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I guess your back to blatantly disregarding the hosts request to keep the MKZ out of here huh?
Just because you hate american cars and the CTS will challenge the best from Europe and Japan doesn't mean it's a pseudo-performance car. The MKZ is just as quick as a Acura TL, and you want the MKZ banned and the TL to stay ? I will say one thing good about you that you don't try to hide your bias.
I'm following the rules given to me today. Why don't you create another forum where you can specifically list the cars you want to talk about. You don't have to click on the CTS or MKZ icon either.
Rocky
If you are talking about mainstream luxury performance cars(note the lack of "entry-level", then you've come to the wrong discussion. Complaining that the CTS and MKZ don't "fit" - they plainly do. Welcome to the bottom-end/entry-level of luxury performance cars.
IIRC, based upon the original posting, this comes down to:
- 25-35K after rebates - definately not $40K+, that's the next level)
- has more luxury than an Accord/Camry/Pontiac/etc.
- has a sporty suspension and good handling. Well, better than a Buick or Camry in any case.
- manual transmission is an option.
- No convertibles. 4 doos preferred - 2 okay if it's like the old 2-door Volvo sedans(it's the exact same car as a sedan, just with two doors instead of 4). No hatchbacks, crossovers, or simmilar, of course.
Pretty much anything else is okay. Note the utter lack of FWD/RWD/AWD, size(within reason - a DTS isn't going to really work - lol), or brand. Traction control, stability control, navigation, alloy wheels, leather... also not on the list. Nice, but optional.
A base 3 series is acceptable, for instance - the upper-end 3 probably not, though - it's just too expensive for a first time buyer in this segment to usually buy. OTOH, if BMW is running a killer financing program that get the upper-end 3 series down around the same payments as $35K...
Btw, yes, the MKZ technically fits here. It's not what most of use would LIKE to see from Ford as an effort, but it passes the required minimums.
Also remember that just because a car is included here, you don't have to talk about it if you don't want to, and you don't have to respond to posts that do.
sorry, Rock, but I have to agree here.
no manual gear selection = no sport (and no, the selectable slushboxes that they try to pass off as sporty these days don't qualify either)
Unfortunately, the standard TL no longer has a manual, but since the Type S is still well under $40k, I think it is still valid.
anyway, discuss what you will. my opinion is what it is.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I owned a Lincoln LS and it was great but lacking is some key performance areas. Why did Lincoln "Kill IT"? Because the platform was too old, probably. I assume the MKZ is the answer.
All I can tell you is I can feel the development in this BMW unlike any other nameplate I owned from GM/Ford/DCX.
Look at it like this: Camaro - Killed - Resurrected
Firebird - Killed, Grand Prix - Never developed - Killed, maybe resurrected? Ford Taurus - (considered the SHO but abysmal quality track record). - Killed - Resurrected as 500?
There is no lifeline to truly evolve each model and keep loyalty! How can you keep brand loyalty when you are so inconsistent?
The Corvette and Mustang are the only evolved nameplates in the US!!!!!!! Muhahahahaha! Just kidding.
Challenger - Killed - Resurrected for Shipo??
Regards,
OW
You'll note that the Saabs and Volvos pretty much can come with stick, though, so many of them would qualify. A nice step above your typical car.
The Grand Prix with the V8 certainly has the power and suspension to qualify, but it's eerily like the RX-8. It's a blast to drive, but utterly fails the "luxury" part. It's most like a entry-level-plain-as-vanilla-sports-sedan. All function and nothing nice about it.
Nothing anout it where you grin a bit to yourself knowing you have a better car than most people AND one that you could feel okay with having a vallet park it.
GM - other than the CTS, isn't doing very well here. Few manuals, and either it's de-contented to the point of rental-fleet starkness(and leather seats alone don't fix this - something Mercedes should note with its C-Class lately), or it has suspension that's as soft as a NERF toy.
I think Top Gear(U.K. auto show) said it best.
"The Americans just don't seem to get "luxury". Their idea of it is to just make it bigger."
The Grand Prix certainly isn't a ELLPS. However if the new G8 had a badge other than a Pontiac it would be a ELLPS, because it's interior is just as good as if not better than the new Mercedes C-class which will be considered a ELLPS.
Rocky
Disagree. Pontiac does not produce luxury vehicles.
You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion. Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/02/g8_interior.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/12337/2008-mercedes-benz-c-class.html (click photo's)
Well IMHO I would have to give the luxury nod to the Pontiac G8 and it's what $15-20K cheaper and offers you world class performance. I agree the badge is the only thing it's missing from making it a ELLPS. I guess if you care more about product than the badge the choice is clearly easy between these two. :shades:
You know, you could fire up your own thread and include whatever vehicles you want in that discussion
Yeah I could but why ? I enjoy this one way to much. You could also do the same.
Almost every manufacturer has an option for leather, having a leather option with some hp behind it doesn't make that vehicle an ELLPS.
Well that is true and I agree it takes more than just leather and power to be a ELLPS. I often think some get to caught up with badges instead of letting the product do the talking. I do see good product coming from non traditional luxury brands giving the traditonal luxury brands fits and my links from above is just one example.
Rocky
ummmm... i thought that was his point. "If it had a badge OTHER than pontiac" ...
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I appreciate the kindness of you pointing that out.
Rocky
Wanna know what else it doesn't have insofar as it relates to "transmissions?" It doesn't have a "manumatic". Even the ES 350 has one :surprise:
It must be built to be luxurious, smaller than a Buick/midsize car if possible(though modern technology has enabled larger cars to qualify, smaller and lighter is always preferred), handle well, and have a manual gearbox.
The IS350 becomes just another luxury sedan. And it costs a lot more than $40K by the time you get it out the door.
CarsDirect Price: $37,140
- this is a stripped, no options base model IS350. It's clearly moved itself out of this segment. You'll never, ever find one, though, without at least 2-3 option packages, so $40K is closer to a realistic price.
Badge like what? Lexus? The interior photos shows an ugly interior. IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The G8, isn't a ELLPS because of it's badge. If you put a different emblem like a luxury nameplate badge on it then I think it has enough credibility on interior/exterior + gadgets to be a ELLPS. The G8, has the highest quality interior to ever be installed in a Pontiac car. This is all good news from GM, because it raises the bar another step higher for the comapany. While many will argue the Mercedes, has more luxury which may be true a unbiased person would be blinde to not appreciate the G8's fit and finish for a car starting out at around $26K and will top out around $33K. I do think some ELLPS buyers will cross shop the G8 because it offers a lot of value. The 2008' Cadillac CTS is a ELLPS no matter how you slice. I should be shocked that a few won't acknowledge it as such but deep down I'm not a bit surprised. :surprise:
Rocky
Rocky
That is 62 more horsepower than your beloved BMW 335i bluedotguy. I will acknowledge the 335i from a size and weight standpoint will out run the G8 GT but once the Holden Commodore HSV/GXP version arrives that will all change as Motor Trend reported a 502 hp. 7.0 LS-7 V8 is in the works. I suppose that also will be considered underpowered as well. :confuse:
Rocky
No matter how much power, it's just too darn big too.
Rocky
porky
cramped
expensive
Brand is all important.
A manual transmission is not at all important to make the cut.
Yeah it might be porky but it's one of the safest cars you can own. Cramped when compared to a 335i or IS 350 ? It's like a limo in size. It only gets expensive when you add every option including AWD. It's still is less than a fully loaded 335i or IS 350.
Rocky
Rocky
Yet all three of those aren't entry-level - they belong in the regular or mainstream luxury performance car category - based upon price alone if nothing else.
In any case, those vehicles are definitely staples of this discussion.
- The IS 350? No stickshift. Gone. If Lexus added manual back for 2008, which given the upcoming CTS, they might, I'd gladly welcome it back. There's ZERO point in having 300HP in a smaller car like this and castrating it with a less than great automatic.
- The G35 sport has manual and is right at $33K or so. It fits this discussion. It's also nicely equipped as is - you don't need $6K in options to make it a nice car.
Cars Direct Target Price: $32,950
- The 335i isn't BMWs entry-level offering in this category, so it fails based upon that criteria.
CarsDirect Price: $38,560 - this is for one with vinyl seats and not even the upgraded suspension that you'd want - no - NEED to make it stand out from the competition.
The focus needs to be on "least expensive luxury performance sedans" - and 40K+ isn't being frugal - or sometihng that an average first-time buyer in this segment really wants to pay.
A first time buyer who wants a more sporty 2007 vehicle than a family sedan but doesn't want to pay over $30K out the door is out of luck in this segment.
As for the 335i, the 330 is BMW's entry-level option according to them. If you start letting in upper-level offerings of simmilar cars, well, then we might as well put the CTS-V or the S60R in as well...
P.S. while $30K may be hard to do, 30K or so for a base price before options is very much the goal of many buyers. ie - they'll squeeze up to 35K or so, but take the 335i - you can easily bloat it up to 45K or more, which is just not in the same price-range.
The CTS-V and S60R are clearly overkill for this particular conversation.
I think it would be a good thing if we talked about the cars listed at the top of this page and stop worrying about what should or should not be included in this discussion that has done just fine for a very long time within its defined, yet reasonably elastic given what has changed over time, parameters.
It would be great if anyone who wants to change the topic goes ahead and fires up another. We can never have too many places to debate these vehicles, eh?
Edit (in response to your edit): As I've said, a five year old post defining the pricepoint needs to be taken with several inflated grains of salt. There is no reason to hold on to a five year old $40k ceiling.
Why don't you start your own discussion with the makes, models and price of your choice? This way you can exclude the upper echelon of the bottom rung.
The G35 sedan, the CTS, the S60, and 330i, and a slew of others aren't even $35K, and are fine examples of this type of car. A couple of them, like the CTS, start at under $30K. 40K is still more than enough to buy a few options and get it out the door, IMO.
Most people here want to raise that limit for one and only one reason, the 335i. But that's as unfair as the IS350 is, because the IS250 is clearly what Lexus is offering as their entry-level sports sedan.
And the 330i isn't a half-bad car, either, make no mistake about it. It runs neck and neck with many of the others.
Please stop talking about the 330 you cannot buy a 2007 330 sedan or coupe. The 335i leaves 'em in the dust.
I used an inflation calculator and the $30000 and $40000 went to $33333 and $45000 approx. That's about 2% per year.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,