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In addition to the items you listed it also has the better warranty and is a luxury brand (in her eyes). The TL does seem like a bargain if you don't mind the styling (looks 'ok' to me).
Going -used- throws a bunch of variables into the mix and it is not really apples to apples.
Perhaps you should amend that by adding . . .that they would export to the US (and probably some other regions as well.) Although my last visit to Germany was in 2006, I have been there about 25 times and several times I have rented (from Avis or Hertz, etc) cars for part of my time in Europe -- primarily so that I can drive on the Autobahn.
Audi, BMW and Mercedes alike make and sell many "no frills" vehicles and versions of the cars we get here in the US that are way way down scale in features, functions, content and performance.
Many European taxis are base-r than basic German cars -- no carpet, plastic seats, no "glintzy" trim bits puny, puny powerplants -- and completely devoid of any kind of bling or high-end pretense.
It seems to me that there is room for these "high end" [German] manufacturers to bring all kinds of higher end and lower end products to the US. In fact it is probably quite easy to bring out less expensive versions of our market (i.e., premium) Audis, BMWs and Mercedes across the board (within reason, of course).
Moreover, it seems folks will, given the choice and a way to justify the cost, always take the Acura over the Honda, the Audi over the VW, the Lexus over the Toyota and the Infiniti over the Nissan (to name a few.)
And, unless the manufacturer is so stupid as to not differentiate between the Lexus and the Toyota, there will be a very noticeable difference between the pedestrian and the sublime versions.
I think gone are the days where the emperor truly had no clothes -- today there is a wide margin between the Chevy Impala and the Cadillac XTS -- and the price reflects the difference (and perhaps OVER reflects it, to be fair and balanced.)
The VW Quantum and the Audi 4000 (remember when?) were much more like fraternal twins then than any more recent models.
You may believe (and I typically agree) that the Infiniti isn't worth the uptick in price over a "similar" Nissan, but the Infiniti (or whatever you're on about) is different, more -- and most pros and amateurs alike would say "better."
There is an apropos phrase that mostly fits here: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. . . ."
Now of course I could be wrong (but not uncertain) -- but if I am wrong, then by this time next year we'll ALL be buying and driving KIA Cadenza's -- 'cause lordy lordy there ain't nuttin' that even comes close to this puppy at any price.
I have been, more than once, unable to afford the "better car" (I'm driving a freakin' Acura TL for pity's sake -- after years of only having Audis -- I am living proof!) -- but I never stopped thinking the car I had to pass on (due to my financial circumstances) wasn't worth its asking price.
I'm already counting down the days until I will return to my favorite German car dealership (and, to be fair, I will also check out what Acura and Infiniti are offering up at the moment of truth). We all rationalize -- or at least most of us do; but it is unlikely that a fine high-zoot German sedan will seem similar to even the best Mazda 6. We tell ourselves that the Mazda is just as good (or close enough) as the German (or whatever premium car is your first love) offering to rationalize our choices.
I could live with an Acura TL -- if I have to -- for years, they are very good cars and good values (and they seem durable as all get out). But, if I am in a position to return to the REAL Premium brands (and you know who they are), I'll do so in a New York Minute.
Drive it like you live.
Is the Audi a nice car? Absolutely. I've rented plenty of VWs when I travel. I can see there are more premium bits in the Audi than there are in the VW. I also see the things that are the same.
Personally, I'll never again take for granted what the Japanese Premium Brands excel in....that is reliability, longevity, brick like build quality. Those things do indeed matter....a lot.
Of course this little diatribe comes hot on the heels of picking up my allegedly repaired S4 this a.m at 7:30 a.m. There was a littany of things the dealer did. None of them fixed the problem (as I learned when I got half way home), and now they've introduced some squeaks and rattles into my console area (supposedly caused by removing and replacing the MMI). Quattro is still "binding", but not as much as before.
So, either live with it. Or, keep schlepping it to the dealer.
Generally speaking you did take my message as I meant it. My thoughts, however, regarding the status of the cars would be to call the VW the pedestrian vehicle -- the Acura and Infiniti are, to me at least, still in a "class" that is above the pedestrian Honda and Nissan.
I had an S6 a few years back and I loved it -- yet it too spent too much time in the dealership's repair bay.
But I have not had what I would call a totally confidence inspiring experience with my Acura. My issues with my Acura TL SH-AWD are -- if I am able to pull the emotion out of the equation -- dealer related.
As either an anecdote or a data point -- you decide -- I complained at the first oil change (about 8,000 miles) that there was a noise and sensation that I believed to be warped brake rotors. Every time I touched the brakes at highway speeds there was a "shudder" and vibration that felt like warped rotors or wheels that needed balancing.
The dealership decided to "turn the brakes" -- in fact they did this exercise two times (to no avail.)
I went to another Acura dealership -- one that has no connection with or to a Honda dealership and their diagnosis was that I had 3 warped wheels (they said they were "bent".)
Acura corporate said, "your fault -- or at least not OUR fault." But, the dealership (the second dealer, that is) appeared to go to bat for me and was able to get 3 new wheels at 50% of the SRP. This cure for the issue happened around 25,000 miles. Of course the "overall" safe/smart/prudent thing to do was to replace all four tires, too (at a cost of about $1,000 from the tire rack.) I also had the new wheels and tires road force balanced -- at a slight discount (at the dealership.) This cure cost about $2K, plus I had the displeasure of driving over 20,000 miles with what felt like warped brake discs.
Otherwise the car has been and my sense is, will remain, both reliable and durable -- but I just can't shake the [emotional, probably] sense that my Acura has (for wont of a better term) "too much Honda" in it.
I'd take the S4 any day. Now, I know or at least I think I know what you're thinking: The S4 could be nearly $20K more than the TL -- and typically would be at least $10K more (my TL had back up sensors and other Acura accessories on it for a total MSRP of a bit south of $48K.)
You've had either a bad S4 or an unsatisfying dealer experience -- or both.
Generally speaking I would think both of our experiences have been -- for the respective brands we're talking about -- way below our expectations. Everyone I know of says Hondas, er, Acuras are easily good to go for at least 150K -- with only routine mntce.
Audis, of recent vintage are, typically, also reliable and durable -- and return much more driving pleasure than competing Acuras.
But please note that my "short list" when the time comes, in about 11 months, will contain Audi, Acura, Infiniti and probably Volvo. I may even give another look-see at a BMW (probably not, though.)
I may fall victim to the most "bang for the buck" car -- which could turn out to be another Acura TL or TLX (or whatever they call it at the time). Right now it seems to me that something like a Q5 with the supercharged engine is a cross between an A4 allroad and an S4 -- for less money (when well equipped) than either of the other 2 Audis.
I hope someone from Audi reads these posts. Were I in that position (a paid forum reader of our rants and raves) I would certainly try to reach out to you "from the factory" and make your situation right -- if for no other reason than to turn you into a brand fan, instead of a brand foe.
I still say it is easier to pay too little and regret it than pay what seems to be a bit too much (at the time) and love it.
Good luck with your dealership.
If I'm going to spend a large amount of money, Audi or anyone else better believe I'm going to be picky what my money goes towards; so a custom order seemed like the only option to me. Thankfully, Audi still makes enough options stand-alone that you can get it just right! Acura groups too much junk together.
I will admit however, even with the Pro's of having 3 months longer with an old "cheap" car to shore up the finances, the con's are I'm anxious and can't wait to get my hands on the new S4! I can see why people without strong will power or color preference just have to have something right now, today! Turns out Escondido dealer only needed $1K down (SD Audi wanted $2,500 down), I emailed my offer to SD Audi, and about 22.5 hours later, without a response, I decided to extend same offer to Escondido Audi in person, and they jumped for it (after a couple of attempts to get me to go up).
I feel just a tad bit bad as the sale-person that helped me previously at SD Audi said they were with clients all day long and just didn't get to my e-mail until after 5. I had assumed and figured the sales manager was mulling/balking over my offer for too long. Probably in hind sight I should have called to make the offer and/or confirm she got the email. However, I'm sure she will learn not to ignore e-mails; it could be an offer to buy!
Audi Club North America members in good standing also get the same supplier 6% discount. That's a very good deal! It's well below Edmund's TMV of average transaction prices for the S4. However, I needed a GREAT deal in order to go new. With the "fancier" leather, I was over my stretched $50K threshold (before taxes), without it, I met my price target. So my offer was $850 below the 6% discount. Probably around 6.4%? I didn't do the math exactly. My A3 ownership also gives me $1,000 loyalty rebate back on the back end after taxes as well. In CA, sales tax is ridiculous so figuring 10% for tax, title, license, and fees is about right I'm told.
2014 S4 has Audi Drive Select standard, in exchange for raising the MSRP $500 bucks from 2013. The Sport Diff option went down $150 from 2013 probably because Drive Select is already on the car. I told them the price increase wasn't my fault, I'm sticking to my offer at $50,000.
Maybe I accidentally clicked on a 328i when I equipped it for $45K (or maybe I was looking at Invoice price on 335i)?
I liked the power in the '09 335i sport package sedan (the drive, not really the interior), and if it wasn't for the brakes locking up, I might have liked it enough to buy it (and it had shameful All-Season tires). Carmax lowered the price on it to make up for the bad tire selection I see... tempting... ..
It had a heavy effort filled steering similar to the '11 S4 I test drove, which I liked on both. I have to admit, I preferred the higher effort steering in the older S4 to the '13 S4 I test drove (not a deal breaker though; just a preference). In 2013 they went electromechanical steering supposedly for efficiency. Since the gas mileage didn't change, I can only assume it made a .5 MPG impact or less and rounding variance didn't help them.
I have a thing for nice steering wheels. As much as I loved the old steering wheel in the Audi's, the new '13/'14 version is even nicer! I didn't think Audi could top the previous version, but they did!
They did bring out a used '11 S4 that they claimed was sold, but since it hadn't been paid for, it was technically not sold until tomorrow, and I could "steal" it, if I wished. It was the only used S4 they had.
If looks and style don't matter to someone (or your tastes just differ), the TL is definitely a value bargain buy right now.
If Audi rejected my $50K offer (not including fees/taxes) after trying at like 5 dealers, I'd of probably offered Acura $40K out the door on a TL-SH AWD Tech (37,500 + taxes - 1,500 conquest rebate). About 2K below TMV, not sure if that would have flied?
As the most recent cross shopper of the TL-SH AWD vs. S4 here on this board and forum, I can say that I couldn't justify a full $15K delta, but close to it seemed rational to me. That is why I needed to get Audi to agree to an offer that kept the S4 within that $15K delta with the Acura (assuming TMV best deal on Acura).
Nah, I wont amend what I wrote, since I wasn't talking about what could be had in Europe, v. here. We know that BMW build a 316i gasser stripped...
I was talking about allow us as in the US, to be able to build a true sport sedan. The current M sport package is a start, but I'm more talking about like the ZPH package that I had in my 330i, close ratio transmission, higher revving engine, more HP, better suspension bigger rims and tires. Allow us to order a 335i with a ZPH package. No leather, No Nav, no Sunroof, no power windows, increase HP to 320hp and have the price at 46K. So the same thing with the 328i, have price aat 36K or so. Bring back the true sport sedan, Do not allow it to come with an Auto or is it does make a DSG type in the M3... You can still sell the yuppie cars but do not discard the people wanting a true sport sedan.
Presto! 320 HP!!
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The "is" trim is usually a mid-cycle refresh gimmick to maintain sales and buzz on models that are no longer "all new", to keep them running. IIRC, it wasn't available on the new platform with 330i right away, either. Then when they brought the turbo six engine (335i), it wasn't there either until some time has passed. If the patterns were to repeat, we should see (hopefully) some "is" trims available on the new F30 platform, as the novelty wears off. It (the novelty) already has passed for sedans, but you still have brand new wagon, GT, 328 diesel, 320, the 4-series coupe coming just in 2013, /2014 season. The convertible is next, I'm sure. Once the entire lineup is complete, the sedan will come with a refreshed look, as it always does and some additional stuff, to keep the interest and push early lessee adopters from 2012 to getting into 2015/16. I think that would be a perfect time for them to introduce the "is" trim on F3x lineup.
All manufacturers try to spoonfeed their new stuff, so there is always something to talk about. BMW actually brought a lot of new models this year, so they'll wait with incremental improvements until they see buzz dying off.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Presto! 320 HP!![/i]
Yep....sure did.
I still think BMW is underrating that 3.0 twin scroll turbo motor....just like Audi is doing with their S/C 3.0.
Both are putting out more power than they officially publish.
Presto! 320 HP!!"
Didn't Graphic have the 335is which had the 320hp engine?
So, BMW has the "is" model which comes with performance improvements already, however, there is a price to pay for that too!!
adnres....good deal on the S4. I might have missed it, but have you already bought it? Or, are you just working on the "deal"?
Mark.....don't disagree with any of what you have to say. If I were in the market for an SUV, the Q5 would be at the top of the list.
That said, I tcompare the two Audi dealerships in my 'burg to my BMW dealership, and there's a night and day difference with the advantage going to BMW. Even when I had my Acura, my preferred dealer took very good care of me.
As I mentioned previously, it might have been because I bought my S4 in Chicago and am having it serviced in Cincinnati. But, I really don't buy into a dealership treating you better if you buy the car from them. Warranty work is paid the same regardless. And, let's face it, service work has a whole lot more margin than new car sales.
I think the training, the time spent understanding the cars, the amount of time spent daily focused on customer service (or lack thereof) becomes evident in the way they take care of your problems.
Your Acura dealership experience would have prompted me to send a strongly worded letter to Acura corporate. Your car is what? A year old? And already has warped rotors? I call that a defect in materials and covered under warranty. It's not like you have 50K miles on one set of pads which are totally worn away.
If the sedan 335 had been available in 'iS' form
that is what I would have chosen in 2011.
- Ray
Turned mine in recently & walked away from the brand..
that pushed my over the edge...
- Ray
TQ addict...
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Don't forget the door handles and mirrors too...
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If one is looking for a badge at a low price, 320 is their choice, no need to go higher. This leaves 328 for buyers who like those options, like better seats (Sport/M-Sport) and/or interior inlays (Lux) and are able/not mind paying. I think over time the trend will be more pronounced as 320 replaces entry 328 trims. There will probably be fewer overall 328 in dealers inventories and their volumes will go down as a result of higher option levels.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Is this a problem?
Until the car is delivered and we do all the paperwork, I suppose it's not technically purchased or sold.
Of course, I'm not walking away from $1,000. Another dealer wanted a more serious $2,500 non-refundable down for an ordered S4.
I have to admit I'd of been more comfortable had the dealer given me a "buy-order sheet" with all the numbers listed. I suppose they can't control what sales tax might be 3 months from now. The $50,000 + fees figure is written down.
Also, he says the loyalty rebate comes from Audi of America at delivery; not from the dealer, and is a good program through 1/7/14. That gives a nice buffer should my order be delayed; all hell would break loose should they terminate that loyalty rebate early or deliver the car after that date (and the program not extended).
They must have received a bad batch of rotors from someone.
Have to admit, that knowledge helped tilt the scales in favor of the S4 over the TL-SH AWD. It wasn't a game changer, but when your on the fence, every little bit helps.
With my first luxury dealership servicing experience with Audi (they used to give free maintenance for 50K miles), I feel as if problems on a luxury car are not nearly as big of a deal. If they give you a nice loaner car, it makes it even less troublesome. I look at the bright side; you get a chance to wear and tear there car's rather than your own. No miles on your own car while they work on it makes me feel like I'm in no hurry. Of course, my longest repair job came when I got an A4 loaner, which wasn't typical at my old Audi dealership. I have a feeling that's why Miramar Audi is now know as Audi of San Diego and under different ownership. I ratted them out on customer service Audi surveys as routinely giving Enterprise Kia Sephias and Chevy Aveo's instead of Audi or VW's.
Drive it like you stole it! Heard they gave you a A6 with the sweet 3.0?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Rotor warping is a common problem for all sorts of modern automobiles, I've experienced it with nearly every car I've owned including a couple of Hondas and a couple of Audi A4s. FWIW it has only occurred once or twice in the dozen years I've had my 528i (now over 150K) nor did it happen much on the 3 Saabs I've had.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
However, I'd pay at least 10X that amount for a front facing dash cam that records potential litigation and insurance claim issues. Or simply to send the local PD some video of really bad drivers they really need to take off the road (and do something productive rather than ticket perfectly safe driving speeders).
Test drove a new Bimmer X3 with their version of the all around view monitor -- it was quite nice, too. Really helps in tight parking garages and it backing out of long driveways.
I mean a back up camera is useful when the program draws lines on the screen that turn with the steering wheel which makes backing up into a parking space while turning like a video game. I don't back up into parking spaces all too often though.
Still, I've done fine for nearly 20 years without it.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
It reminds me of a company in my industry that suffered a fire at their main factory. They had plans of implementing a new manufacturing IT system around the same time. They rebuilt the factory and implemented the new system concurrently. Needless to say it took them close to a year to get things running smoothly.
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I absolutely don't think so, and would be 100% against that. 100% option availability is OK. Those that want to increase the weight (which reduces gas mileage by the way) and add cameras, computers, wiring, cabling, and monitors to their cars, by all means do so and pay for it.
But it should not be forced upon those that don't want or need it.
We are beginning to make cars so safe no one can afford to buy one anymore.
A mainstream sedan that sells very well, is putting them as standard equipment - nuff said
ABS has been used countless times though; sometimes just for fun in an empty parking lot.
The Accord does have backup camera as standard now, but the 2013 is a new feature-laden model from Honda.
I actually considered the Accord Sport and the S4 lately. I could order the S4 without a backup camera, and did so. Not that the camera was the deciding factor, but I appreciated not being forced into it by Audi. Audi got my money; Honda didn't; nuff said.