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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado



  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    There were some comments earlier about making excess vehicles and Toyota being able to sell every '07 Tundra, etc. When people make these statements I want to know if they consider the generous incentives Toyota offers at the DEALER level on trucks and SUVs. Last time I checked, manufacturers that have strong demand for vehicles dont discount them by thousands of dollars. Toyota dealers are offering THOUSANDS of dollars of cash on the hood of Tundras, 4runners, Highlanders, Siennas, etc. in my area and I suspect this is true nationwide. To me, this is not differnt from GM relying on red tag sales to drive volume. It seems to be that Toyota is picking up where GM left off in terms of gaining share at any cost.

    Looking at Toyota's operating income, they have incentives and other costs under control. Comparing Toyota to the domestics in this regard is a joke. Domestic incentives outpace Toyota's 3-to-1!

    Dealer cash is just step one in the incentive ladder. The domestics are stuck at Defcon 4!

    Toyota doesn't need to give away vehicles like the domestics do. So don't even bring it up. ;)

    You seem interested in bashing the current Tundra, even though it SURPASSES sales expectations? If the truck was really a problem, it wouldn't sell, regardless of the deal, or it would show just how weak the domestics are here. You can't have it both ways.

    If Toyota can maintain consistent sales for a 5 year old truck, what will the newest, strongest truck on the market do?

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    With Lutz, and now Piech of VW making a very public once over of the Tundra, the word for today is influence!

    Personally, I think it is a bad PR move for the leader of the company to publicly ogle another makers vehicle. Just buy a copy next month, then tear it apart secretly. :confuse:

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I drove all 5 last week. The two best are the Tundra and the Silverado. The others are lacking lets say primarily in performance.

    The Silverado is much more traditional and even upscale in the interior look. The Tundra as with a lot of the new Toyota designs from California ( Calty Design in Newport Beach ) is edgier. Toyota is taking more risks in it's designs.

    The interiors of the two vehicles are intentionally different. The Silverado has small well designed buttons that fit closely together such as you'd find in an upscale sedan. The Tundra has BIG buttons and knobs such as you'd find in an industrial setting. Both designs are intentional. Whether one or the other succeeds is up to the market. In fact both might succeed.

    Alternate viewpoint: This first big work truck from Toyota is designed to fit into a work environment. Being refined inside is not so critical as being capable at work. At a goal of 'only' 200K units it's more important to be solid and basic shooting for the center of the market. At some time down the road, say in 5-10 years when it's fully accepted, then a Lexus look can be added. Too much refinement now might make it appear too 'foo-foo'.

    Butt ugly
    Too Big

    Sounds like a truck to me.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I would also like to get the opinion of the GM detractors on hybrids. GM is fully committed to hybrids while Toyota remains the only foreign company to appear serious about hybrids. Honda is dumping the Accord hybrid and will offer only two models in the future. Nissan only has one and will sell it in 8 states. Hardly a hug commitment to saving fuel if you ask me. Since people generally believe that domestic automakers are committed to guzzling foreign oil while the Japanese love the earth I think the level of commitment to fuel saving technology is interesting.

    I am in no way a GM detractor. I am critical of bad decisions that result in bad policies or bad vehicles. I think GM has jumped right up behind Toyota in the hybrid vehicle race..... providing ... providing the new 2-mode vehicles do what they say they can and that the vehicles remain well made in 3-7 years.

    Ford is ailing and has very little money to do anything dramatic except survive for the next two years. R&D money for new technologies is scarce I believe.

    Chrysler/Dodge and unfortunately Jeep I see as being on a death watch. Money is scarcer yet and the parent company is going in the diesel direction.

    Honda is the only other real hybrid player and it's split between small hybrid vehicles and diesel midsized vehicles.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota and GM, with their established relationship, are coordinating their efforts in order to promote hybrids in NA.
  • Good heres my top 5

    Toyota Tundra Motor Trends Truck of the year 2008
    Ford F150
    Dodge Ram 1500
    Chevy Silverado
    Nissan Titan
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    Here's my top 11

    GMC Sierra Denali
    Cadillac Escalade EXT
    Chevy Silverado
    Toyota Tundra
    Hummer H2 SUT
    Chevy Avalanche
    Nissan Titan
    Lincoln Mark LT
    Ford F-150
    Dodge Ram 1500
    Honda Ridgeline

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    It was in a very popular song........

    This is Our Country, This is Our Truck ;)


  • ahoronahoron Posts: 30
    That song sucks. Why do you need a crappy song to sell trucks? Toyota will be number one in the full size truck in a few years. They did it with the cars. The quality is the reason. Toyota will likely join the heavy duty segment in time and take it over as well. Only time will tell Just my opinion, don't get too upset please!
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    I won't get upset. The Silverado, won't have to worry too much after the hype wears off. Toyota, is limited to 200,000 units so they won't budge on sticker prices. I know one guy at work that has a 07' Tundra on order but is second guessing his decision once his friend rolled in the parking lot with a 07' GMC Sierra Z-71 LTZ. I was like Cody, I told you the new GM trucks are "that cool" ;) I'm trying to convince him to get a new Sierra Denali ;)

  • You think Toyota will take over full size trucks in a few years? Do you remember the T-100?
  • ggesqggesq Posts: 701
    Only time will tell I guess. Regarding the T-100- good point. Toyota is NOW taking the full size truck market seriously as evidenced by the new Tundra.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Toyota generally does things at their own speed and often takes baby steps. If the view is 20-30 years out then what occurs in this particular year or next is not all that important as long as there is movement toward the final goal.

    From the Corona to the Camry as No 1 was at least 30 years.
    From the Toyota pickup to the Tacoma is nearing 25 years.
    From the T100 in 1993 to the Gen 4 Tundra in 2117 would only be 25 years.

    All in good time.
  • hpia4v2hpia4v2 Posts: 62
    Once GM/Ford gets rid their excess baggage in the form of medical/pension on those retired auto workers I can't imagine Toyota will have the upper hands anymore.

    Let's see...
    Ohh... all the works (Toyota/GM/Ford/Honda) are done by non-union workers in the continent of USA!

    Right now I am looking to get a real1/2 ton, I like Chevy Silverado for styling/price proven 4-speed tranmission and Toyota for the 6-speed + reclining rear seats. But the hold out for me on Silverado is the AFM 6.0L engine, not sure if it'll last 100000 miles without any problem on the valve lifters. At the end I just need to make sure the truck I am buying will fit my needs, I can careless who makes it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The AFM from SOTP reports and from Edmunds review last week seems to offer little or nothing in real world fuel economy. A figure I've heard is about 5% improvement at best. Edmunds seems to find that it's Long Term Silvy is very poor overal though.

    I believe that Honda's findings on the Accord Hybrid and Odyssey are also modest at best in terms of fuel economy.
  • gearhead1gearhead1 Posts: 408
    It amuses me to no end how people talk about the interiors of these trucks. It's irrelavent whether you want the stodgy interior of the Chevy or the more progressive interior of the Tundra (though, I'm not a fan of silver plastic).

    If your buying a vehicle in this category, your looking for capability and it boils down to powertrain. When it comes to powertrain, the Chevy is a distant second place. With a 6.0 liter engine that has a 4 second lag (Edmunds) to make its maximum horse power which still falls significantly short of the Toyota 5.7 liter, it really is no contest. On top of that the Chevy has a 4 speed transmission with dead spots in the power band (Edmunds). The 6 speed tranny on the Tundra will pull that monster to 60 mph in 6.3 seconds. This 0-60 time speaks directly to how it will handle a load under tow as opposed to the "sleepy" (Edmunds)powertrain in the Chevy.

    Chevy rushed its truck to market to take MTOTY. It brought a knife to a gunfight, and it's apparent they were outgunned. The tranny is critical when delivering the power of the engine to the wheels. How could GM even consider bringing a 4 speed to market when they knew Toyota had a 6 speed coming? Once again the domestics are asleep at the wheel thinking "Don't worry, the japanese can't compete with us in this segment. They are wrong, very wrong.

    Real truckers are always curious about the biggest, baddest truck out there. Even if they are loyal to domestics, most of them will be curious to drive the Tundra. The new Tundra is to big for my needs and probably to big for many current Tundra owners, but it will appeal to the legions of half ton domestic owners that feel/need to own a monster. Toyota is probably banking that current Tundra owners will find either the smaller Tacoma or the huge 07 tundra will meet their needs. We'll see.
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    toyta gonna be #1, toyota gonna sell 200k units,
    Its gonna stand on its head a spit nickels and
    out perform everybody else !

    What a laugh ! Its taken years to barely break
    the 100k mark. But the new excuse is they are gonna
    sell 200k this year............

    Heck it took them a few years to offer a FACTORY
    installed trailer hitch !
    Someday they MIGHT offer a factory snowplow prep
    pk. like the big 3 do !

    PLEASE spare me on toyota wiz-bang 99 speed automatic
    transmission and the failure of other mfrs. not offering
    them yet (except Cadillac and Ford)! Put down the koolaid and take a trip
    over to the 07 camry problem thread(s) and read about
    the new transmission and its MANY complaints and issues!

    I need some of that koolaid ! :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Well balanced post.

    But what is true now is that in what the Tundra does offer it kicks the butt of the other 4...significantly. Yes the detroiters will sell more 2nd ( or 3rd ) rate trucks with more options but it's not a sprint to number 1 it's a marathon to making the most profit.

    In that race the other 3 have been lapped - twice. This Tundra when it begins to hit it's stride will just make the gap bigger btw T and GM/F/DC. Heck they might be 3 laps back.
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    Me thinks that the jury is still out on the tundra
    "kicking butt" on the big 3. I still haven't done
    a specs compare on payload, towing weights, etc....

    Time will tell if the new trans. is or will be as
    problematic as the camry unit. (Yes I KNOW that one
    is Front wd vs. the trucks rwd)..............
    Most likely the same design principal ?

    But as far as someone who actually WORKS their truck
    the tundra is a also ran with NO plow prep. option.

    I DO love the posts here on the tundras interior esp.
    the comments on the big and EASY to use controls (with
    gloves on)and how innovative they are !

    FUNNY when the GMT-800 design came out in 99 with those
    big buttons that were also easy to use with gloves on
    the zealots mocked GM and its "playschool" designed
    controls right here at Edmunds !
    But now that toyota does it its wonderful, fresh,
    thoughtful did I mention innovative?..............
    Sheesh ! :sick:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Subject by subject...
    I've done the comparison and the only truck in the Tundra's class is the new GMT900's ... but it's next to impossible to get the top-spec'd vehicle. The standard 5.3L and the standard 6.0L are only a distant 2nd. The Silvy does haul well and looks nice inside but that's it.

    The F150 and Ram are very old and WAY behind in capabilities, although the F150 can tow well - as long as it's done very slowly and there is no need to accelerate.

    BTW on the Camry transmission issue, tempest in a teapot. The people with driving problems are very vocal as they should be but the number of actual complaints to the NHTSA is a massive...... 35.... out of 450,000 units sold. That's the extent of the problem.

    There is a snow plow package in the works. It will likely miss this winter but be available for next winter.

    The interior controls are a good point of discussion. I actually do like the Silverado's look better as being more upscale... but is it too nice to be a truck? Especially a work truck. I do think the buttons on the dash are way too small for a trucking environment. But this is styling and it's one place where someone will always be displeased.
  • gearhead1gearhead1 Posts: 408
    toyta gonna be #1, toyota gonna sell 200k units,
    Its gonna stand on its head a spit nickels and
    out perform everybody else !

    Yep, they certainly will. 200k in the full size truck market is nothing considering the previous Tundra was selling 100k plus. The Titan will probably take the brunt of that blow. The rest will easily be carved out of the big 3. I can guarantee that Toyota will be a major player in the full size truck market. Toyota is renown throughout the world for making bullet proof trucks that can handle anything.

    What a laugh ! Its taken years to barely break
    the 100k mark. But the new excuse is they are gonna
    sell 200k this year............

    Denial is a good thing, it can prevent or at least postpone a nervous breakdown. Keep at it.

    PLEASE spare me on toyota wiz-bang 99 speed automatic
    transmission and the failure of other mfrs. not offering
    them yet (except Cadillac and Ford)! Put down the koolaid and take a trip

    More denial? Dismissing the the new Toyota 6 speed is akin to the big 3 dismissing the Camry in the early 80s.

    over to the 07 camry problem thread(s) and read about
    the new transmission and its MANY complaints and issues!

    I'm familiar with with Toyota's growing pains. The difference is that Toyota will recognize and correct these problems quickly where the big 3 typically just keep plodding along with their quality problems. Granted they have made big improvements, but they are painfully slow in coming. The new silvy is a big improvement over the previous generation, but even many rabid GM fans admit that last generation GM trucks were very sub par (see GMI) to be kind. It's funny that in the year that Toyota offers a true full size contender, GM finally gets their act together and offers a really good truck (despite powertrain deficiencies ie. 4 sec lag, 4 speed). If you want to give your business to a sub par company that only gives a quality product in the face of fierce competition instead of quality being part of their DNA like Toyota and Honda, be my guest.

    If anybody is drinking kool aid it is domestic fans that buy one poor quality vehicle after another because they think it's their patriotic duty.
  • You're an idiot. The F-150 is too old? Way behind in capabilities? It just came out in 2004, horsepower #s aside, still meets or beats all other competitors' capabilities. Are you one of those people that thinks a truck needs to be brand new every year?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Personal insults flying everywhere... It's like an episode of Jerry Springer.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    c'mon don't hold back. Say what you really mean.

    I know that the F150 just came out in 2004 but..
    .. the powertrain is the weakest of all the 5 competitors at 300 hp;
    .. it is impossible to get Stability control on any F150 at any price;
    .. in addition to having the weakest engine it also has the heaviest frame so it's doubly slow;
    .. 4 spd tranny vs Tundra's 6 spd; it should have had the new Ford/GM 6 spd from jump street;
    .. all the airbags are not standard; this is a common shortcut Ford is taking across all product lines ( extra money ).

    However in balance..
    .. with it's very strong frame it is second behind the Tundra in towing capability;
    .. just don't try to accelerate very fast with a load;
    .. it can be ordered with a heavy duty payload package ( extra ) which gives it best-in-class hauling on 4 configurations - but at a price.
    .. it has been proven to be very reliable and durable.
    .. can Ford spend enough money to give the next Gen a competitive top-end drive train?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    The interior controls are a good point of discussion. I actually do like the Silverado's look better as being more upscale... but is it too nice to be a truck? Especially a work truck.

    How many average owners are going to own the Silverado, for a work truck ???? The majority of the people that have work trucks buy diesel HD 3/4 & 1 ton's. ;) The half ton owners buy trucks because they can haul house hold furnishings, tow a boat or trailer once in a while. In many cases they want the 4x4 capability for inclement weather and sometimes hunt and fish making a truck the practical vehical for throwing a carcass in the back or fishing poles and tackle boxes in the bed. A 1/2 ton truck is simply a mans automobiles that his spouse likes enough to drive or see's practical use for one.

    These of course are my opinions based on family, friends, co-workers, and self experience of owning a truck. My wife for example want's me to buy a brand new black 07' GMC Sierra Denali. I told her I want to wait for the 2-mode hybrid since it will achieve the desired fuel economy I'd want. ;)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    That's a good alternate view and one that everyone involved will be watching.
  • geo9geo9 Posts: 739
    Keep drinking that toyota koolaid...............

    Less than a full size (aka height) bed, bottom of the heap
    in towing capacity, NO snow plow prep. pkg.(yet GM and Ford
    DO offer it in a 1/2 ton.
    No wonder its called the 7/8 full size pickup !
    Someday yota will catch up!
    Wish Edmunds would update their truck specs. on the 07 yota
    so it could be compared to the others.

    toyota mAY later than sooner innovate rather than imitate.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993

    You forget it has the optional 5.7 381 hp V8 that is the best thing since sliced bread even though it get's 13 mpg ;)

    God, I can't wait for the Sierra Denali coming out this March to put the Tundra in it's place and it will leave no stone un turned. ;)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Have you been under a rock for the last 6 months?

    The new Tundra hitting next Monday is the Beast of the Market. It's bigger, wider, longer and more powerful than any other 1/2 ton in existence. I can't believe that you have missed all this. Hellooo.

    The baby 5.4L 300 hp Ford is the smallest and the weakest of all the big engines in the segment. It's only about 2/3rds of the Tundra's power. I'm shocked that you've missed everything. Did you know that there was an Auto Show in Detroit this year.

    OK I'm poking fun but seriously the F150 is actually the weakest and slowest of all the 5 trucks in the market now. The new Tundra shown at this years Detroit Auto show is the biggest truck on the market. Stupid big.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    You crack me up with this stuff... keep it coming! It's hysterical (assuming you know about the new for 07 Tundra). If not, you should learn about it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Careful Rock... the Tundra and the Titan smoked the MT TOTY in fuel economy in Edmunds test. Not to mention acceleration and stopping ( and likely towing since the MT TOTY has that secret 4 second hiccup which GM conveniently didn't tell buyers about ).

    The Denali better be good. The Silvy lasted in 1st place for 3 weeks. There is also a couple of other dark secrets that no one has mentioned about the 2007 Silvy. The 6.0L doesn't really tow 10,500# as the specs say it should. Well it does, but you can't buy one. It's a little dark secret that you can buy a 6.0L but it's only as capable as the 5.3L!!! The 5.3L is the smallest and least capable of all the 1/2 ton's neck and neck with the 5.4L in the F150 for last in the segment.
This discussion has been closed.