Doesn't anyone make a 100K mile timing belt?

bottgers · May 2002

While using belts instead of chains has certain advantages, the major disadvantage of course is the fact that it needs to be replaced every 60K miles or so. Someone needs to develop a belt that last at least 100K miles or more. The cost of the belt isn't the problem, changing the belt is. I had an '84 Honda Accord that was a royal pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to change the belt on. A major project. I have a '93 Toyota Tercel now that will need a new belt in less than 10K miles. It looks to be much easier to work on, but still no walk in the park. And you have to pay a mechanic to do this, you're looking at at least $200. If they can make serpantine belts that last 100K, why can't they timing belts to last this long?

gasguzz · May 2002

zr2rando · May 2002

add that to your list of pros/cons..
I have a big list of good things/bad things,,,
you figure that into the lifetime cost/PITA....
eventually you figure out that some vehicles will dime you to death and others will dollar you to death....good luck dude!

see ya
Rando

bottgers · May 2002

I haven't been able to find one of these 100K belts yet. Who makes them? I'd like to put one my Tercel.

swschrad · May 2002

and called "timing chains." good solid 1920s technology that still works.

bottgers · May 2002

So, you were just being a smart ars. Thanks for the info.

tjlean · May 2002

bottgers,
The newer Hondas maintenance indicate a change in timing belt at around 105k. You can check Honda to see if they make the same longevity on older hondas now.
One question though, anyone knows what's the advantage of timing belt against timing chain? I know that Infiniti went with timing chains on their 2000 models.

wonderwall · May 2002

i wouldn't play around with the belt on a honda...

bottgers · May 2002

The only advantage of a belt is they're quiet. The chain's advantage is they last longer. I'm actually looking for a 100K mile belt for my Toyota. It will be due for a belt change in about 10K miles.

Someone mentioned not to mess with a belt on a Honda. Did you mean don't try to change it yourself, or don't go over the mileage without changing the belt? I can vouch for the difficulty of changing the belt on a Honda. I wouldn't do it again. Huge pain in the ars! As far as changing at the recommended inervals, it depends if your engine is an interference engine or not. If it is, I would definitely change when called for. If you break a belt, or even jump a tooth, your engine is toast. If it's a non-interference engine, just change it when you feel like changing it. No harm, no foul.

fwatson · May 2002

Someone brought up the point before, that the exact same engine calling for a 60K belt change elsewhere, is rated to go 105K in California. That suggests more than a little hanky panky on the part of the auto makers to me.

There is just no reason one would last longer on the left coast as opposed to the east. But to protect yourself if you are under warranty, you better do it according to the manufacturers requirement. If it is out of warranty, and non interference, I agree with bottgers, do whatever you want. The worse thing that can happen is you will have to be towed in if it breaks. Of course that could be a major pain in the butt under some circumstances.

lukjack · May 2002

The only reason it is 105k in CA. is that the state requires a 90k warranty on the timing belt to sell a car in CA. So all the automakers do is factor that into their warranty expense model, and roll the dice. Does not mean that it will live that long. I just replaced my '97 Galant with timing belt. The balancer belt went first so it was vibrating big time, which alerted me to it. car had about 55,000. Cost $600 for timing, banancer, ac, gen, etc. all belts. Oh well, like someone said before, factor it into the price of owning and operating your vehicle.

isellhondas · May 2002

With Honda, anyway, it's 105,000 miles and it doesn't matter where you live.

jsylvester · May 2002

It is also a non-interference engine, just in case it doesn't make it.

That being said, a good old pushrod engine doesn't have that worry.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

swschrad is not being a smart [non-permissible content removed], he is actually going to be proven right.

You will see a marked return to the use of timing chains in new cars, and I predict they will predominate once again. The trend is already clear say the industry experts.

andre1969 · May 2002

...was that chains didn't used to be reliable when they had to stretch further, such as in OHC and DOHC applications. They were fine for old pushrod engines, where the camshaft wasn't a very far stretch from the crankshaft, but the longer a chain is, the more likely it is to stretch and make it impossible to keep the car in tune.

A belt won't stretch, but will fail suddenly, which is why it's best to replace them at a regular interval to play it safe. As time went on though, the chains have just gotten better and better. Now they can make them reach out to the camshafts in OHC engines, and do it reliably.

Just for the record, chains can fail too, especially once the automakers started going towards those nylon/mesh/whatever things in the '60's, to make them quieter (and probably save on costs)

swschrad · May 2002

hadn't heard that, Shifty, it's a nice trend IMHO. as for the other thing, (stuff) happens and then we die. I have discovered that (stuff) happening is not always immediately followed by dying, so big rip.

opera_house_wk · May 2002

haven't heard about heard about those Ford Explorers with the long timing chains and the guides that get eaten up. Length and mass are major problems with chains and the reason timing belts are used. You can go to gears like Toyota and maybe create some new problems.

bottgers · May 2002

I just don't see why they can't make a timing belt for every car that takes one that will last 100K or more. They make serpantine belts that will, why not timing belts?

andys120 · May 2002

sukal · May 2002

Does anybody know which type of engine a 1992 Honda Accord EX has, non-interference engine or an interference engine?
I bought my car with 96,500 miles on it and now it has 102k miles on it and I am thinking about getting the timing belt changed ? Any suggestions about how important it is ?

Thanks in advance.

fwatson · May 2002

This is from Gates Rubber, a major belt manufacturer. It appears to indicate to me that your engine is an interference engine. That makes the belt critical. If it breaks it can destroy your engine.

--------------------------------------------

1992 Honda Accord 4-Cyl. 2.2 L

Application Product Type Part # Comments

  Belt Drive System

   Belts

  Alt. & A.C.

Automotive V-Ribbed Belt K050435

  Alt.; W/O A.C.

Automotive V-Ribbed Belt K050375

  P.S.

Automotive V-Ribbed Belt K040420

  Balance Shaft

Automotive Timing Belt T186 Interference engine application

  Cam.

Automotive Timing Belt T187 Interference engine application

  Timing Belt Component Kit

Timing Belt Component Kit TCK186 Interference engine application

http://www.gates.com/part_locator/index.cfm

swschrad · May 2002

that means if the timing belt slips or breaks, you have the pistons and valves trying very hard to occupy the same space at the same time.

the result is The Man saying, "five thousand dollah, please."

swschrad · May 2002

yeah, I heard of 'em, that's why I waited for my V8 Limited. pushrods are OK if you don't want to rip the tread off your tires when the light turns green. I'd rather tow than screech.

I was quite happy to have Ford recall all the >= KILLER TIRES! =< and get that rip-tread issue out of my hair, too.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2002

I think belts were used to save on manufacturing costs. For one thing, you dont' have to encase the belt in a timing chain cover, with lubrication.

So I think in the future you will see more combinations of belts, chains and gears, depending on the engine, its size, power, etc.

swschrad · May 2002

so all you really save is a buck or so by making the belt cover out of scuzzolite plastic instead of stamped steel... and not having to engineer an oil system.

on the other hand, there are two generic oil problems... getting it where you want it... and keeping it away from where you don't... and there is still going to be a seal under high RPMs on the end of a well-oiled shaft going to the timing belt, which oil will rot quickly. if the seal kept excessive oil back from a chain that needed some, you wouldn't kill an engine from seal failure unless you had idiot lights and ran the engine dry. doesn't work that way with a timing belt.

isellhondas · May 2002

Honda uses a chain in the S-2000's and the new CRV's. I've heard the upcoming 2003 Accords will go to chains too.

bottgers · May 2002

I think it's great that a lot of the new cars will come with a timing chain instead of a belt. But right now, I need a belt for my Tercel, and I'd like to get one that will last more than the usual 60K miles. Do any of you know who makes one, and where I can get it?

swschrad · May 2002

there would have to be a technology gain to get more out of the belt. they're doing pretty well, actually, in belts... but the first little bit of oil and it's downhill fast. reason would suggest if you live in, say, hawaii in constant weather, the belt should last longer than in International Falls, MN.

but almost double the life from one molding house to another? nah. nobody is making noise about the kind of differences (aramid, rubber types) that would indicate a major difference.

lngtonge18 · May 2002

No belt company is going to guarantee it will last that long on your car because your car has a 60k interval. The belt manufacturers go by what the car companies say and make the belt accordingly. There is no such thing as an "upgraded" timing belt. However, you can always risk going longer since you don't have a warranty to worry about and your car will have high mileage by the time it's ready for another change. My dad didn't realize his 86 Accord had a belt. He didn't find out and change it until 105k. It was supposed to be changed at 60k. The belt still looked good when he took it out. That's probably why Honda has upgraded their suggested belt change intervals. They were being conservative. I think thats the same reason why there is a discrepancy on when you should change the belt on Hyundais and Mitsubishis. Both say 60k, but in California, 100k is when it is suggested that they should be changed. There is no way they use different belts. But with a belt, you just have to play it safe. Maybe Hyundai and Mitsu have smaller pockets to pay warranty claims with and therefore aren't willing to risk warrantying their belts to 100k in the entire country. Anyway, just buy a belt and replace it when the manual says. You aren't going to find that magical 100k belt for your car.

bottgers · May 2002

The first couple sentenses of your post are kind of silly. I think it's the other way around. Don't you think if the belt companies made belts that would last 100K, the auto manufacturers would increase their recommended interval? Sure they would. They set their change intervals at 60K because the companies making the belts aren't comfortable with their belts making it for 100K.

At any rate, it looks like I'll be stuck with another 60K belt. My tercel will have 100K on it at its next belt change. It may be a bit optimistic on my part to think this car will go another 100K, but I think it will.

lngtonge18 · May 2002

Certain belts are capable of longer life but are limited in their applications. Chrysler designed a long life belt for their 2.4 liter four banger that was reinforced with nylon (I believe, would have to look back for sure) and increased the change interval to 105k from 60k. This is probably the same sort of belt that Honda uses. These belts came out around 94-95, after your Tercel was designed. Toyota never designed such a belt for the Tercel. The belt manufacturers are going to continue with the original design, not waste the money in designing a new belt that lasts longer. That's what I meant in my previous post. Curiously, was the belt ever changed at 60k? If so, why change it now when you could change it at 120k?

bottgers · May 2002

The original belt on my car was changed at 41K. Why it was changed at 41K, who knows. I'll have to change it again at 101K.

isellhondas · May 2002

Are you really going to own that car for another 60,000 miles?

Relax...there are bigger things to fret over.

bottgers · May 2002

Nope. The car has 91K on it right now. That means I'll be driving it for at least another 100K.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

...can be important! My daughter broke such a belt at approximately 85K on her grandfather's Chrysler LeBaron that he gave her. I got to tow her home after midnight on that snowy evening, but not until after I lay down in the freezing slush under the car and hooked up a tow strap. A kindly policeman held a flashlight on me until it got too cold for him, and he left us there alone, freezing in the dark. (Rather true, but embellished for humor) (:oÞ

glenn43 · May 2002

Are there any conditions that put a strain on timing belt operation (thick oil,high speeds etc.)

bottgers · May 2002

Good question. I really don't know the answer to that. Does your Nissan have an interference or non-interference engine?

paul29 · May 2002

Idling puts the most strain on a timing belt. At idle the cam is turning it's slowest and the shock loads are the greatest.

nippononly · May 2002

...the timing belts were 100K in California because the belt controls the engine timing which is related to the performance of the emissions equipment, which has to be guaranteed to go that long? My Subaru has a 105K timing belt, which I had changed at 100K, no sweat. And the dealer only charged me $180 for it. Seems like it isn't too bad as car maintenance/repairs go...

By the way, I know that all the new Toyotas with one or two exceptions have timing chains, not belts, because I have a friend who just got a new Toyota, and his maintenance schedule has the listing for every model that needs timing belts routinely changed, and there are only four or five specific model and engine combinations listed. Certainly all the new camrys and corollas have chains.

I am glad they are going back to timing chains - reduced maintenance and things to remember. I thought they originally went to belts because they were cheaper, lighter, and quieter?

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

Celebrate the return of timing chains. Undoubtedly the mechanics of America deserve $75.00 per hour for labor, while, say, school teachers draw down one third of that (yeah, there's shop expenses and such) but we don't have to go out of our way to support over priced services from any quarter.

nippononly · May 2002

that they are going back to timing chains - changing belts was such a hassle, and too frequent. Now if they would only produce a more robust oxygen sensor - SUPERsensor! That is another $100+ expense that seems to come along too frequently - almost every time a smog check is due...

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

Absolutely no matter what anybody tells you to the contrary, make sure you THOROUGHLY heat up your car and heat soak all the engine castings just prior to the emissions inspection. This means at least 15 or more miles of driving in warm weather, or even more if the day is cool to cold. I had a bad experience...

nippononly · May 2002

How bad was your bad experience? I had mine fail as a gross polluter one time, which here in California requires documentation of repairs and an appearance before an emissions judge before you can get your reg sticker. That was no fun, and that was the result of a quickie lube type place doing my smog check. That was about five years ago, and since then I never take my car to that type of place any more, but warm up the car extensively and then go to one of those while-you-wait places, where the car will not have a chance to cool off. Plus, I always pay the extra $10 to have them pre-test it first, in case it is going to fail, so that the results are not official if it needs work. I vow never to get one of those gross pollution awards again!!

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I rolled into a fast lube place strictly to get my emissions inspection. Here in the Rockies, we are allowed to fail once, and must pass within ten days, and the inspection station cannot charge for the recheck. I had only driven 4 miles, and I knew better than to do it, but...
The guy "convinced" me that I did not need more heat buildup, and the result was my 50K miles Geo Prizm flunking! The guy suggested that the oxygen sensor was probably the culprit. They are very expensive. I left and went home. That evening I thoroughly cleaned the distributor cap of all scale build up, pulled and checked the plugs, changed the air cleaner, etc. The next day I drove into the mountains and back to town (about 40 miles) and went back to the guy's emission bay for my one-time free repeat. I stood there and watched every step and result. I passed with huge margins below the limits!

nippononly · May 2002

that I was not the only one!! :-) And my car was a 120K Subaru GL. Those quickie lube places should be forced out of business, they are so ignorant and irresponsible. I still change my own oil too. Had a friend who took it to one of those places and they left her drain plug out completely! Well, you can guess how far away from the shop she got before her engine seized up! She had to sue them before they would admit fault, and she was without a car for several months!

bottgers · May 2002

I had a similar experience. I always change my own oil, but last year I had a cast on my arm, and the oil needed changing in one of my cars. I took the car to Jiffy Lube. They have a window in their waiting room and you can see everything they're doing in the bay. I watched one person pour one quart of oil in my engine while the person underneath the car still had the drain plug removed. Since I brought my own oil (Mobil 1 full synthetic), they couldn't just cover up their mistake. When they were finished, instead of owning up to what they did, they tried to charge me the full price for the service, and they had the nerve to tell me that my oil level was a quart low. I told the guy it was a quart low because I watched them dump a quart of brand new synthetic oil right through the engine. I also told him that I'd changed the oil in this car enough times to know that it takes exactly 5 quarts to do an oil and filter change, and bring it to the full mark. He was embarrassed and decided to knock $5 off the service price. I told him if he'd been honest with me in the first place, I would've considered them in the future, and that since he wasn't, I won't.

nippononly · May 2002

Do you know how many people they convince that their cars need a full set of services (new air filter every 3000 miles for instance)? A friend just confided in me the other day that she was so glad that she went to 10-minute oil change, because when she got there, they told her about all the "urgent" things she also needed to have done, and thank goodness they had told her...she spent more than $100 at a quickie lube place!!! AND she follows the maintenance schedule for her car (with my prodding) by going to the dealer, so I am quite sure there was nothing beyond an oil change she needed.

I am glad that dealers (Toyota/Subaru at least) are beginning to ramp up their service to offer oil changes quickly and at roughly the same price as the quickie places, because I think they are in general a bit more responsible about what they will recommend a customer to have done. Hopefully more people that have their oil changed for them will go to the dealer to do it. Both my local Toyota and Subaru dealers will guarantee an oil change in 29 minutes or less or the next is free, no appointment needed, and they charge less than $30 for it. No huge bargain, I agree, but at least that way people probably won't get ripped off for a hundred things they do not really need at all.

altair4 · May 2002

This website gives a list of most cars and also indicates whether they are interference engines or not.

To those of you who think you do not have an interference engine, it's worthwhile double checking. I've seen people on the boards here who were told by the sales guy that their car had a chain or that it wasn't an intereference engine...lies, lies, damned lies! Or they don't know their product...you decide.

Anyway, here's the site:

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=981&location_id=540

Look at the pdf file at the bottom of the page.

Interestingly, most Toyota engines are not of the interference design type.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

If anybody makes a 100K+ timing belt, you can bet that Gates does. They produce superb quality products, and I always take a Gates over any other brand when I can.

sgrd0q · May 2002

I think Honda is switching to chains. The new RSX uses a chain.

fleetwoodsimca · May 2002

I remember my first Renault. It had a gear driven timing set up. The crankshaft turned a middle timing gear that was referred to as a fiber gear. It was designed to "give up" prior to the other two gears getting to that stress level, so that you could change the fiber gear on its idler post, rather than ripping up your crankshaft gear, or the upper gear on the end of the camshaft. No chain. No belt. It still seems like a good way to go.

Doesn't anyone make a 100K mile timing belt?

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