Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

louiswei · December 2006

Boy the interior is definitely light years ahead of the current model. The massive front grille and headlight looks pretty good too. If the handling is up to G35's standard (3er's might be a stretch) then I'll say this is definitely a winner. Oh BTW, that's given if Caddy doesn't jack up the price too much.

Hey Rocky, for once, you might be right about this one... :P

agentstirling · December 2006

:shades: This is so true!

rockylee · December 2006

louiswei,

I've seen this one and several other spy photo's around the net. I actually watched that 60 minutes video several months back. The 08' looks very promising indeed and is confirmed to have a Direct-Injection VVT version of the 3.6 "High Feature" V-6 for the regular CTS. If this car gets the "Gadgetology" then we might have another contender in the entry-lux crowd.

Rocky

laurasdada · December 2006

Louiswei brings up a very good point re: Cadillac in general: They overprice their cars. When I first looked at the CTS at the New England Auto Show when it was first released years ago, I didn't initially look at the Monroney. First strike was the exterior (imho a basically handome design then ruined by extra layers, shapes and a truckish front end). Strike two was the interior: cheap, cheap, cheap and incongruous. But, maybe the drive would be great (post auto-show). So, now to the sticker: Steeeeerkike three!!! $40k+. Crossed off the list, and on I went. But hey. It was a departure, and overall a good enough drive to be a winner for Caddy. But just think had they built the complete car and priced it a la Lexus back in '89...

I'm partial to the XLR. Unfortunately, wicked over-priced. Hence production was cut in half during its first year of production (if I remember correctly). Ths STS, yeah you know. Rebates, trunk money etc, etc.

I think the rebates/trunk money and general typical GM fire sales diminish the brand. Had they priced better in the first place...

But, otoh, Caddy appears to be on the rise. Competiton is good, maybe a rising Caddy will keep BMW/MB/Audi/Infiniti/Acura prices in check...

nyccarguy · December 2006

When the '08 CTS comes out it will be followed closely by 0% financing, $X,000 rebates, & of course employee pricing.

merc1 · December 2006

This is GM/Cadillac's chance to really show what they got. No more excuse and none of the "wait till next year" crap. With cars like the G35, IS350 and 335i already out this CTS needs to be more than merely competitive if it is going to stand out.

M

circlew · December 2006

I agree the competition is REAL HOT. G35 and 335i will be extremely hard to beat imo. CTS does nothing for me visually and residuals are atrocious on all big 3, even their premium. The C6 is the only car that holds value over the years.

The '08 CTS photos just posted show some hope but as laurasdada says, the pricing model will hinder sales again, as usual.

Regards,
OW

louiswei · December 2006

Maybe there is hope for Caddy if it can price the CTS around the Infiniti/Lexus range. Once the starting price of the bigger engine version (3.6L) is approaching $37K (335i territory) then it's all over.

What I would like to see is...

Small engine version (2.8L maybe?): Starting at $29K just to make a point that it's below $30K.

Big engine version (3.6L): Starting at $34K to undercut the IS350 and be competitive with the G35.

Standard equipments: Xenon + turning headlight, moonroof, push-button start, easy access, bluetooth, manual tranny, 18-inch wheels, DVD audio system.

I truly believe that if the above criteria can be reached then Caddy is going to have a winner in their inventory. However, the possibility of that happening is...something like 33.3% (LOL, too much survivor for me).

circlew · December 2006

You should consult for the Big 3 to get their heads out of the board room and onto the streets. It makes a lot of sense to follow in the shoes of Infinity when they took aim at BMW and are getting real close to their goal.

But for US auto, it's really academic now.

Regards,
OW

laurasdada · December 2006

If Caddy is going to charge BMW prices, most buyers will buy BMWs...

Caddy should/should have taken a lesson from Toyota/Lexus book back in '89. If I remember, with the LS400, I believe that the press was not only dazzled with the car, but moreso at the price point it was offered. Product moved, prices/margins went up.

Wheter it's the (sorry Rockylee) burdensome UAW overhead, inefficiencies or just stupidity/arrogance, Caddy has shot itself in the foot with their pricing structure. Really, when Caddy is rebating alongside Chevy & Pontiac (et. al.), where is the "Premium?"

joe131 · December 2006

I'd like to start a discusssion on manual transmission cars that can hit about100 MPH in the 1/4 mile. I looked at the website but can't figure out how to start a new one.
I'm thinking BMW 335i, Mustang GT, Acura TL type S, Infinity G35 and the like with a maximum sticker price of around $50,000. What others are available with manual transmissions (the kind with the clutch pedal on the floor, remember)?
In the market for one, preferably new '06 or '07. AWD is not a requirement.

blueguydotcom · December 2006

Sti, Evo, Mazdaspeed3 (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=117762/pageId=10- 6162)

Bang for your buck, the Mazdaspeed3 obliterates the competition. 22k for that kind of performance. Wow.

circlew · December 2006

I,ll take the EVO.

Regards,
OW

allargon · December 2006

If you don't like the exterior of the CTS, then the new redesign probably won't do much for you. I declined to buy an Acura TL recently despite loving the size, driving dynamics (complaints about the FWD and turning circle are IMHO overblown) and interior of the car because every time I looked at it in my garage I would think I can't believe I bought an Accord! :sick: (Yes, I know the suspension, engine, gadgets, make it so much more. But, it looks like an Accord despite the body kit.)

I love the in your face exterior of the CTS. A lot of people don't like American styling. (They can buy the Mazda6 instead of the Ford Fusion or the Toyota Matrix instead of the Pontiac Vibe.) However, a lot of people don't like the exteriors of Japanese cars, either.

The only reason there's no CTS in my garage now is due to the interior. I can handle the angular padding on the doors and dash and the cheap plastic (the G35 has plenty, too), but that center stack instrument panel just hurts my eyes too much.

Pricing? Cadillacs were never cheap cars. IMHO, they shouldn't be. Part of the decline of their status of a brand in addition to the quality decline is the fact that there are so many cheaper, older ones on the road. In Europe, there are plenty of older Audis on the road ("Pimp My Ride" and "Top Gear" showcase them all the time.), but I almost never see older Audis in the US.

Residuals? The CTS actually held its value pretty well considering it was an American car. (The STS? Ouch, 35K worth of depreciation in two years.) It actually did well in this class. The Japanese 3 (Acura, Infiniti, Lexus) in this class hold their values better than the European ones.

100mph in the 1/4 mile? Yeah, a lot of folks mentioned the rally cars. 50k? How about adding the CTS-V, Chrysler 300C ST8 and the Boxster S (base) as contenders. (Note: I was too lazy to actually look up the #'s to see if they belong.)

circlew · December 2006

I do like what I see of the new interior of the '08 CTS but I need to sit in it to really decide. The Acura was OK when I shopped in '05 but I did not drive it. I test drove the G35 coupe but I decided on a sedan and the G sedan is not my taste either, although the '07 looks far better. The coupe handled great and was fat but wind noise was apparent and room and interior did not do it for me.

Cadillac lost some of it's appeal due to quality and image loss to the ELPS segment. The CTS is a nice try but as usual, missed the mark, IMO.

I did test drive the 300C SRT8 and it was great but mileage/residual was a killer. I made my decision toward the end of '05 before $78/barrel hit. I am glad I went with the xi.

Regards,
OW

allargon · December 2006

I think a lot of posters in this forum that dissed the Acura TL type S as being overpriced haven't driven it. It may be lacking in the horsepower dept. compared to BMW, Lexus and Infiniti, but it's a great driver.

With all this talk about the CTS getting a 2008 overhaul, no one is mentioning that the C-class is getting one, too.

circlew · December 2006

I was thinking about getting a TL Type S back in 2004. Since I am not an expert driver, I felt more confident in the xi.

I have not shopped the Mercs yet. But the 300C SRT was a cheap mans E500 AMG for real.

Regards,
OW

rockylee · December 2006

GM, has cut rebates down significantly, does due the 0% financing on some models but so does Toyota, and only did the employee pricing once on model year 2005'.

The 08' CTS based on what I know will sell on its own merit. The current model is old and tired but still remains a strong seller.

I'm not trying to being sarcastic but I feel many folks still are living in the 80's and 90's when it comes to GM products. I'm not saying they are better than Toyota or Honda, but finally we are starting to see them become at least competitive again and each new year it seems they are closing the gap.

Rocky

rockylee · December 2006

Wheter it's the (sorry Rockylee) burdensome UAW overhead, inefficiencies or just stupidity/arrogance

The new modern Lansing, Michigan plant where the CTS is made is only the second best plant in the world behind the Lexus plant in Japan. The workers work in teams and have very flexible job classifications allowing GM to have less employees utilizing manpower.

FYI- The UAW has allowed GM to hire temps at $19 an hour with zero benefits. Delphi, has the same deal but only has to pay $14 an hour. Delphi, has hired some employees full-time including my step-dad and aunt. Both are expected to get benefits sometime in January, but neither will make the wages, benefits, retirements, UAW veterans have received.

Rocky

nyccarguy · December 2006

I'm an admitted import fan (BMWCCA Member) and GM hater (after owning a 1992 Chevrolet Beretta GT as my first car I have every right to). Without getting into the politics of unions or the whole American vs. the imports discussion (WAY OT), in order for the upcoming CTS to be at least competitive in this segment it has to WOW people. It needs a well designed interior with high quality materials, excellent performance from even the base model (Will the Motor from the Satunr Aura XR fit a RWD Caddy?) including acceleration, balance, ride & handling, narrow & even body panel gaps, it has to be reliable... Otherwise the new CTS will be available for purchase with 0% financing for 72 months with employee pricing, massive rebates, free navigation system, & Buy One Get One Free.

plekto · December 2006

Don't forget that the CTS also can be had with a manual transmission and is RWD. That's worth a lot to people who want a car for less than a BMW - but with better reliability and a softer ride. It's definately cheaper than a G35 or Lexus.

And to be honest, what's next? 4 second times and 400HP being considered "weak"? We've already crossed the threshold of what most consumers require in a car in terms of power and speed, so you have to look at the total picture. For instance the GM 3.6 engine - no HP monster, but it's essentially a Honda or Toyota engine tewchnology-wise with the VVT - but in a car that is well under $30k.(Buick LaCrosse CXS) It's a very nice total package that competes well against the Japanese cars in real-life driving.

shipo · December 2006

...but with better reliability...

Oh puleez, your credibility just dropped a bunch of points with a comment like that. You have absolutely no way of knowing whether a new CTS is going to be more or less reliable than any given car produced anywhere and at any time. :P

louiswei · December 2006

It's definately cheaper than a G35 or Lexus.

Right now the 3.6L version is starting at $33.5K, so cheaper than IS350? Yes. G35? No (G35 starts at $31.5K). If the outgoing CTS has a higher MSRP than the new G35, then I don't like the chance of the new CTS to be cheaper than G35 to happen.

kdshapiro · December 2006

"The new modern Lansing, Michigan plant where the CTS is made is only the second best plant in the world behind the Lexus plant in Japan."

The BMW plant in South Africa is rated a "gold" by JD Powers. I think it was tied with or maybe even above Lexus. (but I'm sure ya'll will correct me if I am mistaken)

plekto · December 2006

I'll definately put a Buick or Cadillac up against a BMW or Audi when it comes to reliability and cost to repair.

The GMs also have incentives at the end of the year which should be factored in as well.

For the under $30K comment, I was talking about the La Crosse CXS.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/buick/lacrosse/100569954/optionsresults.html?act- ion=2
Under 25K.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/cadillac/cts/100563997/optionsresults.html?actio- n=2
Just under $28K.

As I said, it's a real alternative to the imports for those of us on a budget. I just wish they'd fix the cneter stack and replace it with something nice - and also fix the hideous rear end.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/cadillac/cts/100563998/optionsresults.html?actio- n=2
Just over 25K. In that light, it's a much better deal than an Accord, IMO. Drives a whole lot better, I'll tell you.

circlew · December 2006

I agree the incentives are there but the resale/residuals are punishing...always have been. The US cars drive OK but the performance edge has grown quite large vs. the ELPS imports.

Regards,
OW

habitat1 · December 2006

"The new modern Lansing, Michigan plant where the CTS is made is only the second best plant in the world behind the Lexus plant in Japan."

I'd like to see that source. I saw a list of the top automotive plants in the world - rated by manufacturing quality, R&D facilities, use of precision engineering and robotics, etc. - just a few weeks ago and there were 0 American plants in the top 8-10. I believe it was in Automobile magazine at my Dr's. office, but I've been unable to find the list on the web.

Honda, Porsche, BMW, Toyota/Lexus, Ferrari, and a few others topped the list The Honda R&D center in Tochigi was still rated the tops in the world.

No offense, but I'm guessing abything that rated GM high is more of a Rick Wagoner "wish" list than an objective source unaffiliated with GM.

robbieg · December 2006

I am not the Caddy expert but aren't your "standard equipment items" options on the current CTS. Basically, what you are asking for is the have the base CTS priced at/or below the TL. I agree a new CTS for 30,000 would be a good deal but Cadillac will never price it that low because they want to hit you with 4000 worth of options. Acura hit a home run with the TL from a price perspective, same thing for the Infiniti G35. Cadillac missed with the current CTS. Will it miss with the new one?

circlew · December 2006

I believe Rocky was referring to the IQS rating from J.D. Power on Global Assembly Plant Quality. Here is the report:

Assembly Plant Awards

September 1, 2006

Toyota receives a total of four assembly plant quality awards for producing vehicles yielding the fewest defects, including the platinum plant quality award for its Iwate, Japan, plant, producer of the Lexus ES 330. The Iwate plant averages 32 PP100. Plant awards are based solely on scores for defects.

Among North and South American plants, the General Motors Oshawa #2 plant in Ontario, Canada, which produces the Buick LaCrosse and Pontiac Grand Prix, receives the gold plant quality award for a second consecutive year. Toyotas Georgetown, KY, plant, which produces the Avalon, Camry and Solara Coupe/Convertible, and DaimlerChryslers Windsor, Ontario, Canada plant, which produces the Pacifica, Town & Country, Caravan and Grand Caravan, tie for the silver plant quality award.

In the Asia Pacific region, Toyotas Higashi-Fuji, Japan, plant, which produces the Lexus SC 430, receives the silver plant quality award. Toyotas Kyushu, Japan, plant, which produces the Lexus IS 250/IS 350, Lexus RX 330/400h and Toyota Highlander/Highlander Hybrid, and American Hondas Saitama, Japan, plant, which produces the Acura RL, Acura TSX and Honda CR-V, tie for the bronze plant quality award.

Magna Steyr, the Graz, Austria, plant that assembles under contract for traditional manufacturers, receives the gold plant quality award for Europe. Magna Steyr produces the BMW X3, Mercedes-Benz E-Class/Wagon and the Saab 9-3 Convertible. BMWs Dingolfing, Germany, plant which produces the BMW 5, 6 and 7 Series, receives the silver plant quality award, and Porsches Valmet, Finland, plant, which produces the Cayman and Boxster, receives the bronze plant quality award.

The 2006 Initial Quality Study is based on responses from 63,607 purchasers and lessees of new 2006 model-year cars and trucks surveyed after 90 days of ownership. The redesigned IQS is based on a new 217-question batteryup from 135 in previous yearsto provide manufacturers with more information to improve problem determination and drive product improvement. The study also groups models in a revised J.D. Power and Associates vehicle segmentation list.

The 2006 study has been redesigned for the first time since 1998. Improvements to the study include: an enhanced questionnaire for owners to aid in identification of both defect and design problems; expanded coverage of new technologies; and additional details about the problems reported to help OEMs better identify how to address them.

For more detailed findings on new-vehicle quality performance, as well as model photos and specs, visit the J.D. Power Consumer Center at www.jdpower.com.

Regards,
OW

plekto · December 2006

I agree a new CTS for 30,000 would be a good deal but Cadillac will never price it that low because they want to hit you with 4000 worth of options.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/cadillac/cts/100563998/optionsresults.html?actio- - n=2

Select the 2.8L luxury package, the sport package, leather seats, and the split/fold option.

Just under $30K. They DO price it that low. And honestly, the luxury package isn't really that important. $28K without the extra bling like heated seats, homelink, and whatnot.

rockylee · December 2006

OW, that was what I was referring too.

Thanx,

Rocky

rockylee · December 2006

plekto,

I agree its a great deal.

I however think the 08' CTS will be the one worth waiting for even if its a few thousand more. I know the resale values here in the Tx panhandle are quite high on CTS's.

Rocky

plekto · December 2006

True. Like I said - it needs a V2.0 refresh badly. Less square, less stark - just polished. Kind of like the new Mini. From what I hear, it will be better than the original yet still look close enough to be the same car.

But RWD and a 5 speed gearbox certainly competes well with the imports.

rockylee · December 2006

Well the 08' CTS will have a 6 speed auto also.

Rocky

louiswei · December 2006

You are referring to the outgoing model ('06) just like you did before with the G35. I believe the previous poster (and) me were talking about the new CTS ('07). I'll bet you a CTS that you are NOT going to see a $2.5K incentive tag onto the upcoming new model. For the first couple month, they'll be flying out of the dealership at MSRP as matter of fact.

Be honest with you, I think that Caddy will have a winner if they are managed to keep the same price and add a few standard equipments (like leather seat, keyless entry/start and blue tooth) with the new CTS. The base model has to start below $30K and the 3.6 at around $34K.

rockylee · December 2006

louiswei,

no offense but I still think you mean the 2008' Cadillac CTS right ? The 2008' is going to be the new redesign.

If I do decide to buy a new CTS, I will be able to get a leg up on the new buyers paying near MSRP with my GMS.

That would be good for me on residuals for a lease.

Be honest with you, I think that Caddy will have a winner if they are managed to keep the same price and add a few standard equipments (like leather seat, keyless entry/start and blue tooth) with the new CTS. The base model has to start below $30K and the 3.6 at around $34K.

I totally agree. :shades:

Rocky

louiswei · December 2006

Yes, I meant the '08 CTS.

Also, let's not bring in any of those My-daddy's-mom's-sister's-cousin-is-a-XX-employee-so-I-get-a-discount rebate into price discussion please. The only fair way to compare price is MSRP. To me, if a manufacture has to offer any incentive over 1 grand in order to move cars is a blow in its face.

rockylee · December 2006

To me, if a manufacture has to offer any incentive over 1 grand in order to move cars is a blow in its face.

I don't know of any manufactor outside of the ultra elites that sell like that ????

Rocky

louiswei · December 2006

I don't know of any manufactor outside of the ultra elites that sell like that ????

Uh, actually A LOT of manufactures offer incentives close to 1.5 to 2 grands.

rockylee · December 2006

Okay, but wouldn't you classify a lower APR on interest a type of incentive ? It sometimes can add up in thousands of dollars saved. I also know many car manufactors that don't often give factory rebates but do compensate dealers who sell there vehicals at around invoice so whats the big difference ? One strategy is up front and the other is hidden at the dealership. :confuse:

Rocky

robbieg · December 2006

Don't most Cadillac buyers buy the moonroof, automatic, leather and most of the luxury options. If bought this way, your are over 30K even with the incentives. Also, if you buy a manual transmission luxury car without a moonroof your resale will be terrible and I would imagine it would be even worse because I don't think there are too many buyers who want a manual Cadillac. Lastly, up north, heated seats are a required feature in any luxury car. Again, I think that an automatic CTS with the typical options except for nav. should be priced from the start at less than 30,000.

blueguydotcom · December 2006

ROFL...yes most Caddy buyers don't want a manual. The idiot salesman at the Caddy dealership I visited to test drive the CTS kept telling me over and over again, "This is a Caddy. This is a luxury car."

I took out their one dusty, neglected manual and he wouldn't let up on how the car feels totally different with an automatic. This joker couldn't even drive a manual! Yeah it feels different with an automatic...anemic, boring, mundane, placid - just like the rest of the cars in this class feel sans manual.

That luxury caddy, BTW, had a price tag over 40k.

habitat1 · December 2006

"I believe Rocky was referring to the IQS rating from J.D. Power on Global Assembly Plant Quality. Here is the report:"

Thanks for the info, but it looks like Rocky needs to re-read it. Nothing about a Lansing Michigan plant period, let alone "#2 in the world".

JD Powers was not the source of the list I saw. It was an independent assessment by, if I'm not mistaken, McKinnsey and Company.

As much as I'd like to believe JD Powers - with their rating of Porsche beating Lexus for top quality brand this year - I have serious issues with their surveying methodology and extrapolated conclusions. To them, a failed transmission counts the same as a glitch in the nav system DVD. Not to me.

plekto · December 2006

RobbieG:
I sure hope you showed him what the 3.6 with the manual can do.

Yeah... just a *mite* bit different than the automatic. :P

rockylee · December 2006

Okay I was a little off......

http://www.gmcanada.com/english_migrated/about/gm_commitment/quality.html

Rocky

P.S. http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/quality/start.html

circlew · December 2006

If you look at the Vehicle Dependability for '06 out of JDP, Caddy (153 defects/100) beats BMW (212/D/100).

As you say, it depends on severity of the defects. McKinsey and Co. is a fee-based provider, so harder to get the data you mentioned.

Regards,
OW

ggesq · December 2006

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article...article_id=4444

Rankings:

1. IS 350
2. Acura TL Type-s
3. G 35 Sport

merc1 · December 2006

Without reading the article, I don't see what the hell R&T could be on to come up with that ranking. They finishing order appears to be the exact opposite of what it should be.

M

louiswei · December 2006

4.9 sec 0-60 & 14.5 quarter mile for the IS350...

:surprise: Wow, that beats C & D's 5.1 sec from last year.

ggesq · December 2006

Maybe they turned "off" VDIM :confuse:

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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