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Jeep Liberty Diesel

libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
I'm not due to the smell and noise of diesel.
«134567224

Comments

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
    I really think you should take this over to the Jeep Liberty forum. Thanks!

    tidester, host
  • jlp8885jlp8885 Posts: 13
    today's diesels- common rail or even the old versions (vw's tdi) are still exponentially better than 70's and 80's diesels
    because of the liberty's high weight, it won't get the 50mpg of the american jettas and golf tdis or even the 100+ mpg of the european vw polo or toyota yaris (close to the american echo) but it will be much better than the 15mpg the liberty currently gets
    if the liberty could get 30-35mpg, I would be very interested as that takes the gas mileage penatly of buying an suv out
  • I suspect it may get the Benz E300D power-plant which is a great engine.
    The Cummins engine used in the RAM trucks would literaly break the Liberty under its weight!
    Are there other options?
    In Englands the Dodge Caravan comes with a turbo-diesel.....
    Did you see the VW Touareg (The Porsche CAyenne's "seperated at birth" twin) will have a 2.5 liter turbo-diesel in addition to the big 5 liter V-10 TDI in Europe.
    That's the ultimate SUV, but pricing is halfway to the Porsche from the Liberty price.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    It may be the co-op in Volga. That is where he lives. He is always bragging how much less he pays for diesel than I do in CA. It would be good to see if he is making up stories. I wonder what the advantage would be to mixing only 2% biodiesel. Seems like extra work for little gain. In your case it is a loss. We only have one station in San Diego that sells B20 and it is a long drive. I am afraid to void the warranty. We have the best diesel available right around the corner. I have only used BP ECD-1 since it was new. All diesel will be to that standard next year hopefully.
  • docralphodocralpho Posts: 50
    I'd like to see this forum continue as this engine option is rather unique and the topic gets lost in the Liberty forum. I have seen 2 engine options which may come-- a 2.5 liter and a 2.8 liter engine, one built by Mercedes and another by, I believe, an Italian firm. The Europeans and Aussies apparently already have the diesel versions--in fact they may be being built in Toledo. I have heard about 20 miles per gallon in city driving. The newer diesels are much better as to emissions. The Euro diesel gas has much less sulfur in it due to better refining techniques used. Thus the odor is further reduced. The diesels have very large torque, less hoesepower; they may be turbo charged. I hope persons with further knowledge will post here on this topic. The diesels may hit the USA for the 2004 model year.
  • cb70cb70 Posts: 226
    Right now I am looking at an Element but a diesel Liberty would draw my attention.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Posts: 265
    According to Dieter Zetsche of Daimler Chrysler.
    The Liberty will get a 2.8L common rail turbodiesel produced by Daimler Chrysler AG's VM Motori subsidiary in Italy. It will be a newer version than the 2.5l diesel now used in the Liberty's European model, called the Cherokee. Zetsche says the diesel Liberty will be 30% more fuel-efficient. A manual or automatic transmission will be available and the SUV will be offered in both 2 and 4 wheel drive, but I'm not sure which version of automatic transmission will be used?
  • diegob1diegob1 Posts: 10
    greetings, as I have a Diesel Liberty 4x4 I thought I would write in... I have a 2.5 diesel 5 spd manual. The Turbo lag is enormous, but otherwise it's a fine car. I get 11,5 lt/100km (town only) and 9,2 lt/100km (highway @ 120km/hr) at an average speed of 80Km/hr I got 8,8 lt/100km.
    There is also a 2.8 - 5 speed automatic available.
    Both engines are identical & have intercooled turbo's. They are manufactured in Italy (Cento) by VM. This company is owned by Detroit Diesel, henceforth their appereance in Jeeps. The engines are very advanced with common rail injection & have a high torque (343Nm & 360Nm ). They are robost & require services every 20 000 Km.
    I hope this helps...
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Posts: 265
    Thanks Diego every little bit helps. I don't know what the US Jeep dealers will require yet. Actually they don't know themselves as they don't have anything on the 2.8 diesel that we will be getting this summer.
  • hhhhhmmm...
    Using my Macverter... that comes out to about 20 to 27 miles per gallon.
    I guess that's better than the 15 to 20mpg they get now!
    The guy at the car show said September.
  • deuskiddeuskid Posts: 20
    I am strongly considering the Jetta TDI but am also considering the Liberty [gee, I wish there was something between the 2 sizes]. I like the idea of the continous rail technology but am wondering about the rest of the Liberty?

    Is the 'non-engine' parts of the Liberty quality?

    Just which engine [who makes it and where] will be in the 04 diesel Liberty?

    thx
  • renolibertyrenoliberty Posts: 12
    You do know that only about 5000 diesel Liberties are supposed to be available the first year it is offered or at least that was the word some months ago.
  • ekkoh99ekkoh99 Posts: 17
  • colorado1974colorado1974 Posts: 177
    DCX has stated that ten thousand will be sold here as test mules to see if America will accept them.
  • renolibertyrenoliberty Posts: 12
    "The Chrysler group on Monday, Nov. 25, said it would proceed with a 5,000-unit run of Liberty diesels after concluding that gasoline-electric hybrid technology is too expensive. There are 3,309 Chrysler-Jeep dealers in the United States and Canada, according to the automaker."
                              -- Autoweek, Dec. 02, 2002

    Not quite two per dealer! Shouldn't be easy to get one. So is there new info on the production run since then?
  • colorado1974colorado1974 Posts: 177
    My dealership contact at Chrysler stated that after receiving enormous positive feedback after the first public announcement, they bumped that figure to 10,000 units. I know I already have 10 people waiting in line ready to put a deposit down.
  • natescapenatescape Posts: 176
    Wait until the end of the year when VW will bring back the Passat TDI (and wagon) with the new 134 HP, 247 lbs of torque TDI!
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    I might consider one. I'm really not a fan of the liberty and would much rather have a diesel in my Cherokee, but life goes on.

    I have no worries about a diesel vehicle. My VW TDI is fantastic and enjoy it much better than any gas economy car. Performance and economy are much better, plus it's rather substantial in weight/feel.

    No doubt an SUV with a diesel will be in demand. Some folks might be scared away by the diesel just because they don't know any better. My Jetta is more quiet on the highway than most gas cars.
  • oceantoadoceantoad Posts: 186
    Is it 2004 or 2005 for the release of the diesel?

    Has there been any word on the towing capability?

    I do want one.

    Still a happy camper.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    Last I read they were saying Sept. of 2003 which would make it a 2004 model. They're on the streets being tested here plus have been going to Europe in this configuration for quite awhile. Shouldn't be any snags with putting them on the streets here.

    I imagine the specs/capacities will be close to the Liberty that they sell in Europe with the 2.8L CRD. The only thing that seems surprising to me is the towing capacity. They rate it at 3500kg which is about 7700#. I can't imagine them specing it to tow that much weight here just because of the chassis size. I would guess they'll limit it to 5,000# just like the V6 but it would likely pull the weight much better than the V6. It has 266lb-ft of torque at 1800rpms which is vastly better than the 3.7L. Top speed 108mph (i'm guessing governed) and 0-60 in 12.6 seconds with the automatic. Anyone that knows diesel can tell you that 0-60 time doesn't mean beans unless you just happen to be dragging from 0-60. At most real-world speeds I'd expect the diesel to feel quicker than the V6, particularly in hilly areas.

    Ecomomy in Europe is around 27mpg combined cycle which are typically high compared to US city/hwy averages. My guess is it will average 25mpg with a 21mpg city and 30mpg highway.
  • kyjeepsterkyjeepster Posts: 11
    7700 lbs towing capacity. Not while I am driving. It is bad enough to have a 3000# 28' pontoon behind a Cherokee.

    I am looking forward to the diesel Liberty and this will probably be the factor to move from my 1992 Cherokee Laredo to the Liberty. I love everthing about the Cherokee but the 16 mpg gas mileage. My 4 banger Wrangler does better with closer to 20 mpg (with stock gears, 3" lift, 32" tires, dead wait of offroad armor and winch) but it is too small for the family or cargo carrying. I just wonder if the aftermarket will be ready for the Liberty with propane injection and NOX for the 2.8L TD.

    2.8L. Scary. That was the worst gasoline engine used in a Jeep.
  • oceantoadoceantoad Posts: 186
    Any new articles out there on the diesel?

    At this stage not knowing much about the diesel Liberty, I intend to buy one in the second year of production. So far it sounds like it will fit the bill for me. Towing, mileage, carrying the dogs, I think it is what I need.

    Will keep my Wrangler, but sure wish I got the 20mpg that KYJEEPSTER gets. I get 15mpg on a really good day. I got 11mpg on a 240 mile trip driving into the wind.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    I doubt they'll be any real snags considering the liberty has been out for awhile, and this same vehicle has been sold in Europe already. It's not really a new vehicle, just never sold here. The only problem I see is with dealers servicing and it's doubtful that will get better over just one year. VW has been selling the TDI here since '97 and most dealers are lacking in knowledge. Although most are generally lacking regardless of diesel vs gas. I would think hooking-up with a good Jeep shop that has competant mechanics would be my main concern. A diesel isn't that difficult to work on, but some things are different and might confuse the average dealer jockey.
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Posts: 265
    According to Chrysler the Jeep Liberty Diesel will be a 2005, and will not be out until after Jeep has stoped making the 2004 Libertys. D/C, in my opinion, is crazy to wait until 2005. They could get the jump on everyone else and have a SUV of size to be a family vehicle that gets very good mileage. Just think, they would have a SUV that would average what a Honda Accord gets now. Europe is begining to work on exhausts to trap the particales coming from the diesels. After the oil companys remove 85% of the sulfur from our fuels here we will begin to have vehicles almost as good as the Europeans.
  • Even at 30% increase in fuel milage, I doubt it will offset the added cost. I would be very careful about buying something no chrysler mechanic has ever seen before. It may take a few years before they are comfortable working on them.I would hate to be the guy who's car they trained on. I'm in the appliance repair business and we see it all the time. Trying to figure out a new product which even the factory support people are not familiar with causes endless head aches for everybody. Other than that, I think its a great idea.
  • Not everybody looks at the added cost and bases their purchase solely on that. There are other factors here... lot's of torque, possibly a longer lasting engine, possibly the ability to use biodiesel. If the price of fuel shoots up then won't you be glad you have 30% more mpg?
    Diesel technology isn't exactly rocket science... the technicians will have manuals to refer to.
    The cost of having a diesel or a hybrid might not always offset the added cost, at least not right away, but some people want to start a revolution and maybe do the right thing for the environment.
    If nobody gives it a chance, then the auto manufacturers will use it as an excuse to drop it and then we will be perpetually stuck with old technology gas guzzlers.
    Kudos to companies like Toyota for introducing the Prius at a loss just to get the idea rolling. Once these vehicles become mainstream, the production costs will lower and they will become profitable.
    Unfortunately most companies don't see it that way and will end up jumping on the bandwagon later on when they finally realize they should get with it.
  • Unless DaimlerChrysler gets with the program on their Jeep Liberty Turbo Diesel, I will have to go with the new VW Touareg V10 Turbo Diesel next year. I don't get it...the Liberty (Cherokee for the rest of the world) has been on the market for a while now and all DaimlerChrysler has to say to me is..."The Jeeep Liberty is still a "concept" vehicle here in the US". How can it be a "concept" vehicle here if it's sold everywhere else?
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    I don't know if that Toureg TDI is a sure bet next year either. I've been hearing gumblings about that, along with some serious teething issues with the gasser Touregs already on the streets. I love VW/Audi but even I avoid new models for a couple years.
  • DC has told thier dealer body that as soon as the last 2004 Liberty rolls off the assembly line next June, the diesel Liberty with the freshened look will start to ship to dealers.

    What DC is setting in place with this new diesel is a dealer body that can repair it, parts stockpiles in thier distribution centers, repair manuals in US english, contracts with suppliers for more engine blocks and other production parts, an allocation system to put them where they will be the most wanted, emissions systems that will allow the Liberty to meet the tough NE and CA emissions standards and so much more.

    Distributing something new take more time than a year or so, that is why they have postponed unitil the 2005 model year.
  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    Who's making the engine?
    I am all set to order a 2004 and asked my dealer
    he is as confused as everyone else. There also apparently other issue in the 04 configurator pertaining to the Limited. Anyone else seeing any issues?
  • Any idea on what the US base price for the Liberty Turbo Diesel will be?
  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    Email from my dealer does say that they will be making a limited number this model year, but had no idea when they would hit the show room floors or the price. Stay tuned.
  • I own a dealership and Chrysler told me June of next year at the earliest.
  • VSQRVSQR Posts: 5
    WOW thanks for the update. Think I'll move forward with a gas guzzler.

    Have you any ideas on the Borla exhausted mentioned in other postings about improving the
    mileage?
  • I love it. I installed it on my wife's Liberty. I sell them on ebay in case you want one.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    The answer is easier than you might imagine...

    The published schedule for avaliability of the required VeryLowSulpherDiesel fuel in the USA is 2005. All of the 3rd generation super-high-injection-pressure diesels will quickly clog up if the dirty USA diesel fuel is run thru them.

    Europe has been enjoying at least 2 generations ahead of USA with wonderful diesel engines due to the USA lagging behind in clean fuel. Anyone that owns a VW TDI can attest that the dirty fuel tends to 'clog up' the intake, exhaust, turbocharger...etc.

    I still like my 53MPG with enough torque to pass on the highway with ease.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    DaimlerChrysler diesel meets future regulations

    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6078

    NOTE:
    "The test was conducted using low-sulfur European diesel fuel"
    ALSO;
    "Chrysler will build as many units of the diesel Liberty as the market demands. "
  • I am still waiting on the diesel Libby. My 1992 XJ Laredo just had to have a major re-conditioning to keep it up to my standards of road worthyness (new suspension, new brakes, minor upgrades under the hood), but that should keep it running strong (for about 2 years) until the diesel is available in the US. The last time I discussed this with the local stealership, they informed me that it would be another year before the Libby would be available, but I suspect that the vehicle will not be released until mid MY2005 because of the cleaner burning diesel not available in the US yet.

    We have to remember that these diesel KJ Cherokees are currently being built in Toledo for export. So we are not waiting on DC to work out kinks in the vehicle or production. I think we are waiting for the oil companies to catch up with the technology.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    I think they're more waiting on the dealerships to be able to handle the repairs/maintenance. Without a good network of trained shops with the proper parts and tools, this will flop with the likes of the old GM debacle. VW really doesn't have the proper network of qualified repair people to work on TDI's, but they get away with it for the most part just because they're VW. Many VW TDI owners are enthusiasts or do their own mechanic work so it's not an issue. I don't see joe-blow SUV buyer being in the same crowd, although I'm sure many diesel enthusiasts will flock to this vehicle. The public mainstream is what they have to worry about with this vehicle.

    Jeep sells in such quantities, that this HAS to be a flawless rollout. I have no worries about the vehicle being sound, but if the dealerships can't provide decent service and advice it will seem as if the vehicles are the problem.

    I'm not aware of anything on these vehicles that low-sulphur fuel will effect. Low-sulphur is needed for advanced emissions controls, but I haven't heard if these motors will be built with anything like that initially or not.
  • I too am eagerly awaiting the Liberty diesel. I have owned 6 diesel Volkswagens including 3 of the newer "TDI" generation.

    Allow me to respectfully disagree with the statements by sebring95 which indicate that VW dealerships or independent repair shops are not prepared to service the TDI diesel-engined vehicles.

    VW started selling diesels in 1977 in the USA. Wtth the exception of a few years in the mid-1990's, when VW sales were at their nadir, VW has pretty much continuously sold diesel vehicles in the USA over the time from 1977 until now. Tee TDI Passat was sold from 1996-1997, and the very popular Jetta and Golf TDI cars were made available in 1999 and continue today. A very significant number of TDI cars are sold by VWoA each year, and dealership techs see these cars in VW service bays daily and have a great deal of experience with them. The TDI engine has a very good reputation from any VW tech I've ever talked to ( having owned 15 VWs in life so far ). Many VW techs, at least at dealerships of any size, have plenty of experience working on diesel cars, and there are lots of independent shops out there that specialize in VW repair that have savvy VW-diesel techs.

    With regards to owners and their diesel VWs, well, true, the diesel VW-owners are more tech-savvy in my experience than the gasser-VW-owners, but you see a clean break relating to the age of the cars. The older
     70's, 80's, early 90's diesel VWs are FAR less complex to work on than the TDI-engined cars. You do see a fair number of folks wrenching on their older diesel dubs. However, aside from an oil change or tire rotation, most maintenance or repairs on TDI cars are way out of the shade-tree mechanics realm, and often diagnosis of faults requires expensive and or specialized shop equipment. Hardly any TDI owners working on their own cars, at least if the car was built post-1995.

    You'll find that if you ask a VW TDI owner, you'll likely get a very positive response regarding their TDI. If the Jeep diesel engined vehicles ( Liberty ) engender the same goodwill from owners as the VW TDI cars, it will be a very good thing for DC.

    Matt Brickell
    Lee's Summit, MO
    VW Sales Guild 2002 ( top 1% of VW sales consultants in North America ) and 15x VW owner
    current:
    03 Jetta TDI wagon 5 speed
    83 Pickup ( VW )
    87 Quantum Syncro ( AWD )
    03 MINI Cooper 5 speed
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    Of the 16,000 members on a certain TDI site and my personal experience with local dealerships, I say the majority of VW dealers are incompetent when it comes to TDI's. They've had plenty of time to get good at it over the years, but in general it hasn't happened. I didn't say anything about independent shops being incompetent. I believe it is easier to find a VW specialist that would be much better than the dealership for repair work. Doesn't help you when you've got a warranty paying for all the repairs.

    I've personally corrected many mistakes made by dealerships with my $300 software and a few tools. I've fixed cars (and I'm NOT a mechanic) for people on the verge of trading their nearly new TDI's on a Toyota because of a simple problem that the dealers only action was to try and replace every part on the car. I've witnessed several cars with dealership timing belt changes that were not timed correctly. There is one dealer within 100 miles I would use if I absolutely had to. They're actually the smallest dealer and in a rural area, but have a guy that's very good with diesels.

    Jeep needs people with lots of training for this to work properly. Most aren't going to have any experience in things like turbos, various electronics, and the overall different characteristics of diesels. Dodge, GM, and Ford would have a better chance with their US dealerships because most have diesel mechanics on board for their heavy trucks.
  • I wouldn't brag too much on VW dealers. Of the 30+ new vehicles I've purchased in my life, I found the VW dealers more costly for prevenative maintence work than any other automotive dealers I have ever been to in my life. I loved the TDI but could no longer put up with charging me for things that should be covered by my warrenty. The VW dealers put me out of the VW business.

    Jeep will have little to no problem with the diesel they are intorducing in 05. I hope they add the diesel to other vehicles too.
  • I appreciate your opinion, but based on extensive personal experience with VW diesels, the vast majority of which was gained far before being involved in any professional capacity with VW, I continue to disagree.

    Had you said in your original post, that "in your experience" your local VW dealers were not positioned to service TDI cars, that's one thing. My issue is with your blanket statement that VW in general does not have a network of competent repair people and gets away with it. May I ask what facts, statistics or extensive personal experience at the VW dealership service level substantiate such a broad statement? (Really, neither you nor I, when you think about it, have even remotely enough personal experience to warrant such a comprehensive statement). I've found that aside from small VW dealers ( and even some of those ), most VW service departments have a couple of techs with plenty of TDI experience. I see fewer disgruntled clients of mine who own TDI cars than any other sort of VW, by far. I've worked at more than one dealership and found this to be the case. I've lived all over the USA and owned diesel VWs and found the same level of service available to me as when owning a gasoline-powered VW. I'm puzzled to hear that your area seems to be unusual. In our administrative area, for instance, of about 20 dealerships, the average completely satisfied service survey percentage is approximately 90% across the model range. I have not seen in my personal experience where diesel service clients are any more or less satisfied with repairs than any other group. If anything, the diesel VW owners are more critical than the norm, but beside the point.

    Anyway, I'll agree to disagree here. I maintain that the level of experience and competence with TDI cars at VW dealerships is little if any different than with the gassers, aside from a small town dealer ( not many of those with VW anymore). The volume of TDI cars through the service departments is high enough to rate working on a TDI at a VW dealership as routine. No magic to working on a TDI for an experienced VW tech than a 1.8T really, I don't think. I'm just basing my opinion on my own experience with my own cars ( quite a few, some old, some new), and that of a couple of hundred clients, not the world. Anyway, back to relating to the diesel Liberty...

    In my area, the majority of Jeep dealers are also Dodge/Chrysler dealers. Given the popularity or the diesel Ram trucks, I'd assume any given Dodge dealer would have a decent amount of experience working on diesel vehicles. Agreed, though, that like any type of car these days with very sophisticated systems and electronics, a large amount of training and significant investment in diagnotic tools and repair equipment will be necessary to adequately service the Liberty diesel properly. I've spent time in a VW dealership service department, and seen first hand the level of training and support given to VW techs on the TDI cars. Also remarkable is the commitment of most of the techs to doing a good job on the diesels ( and others ). Easy for the general public to bash dealership service, but I'll bet the average person would be quite surprised at the average level of competence and commitment to their TDI product in a metro VW dealership service department.

    If Jeep techs get anywhere near the amount of support and training on the diesel Liberty as I see our VW guys get on TDI Jettas, I think aside from perhaps some initial teething issues as experience is gained ( like anything else ), the Jeep Liberty diesel folks will be in good hands. I may buy one myself!

    Cheers!

    Matt
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Posts: 4,085
    Minor correction.... it is NOT Dodge-Chrysler it is Daimler-Chrysler (aka DC) They have been building and selling Diesels for many years in their Mercedies line of automobiles.

    BTW-- Have you seen that Honda has tasked their Senior Chief Engineer Kenichi Nagahiro into building a Diesel engine. This guy concieves world-class engines. Times they are a changin...

    http://www.waitnews.com/honda_diesel_engine.htm
    http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=136769
  • Preventative maintence for my 02 TDI New Beetle cost me twice and almost three times as much as my 2000 Ford Power Stroke diesel. All the Dallas, Tx VW dealers charged you for things that should have been covered my warrenty. Ford or Dodge did not do this. The fact that I also owned recent model Dodge cummins diesel and three Dodge mini vans in addition. The preventative maintence cost was also much less than what the VW dealers charged. I also pull a 5th wheel all over the US and have done business with other dealers too doesn't make me an expert. I'm just giving you the facts.

    VW is not the same same as when I owned several of the old VW bugs in the 60's. They now try to rip the customers off and I'm to old and to smart for that kind of service.

    Oh, I've had other automobiles and trucks too. Dodge and Ford both have good dealers who try hard to sevvice their customers. As for the Jeep liberty I've only test driven one but I have driven the old Willis Jeeps a bunch. Adding a diesel to the Liberty will be the perfect match.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    Check out Volkswagon Owners: TDI Models for some interesting dealer "issues". A $3,000 EGR cleaning made headlines today. Talk about incompetent. Pretty bad when an amateur like myself could have diagnosed this and fixed it within an afternoon, nevermind a month. How many liberties will sit around for a month because a Jeep tech doesn't know about possible EGRs clogging? Not an issue in Europe where they have diesel that isn't garbage.
  • Not having enough good techs is a problem with Dodge. This is the reason I changed from a Cummins diesel to a Ford diesel. I was uneasy traveling with my Dodge for just that reason. I had a tech in New Mexico take care of an issue that my dealer in Mesquite, Tx was unable to fix for six months. I actually travel more in my Truck because of the 5th wheel than I do in my mini van and I don't like troubles on the road.

    Even though Dodge, Jeep doesn't have as many dealers as GMC & Ford they do have more than many others and I want to be able to find a dealer when I have issues while traveling.
  • I got bashed because I stated that our diesel fuel was not of the quality of that in Europe and that might be the reason for the hold back on American Diesel KJ production. The you post that VW has problem in servicing thier TDI's in the US because of our crappy fuel.

    Why are you posting here instead of JeepUnlimited where that kind of poster bashing is expected.
  • sebring95sebring95 Posts: 3,241
    What are you talking about? Who "bashed" you? I simply said I thought the roll-out delay was for service/dealer prep reasons. 2005 hardly gets us to ULSD which isn't due until 2006 at the very earliest, and that's assuming it doesn't get delayed.

    The TDI's have a tendancey to gum up the intake, partly due to crappy fuel. This isn't the reason VW dealers have trouble servcing TDI's, it's because I feel their training leaves a lot to be desired. You can avoid the intake gumming up by running a quality fuel which is available in the states, my TDI being an example. ULSD isn't required to avoid this. ULSD will be required for more advanced emissions controls. The same crappy diesel that gums up the intakes, will literally destroy advanced catlysts, particulate traps, and other emissions control devices which aren't on the libby.
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