audi (driving feel, interiors, costs, reliability) have changed in any fundamental way over the time period.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    I do...way back, I had a 97 A4 and it felt, drove, smelled...very differently from the 05's. Not vastly like going from a Hummer H1 to a Fiat 500...

    I originally intended to convey that a 05 TL should be compared to a 05 A4...even if the 'old' Audi was superior in specific categories.

    Reliability: Last time I compared JD Powers manufacturers reliability the "new" Audi's were on par (problems per 100 vehicles) with Toyota's from 5 years ago.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,276
    nyc.....interesting compare and contrast. My BMW does indeed drive better than my TL SH AWD. That said, the TL was no slouch. Neither were the TSX and RSX I had as loaners. Acura captures a good amount of the BMW feel.

    Also, little things I've noticed....the HVAC in my TL was better in getting to, and holding temps, hot or cold, with no "fried feet" or "frozen nose" affect.

    My 335i is fast....very fast....and will let me corner at any speed that my nerves will allow.

    Seats were better in the TL. If you care, the stereo in the TL was a big step up vs the one in my 3 (which is actually the upgraded Harmon Kardon stereo). I've driven a lot of premium cars. The stereo in the TL tech package surpasses all of them, by a pretty fair margin.

    Transmission (autos)....hands down better in the 3....which has one of the best I've ever experienced.

    Build quality, the BMW gets the nod. As good as Acura is (and Acura is very, very good), BMW is better with gaps, paint, etc.

    Reliability, hard to say, this is my 3rd BMW and I never had any issues with any of them. But, I've had 3 Acuras, too. Never had any issues with any of them, either.

    I know me, though. 3 years down the road, I'll be looking for something else.

    However, given what I'm hearing that 4 cyl (even with turbos) will be the calling card for BMW, I'd probably look elsewhere.

    I'm fearful powerful 6es, with turbos, gobs of torque everywhere, may not be in BMW's radar in a few years. Hope that's not the case, though.

    The motor in my 335i is one of the sweetest I've ever driven, as was the 3.7L in the TL.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • Still putting down Acuras but always inquiring about the next generation TL.
    Its either you love the brand or just shop somewhere else.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited September 2011
    . . .I can tell you that the Acura is not an Audi (DOH!) but as mine is equipped (2012 TL SH-AWD Advance Package), it is a capable car. Believable as an EL Luxury Performance Sedan -- totally believable. It would be more believeable if Acura had chosen the best available Ultra High Performance A/S shoes instead of the "OK" Goodyear RS-A's. My 2009 Audi A4 was special ordered with the sport package, which at the time included 19" 35 series Max Performance Dunlops, Sport Seats and 3 Spoke Sport steering wheel with paddle shifters, and a lowered and stiffened suspension. I also configured mine with a $3,000 option called Audi Drive Select which would actually further stiffen the ride via firming the shocks when you pressed Dynamic mode.

    I was given, many times, 2009, 2010 and 2011 A4 Premium Plus versions as loaners -- none of them had sport packages or Audi Drive Select.

    A new A4, even in Prestige dress (but without the sport package option or SLine and Audi Drive Select), feels softer and demonstrates greater body roll than my new TL. A new A4 minus the sport package lacks the bolstered seats (which the TL has) and any attempt to throw the car into curves causes your butt to slip slide away and the A4 in standard suspension trim demonstrates a fair amount of body roll. Meanwhile the TL grips you as you accelerate hard whilst in a corner and the torque vectoring makes the car damn near PIVOT through the corner.

    The TL is not an A4 and it is, duh, also not an S4. However when talking about these cars' abilities in the twisties, the TL behaves more like an A4 with the SLine or Sport Package and pulls hard enough to "allow you to imagine" IMAGINE you are feeling the urge that accompanies pressing the accelerator of an S4 way south. In other words, the TL is caught somewhere between an A4 2.0T Prestige with the Sport Package and Audi Drive Select and an S4 Prestige with the sport differential.

    Given a magic wand, I would have the S4 Prestige with ADS+Sport Diff -- in a hearbeat.

    But, without magic, the $12,000 difference (that the S4 commands) tends to change one's mind.

    This time, even the A4 2.0T Prestige w/Sport priced me out of the Audi market -- especially AFTER I had driven the TL Advance back to back with a 2011 A4 (which, admittedly did NOT have the sport package.)

    That it takes -- essentially -- a $50,000+ Audi A4 SLine (mine lacked SLine trim bits) to subjectively feel as performance oriented as the TL Advance, says SOMETHING about Acura -- yet, at this point in my experience (1,000 miles), I'm not exactly sure what that something is.

    The next gen TL is probably the one to make me a repeat and perhaps long-term believer or make me somehow pony up the coin for another Audi. :surprise:
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,081
    Not too sure what people in this forum have been smoking,why are you talking about a S4 and a Acura TL together??? Not even close in comparison...

    Not too sure even if I would compare the A4 to a TL since the TL is a bigger car with more interior volume.

    What I find interesting is, it appears Audi has dropped the sport package from the A4 line up, not too sure if that was a smart move for them.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,574
    markincincinnati & graphicguy

    Funny how the 3 of us are at opposite ends of the financial spectrum in our lives, yet have similar tastes & tolerances when it comes to cars.

    The seats in my TSX is one thing that I absolutely LOVE! They are thickly bolstered, firm, & super comfortable. They do a fantastic job keeping my narrow, 150 lb rear end from sliding around during aggressive handling maneuvers.

    The main thing that fueled the purchase of my TSX was fuel economy. Back in August 2009 I had a 1990 BMW 325i I bought about a year earlier that wouldn't pass NY state inspection & my trusted mechanic told me I should either find a new engine or start paying him to tear the car's Inline 6 apart to find out what was wrong.

    Cash 4 Clunkers came about and I realized my car qualified for a $3500 rebate. I was also going to need a car in the next year because the lease on our 2007 X3 was going to end & we were in danger of going way over our 45,000 allotted miles.

    So I wanted a car that drove great, had a roomy back seat (for our 2 child safety seats), & a generously sized trunk (to accommodate our double stroller).

    I headed straight to an Audi dealer to drive an A4 Avant. I drove a Premium model & thought it was OK, nothing special. I was also frightened at the prospect of owning an Audi for the long haul.

    I went an drove a Mini Cooper S Clubman which I didn't like. A very awkward car. Lots of blindspots. Lifeless and very disconnected electric power steering. Rubbery shifter. Clutch with a high take up point.

    I then stopped by an Acura dealer, drove the TSX & said to myself, I really like this car. It drives like a 4 door version of my 2001 Prelude Type SH. It is by no means perfect, but for the price, it rocks.

    I've got 2 sons (5 & 2 1/2) and a daughter on the way in early December. Cars are expensive (especially the ones I like). Right now I do too much driving (TSX is 2 years old & has over 40K, while Pilot is 4 months old with 7,000 miles) to lease. Leasing is also very expensive. Nor can I afford to buy cash & trade every 2-3 years.

    I plan to pay off my car loans in 5 years & keep them for at least 10 years (assuming no mechanical catastrophies or god forbid accidents) so we can (re)build our savings towards retirement & our Children's college educations.

    I've owned exclusively new cars since I got my license at 16 (besides my E30 BMW which was a project car). I love the way BMWs drive so much that if something happens to my Acura, I'd look for a CPO BMW 335 with the N55 in a heartbeat.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,276
    flightnurse....having test driven a couple of S4s, and having owned a TL SH AWD, I can honestly say that the TL SH AWD is closer to the S4 than Audi would care to admit. Then, there's the big price delta that you have to consider.

    Mark.....I did indeed find both the A4 (S-line) and S4 "softer" than the TL. Not that it's a bad thing....just something I noticed. I really loved the TL SH AWD's seats....some of the best in any car I've owned. They hold you well without cramping. Or, maybe my body type is best made for Acura's sport seats.

    NYC....IIRC, I think I've got a decade or so in age on you. However, I can see you going down my same car desire path. If you don't have any more children (go ahead, have a bunch more), you'll get out of the "I need a people hauler" mode and start bouncing around the top German and Japanese lux brands as your preferences.

    Don't see you in a Lexus. I can see you in a TL, or another 3, probably a 5er at some point.....maybe an A6. ;)
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118

    Graphicguy makes some good points. I'm about 10 years ahead of you too...

    My daughter will get her learner's permit next year and I've already started teaching her how to drive a stick on the weekends (yes, in the M3!). The family dynamic will change permanently when she starts driving.

    We got the V70 with 3rd row almost 8 years ago and it's been a great family hauler, but when my daughter starts driving, we have some choices to make. Keep the wagon and give it to her?

    Also, my wife hates the M3 - refuses to drive it except as a last resort. I've started thinking that it's selfish of me to keep it around if I'm the only one who is ever going to drive it. Plus, I have a company car for work, so I only drive the M on weekends or when the sun's out and I get a hankering. It sits in the garage with a trickle charger for most of the winter.

    So we could keep the Volvo and sell the M3. Let my daughter use the Volvo and get a 911 or 135i or something for me and my wife to share.

    We could sell the Volvo and the M3 and get a 135i plus a Subaru Outback.

    We could keep both the Volvo and the M3 and get a 3rd car like a Focus or Cruze for my daughter.

    Whatever we decide, there are definitely some confusing issues with the changing family dynamic and the car market. Cars are crazy expensive now and like you (and others here), the cars I like are expensive. I would rather not spend $50k on a car, but nothing I have looked at that I like costs less than $40k.

    I was a new car buyer for many years too, but since I started driving BMW's (my E30 325i was my first one 7 years ago), I can't help thinking there's no value in it. I might try a CPO car next to add some value to the process.

    Whatever we decide, trading and buying a new car every 3 years is definitely out. I love the fact that the Volvo is paid for and 8 years old, and my wife stills loves the car. The Volvo experience has taught me to buy the most car I can afford and keep it as long as possible.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,645
    I've pretty much given up on the idea of ever having a new car again, personally. And with as often as I trade, it is probably for the best anyway.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,081
    Interesting, having driven a couple of S4 myself and a new TL-SH AWD I thought the S4 was by far the better car, the Audi did not lean as much as the TL in corners and I thought the Quattro system was set up for more rear wheel bias then the Acrua. I also thought the Acrua didn't have the low end grunt that the Audi had too. However the looks of the Acrua even after a mid refresh to me is just ugly, its hard to beat the Audis in looks and overall design.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited September 2011
    Well, having driven both the S4 and the TL back to back, I can say they are close, if you don't consider the price -- the TL is, IMHO, kind of an Audi AS4, if such an animal actually was available from Audi.

    Of the Audi S4 and Acura TL, Automobile Magazine said:

    "If it seems like neither car can pull an advantage here without the other catching up, you've been paying attention. The final equalizer is that, comparably equipped, the Audi costs nearly $11,500 more than the Acura. That kind of money can buy the TL a serious brake upgrade. But the price difference isn't much of a factor here, since we've never actually heard of someone cross-shopping a TL and an S4."

    Well, I sorta did. . .

    "The Acura is blessed with nearly perfect cornering balance, so its rear differential can easily and dramatically alter the car's handling attitude. It takes a little while to build up trust in the system, but you soon realize that if the car can handle any amount of power in the middle of a turn, it can handle anything the V-6 can throw at it. There's no reason to be scared of the right pedal-the TL begs you to steer it with the throttle. The more power you add, the more neutral the TL's cornering balance and the faster it scrambles through turns. Indeed, the Acura was faster than the Audi through nearly every single corner at BeaveRun."

    And furthermore:

    "It's beside the point to declare a winner or loser when comparing two cars that fall into such different hands in the real world. As that most rabid of enthusiasts, you already have your own prejudices and opinions based on the brands alone, not to mention the countries from which they hail. If we could combine the Audi's good looks, brakes, and tupercharged V-6 with the Acura's steering, handling, and all-wheel-drive system, we'd have discovered luxury car nirvana for the enthusiast driver. In the absence of that elusive hybrid, we walk away from these two wolves in sheepish skins knowing that they are absolute equals in one way: the ability to reassure us that there is, in fact, life after Evo."


    0-60 mph: 5.0 sec
    0-100 mph: 11.5 sec
    0-110 mph: 13.5 sec
    0-120 mph: 16.4 sec
    0-130 mph: 19.7 sec
    0-140 mph: 23.4 sec
    0-150 mph: 28.6 sec
    1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 13.5 @ 110
    30-70 mph passing: 5.7 sec
    Peak g: 0.69 g


    0-60 mph: 5.4 sec
    0-100 mph: 13.5 sec
    0-110 mph: 16.3 sec
    0-120 mph: 20.5 sec
    0-130 mph: 24.9 sec
    0-140 mph: *
    0-150 mph: *
    1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 14.1 @ 102
    30-70 mph passing: 6.8 sec
    peak g: 0.66 g

    kliky here for the full deal: - di_s4/index.html

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,574
    Fedlawman - if for some reason you do have to part ways with your beloved E30 M3, I don't think a 135i is the car for you. Do yourself a favor & get a 911.

    BTW, speaking of women & M3s, I was pumping gas into my Pilot yesterday & a woman in her 50's pulls up next to me in a 1997 E36 M3 Sedan. 5 speed, Motorsport wheels. She gets out & I tell her I really like her car. She goes on to tell me she's the original owner & the car has over 200,000 miles on it. It has never once been in the shop for anything other than regular maintenance.

    Graphicguy - There is a saying, "Never say never.". I will never own a Lexus. We don't plan on having anymore kids. I know eventually I won't need a people mover.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,574
    I like your opinion on the Audi Drive Select. So you'd take a $50,000 A4 2.0T with Audi Drive Select (trick rear diff) over a $50,000 S4 without it?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2015 Infiniti Q40 AWD, 2017 Honda Pilot Touring AWD

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,299
    why are they baseless? just because it's got a Acura badge and not Honda does not make it a sports sedan - sporty 'er' yes. but same platform and drive train, so I don't get your point. the a4 and vw platform - well the current line of vw does not have quarto or 4 motion on the sedans. I would say that's a major difference. the 3 series comment now thats baseless.

    Billy until acura changes it's boring style they will continue to fail- the brand has lost significant share in the space . numbers don't lie.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I'm not talking about the badge on the hood.

    You haven't explained why you think the Accord platform is less suited to underpinning a sport sedan than the VW/Audi platform or the BMW 3-series platform.

    Is it not as rigid? Is the suspension geometry inferior?
  • flightnurseflightnurse 35K feetPosts: 2,081
    Platform and same engine doesn't equal same car.. The Acrua suspension is tuned for more sporty driving then the Accord. I would also suspect the Automatic in the Acrua is tuned for quicker shifts then the Accord.

    The Audi and VW platforms is what I just talked about might be some of the same but the tuning of the suspensions is completely different...

    Also the Leather in the Acura is a far better grade then that of the Accord.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "speaking of women & M3s, I was pumping gas into my Pilot yesterday & a woman in her 50's pulls up next to me in a 1997 E36 M3 Sedan"

    A few weeks ago, I was driving around town in my M3 and while sitting at a light, a middle-aged woman in an E28 M5 pulled up next to me. I rolled down my window and waved to get her attention, but her eyes were glued in front of her.

    We actually traveled down the road a few blocks in sight of each other and she never once made eye contact with me (and I was practically flailing my arms to get her attention).

    How is it possible to own a car like that and not notice a comrade-in-arms?!?!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    edited October 2011
    Short answer, no. At this point, an Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine with everything on it except ADS would be a great car. I have ADS, I have, currently both a 2009 A4 Prestige + Sport Pakage (that has ADS) and a 2012 Acura TL Advance.

    In 2009 but not in 2011 or 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige + Sport or SLine packages, I see less of a need for the $3,000 ADS option due to the fact that the new A4's can be had with an 8-speed tiptronic that comes with Sport Shift and in Sport Package or SLine configuration comes with a lowered sport suspension and sport seats and a sport steering wheel with paddle shifters.

    In other words, TODAY, I would not get an A4 2.0T Prestige + SLine, w/ 8 speed tiptronic and pony up for the ADS.

    Another reason I would not get this option today: on the A4, Torque Vectoring is not an option (yet). I would pay for the ADS -- on an A4 -- if it came with TV.

    The S4, at $50,000 is content poor compared with a $47K TL Advance -- but the S4 can be had with TV, under the name Sport Differential. I believe to get TV, however, one needs to buy ADS (on the S4.) The total additional cost to get both ADS+Sport Differential is, as I recall, about $4,500.

    The S4 I would want would have to be contented to the TL Advance level, and that requires that the S4 be configured NOT as a Premium Plus, but as a Prestige model.

    If you do all of this to an S4, its MSRP is some $12,000 more than the Acura TL Advance with backup sensors (which is how I have mine configured.)

    Now, having said all of this, I would rather have the S4 than the TL. Moreover, I would have, at the time, gone with a 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige+SLine without ADS, if the price on a 36 month lease was comparable to the Acura lease (the MSRP's would have been very close to each other so configured.)

    I should stipulate, that to save a bit, I would be fine with the A4 2.0T Prestige 8-speed tiptronic version with EITHER sport package or SLine, and I know the sport package would have been somewhat less money than SLine, which, for the price difference only includes trim differences not suspension or other performance inducing differences.

    In any case, my decision was not based on which car I thought was the best -- I went with the one (THIS TIME) that I thought was the BEST VALUE. The TL Advance (with the oddly optional back up sensors @ $725) filled that bill very nicely. My lease on the TL for 36 months was about $150 per month less than the lease on the Audi A4 (Prestige, Sport, etc, etc) for 42 months. At 36 months (apples to apples) the Audi was about $200 per month more than the TL which, although it ain't no Audi, is -- for $200 per month less -- a fine imitation.

    I've had 29 Audis, since 1977. I have been to the Ingolstadt factory for the how they build 'em tour, 6 times. I have participated in 4 Audi driving schools in Seefeld, Austria (and won one of them -- fastest time through the course.) I, for a number of years, would bleed little interconnected rings when cut. Audi of America sent me to St. Moritz along with 49 other of their "top 50" North American customers for the Audi sponsored women's downhill ski cup event.

    And, I bought one of the first A8's in 1997 (ordered in 1996 and waited 11 months) after Audi sent my dealership a Euro-spec A8 and asked the dealer to loan it to his top customers for 24 hours (undoubtedly a ploy to make the star struck customers order up a new A8 -- which I did.)

    If the above doesn't qualify me at some level to judge or at least opine about the differences and similarities between an Acura TL Advance and an Audi A4 or S4, I don't know what else does.

    If I could somehow have been convinced that the Audi was not just incrementally better than the Acura, but substantially better, I would have probably gone with the 2012 Audi A4 2.0T Prestige SLine w/8-speed tip. But after driving two Audis, an A4 and an S4 (2011's and the A4 did not have the sport package -- or SLine, and the S4 was what is simply called Premium Plus and it did NOT have the Sport Differential) then driving a Cadillac CTS/4 with the 19" wheel sport package (2011) and then the Acura TL Advance, I thought the Acura TL was most like an S4 than it was an A4 or a CTS.

    I also drove a Volvo S60 T6, an Infiniti G37X/S and an Infiniti M37X Premium+Tech, and an Acurca ZDX Tech. While my '09 A4 was in for service I also had been loaned a 2011 Audi A6 3.0T Premium Plus for a day.

    Every one of these cars were test driven (and I was video'd by my wife whilst I was driving and giving a running commentary) over the exact same route, the sound systems were tested with the exact same CD's/tunes (Wecome to the Machine, Pink Floyd; How Dare You, 10CC; and, New Frontier, Donald Fagen.)

    So, I offer up for your consideration: the Audi, Acura, Cadillac, Infiniti and Volvo are all great cars and more alike than different, generally speaking. I wouldn't kick any of them out of bed for eating crackers, and I'd even bring the crackers.

    You can argue that the Audi is the prettiest (which it is) and the Acura the ugliest (well, hell, that's true too -- even though it is less ugly for 2012), the Cadillac is the "blingy-est" (no doubt) and the Infiniti's remain the Japanese BMW's, while the Volvo is the most unexpected -- and delightful to drive -- car of the bunch.

    The Acura does excel in one area: it has the best damn factory sound system I have ever heard.

    And, for me, an almost S4 at the price of an Acura TL Advance SH-AWD, is a no-brainer.

    Drive it like you live -- I'll say it again, these are all very nice cars and all deserve your consideration if you are in the $40 - $50K market.

    I am, for the next two days driving a new Acura TSX which is the loaner car I was given while my TL has the back up sensors grafted to the rear bumper -- it too is a "nice car," but compared to the others in this Edmunds category, it seems like it is out of place, or perhaps, out of its class.

    That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,299
    your joking when you say the 3 or audi a4 platforms vs the one of the tsx... these cars were developed with autobahn in mind and driving at speeds over 100mph.. the accord was developed in japan and in no way claims to have any sporty intentions, its fwd and comes with a 4cy engine that pumps out 170lbs of torque. this is also the same engine (albeit tweeked) that honda puts in the crv and element.. honda sold millions of accords before the Tsx was even a thought in mister hondas head. Is it rigid, is the suspension geometry inferior?? your watching to many of those acura tsx wagon commercials..

    this is from wiki and i couldn't agree more

    "The Acura TSX has a narrow price elasticity, as the base model 4-cylinder TSX is considered a good deal for a luxury car, however higher trims (particularly the V6 powered models) are considered too expensive as they compete directly with sport luxury cars such as the Audi A4 and Infiniti G and Acura's own TL.[25]"

    nice rig - but not a sports sedan. but it is sporty, if i was looking for a new accord i would consider this instead. maybe we should consider moving sedan to another forum vs the accord v6 and sonata turbo, or maybe vs the ES 350.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    So a FWD 4 cyl Audi A4 is a sport sedan but the TSX isn't? So does the Audi qualify because it's German? Because it's engineered better?

    What about the VW Jetta? Is that sport sedan too?

    So the TSX is "sporty," but it's not a sport sedan because it isn't "developed with the Autobahn in mind?"

    Is any Honda designed for the Autobahn?

    This one?

    How about this one?

    I know this isn't...

    Here are a few pictures of me and my Accord mixing it up with real sport sedans a few years ago...

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,141
    edited October 2011
    . . . driving a new Acura TSX . . . it seems like it is out of place, or perhaps, out of its class.

    Nicely put, as always -- describes both my car and myself in just a few words.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,159
    I have owned both Audi and Acura. I tend to agree that for a big price, the Audi is generally a nicer car. But your post is biased based upon irrelevant criteria, IMHO.

    "Cars developed for the autobahn" - All of these car companies are selling worldwide and all need to meet various needs of different countries, whether that be suspension tuning or emissions or left/right side drive. Some Accords in fact are developed in the USA. Germans develop cars in the US, GM develops cars in Europe and China and Australia. It's quite simplistic to assume that parent country of origin = where the car is developed.

    "comes with a 4cy engine that pumps out 170lbs of torque" - seems to me that BMW and MB have plenty of 4 cyl engines in Europe (on the autobahn ;) ) and somehow that's ok.

    "The Acura TSX has a narrow price elasticity" - frankly, I don't see why price elasticity has ANYTHING to do with being a sports sedan, as if tacking on $10K to a price makes a non sports-sedan into one.

    Ultimately, a sports sedan shouldn't be about cachet, or where it was developed, or whether it is fwd or rwd or 4wd, or whether there is an autobahn or potholes nearby, or whether the platform is shared with economy cars, or whether the price is high or low or elastic or inelastic. What matters is how the car handles, how it feels, how well appointed it is. Given those criteria, Acuras are pretty close to a lot of the European offerings.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,299
    I love the illustrations but they prove little but you did point out that acura/honda did have a good past stable of sports cars but as you know the nsx hasnt been produced since 2005 the s2000 was 09... now given the fact that those 2 cars were rwd and were light weight and were great handlers - something the TL and TSX are not.
    - Is the A4 a sports sedan->- well thats a great question-- i think in 6speed form with the turbo and awd with the sports package it could be. but I think audi has moved the car into the mainstream to compete vs the TL's and ES's -but in the past with the 2.0 or 1.8 turbo and 6speed for sure it was. the s4/s5 for sure are. the newer car has put on some weight and to get an audi with fwd for me audi is stupid.

    the tsx is not sporty because of its platform as stated before --its an accord which is a great car but just not sporty.

    The jetta in standard for is not close to the TSX but in GLI form its more of a sportie sedan then the TSX-(plus its cheaper)- same amt of power.. both have put on weight, but the GLI would be a sportier option given the fact they offer a quick DSG transmission. Same one thats in the GTI. The Jetta R will offer the VR6 in 2012 and get to 60 in 5.5 seconds or about 2.2 seconds quicker then the manual tsx (which only 10% of buyers would get).
    funny you bring this up -- i leased a acura GS-R and in 2004 had to return it and i considered the TSX, which i liked in manual form ... but I drove the VR6 jetta gli and saved 4k.

    edmunds tests the gli vs the tsx... n-jetta-gli-comparison-test.html

    heres my favorite line "As much as we liked the refinement of the Acura, the GLI's performance makes it the better sport sedan"

    good read, eh - i like your passion but again i think we should move this car off the board..

    i love the track pixs but stay out of the left lane.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,299
    my post is based on the last 10 years of production. comparison test and sale numbers.

    "narrow price elasticity" that was from wiki and stated the v6 acura competes with cars that are considered more sporty options.. its says nothing of "tacking on" 10k and calling it more sporty.

    Ultimately, while i respect your opinion, its about what the experts recommend and what people buy as being a big decider on what a successful car-- and its a fact that acura has lost share to both bmw, audi and infiniti -- im glad you think that acura handles like the germans but the fact of the matter is the critics and car buyers dont care about the current line. Please get me a recent article where and acura product (NON SUV) has beat anyone (not named buick) in a comparison test. I think its great that people support the brand but the brand has gotten old and its roots of the great NSx, LEGEND, AND INtegra GS_R are forgotten in this current line of cars.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    edited October 2011
    You and I fundamentally think differently about cars.

    In my opinion, a sports car is a sports car based on its DNA, not it's horsepower or amount of traction or it's pedigree.

    I don't believe that the base A4 (a regular car) magically becomes a sports car because you increase the horsepower or add traction. I don't agree that the "regular" Jetta is a family car and the GLI is a sport sedan.

    Does the Mini require a supercharger to be considered a sports car?

    None of the cars in this segment are "sports cars." At best, the sportiest of the bunch is a sporty Grand Tourer. The point is that all of the cars in this segment (including the TSX) are cut from the same cloth. That is, they are cars designed to offer a degree of performance and luxury above the common family car.

    And to meet you halfway, I'll even say that the TSX with automatic transmission is questionable as a ELLPS. The TSX's saving grace is how the entire driving experience is utterly transformed when equipped with the 6MT.

    I've said it before - the only people who don't think the TSX is a sport sedan (in the ELLPS context) are people who haven't really driven a 6MT TSX.

    Around Pacific Raceways, my old TSX was every bit as capable as the BMW 325i's sharing the track with me. It was a joy to drive fast, which is the ultimate test of a sport sedan.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,299
    I guess Your right a sports car should weigh 3500-4000 lbs and have less the 200 hp and fwd. - the tsx is a sporty car when it's paired with the 6 speed.
    I drive the 04 tsx and it has the best manual transmission in the segment by far but it's not fast, it handles good for a front driver but it's not a sports car. And the fact that the current acura sales demographic is closer to Buick then BMW. Now i agree that a true sports sedan has prob died due to current weight of the group we speak of.

    Now for you to disagree with me is fine but what about the edmunds article that declared the jetta gli better then your tsx ? And you are right your tsx could stay with a 325 but the current tsx could not stay with the current 328 and I think that's my point, current Acura models just can't compete because they never evolve.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,159
    Since when does the buying demographic have anything to do with how sporty a car is? I see a lot of irrelevance in the arguments. Perhaps some cars don't have "sports car carpet" either LOL!
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