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Ivory Pearl, Blue Slate, Garnet Fire, or Black Obsidian
I like all of them, but leaning towards Ivory Pearl or Blue Slate!
By the way, Edmunds is showing the MSRP for the S60R at $38,385. With tax and title here you're at $40K if you don't add any options.
1. You only buy automatics.
2. You used Edmunds' MSRP.
Somebody is going to have a field day on this...
:P
If you only buy automatics, I can understand your less-than-stellar review the a high-pressure turbo, small displacement engine. Those are not well-suited to automatics, regardless of manufacturer or vehicle.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Pros Potent and smooth V6 engine, impressive handling and braking abilities, roomy cabin, attractive price.
Cons Stiff ride on sport-suspension-equipped models, lack of trunk space in coupe, artificial steering feel when pushed through quick transitions.
335
Pros Still the standard when it comes to perfectly sorted vehicle dynamics, potent and sophisticated engines, high-quality interior materials, wide range of configurations to suit any taste, available all-wheel drive.
Cons Costs more than most competitors, not much interior storage space.
http://bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178298
Where did he find his renewed faith in American cars???
This case proves 2 old sayings...
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
"If it works for you, stick with it"
Looks like I'll be sticking with imports for a long time to come.
But I'm now needing an entry-level sport sedan/coupe in the 5-8 year old range. I have the money, but I really only want to spend $12-15K.
Top of the list so far(all manual):
- Older IS300 with.
- Wide range of Mercedes. AMG and so on. Problem is that 8-10 years old is worrying me. I did see a couple of S500 coupes for under $20K, though...(grin) The C230K sedan also is attractive. Same as the C230K coupe, but a sedan.
- Used CTS 3.6/stickshift
- Celica GT-S(okay, kind of different, but sweet car anyways - only fwd car I really loved to drive)
- Used RX-8.
- Used BMW - no idea what models are reliable/good used.
- Volvo S60/S70/C70 - T5 or R
- Saab 9-5
The criteria in general is stickshift(non negotiable), RWD(Celica and Saab is about it, otherwise non negotiable) and a good engine. Supercharged 4, V6, etc. Inline 6 preferred, of course. Perhaps this is a new thread, but it sort of fits and well, creating a new one just adds clutter.
So.. same topic, used... what's the best deal out there?
If you want more punch, I've also seen the previous generation 5-Series (E34) 1995 540i 6-Speeds under $15,000, and that my friends is a fun car. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I searched nationwide on three databases and found *one* S500 Coupe from the mid 90s with a manual transmission - evidently brought over from Europe or something and converted to U.S. specs. Just got me thinking is all.
The maintainence is going to be rough on any large Mercedes, especially 9 years old. I even found a local dealer who was "willing" to let me have a 2001 ML320 for $9K(?) due to the horrid reliability. I passed, of course. I even looked at a couple of older 928s, but they are very very pricey to maintain. And 10-12 years old is more than pushing it for electrical and emissions equipment.
The T5 and R Volvos are only about 1-2K apart in value and they've been making them since oh, 1998 or so. I've had a sporty Volvo in the past and it was fun, but FWD and 200+HP isn't my piece of cake, either, given how Volvos have noticeable torque-steer when the turbo kicks in. Finding a S80 from Europe/Canada with stickshift is unobtainium as well. Maybe one every six months shows up for sale in the U.S.(only a couple of hundred over a decade were brought over this way via the European delivery program)
The CTS... yeah - $17K was the lowest I could haggle on one last week, but I just... I've been burnt by GM "quality" so many times... My last pre-Ford/still Swedish designed and built Volvo was bulletproof by comparison. Shoot, my dad just spent $750 on his old Buick for electrical. Now, it's been very reliable up until now, but the electrical/sensors on the engine are starting to go at only 8 years old. 3 coil packs, a new MAF, and a couple of other minor things.
The WRX is out. Sat in one and it was just nasty. Very much love/hate ergonomics in it. The Forester was fine, though. I just worry about reliability is all.(though my cousin's new WRX seems to be perfectly fine - and fast as stink)
BMW - my knowledge ends at about 1995.
Now if only something like the Celica existed with RWD, four doors, and had a back seat big enough to fit my 8yr old son. I'd SO love a 350Z if it had a back seat. Looks like it could easily fit one, but the geniuses at Nissan decided to fill the rear in with empty space/a shelf the size of a couple of huge subwoofers instead.
So far the C230/C320 is edging towards the top due to their poor resale value. :P $12995 asking price at about 5 local dealers for a 2003 coupe. The 230 sedan or 320 coupe is $15K - and that's before haggling.
EDIT:
Concerning the BMW 5 series:
2000 528i $11,376 $12,975 $14,702
Like the price, but how reliable are they? Should I get the V8 model instead(though it seems awfully heavy at 3600+ lbs)
Wow, I like the ergonomics of the STI. It's a big hardcore though. Foresters 2003 and earlier had some reliability issues that were straightened out in 2004. The XT turbo is also as fast as stink.
One of my local dealers has an '05 Saab 9-3 Linear for $15,900....
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2000 528i $11,376 $12,975 $14,702
Like the price, but how reliable are they? Should I get the V8 model instead(though it seems awfully heavy at 3600+ lbs)"
The 2000 E39 is considered to be very reliable with but a few problem areas (ball joints, radiator and water pump) and even those have since been mitigated with replacement parts.
Given that my normal 12,000-15,000 mile commute year (a measure that had been very stable until June of 2005) has been upset (I've driven over 50,000 miles since that point) I'm looking for a 2000 528i 5-Speed with both the Premium Package, Sport Package and "M" interior (sport seats and steering wheel). Cars so equipped typically bottom out at about $14,000 and are very few and far between.
If/when I find one, the first things I'll be doing to mine will be to go through the front suspension, replace the water pump with a new all-metal one, replace the plastic tanked radiator with an all metal one (assuming this hasn't been done already), flush the cooling and brake systems, fit a set of low dust/dustless brake pads and new rotors, and any other cosmetic items that I find wanting.
Once gone through I figure I can get an easy 150,000 to 200,000 miles with only minimal (meaning scheduled) maintenance and few if any significant repairs.
Regarding the V8, fun though they may be, there is one key element that I'm having a tough time getting over. Even though both the I6 and the V8 engines are have aluminum blocks, the I6 sports steel sleeved cylinder bores while the V8 sports silicone impregnated cylinder bores. While I have no real proof of this, I suspect that the I6 mill will last longer.
Another thing to consider when comparing I6 to V8 engined 5-Series cars is the steering system. On the E34 and E39 models, there wasn't enough room to fit a Rack and Pinion system to the V8 models and as such they have a more conventional Recirculating Ball system. I much prefer the nimbleness of the I6 models due to their lighter weight and their Rack and Pinion steering.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Of all the cars you mentioned you're gonna get great bang for your buck and hardcore reliability out of the subaru lineup.
I'd avoid BMW like the plague. Fun cars under warranty but I'm having trouble believing anyone would want to own one out of warranty. The horror stories of all my friends, coworkers and family regarding their BMWs. Yikes. Fun cars, just engineered by people who don't give a damn about long term reliability or good parts.
The CTS's have had fairly good reliability (except those differentials) as far as their track records. I read about one automatic tranny failure at 120k. You could probably do a little research to see how long the clutches last in the manuals.
It does, but it is called the Infiniti G35 Coupe...
How about VW Golf R32/GTI? Of course, reliability...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/showtop10.cgi?31
It's the only sedan to belong on the list. Putting S60R in the same league as Corvette & the very best Porsche in terms of aerodynamics
BMW 3 series comes in at 0.33 while the S60R comes in at 0.29
This put the S60R in a category of its own a super-sport-performance sedan with world-class safety
I did see the MR2 Turbo on that list also. What a fine machine that was.
Toyota Prius - 0.26
Lexus LS430 - 0.26
Toyota Camry Hybrid - 0.27
Infiniti G35 - 0.27 (0.26 with aero package)
Saab 9-3 - 0.28
Toyota Camry/Lexus ES - 0.28
Honda Accord Hybrid - 0.29
Lexus LS400 - 0.29
Infiniti G35 (2007) - 0.29
Other than these (and a few other) areas, the Prius is a fine alternative to the Bristol.
So picking the Volvo S60R's Cd to proclaim it to be in the company of supercars would be like me saying that because my waisteline is roughly the same as Tiger Woods, I'm in the same league of golfer.
My M3 turned 19 last month, and it is easily the most satisfying car I have ever driven (and I've driven the STi, C6 Corvette, Cayman S, and others). How else does one own an uncompromised, RWD 2700 lb sports car with a hand-built, 250hp race engine - all with a roomy back seat and trunk?
I don't plan on ever selling it.
What you talkin bout, Willis?
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/me bows
Rebuilt 18 months ago, only genuine OE BMW Sport Evo parts were used (pistons, cams, crank, valve springs, AFM, airbox, 48mm throttle bodies, injectors, etc.). Of course it has the 50mm Gruppe A (rally) header, and Supersprint center and cat-back exhaust.
It has a custom mapped (Iigomotive) chip and revs to 8000 RPM.
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Flash 11 back from the land of the car that cannot be mentioned
By the way, test drove a fully loaded TL-S, I am converted, I don't know what came over me, absolutely loved it...the Salesman wants to sell me a 1 y.o. for $33K I think I can talk him down further, he also threw in free oil changes for 4 years plus free tires for life. Whad'ya think, try for a lower price ??
No, the previous owner (who is a good friend of mine) did a lot of the work himself. Besides the engine, the car got new paint, new tranny and clutch, new driveshaft and differential, new suspension (shock mounts, control arms, end links, bushings, etc.), new wheels (E39 Style 5), new interior, and an Alpine & A/D/S audio system.
It's basically a brand new car (with 193,000 miles on the odo).
http://www.supercarworld.com/cgi-bin/criteria.cgi
Yes there are other cars with good drag coefficient # but the Prius, Camry, Infiniti and other cars don't fit the criteria to be classified as or included in world supercar database whereas the Volvo S60R does
The BMW 3 Series and Audi A4 are included in the directory but their number are not high enough to make the list. Just one little fact that is impressive about the Volvo S60R
Low drag is used to measure aerodynamics of car, lower # lead to better fuel efficiency. For Formula 1, the requirement is different, fuel efficiency is not a factor but preventing it from going airborne at high speed is hence higher drag to minimize lift and increase downforce
Why am I not surprised...
S60R: 18/24
335i: 20/29
Volvo
BMW
You sell used cars for living?
As only the BMW M3 not the 3 Series in general is included in the world supercar directory. For Audi only the S4 make the list
So According to EPA
S60R: 18/24 MPG, Annual Green House emmission 8.90 tons
M3: 16/23 MPG, Annual Green House emmission 9.70 tons
S4: 15/21 MPG, Annual Green House emmission 10.80 tons
S60R
M3
S4
So yes the S60R achieves better fuel economy, cost less to operate, and a better car for the environment. And yes lower cf contributes a big part to better fuel economy (ie prius, camry, accord, etc...) Lower cf is part of the reason why the Corvette achieves 18/28mpg
You can't have it both ways. The S60 is not an M3 at Accord prices. Performance numbers of the 335i beat every performance number of the S60R. Even if they are tied in some areas, the 335i still wins according to the EPA.
Maybe to clarify you would like to post the best performance numbers you saw for the S60R and the best performance numbers you saw for the 335i. Don't forget to include links.
By conveniently not posting any performance numbers for both of them, you get to say what you want without it really being the truth.
Here is some information I found in 2 seconds. Note Edmunds does not think this is in the same league as the M3.
http://www.edmunds.com/new/research/volvo/s60r.html
Once behind the wheel of the Volvo S60 R, low-end torque is prodigious and acceleration remains strong almost all the way to its 6,800-rpm redline. It is not quite in the same league as Audi's S4, BMW's M3 and Mercedes' C55 AMG, but it's closer than we ever thought Volvo car would get. And thanks to the continuously variable valve timing, efficient turbocharger and twin intercoolers, throttle response is excellent with minimal turbo lag. Volvo claims a 5.4-second 0-to-60-mph time for the S60 R. For higher-level handling, Volvo has fitted the R cars with its Four-C (Continuously Controlled Chassis Concept) system, which combines an electronically controlled all-wheel-drive system with a semiactive, continuously adjustable suspension system.
http://www.modernracer.com/volvos60r.html
Top speed : 148 mph(electronically limited)
0-60 mph : 5.4 sec.(manual), 6.0 sec.(auto)
0-¼ mile : 14.0 sec @ 101.0 mph
60-0 braking distance : 118 ft
200 ft skidpad : 0.88 g
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/26/the-beast-within-bmw-335i-sedan-hits-sixty-in- - - - -4-8-seconds/
They managed a 4.8 to be exact on their way to a quarter in 13.5 seconds at 106 mph. In case you aren't paying close attention, that's what the current M3 does. And with 3,600 pounds to tote around, we suspect that the horsepower from that turbo six is probably closer to the M3's 333 than to 300.
Edmunds own review:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=117669
Of note: edmunds said the 335i was .1 second behind the S4 given the S4s 120 hp advantage.
Seems like a dated benchmark, considering how many cars easily reach or beat that today. I mean, does a Hyundai Sonata really possess "supercar" acceleration?
Out of curiosity, I perused the websites list of "all supercars" in their database. I found the Dodge Ram SRT-10 and Lexus SC430 among other surprises!
And I'm still scratching my head at the exclusion of the Toyota RAV4 V-6 from the supercar ranks...
Be careful with the "tires for life". Make sure you read all the fine print. Some dealers require you to do all the "dealer recommended" service to get the tires. They always make it up somewhere.