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I think CR and even JD Powers is about as good as we can get trying to determine reliability.
Which isn't very good...
Let's say you have two cars MB E class and Kia Rio. I would suspect that if both experience 5 minor problems that Mr E class would note every single one. There is an expectation that once you spend a certain amount that everything should be working correctly (I also subscribe to this theory). The Rio guy didn't see the, fictional, power window switch not working as a problem...because hey...it didn't leave me stranded...and they fixed it under warranty.
I would also suspect that once you start adding in "free" maintenance it skews the results.
Then I have my couch theory that relates to demographics. Give the same couch to college dudes and grandma. After 3 years which couch is more "reliable". What if grandma's really liked a particular couch (wonder why Buick is so high on JD Powers...). Or why, for some reason, the Lexus GS and IS had worse than their "normal" reliability rating; answer: because they sell those to people like me (drive it like you stole it).
Speaking of JD Powers. A while ago I compared the long term reliability from two separate periods. Conclusion: A new Audi is as reliable as a Toyota from 5 years ago...the new Toyota is even more reliable...but if 5 years ago you were "happy" with the number of problems per 100 vehicles...you could justify a new Audi
Oh well, this discussion has strayed way off topic and I'm sure people want to move on.
Actually, they potentially could, very much so. It is a game of expectations. Doesn't mean this is the only variable, but it is important one, often not taken into account.
I would add, I don't care much for JP Powers' methodology. There were several times, when I read results of their surveys vs. what I knew about the car, it became evident to me there is a lot pretending there. Case in point - Subaru Legacy. Since 2005, it had three distinct levels of trim with totally different engine performance. While standard four cylinder is so-so, the GT trim turbo is a beast, one of the fastest in the group. Yet, JP Powers would allow you to choose specifically "GT" trim and would still assign lower than average acceleration to it. I suspect, the surveys were not properly sorted, there was probably not enough data for separate GT trim, but JP Powers would not admit that - they'd rather give you garbage data based on averaged low-end trim line and pretend it also pertained to the higher one. Once I discovered that, it became clear to me these guys know much less than they are pretending to do.
Not to mention their choices for categories, like "harsh ride" somehow becomes part of a "quality" in their "initial" or "long term" quality studies. Pure ignorance taken to extreme.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It's anythiing but a statistically-valid survey, but no one seems to care, and here we are.
Plus which, a flaw that causes the car to stop running isn't differentiated from one that's an inconvenience or a minor annoyance in a system that 99% continues to function.
The design of the current benz doesn't do it for me, however it is typical german in its design, something that BMW and AUDI are not. We all have our likes and dislikes, this is what makes the world go around.
FN
Not that that is bad. But American buyers, imo, expect the dealers to walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to luxury vehicles.
I'm not sure I would be happy to have these service guys drive my car back and forth the dealership. My ex-BMW dealer had that option, but I decided not to avail myself of that particular service.
(not directed at host) I love when people argue about what Consumers are saying about the BMw - mind you these are people who bought (or leased) a car and are just posting an opinion so other consumers know what to expect. Toyota argument - nice try but really?
much better than working the front door at Walmart.
Actually, all the shuttle van drivers at my Honda dealer are retired gents that do it for pocket money (or to get away from their wife!)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I want to thank the gentleman pictured with me who took such good care of my car for the past 17 years.
And yes, the E30 will be parked next to it in about 2 weeks! Talk about clouds with silver linings...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
1995 C4. One owner local car.
Funny, it just occurred to me - I got both the 911 and the 318ic for about the cost of a base 328i...
I'm starting to dip into my BMW's performance potential. First and foremost I'm so impressed with how well the chassis is balanced. It pours itself around curves. The entire car is very fluid.
I used to say that I'd only want a RWD 3 series with a Sport Pkg & frowned upon BMW for only offering a cosmetic sport package with AWD. Not anymore. I'm so happy with how well my 328xi drives. I don't feel the need for anything sharper & a bit lighter (Sport Pkg & RWD). I don't feel the need or want for anymore power.
When I drive a car, I always try to pick a theme song for it. Something that suits the car perfectly. My Prelude's theme is "Sunshine of Your Love" by Cream.
For my 328xi, since I'm leasing it and have to give it back in 2 1/2 years, I picked "Stay With Me" by Faces. "Yeah I'll pay your cab fare home, you can even use my best cologne, just don't be here in the morning when I wake up."
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I'd bet if I wanted my BMW or Acura sales person to bring a new car to my home for me to test drive, they'd do it.
Mine mirrors yours, but I'd add a Ford GT, a 12 cyl BMW 8 series and an Alpina, a'56 Chrysler New Yorker (my favorite '50s era American style), any Ferrari, a Jag XKE V12.
Drove a linggenfelter (sp?) corvette a friend was trying to sell me a couple of years ago. That was a wickec piece.
As crude as they are, I've always wanted a Corvette. My Dad has a '66 427 Roadster rotting in his garage, so Vette ownership is in my DNA;)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
lingenfelter builds some insane car's which I have to wonder are they really streetable cars. I was also impressed with my vette, I was getting a steady 28 on the highway with it, and I was doing 75.
Regarding the Alpina, BMW sells a B7, insane car for the price tag, I like that they build it on the standard wheelbase 7 Series, but I would like a B5.
NYC - it has 80,000 miles. Bought new by a local dentist in 1995 for $70,000 and maintained superbly it's entire life. He just bought a new Audi S5 - 4 cars and a 3 car garage meant one had to go. He's getting older and wasn't driving the Porsche much anymore so he decided to sell it.
I found the car hiding in a local Craigslist listing. Just 2 pictures and a fair asking price. I called him and after he told me about the car, I knew it was the one. When I took delivery, we posed for pictures together and he told me that if anything didn't meet my satisfaction, he'd buy it back from me. He even called me the next day to see how I liked it and to tell me he's glad that I bought it and that it went to a good home.
It's a beauty. I drove it to Bainbridge Island today with the kids and it is TIGHT. There is absolutley no slack in the steering or driveline, the engine and transmission are super smooth, the body and suspension are tight - it really looks and drives like a new car.
Just for the record, you are killing me.... LOL
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From a purely statistical basis, I agree with this statement.
Still, CR survey is self selected from subscribers, right? But can anybody tell me why self selection would skew, to any great degree, the results of whether GM or BMW or Ford or etc. would show better/worse reliability than other makes? In other words, why WOULD self selected subscribers cause certain makes to fare better or worse?
I suspect that the CR results are pretty close to valid in spite of the methodological flaws. Just saying they're not statistically valid doesn't say why the results would balance out substantially differently than otherwise.
If I had listened to my mom, I would be a doctor today and could have afforded a new one...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The flaw in your argument is you get to the chicken before you get to the egg.
The CR data is based on real-world user experiences. Honda was at the top for a long time because Honda was making bulletproof vehicles for a long time. Toyota was at the top for the same reason.
I've found the CR data to be pinpoint accurate down to the smallest details with every car I've owned. They are not influenced by advertising and hence, their reviews don't read like a cheerleader's salespitch. Often, I find sources with advertising to sound as if they are getting more than monetary benefits, maybe sexual as well! :P They are just too RAH RAH, and positive for my tastes. I'll take CR anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
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You are probably right with JD Powers, but they are just an advertisement to the highest bidder anyway, and I'm sure they skew their data as such.
With CR... you get major and minor issues separated, such as "Engine - Minor" and "Engine - Major."
A Fantastic system if I do say so myself.
S are On guard after one mention of a bad review. To start the argument with the Toyota stuff was terrible - but to go after consumers (of said cars) and call into question the validity of such survey without any real proof of wrongdoing is crazy. The mag has been around since the 30's and has 7m paid subscribers - its not some Mickey Mouse organization.
In fact... some BMW lovers (since some say BMW lovers would never read CR), should know that some BMW's score quite well when it comes to quality and value (in the 90's even score wise). It's just when it comes to reliablity that they can be spotty at best.
Audi isn't perfect, but their trend is for reliability to generally improve over the last 10 years, moreso than BMW.
I can totally understand getting a fun to drive vehicle despite some reliability flaws. I can't understand the argument that because a car costs 1/2 as much it should be half as reliable (or expectations as such should be lower).
If I pay 1/2 as much I'd expect my HP and Torque, comfort, luxury to be halved, but not the reliability. If the performance was half, and the reliability was also half, then I'd expect the price to be 1/2 x 1/2 which equals 1/4!
I've discovered DS mode in the transmission. It should be explained very simply in the owner's manual:
Slap shifter to left, Plant right foot, Smile
The throttle mapping is much more responsive. The car feels even more alive!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
But, but, but... Isn't your car AWD? :confuse:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2018 430i Gran Coupe
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I don't think it's a conspiracy (unlike the president's b-certificate ) but I think it leads to generalizations regarding an entire manufacturer. I originally speculated that demographics (another generalization too) play a large part in the CR results (couch theory).
I find it -reasonable- to assume Buick has a high reliability ranking because 'old' people aren't tearing it up like a younger person would; same with Lexus.
Of course, in my case, a long time ago I had -acceptable- reliability from my Honda Civic, even though I kept that thing over 5k rpm all day...so that may prove the point that Honda is making extraordinary reliable vehicles.
My IS350 isn't *super* reliable. My previous cars...my Honda wasn't as reliable as my Audi. Looking at CR...the Audi should loose that comparison every time.
I overheard (eaves-dropped) the lady across the hall saying "my car's a Honda so it'll last forever". I thought "really? I could break it pretty quick". But she heard form them/they that is is reliable.
As a disclaimer...I also listened to them/they when I decided on my CPO IS350 over a 335 (didn't want to deal with potential problems of a German car). If I had the few problem in a 335 I've had in my IS350 I would have thought "see...those German cars break down, they were right"
I think CR has a sample size a little larger than ONE. If two other peope had Audis that had more problems than your Honda would you then accept as fact that the Honda was more reliable. It's twice the sample size yours is. People do get lemons or plums and that is why a survey of several hundred or even thousands is a better indicator than your admitted speculations. Did the lady across the hall have a copy of CR in her hand? Would have made your story even funnier.
____>>>>>>>>>>)))))))))
I don't agree with those presumptions though. A decently made vehicle will stay in one piece whether you drive it like grandpa or you drive it like you stole it (as long as you maintain it properly). For instance.... My '95 Neon fell apart when it was babied, and it tore apart equally as bad when I drove it like a teenager should (:P).
My friend of the same age literally raped his '95 Geo Prism (a Corolla under the emblem) day after day, from birth until he sold it at over 100K miles. While he treated his Corolla at least 10X harsher than I treated my Neon, I needed 4 tow trucks in 65K miles while his car needed zero in over 100K miles. He had zero mechanical issues (someone did break off his rearview mirror though (but that's rough housing negligence, not the cars fault).
With rev limiters in Automatics... if the car can't be driven like it can be driven, then maybe the manufacturer should move the red line to 2,500 RPM???? I can't imagine any kind of driving style (short of willful attempts to destruct) hampering the life of a well made vehicle (accidents excluded).
In conclusion if a car self destructs just because you don't drive it like someone over 65, then that car should be labeled as a disposable vehicle. Like a BIC disposable razor. Planned obsolesense?
Another example, I've tracked my A3 several times (and driven it way harder in general than any other car I've owned, including the Neon as a Teenager). The A3 has been fairly reliable almost to the level of the Honda I owned for 65K miles (which was far from perfect, but very good; I blame Ohians for most of the issues). None of the issues with my A3 that have hit my pocket book could really be reasonably attributed to driving it "hard," other than routine maintenance items like Brake pads, rotors, and tires. Costs in those areas are high when you drive it like it was MEANT to be driven.
P.S. It wouldn't suprise me that much if an Audi made post 2000 was more reliable than a Honda made post 2007. Was the Honda made in the USA?; even less surprising then. Now if your Honda was made in Japan, and the Audi beat it... congratulations to Audi! But Audi is reliable enough for the last 10 to 12 years that any one good one could perhaps beat a bad Honda by a bit.