DC sells twice as many minivans as Odyssey and Sienna combined. Toyota and Honda probably sell twice as many Camrys and Accords than # 3 and # 4 combined.
IF DC is the McDonald's of minivans, the Camry and Accord are the McDonald's of sedans.
On the other hand, IF the Camry and Accord sell more sedans because they meet more people's needs, the same holds true for DC minivans.
DC minivans meet more people's needs than twice the number of Odysseys and Siennas combined. :shades:
I remeber that time and I almost pull the trigger on a 04 ody ex for about $24k (invoice + dest) and don't forget the killer lease ($249/mo for 24 mos with $0 down). But then i weighted the fact that the additional content of the 05 would be at least worth the extra $2k and the sienna should balance out the demand for ody and another choice for me. So i waited and glad i did.
I believe the vehicle you mentioned above is the lx model, I remember it could be had for under $22k at that time. If it were up to me, i would've have gotten a 05 mpv lx with all the doodads for under $21k
And who rents minivans? Rental agencies buy vehicles that PEOPLE want to drive. My friend recently rented a T&C one week and then a Freestar the next. He and his wife preferred the T&C which he said was quieter, drove more nicely, and performed better going up the hills of southeastern Wyoming from Denver.
So what are the RENTAL AGENCIES supposed to buy? Someone has to sell them vehicles!
I bet if you tried rent a vehicle on your next flying vacation or business trip and there were no rental agencies around or if you had to pay double what you are now paying to rent a car or minivan you would be pretty upset!
Selling a lot of vehicles to rental agencies and other fleets does not by definition make those vehicles bad choices for the individual consumer. In fact, larger volumes can result in lower manufacturing costs and thus lower selling prices for a given vehicle, so fleet sales are not necessarily bad for the individual purchaser either.
I think we flogged the rental van argument to death month or so ago. Rental companies use vehicles which are cheap to buy. Car rental companies don't necessarily like to sell to rental fleets but do so to maintain sales volumes. In a previous post I had mentioned that GM said when it introduced the latest Malibu that they would not be putting Malibus into rental fleets because it takes away from the quality image. Take a look at those rental fleets using GM products today and you will see lots of Malibus. Flooding the market with inexpensive used late model rentals causes resale values to plummet. This is another reason why DCX, Ford and GM minivans have much poorer resale than the Asian models.
PROFIT is the most important factor for them. They buy the vehicle which people will rent, will bring in the most rental revenue, and costs least to own when subtracting resale and maintenance costs from initial purchase price providing the company with a decent profit. Mercedes was (and still may be) THE most popular taxi in Germany because of endurance and customer preference...not because Mercedes has the lowest purchase price. Checker cabs were most popular in the USA years ago and they were NOT the cheapest to buy.
As far as other topic floggings, I know you haven't really done this particularly, but so has the number of posts per van, which we all know to be wholly irrelevant. At least you, hans, have generally stayed on relevant points. Thanks for that.
Until the recent spin-offs of rental car companies including Hertz, Avis, Dollar and Thrifty, US automakers owned most of the rental car industry and dumped a large portion of their production on those fleets. In fact, the "Big Three" sold about 30% of their total production to rental car companies in 2005. This compares with less than 10% for Hyundai, the leading "foreign" car company in rental/fleet sales. A recent article in Forbes magazine provides this insight: "At the retail level, after you subtract out sales of rental cars and the special deals to auto factory workers and suppliers, foreign makes outsell General Motors, Ford Motor and Chrysler cars. The Accord is the bestseller in the U.S. this year, and the Camry was the bestseller last year." For reference, GM sold 50% of its 2005 Malibu production to rental car companies and other fleet buyers.
How is this relevant? It illustrates the point that raw sales numbers lie and probably have nothing to do with quality or desirability. If we were to assume that raw sales = better product, then we would have to accept that Whitney Houston's "The Bodyguard" soundtrack, which sold 17 million copies (11th all-time), is better than: every Led Zeppelin album except IV, every Beatles album except "The Beatles", and every Springsteen, Garth Brooks, Rolling Stones, U2, Kid Rock, Eminem, 2 Pac, John Denver, and almost anybody else you want to name's top-selling album. The "higher sales = better product" standard would also put Brittney Spears, Backstreet Boys and Kenny G into the top 20 of all time. That's not a standard I want to live with...
Interesting information to note, vinnyny. Can I ask where you found the numbers on fleet vs. personal-use sales? I'm surprised that the numbers are actually that high. I would have guessed maybe 12-15% for American cars (Crown Vic excluded of course, it is 80% fleet now).
I "Googled" 'Rental Cars Ford Chrysler GM' and found the numbers in detnews.com, forbes.com, and marginalrevolution.com. I don't have the complete URLs handy but you won't have to look far. GM had the most fleet sales at 32% of passenger car production (probably due to the huge number of Malibus they dumped).
The good news for American car buyers is that the "Big Three" are trying to get away from rental/fleet sales because of the negative effects on resale value.
From looking at the Honda Ody prices paid forum, most Odys seem to be going for close to invoice to about $100 over...for most models. Someone posted that carsdirect.com had the LX,EX and EX-L listed at $60 under invoice. Didn't you say you got your Ody for about $200 over invoice about a year ago? May not be long before Honda is offering those 10k rebates like the Ford did with the Freestar I am not sure how many Odysseys were sold last year, but I do not believe that all of the selling prices were posted on this forum. I am willing to bet that most (>90%) of Odysseys were sold at very close to the MSRP and that a great many Chrysler Minivan buyers payed significantly more than is posted in the DC minivan prices paid section.
I think all that over/under invoice pricing is bogus unless you also post the info on your trade-in. I'm guessing that most buyers trade in something when they get a new car. It's the total deal that matters, not what you paid relative to invoice.
The next biggest factor is how much it actually costs you for the total time you own the car. I paid $1 under sticker for my 2001 Ody in Hawaii and sold it for $800 under sticker four months and 7,000 miles later. We bought a 2004 Ody for $24,900 and sold it for $24,100 eight months (and 9,000 miles) later. In both cases, we loved the van but just weren't quite ready for a minivan yet. I don't think we could have gotten away with churning a Chrysler like that (unless we were willing to lose our butts in the process).
By the way, we've got an 06 Ody Touring model now and I think we've grown up enough to hold on to it. Our 22-month old twins pretty much guarantee we'll keep it anyway.
"I'm willing to bet that most(>90%)of Odysseys were sold at very close to the MSRP..."
What information do you have that hundred of posters and Edmunds and carsdirect pricing guides are unaware of? I wouldn't be putting to much on the table with that bet.
Cars direct had the EX-L msrp at 31,345...and its price was $28,758. Invoice was $28,258 So, could probably take another $500 off the $28,758 by going directly to the dealer and getting it at invoice.
Cars direct listed the most popular model choices in order. The Ody EX-L was first at 44%. The EX was listed second at 24%... and not surprising to me...but probably surprising to others(i.e isellhondasatmsrp)the LX was listed third at 21%. That's a lot of interest for a model no one else is supposedly interested in. The Touring was last at 10%.
I am not sure if the vehicle ratings are entirely fair and accurate.
Edmunds bases most of there reviews based on sticker price for the vehicles. But the North American cars in North America usually sell for less than sticker price sometimes quite a bit less then the sticker price unlike the Japanese vehicles like Toyota or Honda which usually sell for close to sticker price. I live in Canada and in my area to get a base Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.3 V6 at one dealership cost $21,000 (as advertised in the local newspaper) at other dealerships an average of about $23,000 while the manufacturer's retail price is $32,000. To buy a base Honda Odyssey would cost $34,000 which is basically the manufacturer retail price.
Honda Odyssey may be a nicer van but for $13,000 it should be. Are you really getting that much of a better van for an extra $13,000? Heck for another $8000 I could have 2 Dodge Grand Caravans. When you take into account the actual purchase price for these vehicles the Dodge Grand Caravan seems to be a much better buy.
Edmunds needs to start basing there reviews on what people actually pay for the vehicles not the suggested retail price. In doing so I think they can give the consumer a much more valid and accurate review of the vehicles.
I am not sure if the vehicle ratings are entirely fair and accurate.
Yep not much is fair.
I live in Canada and in my area to get a base Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.3 V6 at one dealership cost $21,000 (as advertised in the local newspaper) at other dealerships an average of about $23,000 while the manufacturer's retail price is $32,000. To buy a base Honda Odyssey would cost $34,000 which is basically the manufacturer retail price.
I looked the base goes for 33,200 canadien, but someone said none pays close to sticker LOL. You know you'll get 180hp vs 244hp Stability control, Standard side airbags with rollover detection. Better handling and road holding properties. Very good resale value!
Heck for another $8000 I could have 2 Dodge Grand Caravans.
Knock yourself out one Caravan was more than I could handle.
Cars direct listed the most popular model choices in order. The Ody EX-L was first at 44%. The EX was listed second at 24%... and not surprising to me...but probably surprising to others(i.e isellhondasatmsrp)the LX was listed third at 21%. That's a lot of interest for a model no one else is supposedly interested in. The Touring was last at 10%.
That does not surprise me about the LX interest. It just shows how different the total sales demographics are vs. the online enthusiasts. The same holds true for almost any vehicle. There is a much higher percentage of owners/enthusiasts for top trim level/performance level vehicles than their base model brethrens.
What does being a minivan have to do with handling or performance? Both handling and performance have a direct correlation to safety. If the minivan is the vehicle you choose to drive then you are concerned with its overall characteristics. I could not care less how a BMW handles as it has no relation to my minivan. I do care that my minivan has great acceleration, handling, standard VSA and side curtain airbags, neither of which is standard on a DCX van.
The DCX "Bloods" are very quiet since the posting concerning the vast numbers sold to rental/fleets. I don't think it has anything to do with reliability. I paraphrase a TV ad: rental companies like to "buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep". Honda and Toyota limit or restrict rental sales to protect 1)image 2) resale value.
I do care that my minivan has great acceleration, handling, standard VSA and side curtain airbags, neither of which is standard on a DCX van.
But quibbling over minor differences is silly. I care too my minivan has great acceleration, ride and handling. VSA is a nice feature, but so is low cost, flexibility in seating and reliability. If 1.4 sec faster 0-60 mph, or a 4 ft braking difference is that critical for your safety, then go buy a Z06 Vette....my point being there's more to safety than the vehicle. A person who races their minivan on offramps is more a hazard to my safety than my 1.4 sec longer acceration time!
I don't think it has anything to do with reliability. I paraphrase a TV ad: rental companies like to "buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep". Honda and Toyota limit or restrict rental sales to protect 1)image 2) resale value.
I don't think Hertz or Avis would want to spend $30k-$40k for a minivan, to be trashed by their customers. Plus I doubt people would be willing to spend the added $$$$ on a "minivan" rental just because it's a Honda or Toyota.
As far as reliability, this is my 3rd very trouble free Dodge since 1997, my sister and her husband are on their 2nd with no major issues, and my best friends are on their 5th DCX minivan since 1985. If DCX vans were that bad, you'd see tons of issues on these problem boards....especially when you consider DCX sells 2 times as many as Honda.(I know, we DCX people are totally computer illiterate and only a few of us ever post...but seems like the same Ody people constantly posting too???) For many Dodge owners, our Minivan are reliable appliances for hauling kids and stuff, that are inexpensive to buy and maintain hence repeat customers.
Note that since Edmunds created the "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions:(2005+ Models", there's been 131 posts in just 2.5 weeks!!!! People that live in glass houses.......
But, to be fair you need to point out the number of posts in Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth Minivans:Problems and Solutions. Which doesn't encompass just the 2005 models, but their minivans for...what...the last 24 years? In the last 2.5 weeks there has been 44 posts.
On handling...the difference between the minivans is miniscule. If Ody gets a 88 and DGC is an 84 (or the other way around) they are both graded B's. It's not like they don't have power steering...or handle like a broken down oxe cart. They are both well over "acceptable" in both handling and acceleration. Now...you want a mini/cross that has superior handling and acceleration...something to really take those hairpin turns on freeway exit ramps, and leave the competition in your vapor trails, try the Mazda 5.
But, to be fair you need to point out the number of posts in Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth Minivans:Problems and Solutions. Which doesn't encompass just the 2005 models, but their minivans for...what...the last 24 years? In the last 2.5 weeks there has been 44 posts.
Seems like all the DCX problems focus on older generations, not the current one....blame DCX for building a reliable, trouble free minvan.
No thanks on the Mazda, I'm dreaming 911 4S Cabriolet what's a mere $80k difference?
VSA is as important as seatbelts according to most safety groups including Consumer's Union. To say price is more important than the passenger's safety is ridiculous at the least and almost criminal at best. How can one put a price on your family's safety? Sure, safe driving is the most important thing but what happens to you if you have to swerve away from a knuckle head speeding on the off ramp?
Rental car companies pay far less than you think for their vehicles with many being leased from the manufacturer. When the lease is up the cars go to dealer as "program cars". It is all about low cost.
We should move away from all the bickering here because you are not changing my mind and me not changing yours. I have driven a 2006 DCX minivan right after and just before driving my '06 Odyssey. No person in their right mind can convince me the DCX is anywhere near being in the same league. Say all you want about Honda quality but look at all the surveys, read all the experts and then make an intelligent statement claiming DCX has equal to or better quality.
I know that owning seven different minivans does not make me any more of an expert than the person here who owns a four or five year old DCX van bashing the '06 Odyssey. I buy what I feel will give me good service and be safe for me and those I carry. If DCX were the last company on earth making vehicles I would buy a horse and wagon. I have owned a few of their products, each worse than the one before. I have also had pieces of poop from Toyota and Nissan. My son had a Subaru Forester that was a lemon. It does happen. So far, for about 5,600 miles the Odyssey has been fine, not perfect. It is though, without a doubt, in my humble opinion, the best of the six other that came before.
VSA is as important as seatbelts according to most safety groups including Consumer's Union. To say price is more important than the passenger's safety is ridiculous at the least and almost criminal at best. How can one put a price on your family's safety?
So a person who's driving their family around in a clunker would be better off not buying a new DCX van (or any new vehicle) unless it has VSA? Maybe they can't afford a base Honda for $25k? But buying a nice reliable DCX with up to date airbags and meeting newer safety and emissions standards...is criminal?
"Car and Driver quote about DCX ride/handling/engine by thegraduate " Interesting that you quote an article from the June 2004 Car and Driver, which incidentally did not test the latest version of the Odyssey. A more recent test from Motor Trend with instrumented ride and handling shows quite the opposite. (lowest is best) Dodge grand Caravan was best in ride control. DGC bounce .031g, Ody bounce .037g, DGC pitch .021g, Ody pitch .025g, DGC roll .016g Ody roll .020g, Overall DGC .068g, Ody .082g. "If this journey was just about the aft compartment the Grand caravan would have things all sewn up. It's the roomiest of our trio, has the most innovative storage solutions, and in our INSTRUMENTED ride-quality test, tied the Sienna for Bounce control and BESTED the Odyssey and Sienna in pitch and roll control. That's quite an accomplishment considering the Caravan's rear leaf springs and beam axle evoke a time when Big Tiny Little from The Lawrence Welk Show was just a young fella." To be accurate in posting The Odyssey was still ranked first Due to engine and transmission performance (enhanced by a higher gear ratio) Let's put this topic of floaty boaty ride to rest. For those who want a minivan that takes corners and on ramps with speed you can option the DGC for the trailer towing package, which provides those heavy duty springs shocks and trans cooler and heavy duty radiator, battery and load leveling rear shocks, at the expense of a slightly harsher ride. (about $600 list)
Let me see, YTD Dec sales DCX vans is 407,530 and Odyssey 174,275. If we subtracted 100,000 from DCX for "fleet sales" as proposed by some posters, that leaves DCX with an advantage of 133,255. Odyssey may be the most researched minivan, but buyers are not convinced enough to buy them. End of sermon. What's wrong with Mc Donalds? I own stock in them.
"..Dodge Grand Caravan was best in ride control...
Thanks for that info hay. I am surprised and somewhat shocked at the results.I would have thought Ody to have the slight advantage. But, I have always maintained there is very little difference amoung minivans in categorys such as this. I don't know why this type of testing isn't used more often. It has made something that has always been subjective..into something that can be easily measured. Can't really argue with scientific numbers like that. I am curious if they have ever done something to measure the differences in how quiet a vehicle is? You always hear people saying this or that van is quieter...but as far as I know no one has taken a decibel instrument reading from inside either van.
The Odyssey was still ranked first Due to engine and transmission performance (enhanced by a higher gear ratio) Engine rpms at 60 MPH. DGC 1800 RPM Ody 1950 RPM.
Wish had had bought their stock 2-3 years ago. The offer the best fast food for the buck. Sort of like the DCX vans are the best van for the buck. Where do ODY owners eat? Not at McDonalds I am sure ...
The new 2006 Kia Sedona has the airbags and VSA for less money than a similar DCX. So the answer would be "yes".
Seems to me there are many other factors to consider than just price and VSA. If VSA was that important of a safety feature, I'm certain Uncle Sam would be mandating it on us, like center brake lights, airbags etc... VSA is not the cure all for safety, just like other touted systems in the past.
If VSA was that important of a safety feature, I'm certain Uncle Sam would be mandating it on us, like center brake lights, airbags etc...
What planet are you from? Next thing you are going to tell us is that there ARE WMD in Iraq because the government mandated it? How about "I am not a crook"? You believed that too? I guess you don't believe big industry controls our government? I have some nice, dry land along the levees in New Orleans to sell you.
The Odyssey was still ranked first Due to engine and transmission performance (enhanced by a higher gear ratio) Engine rpms at 60 MPH. DGC 1800 RPM Ody 1950 RPM.
Um, not in the 2000 model or the 2005 model. Both Odys I drove ran at 1700 rpm in top gear at 60 mph. Even the 4-speed of 1999-2001 model Ody. Not sure where you get off making false claims about that, but other ody owners can tell you the same thing.
"If VSA was that important of a safety feature, I'm certain Uncle Sam would be mandating it on us, like center brake lights, airbags etc..."
Well, Uncle Sam doesn't mandate ABS either. Would you buy a minivan without ABS?
BTW - initial studies indicate that some form of VSA (generically known as ESC or Electronic Stability Control) could prove to be more beneficial than ABS and airbags combined.
Don't write off VSA just because it is not offered by DCX (hmmmmmm, sounds just like what Ody owners have been accused of regarding sto'n'go seating). You can bet that DCX is working hard to implement some form of ESC on their vans in the next couple of years; probably WAY before Honda tries to offer some form of sto'n'go.
And the reason for that is simple: ESC offers a very real safety advance (one which helps the driver to AVOID an accident vs. simply surviving one). On the other hand, sto'n'go seating is simply a convenience feature.
How many times have you activated VSA in your Ody?
Hopefully he doesn't know. VSA is designed to keep your vehicle on track in the first place should a loss of control be iminent. It doesn't sound alarms as in the Toyota. That would be more of a distraction where one definitely isn't needed (trying to regain control in an emergency).
I'm driving a 10 year old Accord and never used my airbags; that doesn't mean I don't want the security of them being there should the situation warrant their use.
To answer the question: Once, the other day when I was rounding the corner at an intersection paved in brick. The bricks were wet and the back end started to slide. In an instant the VSA light came on and the rear snapped back into place even though it was still on the slippery brick. It was very reassuring. If I lived where it got cold enough to freeze I would look for a wide stretch of frozen, deserted road and try to spin the sucker. I am told it will not happen with the VSA active.
I am told it will not happen [spin] with VSA active.
On the CR-V board, I have read where people did this very thing in icy parking lots. With it active, they could not make the car lose control. With it switched off, they did 360s!
"Um, not in the 2000 model or the 2005 model. Both Odys I drove ran at 1700 rpm in top gear at 60 mph. Even the 4-speed of 1999-2001 model Ody. Not sure where you get off making false claims about that, but other ody owners can tell you the same thing." So am I to beleive your visual observations or the published facts by Honda and those quoted by Motor Trend on page 141 of the May 2005 issue?
I really think that the govt should mandate some of these safety features (airbags, antilock brakes, etc) just like they did with seatbelts & 3rd brake lights. I know choice is a good thing, but when it comes to safety that's where I feel the government should step in.
And to me, it seems like the Odyssey, Sienna & GC are so close in so many ways, that it's really just a matter of driving all 3, seeing which features you like, and then picking the one that meets your needs for the price you can afford.
"How many times have you activated VSA in your Ody?"
How many times have you activated the airbags in your Town and Country? What kind of a question is that? I can't recall the last flat tire I had either, and the last accident I was in was when I was a teenager (over 20 years). Guess what? I carry a spare, and I have insurance.
VSA (like airbags) are there for times when you need it. I know that my wife, in the times when she had her 4runner, lost control on a rainslick curve (once) and bounced her SUV over a curb hard enough to peel the tire off the rim. Fortunately, she didn't flip the 4runner; VSA would have help to prevent the skid.
On a seperate occasion, she came around a curve and an on-coming car was halfway across the center line. In an effort to avoid the on-coming car, she took extreme evasion actions (very quick right/left) on the steering wheel and the vehicle started to spin. Fortunately, she caught it; but again, VSA would have helped.
I can appreciate items which help the driver to maintain control in emergency situations. I think they are a plus. Of course, some of you would rather have the ability the store your 2nd row seats in the floor once a year rather than face the indignity of lugging them into the garage. I guess we all just have different priorities.
I was looking around on the internet and saw the NEW power outputs for the DCX 3.8L. I remember alot of people on here saying Honda is ripping you people off and lieing to you. Well looks like the new standards are in. I'll try and find the old posts and see who the offending parties were. It's wierd that when DCX HP and Torque went down there wasn't much noise about it?? DCX 3.8L 2005 215hp/245ft-lbs 2006 205hp/240ft-lbs. The 3.3 is not useing the new standards. BTW I think someone said the Americian companies would have higher HP/Torgue with the new standards. Looks like they got it wrong.
Comments
Toyota and Honda probably sell twice as many Camrys and Accords than # 3 and # 4 combined.
IF DC is the McDonald's of minivans, the Camry and Accord are the McDonald's of sedans.
On the other hand, IF the Camry and Accord sell more sedans because they meet more people's needs, the same holds true for DC minivans.
DC minivans meet more people's needs than twice the number of Odysseys and Siennas combined. :shades:
I believe the vehicle you mentioned above is the lx model, I remember it could be had for under $22k at that time. If it were up to me, i would've have gotten a 05 mpv lx with all the doodads for under $21k
Rental agencies buy vehicles that PEOPLE want to drive.
My friend recently rented a T&C one week and then a Freestar the next. He and his wife preferred the T&C which he said was quieter, drove more nicely, and performed better going up the hills of southeastern Wyoming from Denver.
I bet if you tried rent a vehicle on your next flying vacation or business trip and there were no rental agencies around or if you had to pay double what you are now paying to rent a car or minivan you would be pretty upset!
Selling a lot of vehicles to rental agencies and other fleets does not by definition make those vehicles bad choices for the individual consumer. In fact, larger volumes can result in lower manufacturing costs and thus lower selling prices for a given vehicle, so fleet sales are not necessarily bad for the individual purchaser either.
They buy the vehicle which people will rent, will bring in the most rental revenue, and costs least to own when subtracting resale and maintenance costs from initial purchase price providing the company with a decent profit.
Mercedes was (and still may be) THE most popular taxi in Germany because of endurance and customer preference...not because Mercedes has the lowest purchase price. Checker cabs were most popular in the USA years ago and they were NOT the cheapest to buy.
thegrad
How is this relevant? It illustrates the point that raw sales numbers lie and probably have nothing to do with quality or desirability. If we were to assume that raw sales = better product, then we would have to accept that Whitney Houston's "The Bodyguard" soundtrack, which sold 17 million copies (11th all-time), is better than: every Led Zeppelin album except IV, every Beatles album except "The Beatles", and every Springsteen, Garth Brooks, Rolling Stones, U2, Kid Rock, Eminem, 2 Pac, John Denver, and almost anybody else you want to name's top-selling album. The "higher sales = better product" standard would also put Brittney Spears, Backstreet Boys and Kenny G into the top 20 of all time. That's not a standard I want to live with...
The good news for American car buyers is that the "Big Three" are trying to get away from rental/fleet sales because of the negative effects on resale value.
I am not sure how many Odysseys were sold last year, but I do not believe that all of the selling prices were posted on this forum. I am willing to bet that most (>90%) of Odysseys were sold at very close to the MSRP and that a great many Chrysler Minivan buyers payed significantly more than is posted in the DC minivan prices paid section.
The next biggest factor is how much it actually costs you for the total time you own the car. I paid $1 under sticker for my 2001 Ody in Hawaii and sold it for $800 under sticker four months and 7,000 miles later. We bought a 2004 Ody for $24,900 and sold it for $24,100 eight months (and 9,000 miles) later. In both cases, we loved the van but just weren't quite ready for a minivan yet. I don't think we could have gotten away with churning a Chrysler like that (unless we were willing to lose our butts in the process).
By the way, we've got an 06 Ody Touring model now and I think we've grown up enough to hold on to it. Our 22-month old twins pretty much guarantee we'll keep it anyway.
What information do you have that hundred of posters and Edmunds and carsdirect pricing guides are unaware of?
I wouldn't be putting to much on the table with that bet.
Cars direct had the EX-L msrp at 31,345...and its price was $28,758. Invoice was $28,258 So, could probably take another $500 off the $28,758 by going directly to the dealer and getting it at invoice.
Cars direct listed the most popular model choices in order. The Ody EX-L was first at 44%. The EX was listed second at 24%... and not surprising to me...but probably surprising to others(i.e isellhondasatmsrp)the LX was listed third at 21%. That's a lot of interest for a model no one else is supposedly interested in. The Touring was last at 10%.
Edmunds bases most of there reviews based on sticker price for the vehicles. But the North American cars in North America usually sell for less than sticker price sometimes quite a bit less then the sticker price unlike the Japanese vehicles like Toyota or Honda which usually sell for close to sticker price. I live in Canada and in my area to get a base Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.3 V6 at one dealership cost $21,000 (as advertised in the local newspaper) at other dealerships an average of about $23,000 while the manufacturer's retail price is $32,000. To buy a base Honda Odyssey would cost $34,000 which is basically the manufacturer retail price.
Honda Odyssey may be a nicer van but for $13,000 it should be. Are you really getting that much of a better van for an extra $13,000? Heck for another $8000 I could have 2 Dodge Grand Caravans. When you take into account the actual purchase price for these vehicles the Dodge Grand Caravan seems to be a much better buy.
Edmunds needs to start basing there reviews on what people actually pay for the vehicles not the suggested retail price. In doing so I think they can give the consumer a much more valid and accurate review of the vehicles.
Yep not much is fair.
I live in Canada and in my area to get a base Dodge Grand Caravan with a 3.3 V6 at one dealership cost $21,000 (as advertised in the local newspaper) at other dealerships an average of about $23,000 while the manufacturer's retail price is $32,000. To buy a base Honda Odyssey would cost $34,000 which is basically the manufacturer retail price.
I looked the base goes for 33,200 canadien, but someone said none pays close to sticker LOL. You know you'll get 180hp vs 244hp Stability control, Standard side airbags with rollover detection. Better handling and road holding properties. Very good resale value!
Heck for another $8000 I could have 2 Dodge Grand Caravans.
Knock yourself out one Caravan was more than I could handle.
Cars direct listed the most popular model choices in order. The Ody EX-L was first at 44%. The EX was listed second at 24%... and not surprising to me...but probably surprising to others(i.e isellhondasatmsrp)the LX was listed third at 21%. That's a lot of interest for a model no one else is supposedly interested in. The Touring was last at 10%.
That does not surprise me about the LX interest. It just shows how different the total sales demographics are vs. the online enthusiasts. The same holds true for almost any vehicle. There is a much higher percentage of owners/enthusiasts for top trim level/performance level vehicles than their base model brethrens.
The DCX "Bloods" are very quiet since the posting concerning the vast numbers sold to rental/fleets. I don't think it has anything to do with reliability. I paraphrase a TV ad: rental companies like to "buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep". Honda and Toyota limit or restrict rental sales to protect 1)image 2) resale value.
But quibbling over minor differences is silly. I care too my minivan has great acceleration, ride and handling. VSA is a nice feature, but so is low cost, flexibility in seating and reliability. If 1.4 sec faster 0-60 mph, or a 4 ft braking difference is that critical for your safety, then go buy a Z06 Vette....my point being there's more to safety than the vehicle. A person who races their minivan on offramps is more a hazard to my safety than my 1.4 sec longer acceration time!
I don't think it has anything to do with reliability. I paraphrase a TV ad: rental companies like to "buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep". Honda and Toyota limit or restrict rental sales to protect 1)image 2) resale value.
I don't think Hertz or Avis would want to spend $30k-$40k for a minivan, to be trashed by their customers. Plus I doubt people would be willing to spend the added $$$$ on a "minivan" rental just because it's a Honda or Toyota.
As far as reliability, this is my 3rd very trouble free Dodge since 1997, my sister and her husband are on their 2nd with no major issues, and my best friends are on their 5th DCX minivan since 1985. If DCX vans were that bad, you'd see tons of issues on these problem boards....especially when you consider DCX sells 2 times as many as Honda.(I know, we DCX people are totally computer illiterate and only a few of us ever post...but seems like the same Ody people constantly posting too???) For many Dodge owners, our Minivan are reliable appliances for hauling kids and stuff, that are inexpensive to buy and maintain hence repeat customers.
Note that since Edmunds created the "Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems & Solutions:(2005+ Models", there's been 131 posts in just 2.5 weeks!!!! People that live in glass houses.......
But, to be fair you need to point out the number of posts in Dodge/Chrysler/Plymouth Minivans:Problems and Solutions.
Which doesn't encompass just the 2005 models, but their minivans for...what...the last 24 years? In the last 2.5 weeks there has been 44 posts.
On handling...the difference between the minivans is miniscule. If Ody gets a 88 and DGC is an 84 (or the other way around) they are both graded B's. It's not like they don't have power steering...or handle like a broken down oxe cart. They are both well over "acceptable" in both handling and acceleration.
Now...you want a mini/cross that has superior handling and acceleration...something to really take those hairpin turns on freeway exit ramps, and leave the competition in your vapor trails, try the Mazda 5.
Which doesn't encompass just the 2005 models, but their minivans for...what...the last 24 years? In the last 2.5 weeks there has been 44 posts.
Seems like all the DCX problems focus on older generations, not the current one....blame DCX for building a reliable, trouble free minvan.
No thanks on the Mazda, I'm dreaming 911 4S Cabriolet
Rental car companies pay far less than you think for their vehicles with many being leased from the manufacturer. When the lease is up the cars go to dealer as "program cars". It is all about low cost.
We should move away from all the bickering here because you are not changing my mind and me not changing yours. I have driven a 2006 DCX minivan right after and just before driving my '06 Odyssey. No person in their right mind can convince me the DCX is anywhere near being in the same league. Say all you want about Honda quality but look at all the surveys, read all the experts and then make an intelligent statement claiming DCX has equal to or better quality.
I know that owning seven different minivans does not make me any more of an expert than the person here who owns a four or five year old DCX van bashing the '06 Odyssey. I buy what I feel will give me good service and be safe for me and those I carry. If DCX were the last company on earth making vehicles I would buy a horse and wagon. I have owned a few of their products, each worse than the one before. I have also had pieces of poop from Toyota and Nissan. My son had a Subaru Forester that was a lemon. It does happen. So far, for about 5,600 miles the Odyssey has been fine, not perfect. It is though, without a doubt, in my humble opinion, the best of the six other that came before.
So a person who's driving their family around in a clunker would be better off not buying a new DCX van (or any new vehicle) unless it has VSA? Maybe they can't afford a base Honda for $25k? But buying a nice reliable DCX with up to date airbags and meeting newer safety and emissions standards...is criminal?
Thanks for that info hay. I am surprised and somewhat shocked at the results.I would have thought Ody to have the slight advantage. But, I have always maintained there is very little difference amoung minivans in categorys such as this. I don't know why this type of testing isn't used more often. It has made something that has always been subjective..into something that can be easily measured. Can't really argue with scientific numbers like that. I am curious if they have ever done something to measure the differences in how quiet a vehicle is? You always hear people saying this or that van is quieter...but as far as I know no one has taken a decibel instrument reading from inside either van.
Engine rpms at 60 MPH. DGC 1800 RPM Ody 1950 RPM.
No it's just more expensive. There's what we want and what we get!!
What's wrong with Mc Donalds? I own stock in them.
Nothing if you like fat and calories with no substance!!
I wish I had purchased McDonalds stock 3 years ago when I wanted but a friend talked me into Kmart!!!
With their more discerning tastebuds, I'm certain it's Wendy's
Seems to me there are many other factors to consider than just price and VSA. If VSA was that important of a safety feature, I'm certain Uncle Sam would be mandating it on us, like center brake lights, airbags etc... VSA is not the cure all for safety, just like other touted systems in the past.
If VSA was that important of a safety feature, I'm certain Uncle Sam would be mandating it on us, like center brake lights, airbags etc...
What planet are you from? Next thing you are going to tell us is that there ARE WMD in Iraq because the government mandated it? How about "I am not a crook"? You believed that too? I guess you don't believe big industry controls our government? I have some nice, dry land along the levees in New Orleans to sell you.
Engine rpms at 60 MPH. DGC 1800 RPM Ody 1950 RPM.
Um, not in the 2000 model or the 2005 model. Both Odys I drove ran at 1700 rpm in top gear at 60 mph. Even the 4-speed of 1999-2001 model Ody. Not sure where you get off making false claims about that, but other ody owners can tell you the same thing.
Well, Uncle Sam doesn't mandate ABS either. Would you buy a minivan without ABS?
BTW - initial studies indicate that some form of VSA (generically known as ESC or Electronic Stability Control) could prove to be more beneficial than ABS and airbags combined.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9036
Don't write off VSA just because it is not offered by DCX (hmmmmmm, sounds just like what Ody owners have been accused of regarding sto'n'go seating). You can bet that DCX is working hard to implement some form of ESC on their vans in the next couple of years; probably WAY before Honda tries to offer some form of sto'n'go.
And the reason for that is simple: ESC offers a very real safety advance (one which helps the driver to AVOID an accident vs. simply surviving one). On the other hand, sto'n'go seating is simply a convenience feature.
Hopefully he doesn't know. VSA is designed to keep your vehicle on track in the first place should a loss of control be iminent. It doesn't sound alarms as in the Toyota. That would be more of a distraction where one definitely isn't needed (trying to regain control in an emergency).
I'm driving a 10 year old Accord and never used my airbags; that doesn't mean I don't want the security of them being there should the situation warrant their use.
On the CR-V board, I have read where people did this very thing in icy parking lots. With it active, they could not make the car lose control. With it switched off, they did 360s!
And to me, it seems like the Odyssey, Sienna & GC are so close in so many ways, that it's really just a matter of driving all 3, seeing which features you like, and then picking the one that meets your needs for the price you can afford.
How many times have you activated the airbags in your Town and Country? What kind of a question is that? I can't recall the last flat tire I had either, and the last accident I was in was when I was a teenager (over 20 years). Guess what? I carry a spare, and I have insurance.
VSA (like airbags) are there for times when you need it. I know that my wife, in the times when she had her 4runner, lost control on a rainslick curve (once) and bounced her SUV over a curb hard enough to peel the tire off the rim. Fortunately, she didn't flip the 4runner; VSA would have help to prevent the skid.
On a seperate occasion, she came around a curve and an on-coming car was halfway across the center line. In an effort to avoid the on-coming car, she took extreme evasion actions (very quick right/left) on the steering wheel and the vehicle started to spin. Fortunately, she caught it; but again, VSA would have helped.
I can appreciate items which help the driver to maintain control in emergency situations. I think they are a plus. Of course, some of you would rather have the ability the store your 2nd row seats in the floor once a year rather than face the indignity of lugging them into the garage. I guess we all just have different priorities.