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We agree to disagree pal.
Rocky
I'll quit griping, sorry. :mad:
Rocky
President Bush does have the power to make it happen. He can draw up legistlation for price controls.
I can guarantee you that the service stations might say $1.75/gallon but there would be a sign below that said "NO GAS".
I can solve that problem, he can go federalize the oil refineries and throw those buttheads behind bars. The FBI with a internal audit would find very easily enough dirt to throw most of the board of executives behind bars for life. :mad:
The government tried to freeze the price of gas during the first oil crisis of the 70's. The result was very limited supplies. It would take oil prices of around $30/barrel to achieve gas at $1.75/gallon.
That's awful funny, oil was selling for around that mark back in 97' and I was paying $0.70-$0.80 cents a gallon. :confuse:
Oil is a global commodity. Should Exxon/Mobil sell their oil to U.S. refineries for $30/barrel when China is willing to pay $75/barrel?
You are correct, but at the smae time we knew about Ethanol and other forms of energy over the last 40-50 years and "Big Oil" has squashed all attempts of folks trying to introduce these new alternative fuels. What do you think, Ethanol was a product that has been just recently invented ? Come-0n use common sense. You appear to be a sharp guy.
I wouldn't want you to be the CEO of any company that I owned stock in.
You are probably correct. I have a big heart and would treat my workforce very good. I don't have the "icewater"
in my veins to run a sweatshop to make a extra buck. I care way to much about other people and have to much morales to go set up a child-labor sweat shop in china,
to make record profits for my stakeholders. I also don't have it in me to look someone in the eyes and blatenly lie, cheat, steal, brown nose to get ahead.
Rocky
P.S. Gas in Amarillo, I heard dropped $4-6 cents at most places. Maybe the oil cartel is going to give us a few weeks of modest relief until the summer driving months hit ? :surprise:
Who are you fooling ? The oil cartel has baughten the Dept. of Energy, thus the internal combustion engine is still around when it should of been replaced 40 years ago. :mad:
Rocky
Come-On gagrice. I think your blowing smoke on that claim. :confuse: I've never seen a $0.50 difference in the same town daily. I've seen where a few gas stations lowered it on purpose for a few hours for a promotion and advertise it on the radio. :confuse:
Rocky
BTW- your post is 100% true. Good Post gtgtcobra :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
I think that a recent post of yours also acknowledged that as the price of oil increased more sources of oil would be financially viable to pursue. That is the way it works and fixing the price will not allow this to happen. I think you also mentioned that you had a relative who could make a profit if oil hit $100/barrel. So how would this work. He could charge $100 for his oil because that is a fair profit while oil producers with lower costs should charge less. For instance Saudi Arabia can pump oil at around $5 a barrel. Maybe they should sell it for $6, that's a fair mark-up. If something like this makes sense to you then you have no grasp of how the commodities market works.
Another thing to keep in mind. At $100/barrel consumers will pay $2.50 a gallon just to cover the oil costs. Add to that 45 cents for fuel taxes and another 50 cents for refining, distribution, marketing, etc. and you are up to $3.45. My point is that our current gas prices are very much in line with the cost of oil.
You don't want to live like people in China yet you oppose the free market system, which is largely responsible for our higher standard of living.
Are you a homeowner? If so your house has probably appreciated at least 100% in less than 10 years. When it comes time to sell will you ask market price or what you consider to be a fair profit?
I do agree with you on one point. I think that the oil industry lobbyists have probably played a big role in our lack of a credible energy policy over the last 40 years. Unfortunately an effective energy policy would have involved some level of conservation. Meaning it probably wouldn't result in keeping the price of fuel artificially low so that people, like yourself, could easily afford to drive around in big, gas guzzling vehicles
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have nice cars, but justify it by cutting back in other areas. I would never have an SUV. Never wanted one. My mortgage is less than many people's rent. I live in a modest, energy-efficient home and even have a large credit on my natural gas bill.
But back to topic (sorry host):
Petrol prices in downtown Chi: $3.29/3.40/3.50
By the job (burbs): $2.89/2.99/3.09 to $2.99/$3.19/$3.29
So yes Rock, we can and do have $.40 - .$50 difference all the time here. Was down in TX a couple weeks ago, Brownsville and Houston, then went to Mexico for a week and back to Texas, fuel was going for $2.56 regular.
Plus = Max out your credit card
Premium = Take out a mortgage
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/04/25/big_engine_sales.reut/index.html
And then they cry about how the whole world (and big oil) is gouging them. Its like cokeheads blaming Columbian warlords coz their mothers' medicine money is being wasted. Jeez.
Anyways, here in Richmond VA 3.29 for Premium. On the brighter side, I bought a motorcycle this weekend, 50mpg and tons of fun. That should be it for the rest of this summer
people who buy V-8 cars for the most part are buying vehicles $25K and up. The difference between the gas they'd burn in a V-8 compared to say a V-6 Impala or camry, might be $50-$75/month. That is not much money these days. I get 24 mpg mixed driving on my 5.7L Firebird. I'm not going to save much going to a V-6, or buying a 4-cyl Civic Si.
YEs....SUVs get relatively lousy gas mileage...like those 1950 and 1960 and 1970s american cars...all below 20 mpg.
My point is that the increase in prices is due ::
1- to increase in amount of people in the world.
2- increase in the number of people who want to drive.
3- increase in number of commute miles driven.
4- increase in number of recreational miles driven.
5- decrease in oil supply.
6- geopolitical situations
7- market forces and responsive manipulations.
8- increase in producing larger hp engines, instead of more economical engines.
9- people's driving behaviours. Less racing, idling, drifting, cruising, commuting, , but more carpooling, grouping of errands, etc....
I used to work in gasoline/crude oil consulting. China used to export their light gas ( 50 octane) to us...and it was offloaded at Carqinez , near Rodeo, Ca. That was in 1987. Nowadays they are buying all the crude and gas they can get their hands on...as is India and many other countries.
What you are adding into your gas tank is contributing to the problem. Any scapegoating of any subgruop is, in my opinion, a distraction of the real issues involved.
How many cars do you see today that has a solo driver ?
In Taiwan, most solo or 2 people families have a moped. They get something like 90 miles per gal....
We all need to conserve and downgrade our usage of gas and energy overall. Even turning off unused lights will result in savings. Buying a more economical vehicle is but one of the many things that need to be done by all....
scapegoating one segment like the SUV is just that...scapegoating....
Tomorrow we get 5 cents off customer appreciation day...at the local 76 station...
Gallon is non existant in canada as everything is in litres or imperial gallon. Difference between imperial gallon and american gallon is .2 litres (4 litres vs 3.8 ltr in US) So its $4.30 per imperial gallon.
So why dont you folks just stop cribbing for gas prices under 3 bucks. Just look at the poor saps up north and take some solace. :sick:
In Taiwan, most solo or 2 people families have a moped. They get something like 90 miles per gal....
We all need to conserve and downgrade our usage of gas and energy overall. Even turning off unused lights will result in savings. Buying a more economical vehicle is but one of the many things that need to be done by all....
Good point. I am stuck with a v6 which is adamant about giving no more than 23 mpg. So, the solution is simply DRIVE LESS.
As a side note, I need to find more cheaper car insurance which will show more savings than my gas bill.
Scapegoating is not my intent. But I do intend to look at the reality that many of vehicle purchases have been irrationally uneconomical for the country's gasoline consumption based on the use of those _large_ vehicles.
If they had been limited instead of allowed to burgeon t he last decade or two we'd be using much less gasoline. The demand would be down. If the refineries ahd been built to increase that step in marketing the cost would be lower. If the EPA had been more reasonable about what has to be blended into fuels, we'd not have the changeover glitch that we're having with ethanol. Remember last September when they relaxed the requirements for the polluted areas due to shorages and just gave them gasoline? Did anyone cite increased air pollution then?
The problem with _large_ vehicles is that they are often driven by one person going at much above the speed limit and above the other vehicle's speed in the region. They are not being used as a work vehicle, i.e., a pickup truck used to haul tools for a construction person or similar worker; they are being driven to commute from Dayton/Cinci at 80 mph. That is consuming great extra amounts of fuel.
It may be nice that the driver can easily afford the extra $ cost, but the country can't afford the extra useage. They are imposing a supply tax on the lower income people who need their cars to commute. That tax is in the form of increased prices now because of the high demand.
We need to find a way to charge a different cost for the two different types of users.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am not going to get pissed off at our american addiction to fuel because that does not make fuel any les expensive, does not make my fuel efficiency any better, but what I am doing to save fuel is going to work and back (I have a 50 mile round trip commute) and anything that I need, be it food, shopping, libations, movies we walk to or it is in a 2 mile radius. I shop online for all my cosmetics, and some clothing.
We have saved alot of money because we eat at home more often, No more impulse trips to the mall, and less wear on my car.
Oil company make 26 cents
Gas station makes 5 cents
Government(states and feds)Taxes 16 cents
Oil Shareholders dividends(total) only 1/15 cents.
Who works harder for the money? Not Government
Who takes the risks? Not Government
Do I really care? Not for government.
Also, am in agreement with veedubgirl in curtailing usage. My work round-trip is 36.3 miles, so I use a little less than 1 gallon each way. And that's all I drive now. I make sure whenever I have to shop for food, medicine, whatever, it's on the way home. I start my day early so I leave b4 morning and evening rush (and if I don't get out on time, I just wait until traffic dies down in the evening, then I make my escape). Don't eat out period...well I went over all this before. Basically the rising gas prices are making me save even more money than I was before which I am putting towards paying my house off early and more toward retirement.
Play the game, don't let the game play you.
If a person driving a Toyota echo scrams about high gas prices, it still makes some sense. The poor guy is trying to save as much money as possible. It definitely hurts him. And that is how most negative reactions keep getting directed towards one segment.
What all the people crying about high prices dont realize is simple economics. Irrespective of oil companies / govt / additives / etc etc oil is a limited natural resource and demand is ever growing. In a socialistic model you would artificially keep prices low till you cou no longer do that and then face a sudden meltdown, which would devastate everything.
THe gradual price increases are important because they are signalling something very important. Cut down on your usage. This is a natural equilibrium. If gas reaches $5, many people will have to back off and once again the price will ease down. This is how a natural system works.
And for all the govt and oil company bashers, what is your alternative? Price gas at a dollar a gallon so that all people can upgrade to battle tanks? Spend trillions of dollars to invade and capture all the oilfields of the world and suck them dry (and then hit chaos 20 years down the line)?
The problem is two fold - an extreme sense of entitlement and denial of any responsibility.
I have my lavish lifestyle and I will maintain it. I am entitled to it and anything that changes it (or increases the cost of my maintaining it) it unfair and unacceptable.
I am not responsible for anything. Everyone else and everything else (govt / oil company / politicians / car manufacturers / China / Arabs) is responsible.
I remember back in the mid and late 1970's when Ford, Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge and Chevrolet all started cutting the horsepower on a lot of the cars by 1/2. Maybe this is what's going to start happening again with oil prices being at $3 and $4 a gallon.
I myself love a lot of horsepower in my cars, but I am NOT willing to give up the cars which I currently own. Both cars are paid off completely and I don't have any car payments. Both vehicles do around 20 mpg and one of them has over 260hp with 302 ft./lbs. of torque. I don't plan on giving up and selling my 260hp car even if gasoline prices go up to $5 a gallon. I love my cars too much to get rid of them. I already have been driving a lot less within the last 3 years ever since I got laid off of work, so I am saving myself tons of money by driving less. We currently use my wife's 2.7 Liter 20mpg Hyundai Santa Fe 95% of the time and are trying to save money on gasoline.
Like I said, the ONLY way for automobiles to become more fuel efficient is for automakers to build SMALLER ENGINES and to cut back the horsepower 50% on most of these gas guzzlers that are on the road today. When the Americans and the Germans and Japanese were building low horsepower vehicles all thruout the mid and late 1970's and 1980's and early 1990's, cars were boring to drive. They had no pizzaz and no power. They were not fast, but were only economical.I hated owning a sloooow car. I am against auto manufacturers building slow cars with low horsepower. I feel that Americans are being cheated if the horsepower on today's 260hp and 300hp cars are cut back to only 130-150hp. This will take all the fun out of owning a high horsepower vehicle with tons of torque in it. That's why I am going to hold on to my 4.6L, 260hp 2001 Mustang GT. I don't want to give up the horsepower and torque for another car that has low horsepower and with and anemic engine.
Is there a Fed.limiter on this stuff, or are commodities geeks free to just push all the right buttons and pick the nerve-wracking event of the day as an excuse and have a hey-day on ghastly prices? Or is there some built-in sanity to this game and it's fully in effect as I type this post out? Thoughts on this?
BTW-please go beyond simply explaining that "demand drives supply, thus it's OK to articially jack up ghastly prices to rip off people that really must need/demand all that ghastly " explanation. It seems so Economics 101-spacey and not a good explanation to me. Real answers please, answers that work.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Short answer? No, they can't.
Long(er) answer? They are commodity TRADERS. In order for trader 'A' to sell gas at $6/gallon, they've got to find trader 'B' willing to PAY $6/gallon.
It's the same reason why commodity traders can't simply jack up the price of crude overnight to $200/bbl. Sure, a trader (or 10-20 traders) can ASK for $200/bbl. But they got to find some other group of traders willing to buy it at an inflated price. And the only reason why traders may buy it at $200/bbl (or gasoline at $6/gallon) is if they think the price would go EVEN HIGHER.
Of course, why should traders buy gasoline futures at $6/gallon when they can buy it all day long at 1/3 of that?
Today's most expensive gas in Seattle - $3.23. The Chevron I buy from is at 2.95/3.05/3.15 - up 6 cents across the board from 48 hours ago.
The general mpg on a trip is 25 to 31 mpg. I think for 4,300 lbs that is pretty good.
As to manual transmissions, I do not see that happening in large numbers. If people are still glued to the powerful V-8 engines they sure are not going to change to shifting just to make such a little difference on mpg.
Farout
Midgrade: $ 3.15/gallon
Premium: $ 3.25/gallon
Diesel: $ 3.05/gallon
And from my obsrviations, British petroleum (BP) that bought out Amoco, consistently has the highest gas prices and they are always the first to raise them and by more than anybody else.
IIRC I was only paying around $1.95/gal(or less) for 87 no-lead when we left Missouri in May '05.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Yep...I agree with you. I had a v6 acura TL....and only got 23 mixed driving also. Now we have a Odyssey that shuts off 3 cylinders when not needed...but do not know how long the engine will last.
As a side note, I need to find more cheaper car insurance which will show more savings than my gas bill.
I agree also. I used to have 20th century, but they don't insure Porsches...so they may give you the best price ( no need to fix them expensive performance cars) . Then we got GEICO...which was great. NOw we have Liberty Mutual...which has even better rates...
they all beat AAA or All State or StateFarm.
Happy motoring....
Lots in Toronto's roads....not yet certified for USA.
http://www.thesmart.ca/index.cfm?id=4802
I see something hypocritical in that...
I am as free to disparage as you are to use a H1 as a 300 mile/day commuter.
You have a right to choose as you please...along with that does not come a right to be immune from criticism or question. Money does not buy you that right.
"ANd some people just enjoy the ride and height of an SUV. "
And some people just...uhh...have things to compensate for...
" Almost all people I spoke to loved the new freedoms and opportunities. "
Shame they lag so far behind when it comes to human rights and basic freedom that they can't be considered part of the free world. But things are just fine in China! And if we all subscribe to some wacky far-rightist libertarian economic scheme, deregulate our labor to compete with the third world, and defer 'n conform, everything will be just fine here too.
FIN:: I see something hypocritical in that...
me: why are you so critical of everything ? why do you have to disparage what others do ? The hypociritical thing is the one who criticizes others' use of gas...then turns around and goes off burning gas on pleasure trips and cruising and buying unnecessary items...eh ?
I am as free to disparage as you are to use a H1 as a 300 mile/day commuter.
That is their right and choice...and sure...freedom of speech is good. But there is also something called courtesy and being nice. The person who bought the H1 may love the vehicle...as much as the guy who races around town cruising and showing off in an econobox....
You have a right to choose as you please...along with that does not come a right to be immune from criticism or question. Money does not buy you that right.
sure..it is a right to criticize people. Sure ...it is a right to be petty and small minded. Sure ....it is a right to only see one side...and not care about whether others choices are not yours....and you think yours is always correct ?? I agree money does not buy immunity. Nothing is immune from criticism in this society. Funny how some criticize others , then get into their own cars to waste gas....hehehe... :P
me:"ANd some people just enjoy the ride and height of an SUV. "
And some people just...uhh...have things to compensate for...
LOL...like they say...takes one to know one, eh ? Also....maybe the one who tends to critisize others are mostly sour or trying to compensate also eh ? Can you try to be nice some of the time ??
" Almost all people I spoke to loved the new freedoms and opportunities. "
Shame they lag so far behind when it comes to human rights and basic freedom that they can't be considered part of the free world. But things are just fine in China! And if we all subscribe to some wacky far-rightist libertarian economic scheme, deregulate our labor to compete with the third world, and defer 'n conform, everything will be just fine here too.
here for once I agree...china lags far behind in many basic freedoms....but they do cherish the many that they have now. Things are not fine...since they need cheap oil to keep that economic engine growing...
Don't know when to quit, eh ?
"But there is also something called courtesy and being nice."
That's a cop out. If people can't stand to hear criticism of their choices, they shouldn't make said choices. If you're sure and happy with your choice, others won't affect you.
When the rebuttal is "be nice", all hope is lost. Sorry dude, real life is not "nice". Well, maybe if you are some trust-funder or marry into money or are a crooked CEO, etc.
" Things are not fine..."
But you just said not long ago they are doing fine in China and Vietnam. I guess relative to being dead...
One of Seattle's shrillest commentators sounds off about gas prices
yes...and those times, the prices of gas was lower...and people wanted to buy what they enjoyed. Just like you would buy what you enjoyed. Some people buy cars..some buy mopeds...some bike.
If they had been limited instead of allowed to burgeon t he last decade or two we'd be using much less gasoline. The demand would be down.
agree demand would be less....many switched to econocars after the oil shortages of 1970s ...but cheap gas made people buy the more powerful, larger vehicles. However, recent problems have to do with the political situation in Nigeria, Venezuela, Mid East, Iran, and Iraq. Plus refinery problems. Plus global growth in usage.
The problem with _large_ vehicles is that they are often driven by one person going at much above the speed limit and above the other vehicle's speed in the region.
Here I agree...but this also applies to all vehicles. No matter what kind of vehicle you see...it is mostly a solo driver. These people should get a moped, eh ? But wait...there are times when they need the extra space and seats....
They are not being used as a work vehicle, i.e., a pickup truck used to haul tools for a construction person or similar worker; they are being driven to commute from Dayton/Cinci at 80 mph. That is consuming great extra amounts of fuel.
I agrree..but what you are describing is happening at all levels....and all races, all economic strata. All have to downgrade...downsize...down speed....NOT just the truck drivers. This is common sense...and i think you would agree.
It may be nice that the driver can easily afford the extra $ cost, but the country can't afford the extra useage. They are imposing a supply tax on the lower income people who need their cars to commute. That tax is in the form of increased prices now because of the high demand.
Why are people still driving to the corner store for milk...when they can walk?? The rest of the world has been saying this about US culture for years. Now it is funny how US drivers point the finger at large car drivers...but continue to do the same wasteful things they have done in the past.
I think that every gallon that you use, you decrease the supply.....this is simple. YOu pay for what you use. It is better for the country if ALL of us stop driving. This is a simple fact.
We need to find a way to charge a different cost for the two different types of users.
This is already happening...those who use more...pay more...
This is happening around the whole globe. Many people pay $5 or $6 per gallon of gas. Those who cannot stomach the price , switch to more economical vehicles. Those who prefer luxury and heavy vehicles...pay more for their choice.
me: think of the commodities market as an auction. It is an auction that continues hour after hour, day after day on the same type product. The traders buying the oil for $75/barrel, will only pay $75/barrel if they think their customers will pay > $75/barrel. If the customers already have enough product, and the auctioner wants their money from the trader, the trader is going to have to lower his price and may lose money to move that $75/barrel oil.
There are hundreds if not thousands of traders around the world. It's almost impossible to be collusion, and get hundreds of people not undercutting each other. Imagine if you had the money to buy 1% of the corn crop tomorrow for $5/bushel, and everyone else buys for $5/bushel. Can you tomorrow decide you want to sell those bushels for $10 each, if others are selling theirs to the customers at $6 each. I think you will have your corn until it rots.
Even OPEC with their size can not set the price of oil, unless they had a boycott of selling it. Their own members have been proven to cheat (because of human nature to make money). There is no person, group, company, or country that has enough power to control the price, though some can certainly change it short-term. People will always under-cut each other to get business.
Bush is already launching an investigation into the quick rise....
It is funny how we use as much as we want...but when the prices rise...we look only at SUVs .....