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How many folks are going to be able to keep Hybrid up to stuff, mechanics have trouble enough with the latest OBD II vehicles. What's it cost you every time the CEL (check engine light) comes on? And how often does it get diagnosed correctly the first time? How many people on a tight budget get the car checked with the light on, if the car still gets them from A to B?
Then we add the new electric part of the equation, the learning and training curve is much higher for the Hybrids and will be for sometime, than compared to Common Rail Diesel which is very similar to the gas systems now.
It will be bad enough when the industry switches over to the 42v system soon for all vehicles in preparation for the Hybrid to be standard or to save money on commonality. Besides the common rail diesel would be a much better fit for Hybrids. Ie Diesel electrics been around for many several decades.
You can get more diesel per barrel of crude with less energy spent to refine, so I'm told.
And over on the Futura board a lawyer noted that the California CARB has embraced the Common rail. So all the stuff I've been reading must be fairly close about how clean it is or soon will be.
Another EPA change would be nice, SUV get much better MPG, but someone would really complain about there profits! The common rail would easily do that with even better performance but another industry would then complain about profits.
I've finally half figured out OBD II to half trouble shoot it myself.
What I don't trust is the numbers/baseline for clean air, humans I'm sure would survive on best on no pollution, but how real world is that in the next 50-100 years?
No I won't buy a Hybrid, but put a 2.0 - 3.0L common rail diesel in good bang for the buck drivers car and I'm in the market. Mercedes just introduced a 320 with diesel option how can they and not Detroit? something rotten in the US or is my CEL on again?
Sorry for the long, but I'm do consider myself the caretaker of my little portion of the earth sorta semi-tree hugger, we still do have to eat. Cats and O2 sensors are not cheap! Besides I finally got the hang of OBD II troubleshooting with the sharing help from another car buff web site.
Paul Echelberger
N8BUU
Wasn't the Hindenberg filled with hydrogen on its fateful day?
I too would like to see more diesels but I think people in this country are a little scared to adopt them right now due to the fact that diesel isn't on every corner like gasoline is. I think if more gas stations would add a diesel pump, more people would be willing to try a diesel out.
VW has been using turbo diesels for years with good results (i.e. people like them). However, and I don't know the numbers so I'm guessing, the gasoline versions of their models probably outsell the diesels by a large margin.
Rant over.
Say how about a Sprinter Van? Daimler's offering to the US (full size van market) with only 2.7L MB diesel & 5 sp ATX.. My nephew manages a Fed Ex in PA and their Sprinters are in the 21 mpg range. Good use of the engines torque range evidently.
One more story that got my attention of this vehicle and the new common rail diesel. Last Christmas a blind student (Ham also)from University of Toledo was telling about a Sprinter (configured as bus ). He commented to the driver "what this have in it", "everytime you take off it sets me back into the seat hard"? He told me " he couldn't believe it was a diesel, quite, no smell and it's acceleration feel couldn't possibly be a diesel. Not sure what the oil capacity is on this motor but I'm sure the drain interval has been bumped up.
My point you don't have to have a 6.0 or 7.3L unless you just have to have a BIG trailer? My son has a 95 E-350 7.3L that he can merge onto a freeway at 30 mph (on ramp) and next thing I know I'm in the back with a half dozen big rolls of carpet and he's in the left lane @70 mph. Not to mention his big %%#$ grin. Now I know why likes that noisy diesel and 15qts every 5000 miles. He also helps friends pull stumps/etc out of the yards. And he scouts for deer in farmers fields, they are use to that agricultural sound he says. KIDS.
Trying to get my son to go to a freightliner dealer to check one out. Jeeze dad those things are too tall and weird looking????
I'll be quite now!
Paul
N8BUU
Here are my four top choices of things to do. Puting more money into my 1996 626 is not an option, since I think it has been a terrible car and will be money wasted.
1. Buy a second (I already have an '03) Pontiac Vibe. Who can argue with having a second "Corolla" in their driveway. It is fun to drive, is reliable, and is pretty darn versatile. The '05 will be out in August, and has some minor upgrades which are of interest to me.
2. Buy a $10,000 Kia Rio Cinco wagon since it is cheap, has a great warranty, and has 0% financing. This is merely a throw away car, designed to last 4-5 years until some more hybrids come off the drawing board and into people's driveways. It also gives me a chance to see how reliable the Ford Escape will be over time.
3. Buy the Chevy Malibu Maxx I have been eyeing for 6 months. This is undoubtedly the king of versatility, has great V6 gas mileage, and is very comfortable for tall drivers like me, and on and on....HOWEVER, recent electric steering issues have cast a cloud over the reliablility of yet another of the General's cars.
4. Buy the first year Ford Hybrid. Keep in mind that I have never bought a US company car and owning a Ford scares me to death. Couple that with the fact that half of my worthless 626 is failed Ford parts, and you see my problem. Of course I need to see the hybrid in the next few months to see if Ford made it easier to change the oil myself, than does Mazda, by leaving those stupid aprons off of the Escape. I also need to see the price of the Escape, since I have little stomach for spending $25+k on any vehicle.
The Ford rep told me that she had heard that the price would be very close to the current '05 model. If that is true, I bet the Escape hybrid will sell like hotcakes since their main competition will be a $30,000 Accord hybrid, and a $35,000 Highlander hybrid. Any way you cut it, an Escape hybrid at $25k (or less) with a Mazda 2.3 liter engine sounds pretty sweet.
I look forward to all your suggestions. One thing I would like to know (as a US auto-phobe): is the electric engine in the Escape from Toyota, or is it a Ford invention? I'm guessing the latter since it took Ford so long to get this thing to market and work out all the bugs. Two reps today gave me polar opposite answers, so I am still in the dark. OK: let's brainstorm....
As for the rest, let me meditate on them...
A WRX if you want to have fun, or an Outback Sport if you're practical? The new Legacy also looks sharp.
The Ford Focus wagon with the 2.3l PZEV engine is peppy and clean, too.
Vibe/Matrix, or even Scion xA or xB for the price are good values.
Lots of options out there in small wagons.
-juice
Juice: the list you gave me are cars for short people. The Mazda 3 is a two seater plain and simple. I even got in a 6 wagon over at the Patriot Center this weekend, and it is way too low to the ground; very hard to get in and out of, and has lousy gas mileage.
No, sticking to the list above, the options are the Vibe (new or used), the Maxx with a clean bill of health from the service department, or taking a chance on the first year Escape Hybrid. Right now, the Escape has the upper hand since gas prices will be escalating again next month, and probably will never come down again.
It's 180 lbs lighter and the 2.5l now makes 168hp so it should be more efficient. Plus they have a PZEV model, wish we could get it here in MD.
I like the Maxx (you'll probably recognize me from that thread) but I'd like it better if it were less hatchback and more wagon.
Another Vibe? Dunno, I always thought each car in your fleet should serve different purposes. I have a Miata and a Subaru Forester.
-juice
If people simply want 2 seaters, they should ask their favorite car manufacturer to stop puting in back seats at all. It simply is wasted space, since most of these cars (with the exception of the Vibe, or the Maxx) don't afford any room for a normal sized human being in the back.
As for the Escape, I may call in a favor with someone who works at Ford to see if I can swing a deal on a Hybrid; or find out if I'm going to have to wait in a very long line to have the opportunity to wait in a longer line to get one.
Anyone have any thoughts on the Escape's 2.3 liter engine? I thought it might be the Mazda 6's, but it appears based on the horsepower, that it is a special engine Ford made for the Escape Hybrid.
The only difference is in the PZEV label, which means that it has a few more emmissions controlling items, to help with pollution.
Average sized adults can fit, maybe really tall ones will feel squeezed.
Though cars with unusually large back seats, if that's what you want, include the CR-V, Element, Scion xB, and Maxx.
Relax, erik, tell us how you really feel. LOL
-juice
http://wardsauto.com/microsites/newsarticle.asp?mode=print&ne- wsarticleid=2719604&releaseid=&srid=10250&magazineid=- 1004&siteid=26
States like MD give up to $2000 tax incentives, or 5%, whichever is less. On an Escape we're talking $1250 or so. But that doesn't nearly offset the premium.
On a $40k SUV like the RX400H, you get the full $2000 credit and Lexus is saying the premium will be $3000, so the net premium cost is just $1000.
-juice
Juice: since you are my neighbor, do you know if VA is giving tax incentives like MD is? I know I can use HOV here, but what about the cash???
In regards to the Toyota technology, the 2.3 liter engine in the Escape hybrid will put out 135 HP; when mated to the electric power, it will put out 155. Mazda 6's 2.3 liter engine puts out 160 HP. Is the 2.3 in the Escape some form of that "Mazda" Duratec engine?
HSD implemented in Prius shows that it has power efficiency of 1.91%. It has 76hp engine and performs like a 145hp ICE only car(more responsive). If you apply that to Escape hybrid, it would perform like a 257hp ICE only car!. BUT, a big but, Escape hybrid's electric motor is only 70KW(Prius had 50KW). Electric side of Escape hybrid is a bit under power, therefore, power efficiency should be lower than 1.91%. Ford is claiming that it will perform like the 200hp V6 Escape. This make the Escape hybrid power efficiency at 1.5% which is totally achievable. Escape Hybrid might even outperform the V6 model.
Dennis
(Ford Escape hybrid) after all ? - snip - Ford Disputes View That Its Hybrid Is a Toyota:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_levin&sid=azDp8xWV5rsU
rfruth,
It sounds like Ford escape is a full hybrid much like a Prius. It seems, the design is technically the same, developed seperately, but Toyota patented it first years ahead. If Ford play the cards right, it can achieve the same efficiency(191%) as HSD. ES has 70KW electric motor but HH and 400h will have 120KW electric motor.
Dennis
Automaker's do this with various items/options within vehicles, and buy techonology from one another. There's numerous items Toyota has bought from Ford, and vice versa. Just in this senario, it's media spin to cause some attention... You can take it either way, in a positive way, or a negative way. But because it's Ford, of course the media is going to jump on it.
So far, there's no power figures for the 2.3L Hybrid system published just yet. What IS publically known is that it'll produce V6 like performance, and as previously mentioned, I wouldn't doubt it if it were a BIT quicker than the V6 version.
IIRC I don't think many parts were involved either. It sounded like it was mostly software to me.
The Bloomberg link above explains it better than I can.
OT:
I love what Lutz had to say about the hybrid. That coming from a guy who stuck a V8 in a stretched Cavalier and proclaimed it an icon makes it ever more of a joke!
So when should we expect to see that hybrid RAV4 with a Chevy badge on the hood?
I don't think demand will be high enough for either of them to merit a "special" hybrid model anyway. Probably costs too much to design the whole package, interior/exterior/drivetrain, for all three.
They are very similar but Mazda and Mercury would want to develop their own custom interiors and exteriors just as Ford has done with the Escape hybrid. Neither one of them sells enough gasoline versions to offset that cost. In fact, I don't think Mazda or Merc sell enough vehicles period to offset that cost.
Maybe you'll see them with the next gen or after Ford gets completely back above water financially.
HOV lane access is not too shabby, though.
I thought Ford licensed hybrid technology from Toyota, vs. buying it. Perhaps they use some of the same suppliers. If so, I still wouldn't say they're buying it from Toyota.
-juice
As for the Toyota technology, I'll keep dreaming that there is some there - there. With Ford's track record on reliability, I'll take every bit of Toyota tech I can get. Even if it is in my dreams. Thanks as always Juice.
http://wardsauto.com/microsites/newsarticle.asp?mode=print&ne- - wsarticleid=2719850&releaseid=&srid=10250&magazineid=- - 1004&siteid=26
This from the first Escalade, where the Navigator just took that segment, and ran and totally shocked them. The same with the small SUV, whereas only now they introduce something competitive with the Escape, Rav4, CR-V,, the Equinox. (I'm not mentioning the Tracker since that was a joke).
I've been following his words on Hybrid Techonology, and how he continues to deal with fuel cells, when the competition is at least dealing with Hybrids. Another segment he doesn't wish to participate in, is in the CrossOver segment, which includes the Freestyle and Pacific...Just watch 4 years from now. The Nomad concept already HINTS at that type of possibility.
And I won't even mention their determination over keeping OHV engines....
SO Hybrids are certainly not something we'll see from GM in the next 5 years.
I love the 2004 Prius and a friend of mine has one, but it does not fit my outdoors life-style.
http://www.fordbetterideas.com/tc/home.html
That's actually more it. Ford and Toyota apparently have a deal going where each is licensing components of the other's hybrid technology. In a sense Ford is "buying" it from Toyota, but not how we usually think of it. They aren't receiving a part or some other goods directly from Toyota in exchange for money. They are merely paying a royalty to Toyota so they can modify their proven technology (only software in this case if I'm not mistaken) to fit into the Escape's Ford developed system. Part of the deal requires Toyota to pay Ford for some of their new stuff as well. I think it states all of that in one of the links posted a little ways back.
Ford has to do it this way because Toyota does hold many many patents on the technology already. Ford ended up developing a similar system but decided to go the safe route and pay Toyota rather than wait to be sued.
Notice that neither of them have gone the route of Honda's simpler IMA system. Probably because it doesn't yield the same fuel savings as the more complex Toyota system.
On another note, I just got around to reading the MT article in the latest MT last night and noticed something I haven't seen before. They have a full page "sidebar" on where hybrid tech is heading in the next year or so which includes a few paragraphs on the hybrid Escape. They mentioned that the Escape will employ two electric motors to power all of the wheels. However, the second motor will not be specific to the rear wheels like that in the upcoming hybrid Lexus SUV. The hybrid Escape will still use the same electronic on-demand 4WD system found in the ICE version, but I guess it will have a little more help from the second motor when needed.
Could they possibly be using one motor on each front half shaft?
I am guessing that Ford doesn't want to add software codes for the third electric motor to power the rear wheels. Or they did not have enough time to implement and test it so, they went with the traditional 4WD system.
Dennis
Lexus can get away with that because they already charge a premium for the ICE version so people will be willing to pay more for the extra goodies on the hybrid version. Hard to do in an entry level SUV. Mid-sized maybe.
Besides, the hybrid Escape is already going to have performance that is greater than or equal to that of the V6 ICE which is good enough for anyone IMHO. As long as you don't need the towing that is.
-Thanks,
S
On another note, I mentioned that there was no plan for a hybrid Mariner or Tribute. It was just announced recently that Mercury will offer a hybrid Mariner for MY 2007. Still no Tribute though.
1. nice drive. I read that it is car based, and it handled like a car
2. nice visibility. I like sitting up high
3. when I started it, it reved up real high as if it had been sitting on the lot for a few weeks. It did not calm down in the time I thought it should given how warm it was outside, so I decided to throw it into gear anyway: no clunking sound. That's a huge vote of confidence coming from me (I am on my 3rd "Ford 626" transmission).
4. The fit and finish seemed OK. The back carpet atop where the battery will be installed pulls out too easily. I know this since everyone at an auto show I went to was attempting to find the storage compartment and spare tire. The spare has been moved underneat the vehicle in preparation for the Sanyo battery. Therefore, '05 gas versions give up storage of jumper cables and the like simply because this car is made to accomodate the hybrid's needs. Also, Ford removed the side nets and put a hard plastic part there instead. I'm not sure of the logic, other than to store tools which normally would go into the bin atop the spare tire.
5. headroom and legroom were excellent for me.
6. I found the appointments a bit plain jane looking. As a Japanese owner, i was suprised by this. As is the case with Chryslers, I expect the US cars to shine in the interior comforts. Other than the steering wheel, which was very nicely appointed, I thought the interior simply looked plain.
7. I drove the 6 cylinder since my dealer said they don't stock the 4. I found the power in the 6 to be a bit lagging, or it was because the vehicle is heavy; I'm not sure which.
8. The oil filter is right underneath the bumper where it belongs. Very easy to change. I only hope it will be in the same place when they mate the electric powerplant to it. I suspect it will.
As for the hybrid version, despite being Ford, I expect this thing to fly off the shelves. Right now my only negatives are that it does not have a telescoping steering wheel, and it appears as if the mark up will make it a bit unreasonable of a purchase in its first year or two.