Jeep Liberty Diesel
libertycat
Member Posts: 593
in Jeep
I'm not due to the smell and noise of diesel.
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tidester, host
because of the liberty's high weight, it won't get the 50mpg of the american jettas and golf tdis or even the 100+ mpg of the european vw polo or toyota yaris (close to the american echo) but it will be much better than the 15mpg the liberty currently gets
if the liberty could get 30-35mpg, I would be very interested as that takes the gas mileage penatly of buying an suv out
The Cummins engine used in the RAM trucks would literaly break the Liberty under its weight!
Are there other options?
In Englands the Dodge Caravan comes with a turbo-diesel.....
Did you see the VW Touareg (The Porsche CAyenne's "seperated at birth" twin) will have a 2.5 liter turbo-diesel in addition to the big 5 liter V-10 TDI in Europe.
That's the ultimate SUV, but pricing is halfway to the Porsche from the Liberty price.
The Liberty will get a 2.8L common rail turbodiesel produced by Daimler Chrysler AG's VM Motori subsidiary in Italy. It will be a newer version than the 2.5l diesel now used in the Liberty's European model, called the Cherokee. Zetsche says the diesel Liberty will be 30% more fuel-efficient. A manual or automatic transmission will be available and the SUV will be offered in both 2 and 4 wheel drive, but I'm not sure which version of automatic transmission will be used?
There is also a 2.8 - 5 speed automatic available.
Both engines are identical & have intercooled turbo's. They are manufactured in Italy (Cento) by VM. This company is owned by Detroit Diesel, henceforth their appereance in Jeeps. The engines are very advanced with common rail injection & have a high torque (343Nm & 360Nm ). They are robost & require services every 20 000 Km.
I hope this helps...
Using my Macverter... that comes out to about 20 to 27 miles per gallon.
I guess that's better than the 15 to 20mpg they get now!
The guy at the car show said September.
Is the 'non-engine' parts of the Liberty quality?
Just which engine [who makes it and where] will be in the 04 diesel Liberty?
thx
-- Autoweek, Dec. 02, 2002
Not quite two per dealer! Shouldn't be easy to get one. So is there new info on the production run since then?
I have no worries about a diesel vehicle. My VW TDI is fantastic and enjoy it much better than any gas economy car. Performance and economy are much better, plus it's rather substantial in weight/feel.
No doubt an SUV with a diesel will be in demand. Some folks might be scared away by the diesel just because they don't know any better. My Jetta is more quiet on the highway than most gas cars.
Has there been any word on the towing capability?
I do want one.
Still a happy camper.
I imagine the specs/capacities will be close to the Liberty that they sell in Europe with the 2.8L CRD. The only thing that seems surprising to me is the towing capacity. They rate it at 3500kg which is about 7700#. I can't imagine them specing it to tow that much weight here just because of the chassis size. I would guess they'll limit it to 5,000# just like the V6 but it would likely pull the weight much better than the V6. It has 266lb-ft of torque at 1800rpms which is vastly better than the 3.7L. Top speed 108mph (i'm guessing governed) and 0-60 in 12.6 seconds with the automatic. Anyone that knows diesel can tell you that 0-60 time doesn't mean beans unless you just happen to be dragging from 0-60. At most real-world speeds I'd expect the diesel to feel quicker than the V6, particularly in hilly areas.
Ecomomy in Europe is around 27mpg combined cycle which are typically high compared to US city/hwy averages. My guess is it will average 25mpg with a 21mpg city and 30mpg highway.
I am looking forward to the diesel Liberty and this will probably be the factor to move from my 1992 Cherokee Laredo to the Liberty. I love everthing about the Cherokee but the 16 mpg gas mileage. My 4 banger Wrangler does better with closer to 20 mpg (with stock gears, 3" lift, 32" tires, dead wait of offroad armor and winch) but it is too small for the family or cargo carrying. I just wonder if the aftermarket will be ready for the Liberty with propane injection and NOX for the 2.8L TD.
2.8L. Scary. That was the worst gasoline engine used in a Jeep.
At this stage not knowing much about the diesel Liberty, I intend to buy one in the second year of production. So far it sounds like it will fit the bill for me. Towing, mileage, carrying the dogs, I think it is what I need.
Will keep my Wrangler, but sure wish I got the 20mpg that KYJEEPSTER gets. I get 15mpg on a really good day. I got 11mpg on a 240 mile trip driving into the wind.
Diesel technology isn't exactly rocket science... the technicians will have manuals to refer to.
The cost of having a diesel or a hybrid might not always offset the added cost, at least not right away, but some people want to start a revolution and maybe do the right thing for the environment.
If nobody gives it a chance, then the auto manufacturers will use it as an excuse to drop it and then we will be perpetually stuck with old technology gas guzzlers.
Kudos to companies like Toyota for introducing the Prius at a loss just to get the idea rolling. Once these vehicles become mainstream, the production costs will lower and they will become profitable.
Unfortunately most companies don't see it that way and will end up jumping on the bandwagon later on when they finally realize they should get with it.
What DC is setting in place with this new diesel is a dealer body that can repair it, parts stockpiles in thier distribution centers, repair manuals in US english, contracts with suppliers for more engine blocks and other production parts, an allocation system to put them where they will be the most wanted, emissions systems that will allow the Liberty to meet the tough NE and CA emissions standards and so much more.
Distributing something new take more time than a year or so, that is why they have postponed unitil the 2005 model year.
I am all set to order a 2004 and asked my dealer
he is as confused as everyone else. There also apparently other issue in the 04 configurator pertaining to the Limited. Anyone else seeing any issues?
Have you any ideas on the Borla exhausted mentioned in other postings about improving the
mileage?
The published schedule for avaliability of the required VeryLowSulpherDiesel fuel in the USA is 2005. All of the 3rd generation super-high-injection-pressure diesels will quickly clog up if the dirty USA diesel fuel is run thru them.
Europe has been enjoying at least 2 generations ahead of USA with wonderful diesel engines due to the USA lagging behind in clean fuel. Anyone that owns a VW TDI can attest that the dirty fuel tends to 'clog up' the intake, exhaust, turbocharger...etc.
I still like my 53MPG with enough torque to pass on the highway with ease.
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6078
NOTE:
"The test was conducted using low-sulfur European diesel fuel"
ALSO;
"Chrysler will build as many units of the diesel Liberty as the market demands. "
We have to remember that these diesel KJ Cherokees are currently being built in Toledo for export. So we are not waiting on DC to work out kinks in the vehicle or production. I think we are waiting for the oil companies to catch up with the technology.
Jeep sells in such quantities, that this HAS to be a flawless rollout. I have no worries about the vehicle being sound, but if the dealerships can't provide decent service and advice it will seem as if the vehicles are the problem.
I'm not aware of anything on these vehicles that low-sulphur fuel will effect. Low-sulphur is needed for advanced emissions controls, but I haven't heard if these motors will be built with anything like that initially or not.
Allow me to respectfully disagree with the statements by sebring95 which indicate that VW dealerships or independent repair shops are not prepared to service the TDI diesel-engined vehicles.
VW started selling diesels in 1977 in the USA. Wtth the exception of a few years in the mid-1990's, when VW sales were at their nadir, VW has pretty much continuously sold diesel vehicles in the USA over the time from 1977 until now. Tee TDI Passat was sold from 1996-1997, and the very popular Jetta and Golf TDI cars were made available in 1999 and continue today. A very significant number of TDI cars are sold by VWoA each year, and dealership techs see these cars in VW service bays daily and have a great deal of experience with them. The TDI engine has a very good reputation from any VW tech I've ever talked to ( having owned 15 VWs in life so far ). Many VW techs, at least at dealerships of any size, have plenty of experience working on diesel cars, and there are lots of independent shops out there that specialize in VW repair that have savvy VW-diesel techs.
With regards to owners and their diesel VWs, well, true, the diesel VW-owners are more tech-savvy in my experience than the gasser-VW-owners, but you see a clean break relating to the age of the cars. The older
70's, 80's, early 90's diesel VWs are FAR less complex to work on than the TDI-engined cars. You do see a fair number of folks wrenching on their older diesel dubs. However, aside from an oil change or tire rotation, most maintenance or repairs on TDI cars are way out of the shade-tree mechanics realm, and often diagnosis of faults requires expensive and or specialized shop equipment. Hardly any TDI owners working on their own cars, at least if the car was built post-1995.
You'll find that if you ask a VW TDI owner, you'll likely get a very positive response regarding their TDI. If the Jeep diesel engined vehicles ( Liberty ) engender the same goodwill from owners as the VW TDI cars, it will be a very good thing for DC.
Matt Brickell
Lee's Summit, MO
VW Sales Guild 2002 ( top 1% of VW sales consultants in North America ) and 15x VW owner
current:
03 Jetta TDI wagon 5 speed
83 Pickup ( VW )
87 Quantum Syncro ( AWD )
03 MINI Cooper 5 speed
I've personally corrected many mistakes made by dealerships with my $300 software and a few tools. I've fixed cars (and I'm NOT a mechanic) for people on the verge of trading their nearly new TDI's on a Toyota because of a simple problem that the dealers only action was to try and replace every part on the car. I've witnessed several cars with dealership timing belt changes that were not timed correctly. There is one dealer within 100 miles I would use if I absolutely had to. They're actually the smallest dealer and in a rural area, but have a guy that's very good with diesels.
Jeep needs people with lots of training for this to work properly. Most aren't going to have any experience in things like turbos, various electronics, and the overall different characteristics of diesels. Dodge, GM, and Ford would have a better chance with their US dealerships because most have diesel mechanics on board for their heavy trucks.
Jeep will have little to no problem with the diesel they are intorducing in 05. I hope they add the diesel to other vehicles too.
Had you said in your original post, that "in your experience" your local VW dealers were not positioned to service TDI cars, that's one thing. My issue is with your blanket statement that VW in general does not have a network of competent repair people and gets away with it. May I ask what facts, statistics or extensive personal experience at the VW dealership service level substantiate such a broad statement? (Really, neither you nor I, when you think about it, have even remotely enough personal experience to warrant such a comprehensive statement). I've found that aside from small VW dealers ( and even some of those ), most VW service departments have a couple of techs with plenty of TDI experience. I see fewer disgruntled clients of mine who own TDI cars than any other sort of VW, by far. I've worked at more than one dealership and found this to be the case. I've lived all over the USA and owned diesel VWs and found the same level of service available to me as when owning a gasoline-powered VW. I'm puzzled to hear that your area seems to be unusual. In our administrative area, for instance, of about 20 dealerships, the average completely satisfied service survey percentage is approximately 90% across the model range. I have not seen in my personal experience where diesel service clients are any more or less satisfied with repairs than any other group. If anything, the diesel VW owners are more critical than the norm, but beside the point.
Anyway, I'll agree to disagree here. I maintain that the level of experience and competence with TDI cars at VW dealerships is little if any different than with the gassers, aside from a small town dealer ( not many of those with VW anymore). The volume of TDI cars through the service departments is high enough to rate working on a TDI at a VW dealership as routine. No magic to working on a TDI for an experienced VW tech than a 1.8T really, I don't think. I'm just basing my opinion on my own experience with my own cars ( quite a few, some old, some new), and that of a couple of hundred clients, not the world. Anyway, back to relating to the diesel Liberty...
In my area, the majority of Jeep dealers are also Dodge/Chrysler dealers. Given the popularity or the diesel Ram trucks, I'd assume any given Dodge dealer would have a decent amount of experience working on diesel vehicles. Agreed, though, that like any type of car these days with very sophisticated systems and electronics, a large amount of training and significant investment in diagnotic tools and repair equipment will be necessary to adequately service the Liberty diesel properly. I've spent time in a VW dealership service department, and seen first hand the level of training and support given to VW techs on the TDI cars. Also remarkable is the commitment of most of the techs to doing a good job on the diesels ( and others ). Easy for the general public to bash dealership service, but I'll bet the average person would be quite surprised at the average level of competence and commitment to their TDI product in a metro VW dealership service department.
If Jeep techs get anywhere near the amount of support and training on the diesel Liberty as I see our VW guys get on TDI Jettas, I think aside from perhaps some initial teething issues as experience is gained ( like anything else ), the Jeep Liberty diesel folks will be in good hands. I may buy one myself!
Cheers!
Matt
BTW-- Have you seen that Honda has tasked their Senior Chief Engineer Kenichi Nagahiro into building a Diesel engine. This guy concieves world-class engines. Times they are a changin...
http://www.waitnews.com/honda_diesel_engine.htm
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=136769
VW is not the same same as when I owned several of the old VW bugs in the 60's. They now try to rip the customers off and I'm to old and to smart for that kind of service.
Oh, I've had other automobiles and trucks too. Dodge and Ford both have good dealers who try hard to sevvice their customers. As for the Jeep liberty I've only test driven one but I have driven the old Willis Jeeps a bunch. Adding a diesel to the Liberty will be the perfect match.
Even though Dodge, Jeep doesn't have as many dealers as GMC & Ford they do have more than many others and I want to be able to find a dealer when I have issues while traveling.
Why are you posting here instead of JeepUnlimited where that kind of poster bashing is expected.
The TDI's have a tendancey to gum up the intake, partly due to crappy fuel. This isn't the reason VW dealers have trouble servcing TDI's, it's because I feel their training leaves a lot to be desired. You can avoid the intake gumming up by running a quality fuel which is available in the states, my TDI being an example. ULSD isn't required to avoid this. ULSD will be required for more advanced emissions controls. The same crappy diesel that gums up the intakes, will literally destroy advanced catlysts, particulate traps, and other emissions control devices which aren't on the libby.