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Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans

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Comments

  • jguojguo Member Posts: 49
    What happend to Caravan? a 49% drop! I wonder what the inventory looks like on dodge dealer lots. 


                           Month   Sales   DR %             Sales CYTD   DR %
        Model             Curr Yr  Pr Yr  Change   Curr Yr    Pr Yr     Change
    Voyager                3383    8841   -62%     30962     49563      -38%
    Town & Country         9341   10100    -8%     95451     63580       50%
    Caravan               14582   28711   -49%    170732    210460      -19%

    Odyssey               11792   11042    6.8%    85777     87065     -1.5%

  • rwiensrwiens Member Posts: 2
    I have been reading with great interest the numerous posts regarding the 2001 DC van gas leak during the IIHS offset crash test. While it is makes for a thread filled with controversy, I find it intriguing that there are very few posts on what I think is the REAL issue: the 2001 GC gets a poor rating on the IIHS test, compared to the good rating of the Ody (both get good ratings on the NHTSA front and side impact tests). I cannot, in good conscience, trade the safety of my wife and 3 kids for 0.8% financing or big discounts, reliability, design and convenience factors aside. Am I missing something here? Do consumers not know? Do they not care ("it won't happen to me")? Is the test flawed or not representative? What gives?

    For the record, we have more or less narrowed our choice down to a 2001 GC or Ody (we discounted the Venture for safety, the Windstar for reliability and the Sienna for size). Most of the local Honda dealers claim (in their best salesperson voice) "you'll never find a 2001 LX", which really means they don't have one and would like to sell you something else. But the one dealer we have been working with still has 3 left (had 4 a month ago), probably because people are waiting to compare with the 2002s (as we are). In contrast, the Dodge dealer next door had about 20 GCs at last count.

    I am also interested in towing a pop-up tent trailer at some point in the future, so I am interested in perspectives on the capabilities of these two vans in this context.

    This is my first post on this board so please excuse the scattered subjects.
  • cgaydoscgaydos Member Posts: 116
    you say: "the REAL issue: the 2001 GC gets a poor rating on the IIHS test, compared to the good rating of the Ody"

    The poor rating applied only to 2001 GC *before* the fuel tank fix. After that the rating is "marginal" for vans without side air bags and "acceptable" for those with.

    Yes, if you examine the data closely for both tests you'll see the Odyssey protects better than the DC minivans, but if you're looking at a 2002 DC van with side air bags the difference is not that big. It isn't as if we're talking about the Venture/Montana/Silhouette or Quest/Villager, which both scored poor due to weak body structure in the offset test.

    You need to balance the better crash test scores against the rest of the price/value of the minivans. If the two vans had identical prices for equivalent features the Ody would win hands down, but the market price for the Ody is far higher than for the equivalent DC van.
  • rwiensrwiens Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the response. I looked more closely at the IIHS site and need to spend a little time with the details. I also noticed they haven't posted the results for the 2002 Ody (one of the things I would speculate on is that the standard side airbags on the Ody will give it an even better rating).

    My general feeling is that although value (which I define as the features I need or want - vs. what the manufacturer heaps onto the vehicle so he can charge me more - for the lowest price) is important, it is orders of magnitude less important to me than safety. Therefore I am willing to pay more (within reason) for a safer vehicle. I'm just not sure if the evidence gives me a clear indication of which is the safest.

    On a related note, has anyone seen statistics for injuries due to SIDE airbags? I realize the technology is very young and at least one consumer advocate recommends staying away from them until their effectiveness has been more adequately tested.

    BTW maybe it's just Canadian pricing but the GC and Ody are not far apart at all on price. It's tough to compare apples and apples, though. For example I feel that in order to get the same handling as the Ody, the GC needs the Sport Touring suspension, which comes packaged with other stuff for around $1200). And I the only way I can get as much HP out of a GC is to go with the ES model (3.8L) which is another $2000 pop.
  • cgaydoscgaydos Member Posts: 116
    "BTW maybe it's just Canadian pricing but the GC and Ody are not far apart at all on price."

    Could be. Supply and demand varies greatly depending on locale. Admittedly, the SF Bay area, where I live, has exceptionally high demand for Odysseys. But it's worth noting that when I was shopping 4 months ago I found the best price I could get was $500 over MSRP for the Odyssey, but bought my T & C Ltd for $8000 under MSRP (including $2000 rebate, $500 owner loyalty, and $400 college grad). Although the cars were almost $10k apart in MSRP they were only about $1k apart in the true price. In terms of features, the T & C Ltd won hands down. Of course, that situation was probably extreme, but it's important to compare what you actually pay, not just MSRP. Also, there should be a lot more price flexibility on DC minivans ... if you do some hardball shopping and negotiating you may be able to save thousands.

    I will also note that this was before the crash test results were published. It is certain that had I known the results I would have, at the minimum, delayed purchase until the 2002 model year (or at least a 2001 model year manufactured after July 3, which should include the fuel leak fix). It is also possible that, were I to make the choice again, I would choose the Odyssey due to the weaker DC minivan crash test results ... I'd been expecting better.
  • ed12ed12 Member Posts: 100
    rweins:

    You raise some good points. Popular Science this month has an interesting article about crash tests. They point out that some vehicles do well in the mandated NHTSA tests and not so well in the IIHS tests. This of course leaves customers confused. It also raises the question of the relevance of any of these tests to real world accidents.

    Insurance companies do have statistics on injury rates for various vehicles and these show that vehicles bought by younger people have higher rates than vehicles bought by older or more conservative people and that large vehicles have much lower injury rates than small vehicles.

    In general, amongt similar vehicles such as all large sedans, there is not that much variation.

    Similarly, minivans in general have a relatively low injury rate with not that much variation amongst vehicles.

    Popular Science ended by saying hopefully in the future all these tests can be put together in a more meaningful way.

    Ed
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Did I read somewhere that J.D. Powers rated the new DC vans a tad higher than Odyssey. Are you people slipping? No one has rubbed my nose in it yet. Or did I screw up? First time this year.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    dmathews3, NO you did NOT screw up. J.D. Powers did rate the Town & Country over the Honda.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    What really disappoints me is all my opponents haven't said a word. God I hate that when no one listens. Takes all the fun out of hanging around this board.
  • pearsonrjpearsonrj Member Posts: 51
    I think DC really are beginning (emphasis on beginning) to improve the quality of their vehicles. Personally I attach alot of credibility to J.D. Powers, so perhaps the Town & Country has finally got the quality of the Odyssey. But until that quality is demonstrated consistently year-in year-out, coupled with rave media reviews, depreciation on the Town and Country vans is going to continue to suck compared to the Odyssey. I bought a 2002 Odyssey recently (I'm sure you had already worked that out), not because it had lots of gadgets in it (the DC vans are renowned for that), but for the reliability, safety, and more than anything the resale. There's a good chance I will need to sell the van in a few years, and I know I can sell the van in two or three years for only $2-3,000 less than I paid for it. I could never do that with a Town and Country, at least not at the moment...
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    You said you bought a 2002 honda odyssey because you say it is a reliable car and not because of the gadgets it has (the odyssey has gadgets?). I hope you don't become one of those Honda Odyssey owners who is dissapointed in the "ultimate" minivan they just bought when the transmission goes at 30-45k miles. If there is one thing I've learned from looking at these "Odyssey Problem" message boards, DC van owners aren't the only ones with transmission woes.

    The lesser resale value of the DC minivans is more of a result of the massive amounts of units DCX sells every year than anything else, including reliability. Rental car companies around the country use thousands of DC minivans as rental minivans which really helps Chrysler sell even more cars. People who are about to buy an Odyssey because of it's third-row fold away seat are forced to think twice when they drive a DC minivan (usually a Grand Caravan or Caravan Sport, in the cas e of a rental) with a V6 engine that has good power AT ALL RPM ranges, dual zone climate control, superior handling, better driver position, ect.
  • mrbizness1mrbizness1 Member Posts: 93
    "There's a good chance I will need to sell the van in a few years, and I know I can sell the van in two or three years for only $2-3,000 less than I paid for it. I could never do that with a Town and Country, at least not at the moment... "

    Your vehicle is worth 2or3k less than msrp as soon as it hit the street, and if Honda increases production it will lose even more like many domestic vehicles. If auto companys hold the line on prices increases during a recession used car prices will also drop. Would you buy your car in 3 years for 2k or 3k less than the price of a new car?, I don't think so. Especially when you factor in a lower finance rate and a new car factory warranty as compared to a used vehicle, the difference on a monthly payment wouldn't be significant
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Some Odyssey owners here need to get real about the real depreciation of their vehicles and also realize why the depreciation of many domestic vehicles are greater than those of their foreign counterparts. No, it is not mainly because of past reliability problems, at least in Chrysler's case. As I type this now hundreds of people across the country are in the process of buying DC minivans. Chrysler sells so many more vans than Honda sells, even with their increased production rates. This is the greatest factor in why the resale value of DC minivans are greater than that of the Honda.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Go read the Long Term Wrap-up. Do the math. Edmunds paid ABOVE MSRP and paid $29,970. Edmunds sold the 99 Odd EX for $22,000. That is an ACTUAL depreciation of $7970.
    People who buy DC minivans do NOT pay above MSRP. Real depreciation is about the same when you subtract the price received at sale from the actual price paid for either minivan.
    Reliability? Just read in the Town Hall. Current Odyssey owners (1999-2001) are reporting MORE problems than are the current owners of DC minivans even though DC greatly outsell Odyssey.
  • pearsonrjpearsonrj Member Posts: 51
    mrbizness - I doubt very much if Honda will increase production to the point where the Odyssey will depreciate to the extent that DC vans do. Even with their Alabama plant up and running they will not exceed demand, and they have new models coming up that will take up factory capacity. Would I buy my van in 2 or 3 years for 2 or 3K less than it is worth now? Answer - yes, if I was in a hurry and there was a waiting list for the current year model - how else do you explain the high resale value of '99 to '01 Odysseys if you dismiss the high reliability and good review aspects of the equation? Resale values stay up if demand exceeds supply - and like I say, I don't think Honda will increase capacity to the extent that there will be dozens of Odysseys on the dealer lots - the dealers don't want it and Honda is making a sizeable profit just as they are.

    4aodge - read my response to mrbizness1. You know what - you're right. If DC made fewer vans their resale might be better. So, why don't they? Besides, does it really matter what is driving a high resale value? The fact is that Odysseys have a higher resale value than many other vehicles, end of story. If you don't want to take advantage of that, it is entirely up to you. It's just another factor in the van-buying equation.

    carleton1 - I, and many others, paid MSRP or less for their Odyssey. Those who did, frankly could either afford to or did not do their research. I bet there are some people out there who paid MSRP for their Town and Country. Some people look for a bargain, some don't. Edmunds is a company - I doubt very much they tried very hard to get the cheapest price when they bought their Odyssey, and I doubt very much they drove a hard bargain when selling the van. Before I bought my van, I did a little market research on some Internet auto classifieds sites. I found that the prices being asked when selling used Odysseys equated to a maximum of 5% depreciation per annum to appreciation of 20+% per annum. Now many of those advertisers clearly won't have sold their vehicles for the asking price, but many will have come close. It's the law of supply and demand again.
    Lastly, as for reliability, I take the messages posted on this board, as well as many other automotive forums (including Odyssey-only forums) with a huge grain of salt. The posters in these forums represent a very small fraction of the overall owners of both brands of vehicles. If you want to see a set of posts that are biased the other way just go to www.epinions.com. Who to believe? As I said in my original post, a company such as J.D. Powers performs much more objective testing on a far greater sample group, so their results are more believable. And as I also said in my original post, I believe that DC HAS improved reliability of their vans, to the point where perhaps they rival Honda and Toyota.

    Finally, and on a personal note - who really cares? We all have our own needs and desires, otherwise we'd all be buying the same van. I have no desire to sour anybody else's purchase of a vehicle, merely to defend my own purchase. But I really shouldn't care what a relatively anonymous poster says on a message board. Most message boards are haunted by obsessive-compulsive Type-A personalities, for whom their consumer purchases are their life. I would like to think that I don't fall into that category. I guess what I'm saying is that I won't be responding further on this thread. I think I'll stick to threads that might provide me with some useful information or help others with objective facts. Good day to you all.
  • mrbizness1mrbizness1 Member Posts: 93
    " Resale values stay up if demand exceeds supply - and like I say, I don't think Honda will increase capacity to the extent that there will be dozens of Odysseys on the dealer lots - the dealers don't want it and Honda is making a sizeable profit just as they are"

    Wow, a Honda owner admits that Honda keeps their prices inflated by manipulating the market.
    Not that I blame them as long as people pay
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    I find it very hard to believe that Honda is trying to keep demand up by cutting supply. They are in the business of making money and have stockholders to answer to. They sell them for the same price to the dealer no matter wheather its 100,000 or 150K a year. Now maybe if the market went to pot due to a recession than they may have to come out with a rebate, but that is highly unlikely.
  • odd1odd1 Member Posts: 227
    Okay so this 7yr or 100,000mi makes me begin to believe that D.C. has improved the trannies after all these years. Thanks to the compition. Now after having avowed DC vans never again, they have made it so I will have to consider them again. Curses!!!!

    Still happy with touble free Oddysey. ;)
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...is a promotion going on until the end of the year in order to help drive sales. AFAIK, it is not a permanent change to the Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep warranty.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    Depreciation is determined largely by the used-car buying public - if it perceives one model is worth more than another, resale will be better on that model.

    The notion that resale is somehow tied into sales numbers is flawed - yes, the Odyssey is sold in smaller numbers than the Caravan-Voyager, and yes, its resale is better, percentage-wise.

    But the Honda Accord far outsells the Stratus-Cirrus models - so by that logic, it should suffer in resale. It doesn't - it's the far rarer Stratus-Cirrus with the lousy resale, and the Accord with the solid track record.

    Public perception and past track record plays a role - which is why Honda is selling cars in larger numbers than last year, without resorting to the zero-percent financing and extended warranties DaimlerChrysler needs to move its metal.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Honda cars may have sold more this year than last, but the Oddysey was sold in fewer numbers this year than last year. Look at the BIG increase in sales of Town & Country this year over last year. Check the numbers from this link to minivan sales:

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolva.asp
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...that's true. T&C sales YTD sales are up by 36,000 units. But Caravan sales are down by 32,000, Chrysler Voyager sales are down by 25,000 units and Plymouth Voyager sales are down by 27,000 units.. Ody sales are down by only 549 units...not shabby in comparison.


    To be fair though, let's compare:


    Windstar down 45,000

    Venture down 11,000

    Sienna down 17,000

    Montana down 10,000

    Villager down 8,000

    MPV down 3,000

    Quest down 13,000

    Silouette down 2,000

    Kia up 10,000

    Eurovan up 1,500.


    Now these are sales. More interesting would be production numbers. AFAIK, Honda Odyssey capacity until Lincoln came on line this month was 120K units per year. So by selling 107K through October, that means Honda is still selling more than it can technically make.


    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svolva.asp

  • dave210dave210 Member Posts: 242
    Who really cares how many vans Honda or Chrysler sells. I have a Chrysler Town & Country Limited, and while it's nice that they sell well even though they have $2000-$3500 rebates, it's not going to be a deal breaker for me regarding how many more units they have sold compared to Honda, Ford, etc.

    Carelton, you used to have a Chevy Astro. You seem to speak well of them, yet they don't sell anywhere near the amount of the Chryslers or the Honda. So what's your point. That Chrysler is the number one selling minivan and that equals better? People have known that they have sold the best for a while. It obvious you bought that 1991 Chevy van regardless that Chrysler was still number one in 1991.

    But people have different tastes, and I'm sure to some people the best minivan for them is the Chevy Astro, while for me it's a Town & Country. Are the sales numbers going to change my opinion on how I look at the core product? No.

    There is a reason why Chrysler sells more. One could say it's the rebates, but it's also due to the fact that Chrysler allows 400,000 + units be made each year. If Honda wanted, they could be selling more than they are now, but they have chosen to limit their production. Considering there are still waiting lists for the Odyssey, that leads me to believe the popularity of the Odyssey has not gone down one bit.

    Also, a reason why the Chrysler Town & Country sales have been doing so well is probably because of the demise of the Plymouth Grand Voyager SE. The Town & Country LX has pretty much replaced that model, so people originally going to Plymouth are now shopping the Town & Country. The same can be said for the rental car companies. While they once had Plymouth and Dodge vans, they now have low-end T&C's and Caravans.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    It may be the rebates, the high volume in which the DC minivans are produced, or the end of the Plymouth brand. However, people don't like to settle with an inferior product, even if it means saving money. The Odyssey owners don't like that a major reason why Chrysler sells more vans than anyone else is because they offer a product that appeals and attracts more people than does the Odyssey. People don't just buy cars because of mass produced volume and generous rebates, there has to be someting more to the product. Obviously, Chrysler has had that something for the last 17 years and still does today.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    If Honda sold fewer Odysseys in MY2001, it's partly because they introduced the Acura MDX SUV, which is built on the same assembly line as the Odyssey was through most of 2001 MY. The production is a zero-sum game - more Acuras, fewer Odysseys. That will change with the 120,000-unit per year (soon to jump to 150,000) plant in Alabama coming online.

    Honda sells about 400,000 Accords a year, while DaimlerChrysler sells under 200,000 Sebring-Stratus models - and the resale on the Accord is percentage wise far higher. Honda sells about 120,000 Odysseys a year, D-C 400,000+ minivans - and the resale on the Honda is far higher. There's a connection there all right - but it has more to do with the reputation of the company than it does with any production numbers.

    DaimlerChrysler is trying to build a reputation for something Chrysler hasn't had on its own for over 30 years - a reputation for quality.

    Honda has spent the last 30 years building that reputation - and it shows in the resale value (i.e., the public demand for its products on the secondhand market) very well.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Gullible people believe Honda has a high resale value because they do not know how to accurately determine depreciation.
    Look at one example of distorted resale: A certain 99 Odd EX was purchased for $29,970 and was sold for $22,000. That is depreciation of $7970.....and not the mythical $369 as reported using clever accounting.
    True depreciation compares purchase price and price received when sold or traded. It has very little to do with MSRP. When people pay ABOVE MSRP for a Honda, of course it has to be sold for more than a vehicle which sells below MSRP to have the same actual depreciation. Most DC dealers are not as GREEDY as Honda dealers and will pass savings due to VOLUME of sales on to the customer.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    My point in quoting sales was in regard to a previous post that implied Oddysey sales were up for 2001. The second point was that more people STILL prefer DC minivans to others.
    You are correct in stating that for some people cargo carrying capacity of the Oddysey is more important to them than the comfort items of DC minivans.
    My wife and I prefer padded armrests; separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger, overhead console with outside temperature, compass, trip computer; quality sound system with Cassette AND CD; built in child safety seat; etc to the greater cargo volume and Magic Seat of the Oddysey.
    I have driven my sister's 2001 Odd EX and immediately driven our 1999 GC SE on the exact same route. Both are quiet, comfortable, smooth. Our GC is quicker off the line to 30 MPH but the Odd is quicker 60 to 80 MPH. The Odd odometer registered 34.9 miles for the test where our 99 GC registered 34.0 miles.
    My brother in law said their 2001 Odd EX got 20 to 25 MPG on the long trip they took. Our 99 GC got 26 to 27.5 MPG on 6 long round trips we have driven. Using the 2.647 % "fudge factor" of inaccurate Odd odometer, our GC got even better gas mileage: 26.7 to 28.2 MPG.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    More people buy DaimlerChrysler minivans than others - but that's changing, and D-C is losing share to other automakers. Honda is selling every minivan it can build -without- resorting to 0% financing (something D-C chair Schrempp loathes to do) - but D-C has to resort to extended warranties and no-interest financing to move the metal. Whether more people -prefer- D-C minivans is open to question - there are plenty of cars that sell well for reasons other than buyer preference (usually becuase they're cheap or cheaper than the competition). I know of plenty of individuals whose past purchases of Dodge and Plymouth minivans will ensure that DaimlerChrysler never sells them another vehicle for the rest of their lives. That's part of why Chrysler Group is on the ropes now sales-wise - past quality and engineering gaffes have finally caught up with them.

    As for selling, I'd bet that in most areas of the U.S., a used Odyssey would be snapped up at asking price in a few days - while you'd wind up discounting the D-C van to get someone to buy it. That's about the same as the situation when the vans are new, so little changes over the lifespan of the vehicle.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Read the many problems reported by current owners of the Oddysey. Read in DC forums to see there are fewer problems reported by owners of current DC minivans even though DC outsells Odd 4 to 1.
    I know people who will NOT buy another Honda due to the many expensive problems they have had with Hondas. The local dealer had a 99 Oddysey for sale on his lot for MONTHS.
    Edmund's 99 Odd EX sold for $22,000 and they paid $29,970. Don't try to mislead people about Odyssey depreciating very little. The facts on Oddysey depreciation can be found if people are able to do simple arithmetic and not read only the biased impressions.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    Forum evidence is anecdotal at best; however, it does appear that the newer DaimlerChrysler minivans are about on par with Honda's, reliability wise - at least according to Consumer Reports' readers.

    If all-out space takes a back seat to overall reliability, I suppose the question of D-C or Honda is moot, since the Sienna far outranks either in the reliability department.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Why don't some people trust Sienna or Oddysee owners who report problems here in the Town Hall?
    I was thinking of trading our GC in on a Sienna until I read all the Sienna problems being reported by Sienna owners here in the Town Hall. The Sienna has the most comfortable seating for my wife and I but unfortunately the Sienna does not have separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. Nor does the Sienna have a separate heater at rear or the space of either the Oddysee or DC minivans.
    The Sienna is a very nice minivan but it is NOT as problem free as Camry, Corolla, etc. have been (If we can trust Sienna owners).
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    It's not a matter of trust or distrust - these are just anecdotal stories, which may or may not reflect the buying public at large - certainly the numbers are too small to make any sort of statistical prediction from them.

    May be the Sienna isn't as trouble free as the Camry - but it's far and away the most reliable minivan on the road in North America today. Single experiences may vary - but everything I've ever seen about the Sienna says no one does reliable minivans better than Toyota.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Owners of vehicles who post data about their own vehicle here in the Town Hall are probably more factual than the unsubstantiated, anonymous surveys compiled by CR.
    I have reported that our formerly zero defect 1999 GC SE had zero problems. When a coolant leak occurred at 35,002 miles, that information was reported. The head gaskets were replaced at no cost to me by the Dodge dealer under factory warranty.
    I have no reason to question the integrity of people who own Oddysey or Sienna in reporting facts about their minivans.
  • shepherd5shepherd5 Member Posts: 35
    A few months ago, I posted some messages re: my experience replacing the howling roof rack on my T&C Ltd. Here's a quick recap.

    I went to Fullerton Chrysler (Southern California) after they told me to bring the car in. Once I got there, the first thing the Asst. Mgr. Of Service asked me is if I know the difference between a recall and a TSB (technical service bulletin). Basically, his point was that I have to pay for a TSB. I told him, not if the car is under warranty. He then said, "What year is your car?" He should know the answer, the model just came out (2001 model). He then asked, "Is it still under warranty? How many miles is your car?" How many people drives 36,000 miles in less than a year? The rest of the conversation does not matter. I knew then and there I do not want them touching my car.

    I then went to Huntington Beach Chrysler. Upon arrival, the first thing I was asked is if I have an appointment. I told them, No, when I called Chrysler Corporation, I was just told to bring the car down. (This is a lie, I did not call Chrysler Corp. I just read from these postings and by calling other dealers that I was to bring the car down). Nonetheless, his answer surprised me. He said, "We do not work for Chrysler Corporation. Chrysler Corporation does not pay us. We are an independently owned dealer." When he saw the look on my face, he retorted, You don't want to pay for this, do you? . Basically, he is upset that I do not have an appointment. Point taken, but on the other hand, I was not asking him to fix the car right then and there.

    A few exchanges later (and I want to point out, I still kept my cool because I just want them to change the roof rack) he calmed down, took the part number down and told me he would call me when the part came in. When it did, the work was performed and I was off on my way.

    When the survey came, I told Chrysler Corporation the work was performed as expected, but that I was surprised at how rude the Service Manager was and how I felt my business was not appreciated. I was happy with the work, but I was not happy with the way I was initially treated. I did write that after the initial unpleasantries, I was treated as expected.

    A few days ago, my ABS warning light went on. I called this same dealer to make an appointment (they were closest to my work) and was assigned to the same service manager. I did not want to deal with him again, but I had no choice. He said he can't see me until next Tuesday. I made the appointment anyway. I then called a different dealer and they were able to see me the next morning. I brought the car in and got better than expected service. The problem (rear wheel sensor) was fixed right away.

    A few hours later, the same Service Manager @ Huntington Beach Chrysler called me and said, :Don't bring your car in. We don't want you to bring your car in. Your comments on the Chrysler Corporation Survey cost me $300. What kind of response did you think you were going to get?" I was taken by surprise, I just said, "Okay" and hung up. I couldn't believe it. Do I have to go through this verbal abuse every time I want to have them fix my car?

    So I called their General Manager and told him what happened. His response was, "If you were not happy with us the first time, why would you want to come back?" Wow! This is new for me. I have never heard of a dealer refusing service to someone for writing a negative survey. After all, aren't surveys designed to find out why customers aren't happy? Apparently this dealer did not believe or want second chances.

    So, I called Chrysler Corporation again and reported what happened. Even though the person on the other end eagerly took down the report (he couldn't believe it either). I expect nothing to come out of this (and by the way things are going, I HOPE nothing comes out of this).

    I am not asking anyone to boycott the dealership. They seem to do good work and I am sure most people have no problems with them. I am still convinced I just caught this particular Service Manager at a bad time. I was thankful this happened. I now know for sure where not to take my car. And BOY, do I have a story to tell =)

    Does anyone know anyone else who has been blacklisted from a dealership? For writing a bad survey?

    Last but not least, I know none of you read my actual survey, but do you think I am fair in my survey, saying that I am happy with the work done but not the way I was initially treated?

    I know the dealer is upset because of the bad remark, but, do you think they are justified in asking me not to bring my car to them? (even though I no longer want to?)
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Odyssey owners can't seem to understand the difference in the ratio of minivans that Honda and DC produce and how it reflects the price, demand and resale values of these vehicles. Don't u think that if DC only made however many minivans Honda makes per year, they would also be in just as high demand as the Odyssey is now? Of course! DC minivans looks better, drive better, handle better, have more features, and are more fun to drive than any Odyssey is. Just look at the comparison test between the two vans at edmunds.com. The Chrysler beat the Honda in almost every criteria of the competition. Face it, not everyone wants a boxy exterior, bland interior, a fold away third row seat, and transmission problems.

    My "base" 2000 Town & Country LX has many features that a 2000 Odyssey LX wouldn't have even though the two cars are very similar in terms of pricing. Such features include a trip computer w/ multiple functions, dual zone climate control, 10 speaker infinity sound system w/cd player and casset, cargo basket, grochery bag hooks, 16 inch chrome wheels, hidden door tracks, standard roof rack, and an attractive exterior. Just look at the Chrysler or Dodge website and see for yourself the numerous features that Chrysler offeres on it's vans that Honda doesnt. These features are just some of the features that keeps many people comming back for more.
  • shepherd5shepherd5 Member Posts: 35
    I got a close look at a friend's Oddy after spending eight months with my T&C Ltd. I agree with 4aodge's comment -- that the Oddy's interior looks plain -- but I envy his navigation system.

    I seemed to have solve the foldaway seat issue (I now have three german shepherds). I moved the bench seat to the second row and took out the two captain chairs. These captain chairs are a lot easier to manuever -- I can take them out on my own. I've only managed to take out the bench on my own (I'm a little guy) once. Most of the time, I don't need to seat 7, but I take my dogs with me often.

    Would I buy another Chrysler/Dodge -- well, see my posting #584 above. I opted for the T&C because it looks better, more features, seemed to give better value compared to a fully loaded Oddy. Most of all, I didn't want to beg a Honda sales person to sell me one. Do I regret it? Kinda. Obviously I only have to deal with the salesperson once -- during the transaction. But service, I've dealt with a few times, three bad experiences and two good ones.

    I fully expect to get an Oddy once I am done with this van.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    carleton1,

    Anecdotes are single user comments. There is no way to statistically project their validity onto the population at large. Anyone familiar with statistics will tell you that small sample sizes are statistically unreliable, and that reliability increases with sample size. That's why anecdotal stories are useless as bases for buying decisions - though you may be affected by the experiences you have, or that your family and friends have - I know I am, and that since we were victims of two unreliable Chrysler vehicles, we'll not buy again from that company - there are simply too many other options out there with better track records. Maybe if enough people report that things have changed with Chrysler now that it's no longer an independent automaker, that opinion might change - but in my exteded family, we've gone from almost 100% Chrysler 10-15 years ago to 0% now because of all the bad experiences.

    4aogde,

    Not everyone values features over engineering. Those who are safety-minded will prefer the Odyssey for its superior safety standing in the crash tests. Many will choose it for its superior engine, others will do so for its superior resale value - and a significant base of people will choose it because of positive past experiences with Honda automobiles - just as many won't consider a DaimlerChrysler van because of poor past experiences with its products.

    There's something out there for everyone - and remember that Honda is selling every Odyssey it can build, without resorting to no-interest financing. DaimlerChrysler is struggling to sell with no-interest financing and with pumped-up (temporarily) warranties - so Honda is clearly doing something right, and DaimlerChrysler is clearly having to make up for its past mistakes.

    I suspect, based on Mercedes recent push into minivans, that this generation will be the last Chrysler-designed minivans - and that the next generation will be Mercedes-designed, but we'll see how well that works out.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    If Dc minivans are so damm good why did DC come out with a EX version to complete against Honda instead of Honda coming out with a Town & Country? Maybe it's because DC knows a good van when they see it. I think the Odyssey looks a hell of a lot better than the Dc vans. If I wanted something streamlined I would have bought a vette but I wanted something with room. Also I wouldn't throw stones yet on the tranny until a couple years down the road as you can't be sure yet the DC vans have an improved tranny. Also The Odyssey doesn't have a bland interior anymore with the leather and heated seats should be 6 star rating on crash tests if there was such a rating now that they added side air bags. Also theat ratio crap on vans doesn't get it as the Accord has a better resale value than the comparable DC product even though they sell at least twice as many. So it all boils down to you buy what you like even though you don't have good taste.
  • gcintendergcintender Member Posts: 36
    Make an appointment with your eye doctor tomorrow - there's something wrong with your peepers.

    And how do heated seats make the Odyssey's interior less plain?
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Member Posts: 1,739
    Maybe you are the one who need your peepers checked. Is there something about leather you didn't understand.
    Of course someone who drives a firetrap can't be on the ball anyway.
  • dave210dave210 Member Posts: 242
    Some people here are acting like 5 year-olds...and over what? Minivans! And I'm not talking about just the pro-Odyssey people. Let's try to keep the bickering above the 4th grade level, thank you.
  • 4aodge4aodge Member Posts: 288
    Years from now when it is unquestioned that Chrysler has rocksolid transmissions in their minivans and all of their other cars, Odyssey owners will still be saying they can't trust the transmission and can't be sure it has been improved. They will say this despite all of the problems Odyssey owners are having now with their minivans which is totally unexpected of a car company such as Honda.

    Why did DCX start producing their "EX" minivan models to better compete with the Honda Odyssey? Because Chrysler is the one defending the title of the sales champion, not Honda. Some Odyssey owners here with think skulls just can't seem to get that if Honda built as many minivans as DC they too would have to offer incentives to move their vehicles as fast as they would like to.
  • DTKWOKDTKWOK Member Posts: 131
    Wow 4aodge, I'm taking you Vegas if you can predict the future! First how do you know one way or the other that all of Chrysler's trannies will be bulletproof? (not saying one way or the other).
    Second, how do you know what the status of the future Odyssey models will be in the future?

    As for the new EX models, I believe dmathews3 was asking, with all the available configurations that DC already had, shouldn't there already be one trim level that's ready to "defend" against the Odyssey?

    Regarding the incentives and stuff, yes, maybe that would be true if production actually caught up to demand. It would be interesting if that actually happened, to see which models consumers would prefer. But again, as they say "talk is cheap", we can be talking about "if's" for as long as we want - "if" I only chose those last 6 numbers for the lottery I would.... You get the idea.

    The talk about safety always ends up with the argument that defensive driving is the best safety tool. I agree with this, to an extent. If all accidents can be avoided by your actions alone, then you would never get into one since you can drive defensively right? Probably not! Ever get rear-ended at a stop light or sandwiched for that matter? Would defensive driving have gotten you out of those???? There's also the idea of "deliberate crash into fixed barriers" and how they reflect real world data. Well, if any of you have any better ideas on predicting crash results, by all means file for a patent and do humanity some good. Crash ratings are a comparison tool and not an absoulte truth. The non-deformable barrier can represent the guard rails, center median barriers, that Ford Excursion, UPS truck, MACK truck, etc...

    As for handling, how 'much better are you folks claiming the DC van has over the Odyssey, just curious? Any good numbers? I can claim for example that car A "feels like" it stops better than car B, but the real determinator would be the actual stopping distance and not the "feel from your pants judgement", professional driver or not.
  • dkrabdkrab Member Posts: 77
    I will soon be driving a brand new minivan. I was trying to decide between the DaimlerChrylser products and the Honda Odyssey. I believe I made an informed decision based on the following:

    Price of Vehicle: If you take the two vans (Chrysler Town and Country eL and Oddy LX) and equip them equally, the Chrysler's street price will be about $800 less in my market (Honda is currently selling here at $500 below MSRP). I could get the Chrysler even cheaper, but I would have to sacrifice the middle-row bucket seats. Had to add extra in for the Chrysler to get side airbags to equal the Honda.

    Extended Warranty Price: HondaCare 7/100 zero deductible street price is about $900. DC corporation equivalent extended warranty street price is about $1500. An option here would be to just go with the promotional 7/100 powertrain warranty, but that would not make for an even comparison. Plus, the DC promo warranty has a deductible. If I get the equivalent warranty, the price of the DC van is about $400 less than the Honda if I buy the vehicle and warranty together.

    Luxury: I consider reliability to be the ultimate luxury. Padded armrests and triple-sone climate control systems mean absolutely nothing to me at all. I'm buying transportation, not a house.

    Versatilily: Honda third row seat folds into the floor. Honda middle row can be configured as either a bench or bucket seats. Chrysler third row is available as a split bench, meaning I could take out only half and still have room for 5 people and long luggage. So, both have their advantages, what matters is how it fits the way you would use it.

    Reliability: In spite of all the postings here, this is NOT a subjective measure. Honda has better reliability overall, no question about it. But, Chrysler appears to be improving, and Honda had a bad year in the '99 Oddy. Need to consider other factors such as overall reliability across the product line, and time it takes the company to correct problems when they do occur. Also, how good is the dealership when a problem does come up? It looks like Honda's troubles in 99 were very un-Honda like, while Chrysler's apparent improvements are very un-Chrysler like. It seems Chrysler takes the better part of a decade to fix their transmission problems. Honda fixes problems much faster, otherwise they would never have a good reputation.

    Ride/Drive/Handling: Chryslers are a bit quieter, but not by much. They seem solid and tight. Honda's make a bit more noise over the road, but overall it's a draw.

    Resale Value: Even considering the Chrysler sells for much less than MSRP, the Honda still retains a greater percentage of it's original purchase price. Part of the reason for this is the fact that some people will pay extra to get a van today, so a used Oddy has that advantage over a brand new one. I do not know how increasing supply of Oddys will affect this. So, I have to consider the resale value of the company's products overall. Historically, Honda's have better resale value. Even when the product, such as the Accord, is easy to get. Actual cost of ownership of the Honda should be less, if history is any indicator.

    Safety: Honda Ody fairs better in controlled, repeatable tests such as the governments and IIHS. These are the only tests that are repeatable, and that do not factor in differences in drivers, and are therefore the much more reliable figures. Insurance information for deaths per number of miles driven is very inconsistent, as proven by the very different numbers they provide for identical vehicles with different nameplates, such as the Nissan Quest and Mercury Villager. Their data is very nearly useless. Honda has standard side airbags, DC cost extra.

    Availability: Chryslers are available for immediate delivery. Honda, you wait. Weeks. Maybe months. If you had to have a car tomorrow, you would have no choice. But if you plan ahead and can afford to wait for something you will likely keep 5 years or much longer, it's not a big issue.

    I should be getting my new, silver Honda Odyssey LX before Christmas. If I have a bad experience with it, I'll post it.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    However, I do not lurk in Volkswagen and Volvo forums to trash those pieces of junk. In time you too will lose your hostility toward DC as I have moved on from my anger and hostility toward German and Swedish Junk and slimy, slithering, crooked dealerships selling those 2 loathsome brands.
    Life is really more pleasant once a person no longer has a grudge.
  • dkrabdkrab Member Posts: 77
    Carlton, that was meant to be funny, I hope!
  • akin67akin67 Member Posts: 62
    4aodge are you a politician? You certainly should be. I don't know another person on this board that can spin the truth as you do. You indicate that the Chrysler Vans rate higher than the Odyssey in every category? What a load of ______.


    For those who are unaware, Edmunds did a comparison test of the leading minivans. And as with every other authority in the field the ranked the Odyssey number one by a wide margin. To find out the truth just go to the Edmunds comparsions. I provide the link below:


    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/46418/page032.html

  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    LOL at your post #595 above. I had no idea you had such a great sense of humor.
  • pmcmullenpmcmullen Member Posts: 4
    A true random sampling of ownership and repair statistics is needed to evaluate the reliability of a product. Too many other factors are involved in how many negative posts might appear on a particular internet site.

    Demographically, owners of one brand might be more likely to be internet users or visitors to a particular site. Frequent use of internet auto sites might tend to be correlated with ownership of one brand, especially if reviews on a site tend to present the brand in a favorable light.

    Expectations of users plays a role in how they will react to problems with a product. Perhaps those who paid more than sticker for a reputation of quality will expect perfection and thus complain more loudly and more frequently?

    There is no guarantee that repeat posts by relatively few users won't skew the numbers.
  • enetheneth Member Posts: 285
    carleton1,

    I hold no grudge againt DaimlerChrysler - it is true that I would not buy one of its vehicles again, but that's largely because there are better alternatives for me, and there are too many other choices out there for me to gamble $25,000+ that Daimler has brought quality to the company that Chrysler never could.

    However, it's also true that potential buyers should see the other side of DaimlerChrysler's past - there are those who would have you believe that their vans are world-class in quality and engineering - and they're far from that, or at least until very recently have been far from that.

    Take a look at New Jersey's published stats on lemon law buybacks and you'll see exactly what I mean - I've posted the link before, and if there's any better indication of the company's past track record, it's that its percentage of lemon-law buybacks is higher than any automaker save Hyundai and Kia - and I can tell you from having had to deal with the "old" Chrysler Corporation, that it's not simply customer goodwill that led to those buybacks.

    Yes, you can get a lemon with any brand. Until this generation of minivans, your chances of getting a lemon with a DaimlerChrysler minivan were higher than with any other on the road - and though it may have less meaning now that Daimler is running the show, it is certainly still relevant to anyone considering a used model - the DaimlerChrysler vans were troublesome right through the 2000 model year production (particularly in the powertrain; halfway through 2000, the design was changed - yet again). There are plenty of relatively late-model Chrysler time bombs out there, just waiting for a hapless purchaser to fall victim to.
This discussion has been closed.

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