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Comments
1. There is a fist sized hole in the engine block that they had not seen before. It is in the one-third.
2. It appears as if the connecting rod did let go and the damage it did was bad.
3. The turbo charger is now trash as the oil line is full of metal filings.
4. The front two injectors were trashed and the head badly damaged (number 1 and number 2 cylinders).
The dealer told me that they have a call into Chrysler to see what they should do as they did not expect to find this extra damage.
I am hoping Chrysler coughs up the rest of the money to fix this thing but I will not know until tomorrow afternoon.
There is a used one on EBAY for $4400.
I sure hope the dealer can get Chrysler to cough up for a new one!
Best of luck
Months pass and you still don't know what will happen to the vehicle...
Today European diesel fuel costs 1.50 Euro per liter (~8 USD /Gal), VW-Audi injector-pump technology plus their particle filters are a source of unpredictable costs for repair and sudden immobilization of the beautiful German cars, lung cancer observers point towards finer particles going deeper into peoples' lungs, etc, etc!
In fine, why push these little engines to their limit?
This is a waist of time, energy and a threat for ones' savings. "Farout" called his CRD the 'Green Beast' and I thing he was right, in the present context
Yesterday, the dealer told me that a connecting rod had failed but he did not say which one. "The failure was catastrophic", using the words of the service writer. I am hoping for some positive news sometime this afternoon. He even suggested I call my insurance company to see if they will pay anything.
As to more that can go wrong, I agree to a point. It all depends on how much effort was put into building the systems as simply and as rugged as possible. As to finer particulates, what do you think comes out of the exhaust of gassers? Why is there a black film on the inside of the exhaust pipe?
Caribou, your question about pushing these engines to their limits, think cost. To build these properly would add about another 50 kilos to the weight of the engine. With heavier components to move inside the engine, you use more fuel and produce more emissions. That added 50 kilos would significantly increase costs, cut profits and make it harder to sell diesel power. I will bet your bottom Euro that the governments in the EU had much to do with eliminating those 50 kilos of reliability. Thus your term "motorcycle parts" fits.
As to color, my Jeep has not been all that bad except for being blue instead of green.
I read that Jeep will again use the same basic CRD engines in the Wrangler, and the GC Jeep. Infact there are some places that look for the Chrysler 300 to get a CRD. I wonder what they are doing differently?
So you like the news?
I am a little surprised that Chrysler is going to use VM engines in their domestic offerings since Fiat makes diesels also. I would have expected a conversion to the Fiat diesels.
A call to Chrysler headquarters is in the offing for Monday. I have already booked the flight and the Jeep best be ready and in 100% working order when I get down there on 5 May.
At this point I am becoming quite miffed.
Thanks for keeping everyone updated.
I am going to call a few other dealers in Florida to see what they charge. I have a funny feeling I am being taken for a ride, but I am going to see that the train gets de-railed, pronto.
In the meantime, I have called my insurance company to see what they can do.
Wish me luck.
or go with a used engine. I see them on EBAY occassionally for between $4,000 and $5,000.
http://used-auto-engines.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/engine_request.html?sid=6DoJfi2iYE- po5TH-22111609365.1d
you can do a search on Autowreckersonline.com and put it our all over the USA and Canada that you are looking for an engine.
Much cheaper to install a complete engine than to repair yours.
Best of luck: Bob
Also, it would be great if I could get some recommendations about what other work should be done while I am doing this job. The water pump seems like a unanimous yes. I still have my original EGR valve and have been thinking about disabling the thing before it goes bad. Maybe this is the time to do that. The Pro-Vent kit I have read about in this forum seems like another good thing to add to this job. Since every CRD owner will need to replace a timing belt or two, this Post could be very popular reference if we put everything together.
Thanks in advance!
The tools you refer to many say are not necessary, what they do is lock the cam into position. some asy that nothing moeve anyway, others use drill bits to place into the alignment homes.
Mine has 76k on it and I am going to wait until around 120k as you have to do the job.
There is another gut on the lostjeeps forum who has the machinist tools hand has re-designed the thermostat. The thermostat is a sealed unit that is over $100, where the actual working part inside is about a $8 part.
What he does is cuts it apart and machines it so that it is a simple job to replace the working part inside. He charges $100 and a $100 core charge which he refunds when you send him your old thermostat housing. From then on it is only a $10 job and a simple exposed 3 bolt installation as opposed to a couple of hours changing out the big housing.
There is also alot about the provent system on there, the provent will cost anywhere from $160 to $200, ther are several guys who have made there own, for very little, I picked up one on Ebay for $160, mainly because I did not wnat to mess with something that might drip oil on my driveway.
An in-tank fuel pump is another nice upgrade. The Jeep is already wired for it and the directions are on the Lostjeeps forum website. I bought one on EBAy from a 2005 Dodge diesel truck for $20 and it was not hard to install. it is the fuel level sending unit wiht the fuel pump built in. Only trick was I needed to add 2 wire connections that I took from the unit I removed from my jeep (my jeep had 2 and the new one required 4, although both plugs are 4 wire, the jeep had 2 blanks and the new one needed 4, so by removing 2 from my old unit i soldered them into the new one and all was fine.
if you do this, drive your jeep until the tank is low on fuel to get rid of the weight (you have to lower the fuel tank.
Best of luck: bob
There are few decent mechanics for these diesels in the USA. So if you want to own the CRD you need to be up on what it needs or the mechanics will really take you for a ride and may do more harm than good!
1. The front quarter of the lower block was blown away. The front of the block was intact but the lower one-quarter on both sides was gone as was the the first four inches of the bottom of the oil pan. The holes in the block were at least six inches in size.
2. Number one connecting rod is gone. The part that goes around the crankshaft journal is present. The upper part of the connecting rod where the wrist pin goes through is also there plus one inch. Everything in between is gone save for a few shards of metal. The bearing surface of the wrist pin part is clean and shows no evidence of oil deprivation or discoloration. I was able to rotate the crankshaft by turning the flywheel. I was able to grasp the remainder of the connecting rod on the crankshaft journal but was unable to move it very much. I was told that the amount of free play between the connecting rod and crankshaft journal is quite limited.
3. The inside of the oil pan was clean save for a thin layer of oil that has dried onto the surface. I reached up into the block through the larger hole and found no sludge of any kind.
4. Every accessory mounting bracket was broken or gone. Even the mounting bracket for the CP3 pump was fractured at it's mounting points.
5. Number one glow plug had two inches of the tip sheared off, the other three were fine.
6. Number one injector: the tip was flattened a little bit. The other three looked fine.
7. Turbocharger: looked okay. I could not see any metal fragments in the oil line as I had been told was the case. However, there was some free play (wiggle) in the shaft that supports the two fans. I was told that this was not suppose to be the case.
8. I obtained the oil filter and a goodly amount of oil. I also took the fuel filter and that was full of diesel. I am going to have both analyzed, the oil for fuel contamination and breakdown and the fuel for any gasoline contamination. I also took the K&N air filter. It was in good order and not over oiled.
9. The fragments of the block I saw were surprisingly thin, about one-half inch thick only. I expected thicker. What I could see of the crankshaft was in good order and clean.
10. The head and valve cover had not been removed so I was unable to inspect the state of the combustion chambers or the inside of the head.
11. The block was clean other wise with no evidence of oil leakage. The rear main seal was in good shape. The intake was clean save for a thin coating of oil/soot and the inside of the intercooler was likewise. The cold side of the turbo was clean as was the hot side. All of the blades I could see showed no sign of foreign body ingestion.
I think you are wist to have the oil and fuel filter tested. Document everything with times and dates, just in case you find a responsibe cause.
Gas in the diesel fuel could do it, and a defective or callapsed oil filter might also, but in this case the rods would most likely be frozen and the engine would not turn or turn with difficulty.
Will be interesting to see what you discover.
As I said in my post the remaining part of the connecting rod that was on the crankshaft journal did move a little but with difficulty and I was told that the clearances are pretty tight.
If the oil is responsible then LubroMoly will pay.
The service manager at my dealer feels that the Florida dealer, who still has my money, is obligated to go through with the repair. I am working on the letter to the CEO and that should go out this week. I am also going to file a complaint with the Florida State Government Consumer Affairs to see what they can do/suggest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock
Also, that injector should be evaulated by an expert.
You may have liability on the injectors manufacturer, if its failure caused the hydrolock.
Somehow move fluid would have entered the combustion chamber than the piston could compress. If it was water you should have noticed significant whate smoke prior to the incident occurring. Water would have had to originate from either a bad tank of fuel or a blown head gasket or cracked head, or you drove through enough water to suck it is through your air filter. If fuel, it would have had to come through the injector, which would have had to have had a complete internal failure.
This is also why I stay away from K&N type air filters that require oiling, too much oil can get sucked into the cylinder.
I would also grab your K&N filter and get it out of the dealers hands ASAP. Even if not the cause, it gives them a good argumant.'
I have the air filter which I took to the purchasing dealer for evaluation. No excess oil found and in fact, it was fine. The injector in question, #1, has a slightly smashed tip but I also have #2 injector which the Florida dealer stated needed replacement. It was pronounced fine by my purchasing dealer. Both injectors were clean and had not deposits on them.
As to fuel, I have the fuel filter. I will pull the WIF to see if there is any water in the fuel but since no lights came on, I doubt it. The fuel looked clear and clean.
As to K&N, they state that their filters will not void any warranty. They have told me and I have seen it in their ads.
And another tidbit. Both the Florida dealer and the local dealer told me something rather revealing. Whenever they have had new or reman engines at their places, they have always received numerous calls from other dealers to buy the engines from them. That is bothersome.
"The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage." (link)
I think what usually happens is that a warranty claim is denied and then it's up to the owner to go chasing after the manufacturer (or the aftermarket company) to prove otherwise. Lot of hassle and expense.
I have been using K&N filters since the early 90's and have never had an issue with them or have had any problems caused by them. I also know how to clean them and oil them correctly.
How can one imagine that a Hydro-lock condition would have formed in the combustion chamber?
The two exhaust valves allow to flush out the eventual droplets of liquid and the flow of the fuel pump is rather small because of the incompressibility of liquids. Are the exhaust valves still present?
If an injector goes bad, stays open, its cross section is too small to flood a normally 'ventilated' cylinder.
In the early 1980's, I had an Isuzu diesel and I had a hydro lock situation that bent an exhaust valve but did not break the connecting rod.
What I am finding distressing is that whenever a dealer has one of these engines in their inventory, they get many calls from other dealers looking to buy the engine from them. What is your take on this?
As I said I was able to grasp the remainder of the connecting rod that was on the crankshaft journal and it was difficult to turn. I am wondering if there was a lubrication issue.
I am at this point getting the Florida Department of Consumer Affairs involved because of the behavior of the dealer.
If you have a piece of your connecting rod, can you have it analyzed by a metallurgy lab ? (Characterization, Structure, etc...)
Usually a lubrication issue is noisy and warns you at least 5 minutes before failure occurs
I've not heard nor read complaints against THIS VM engine. But are they really all made in Italy :confuse:
The Isuzu diesel should have had a roto-diesel / bosch (distributor) like system in those days. I still can't figure how this can flood a cylinder but if you had a 'Recaro' pre-combustion chamber, then yes, you could bend a valve. I repaired such an engine on my 109 Land Rover :sick:
I do have a piece of the connecting rod and your idea to have it sent to a metallurgy lab for analysis has much merit. If the rod failed because of bad metal chemistry then Chrysler would definitely have a problem with me. You once referred to these engines being made with "motorcycle parts". I did expect the piston end of the rod to be beefier.
As to lubrication, there was no warning whatsoever, no noise, nothing.
As to my old Isuzu, it was a pre-chambered engine and did have a Recaro Chamber. It was amazingly quiet at idle (once warmed up and in hot weather). but I also learned about cetane improvers early on and that helped too.
Here is one for you, Jeep and some other small Chrysler made vehicles are to have VM engines, according to www.Alpar.com. I have found this web site to be right all the time. So I would think unless there has been major changes this too could be a huge costly mistake.
Have you got your CRD back, and what was the final cost? Have a good Memorial Day weekend.
Farout
If anyone on this blog is ever in Melbourne, Florida, avoid Gator Chrysler-Jeep-Dodge.
http://www.gotengines.com/
Bob
What city State do you live in? And to anyone else who has had significant aggravation with their Liberty Diesel and the dealer(s), I want to know what State/country you live in. The letter to the new CEO of FIAT/Chrysler is in the final stages and when Sergio Marchionne sees it he will be spitting his teeth through four inch armour plate. I have a funny feeling that even though this guy is Harvard or Yale schooled, I really wonder if he knows what kind of dealerships he has inherited??? :confuse: :confuse: :sick:
Years ago here, one of the diesel posters talked about the Cummins 4bt. Just saw a thread on a wrangler forum where someone is doing just that in Florida. Seems a state(states) doesn't (don't) care what's under the hood.
Oh, add Grapevine, Texas to your letter. The crd was driven across the street from the Mopar store to the Hummer dealer and became the trade-in for better_half's H3.
The H3 is closer to correct than our JKU Rubicon. And the local GMC dealer, great service writer, fixed our H3 exhaust that we paid the Hummer dealer to fix earlier. We let the GMC dealer then do the radiator flush, got a new rack and pinion, and paid for a new crossmember and replaced the tranny filter. About the amount of one of our old payments and the H3 feels brand new.
- If he wore a clean overall he was not trust worthy,
- a few stains and dirty finger nails were a sign of professionalism,
- the dirty looking guy was simply left aside...
Well, today the personnel of our Jeep dealerships is dressed to go dancing. Do you really think they want to get dirty working on an engine problem?
I'm beginning to realize I'm getting old
I am in the process of writing a letter to the editor of said magazine and sharing my experience with them. It would be interesting to see if anyone at Chrysler reads that magazine or even any of the blogs such as ours.
I am happy that you are happy with your H3. I was once a big fan of GM but after one really horrendous experience in the late 70's, I will not go back to them. I have driven some of their stuff over the years as rentals and I found them marginally better. They felt cheap, tinny and in general had numb steering. When my wife and I were looking for a new car, we tried a Malibu and an Equinox. Again, the numb steering was an issue and you had no sense of what the wheel were doing. The seats were too firm for my bum and the doors had a tinny sound when you closed them. We settled for a 2010 Mercury Milan Premier. Very comfortable seats, communicative steering, a plush ride but also very good handling traits plus the four banger is pretty reasonably on fuel and adequately powerful. I do miss the torque from the CRD but I am learning to live without it.
In all honesty there are fewer and fewer mechanics who are willing to do a good job and share their knowledge with customers. Many dealers, more than in the past are not interested in offering good service any longer. They just want to sell.
Bought a used '68 R69S/US from a shop whose owner was a big burly man who went from Harley Davidson test driver to WW2 GI.
He wore the white overalls, a mark of a profesional, and a bike man a machinist extraordinaire he was if not the businessman.
It was thrilling to see him test drive a bmw boxer leaning forward with full throttle going through the gears down the boulevard.
We traded a first year last generation of Malibu V6 in on the Wrangler. The Malibu was fine until constant weekly if not sooner interstate trips into OK got our butts tired. Replaced the front struts thinking we were taking the place of the suspension (tried to buy monroe struts with springs but not available) . Other than that and probably an air bubble in the dexcool from the factory doing its' damage, it served us well.
We test drove the original Equinox, three times over its' run with the $850 chinese motor and it was pathetic ride and drive.
Again when I Congratulated you when you first got the Milan, I mentioned we have never had a bad seat in a Ford. Our problems were the dealerships and the mechanics. Too late I found a service advisor (rest in peace Danny) one who raced Chevies because they were cheaper to rebuild for the next week's race. He sent his customers to the last remaining real mechanics who hadn't quit, in part to flat rate times set by Ford.
The good part of today driving to the other side of the metroplex to Ohio drive, was to see a discount tire manager I first met in 1992 and we talked and he personally balanced the duratracs that he forced balanced 18k miles ago. There are a few who still care, but it is a rare event, and always cherished by me. The side trip down the street to get the fix refix for the wrangler is on hold and has me rethinking everything.
The other FoMoCo I drove extensively was my mother-in-law's Taurus. The seats were barely tolerable for more than one hour and then I had back and leg pain. I added a lumbar support pillow and that was helpful. The trans on that car was terrible and it burned up with less than 23K miles on the car.
In general, it is hard to find a good reliable garage that is run by a good, honest mechanic. I have one here in my hometown. They are cheaper than the dealer but not by much but their work is exemplary. The Chrysler dealer where I purchased my Jeep is one of the few dealers with decent mechanics and a good work ethic.
I have fond memories of my first car, a CJ-5. That was a decade before the Tercel, and I've blocked out the rusty gas tank and ripped to shreds cloth top. :-) It is fun to see the lineage in the current Jeep lineup going all the way back to the military Jeeps.
Enjoy the Milan!
Due to the increasing cost of fuels and to the complexity of recent diesel technology to meet various air quality standards, would anyone consider a 2.5L turbo/volumetric charged 'Flex-fuel' four cylinder engine ?
Move in a linear way a series of magnets stacked between a pair of opposite pistons (sharing a long cylinder or two opposed cylinders interconnected by a non-ferrous casing) and you have an efficient fixed field AC generator. Combine this design with an inverter and you can power your home using methanol obtained by fermentation of your lawn
This sounds like the end of traditional transmissions if you consider a DC motor in each wheel :shades:
But a recurrent question arises: on which criteria will we pay our taxes ?
Some how or way I stopped getting this forum, and it took a couple of trys to get it restatted. My hard drive got messed up so bad I had to completely start over like it was new. I was not goung to pay a computer guy $ 85. to correct it as I did.
I sure hope you got the CRD back and settled.
farout
farout