Jeep Liberty Diesel

goodcrd · March 2007

First problem I would address is the engine shuddering. Did you bleed the air from the fuel filter? I can't stress it enough that there is "No" air in the fuel system. It will cause most of the problems that you have listed in reference to engine performance. If you find consistant air in the fuel at the fuel filter this must be repaired before any other engine/trans issue can be addressed. I would also later check for a faulty TPS or vehicle speed sensor/circuit if no air is present in the fuel system. TPS & VSS and circuits wouldn't always throw a code. This vehicle would give a seperate indication light on the dash if the brake and accelerator were applied at the same time and wouldn't reset the indicator until you restarted the vehicle. With all the work done with reguard to your fuel gauge I would start there with respect to a fuel problem (Air in Fuel). This fuel gauge problem should not be happening repeatedly. After the second try I would have been calling the mechanic on his work. He is not spending the time to properly diagnose the fault. Has this vehicle ever been in an accident? If so was the problem with the fuel gauge post accident in nature? Could just be a faulty electrical connection with the fuel gauge. (8 hours to find and 5 minutes to fix!) Again is the dealer willing to spend the time to properly diagnose.
As for the Cruise Control I would wait until the first issue is resolved. It may be the cause of the cruise control problems. One note here for general knowledge. On some ABS systems if a condition such as Vehicle speed doesn't match the wheel speeds the Cruise control will drop out. This is a safety issue and is also why you shouldn't use cruise control in rain or bad road conditions. I don't order any vehicles with cruise because of some bad experiences with accidents while using cruise control on company vehicles.

I hope this helps. Let me know what you find with air in your fuel. This is where you must start. It either has the problem or not. No well maybes.

caribou1 · March 2007

Goodcrd, air bubbles trapped in the fuel line become invisible at high pressures. If there is not enough pressure available in the common rail, the pressure sensor will detect this and the ECU should give out one of these codes:
# P0190 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit
# P0191 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Performance
# P0194 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Intermittent

On top of that, the engine should sometimes stall while idling and be difficult to start just after stalling.

Concerning the fuel tank level sender, if there was an intermittent problem of short duration such as an electrical connection problem, I guess this code should appear:
# P0656 Fuel Level Output Circuit Malfunction

We have to keep in mind the ECU repeats a routine and by comparing recent changes (also called events) it can trigger a set of alarms. A simple test would be to disconnect the pressure sensor while spinning the engine at high revs and connecting the sensor while the inertia of the engine keeps it turning. Would the engine stop? I don't know, but if it does stop, this would mean it's not the pressure sensor that's causing the shudder. Do you understand what I mean?

hamchamp · March 2007

53 days and still counting.
My 2005 Jeep CRD is still in disrepair. I did get to talk to 'those in charge' and picked out a replacement. We are waiting for final approval.-they said 3-5 days. Has anyone out there actually received a replacement vehicle? If so, how long did it actually take, from beginning to end of the talking. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :sick: :sick: Hamchamp in NC

goodcrd · March 2007

Wrong!!!!!!!! Your fuel pressure will stay the same. You just made the same mistake most techs make. The pressurized air trapped in the fuel won't contribute to the combustion, you won't have any. There is your shudder!!!!!!

nescosmo · March 2007

Goodcrd....I think that wally w. fuel is the problem.
It should replaced the fuel filter and go to another station. Maybe that is the problem. Also they should replaced the electrical hornes or check the plugs that goes to each modules to see if they are properly inserted.

Nescosmo.

caribou1 · March 2007

Goodcrd, air is a mixture of gasses. Gasses are compressible until they liquify (assuming temperature remains stable). The pressure of the common rail is 1600 times that of atmosphere.

I've made many tests where air was trapped in compressed water and noticed that air 'disappears' well below 100 atmospheres.
I was involved in building the high pressure rinsing system described here:
http://epaper.kek.jp/p95/ARTICLES/RPB/RPB09.PDF

farout · March 2007

hamchamp: Today we told the independent company that handles DCX buy back, or replacements, what we wanted and who had it. We could choose any DCX product except the high dollar MB. We chose a Compass 4x4. The dealer we bought the CRD from has the work to get the Compass to him, and do all the paper work. DCX transferred our Chrysler Service Contract to the Compass, and we paid a per mile charge for the use of the CRD. As things stand DCX is being fair with us. DCX Customer Care Line was the ones who saw how many times we had been in the shop and referred this situation on on Feb.14, and a fellow from DCX headquarters called and talked with us on March 13. the District Rep called to give us some choices, on March 15 all the papers were sent to DCX for approval, and today we got the find the vehicle you want. We should be all done next week sometime. So it takes about 6 weeks. You must have solid proof of the problems you have had. Good luck!

farout · March 2007

caribou1: Read the post (#8899) I sent to Hamchamp. The dealer says he has tried all the suggestions given DCX reaches a point that as I see it, (no one said so) that warranty work is no longer worth the money they are spending. What is your take on it? There was no dealer within a reasonable distance that wanted to fool with it, so we were not really wanting to fool with it ourselves either. So that's the news as of this point.

Farout

twocycle2 · March 2007

While I don't have the technical expertise that Caribou1 and Goodcrd have, I am convinced the shudder is a result of air in the fuel system. The engine acts EXACTLY like it did when I first replaced the fuel filter....once I got the engine to stay running, it ran with a noticable miss (shudder) until the air had purged itself out of the lines. The same effect happens after hard acceleration right when I let off the gas, as if air had been sucked into the system. As to where that air is coming from, I have no idea.

As I mentioned last week, I finally took mine in for the 2 computer reprograms and the ball joints....the only differece I notice is that the transmission (which had been working fine) now seems more "confused", bumping in and out of gears more than it used to....considering how delicate this transmission seems to be, I can't think that this is a good thing, but I guess time will tell. It's kind of sad....as much as I like driving it, I feel more comfortable taking my wife's Sonata on long trips for fear that something will happen to the CRD and NOBODY will have any clue how to fix it wherever it breaks down.

Twocycle2

farout · March 2007

Twocycle2: Where do you think the air is coming from? I doubt this is air, but rather related to programs that are not fully had all the bugs worked out.

Farout

goodcrd · March 2007

This is not the same. First you are taking a low pressure diesel fuel with air bubbles trapped in the fuel. Then this mixture is being pressurized to 1600 bar. When the mixture is injected into the cylinder what do you think happens? High pressure liquid through an orifice to a low pressure environment. Think about it. The air displaces fuel and causes a dead cylinder. Shudder. Your right about your high pressure rinsing system. But your not using the water as fuel.

nescosmo · March 2007

At wally they have now the 15w-40 mobil oil for about $22.00 per 4 quarts and the Rotella at about $16.oo. Now which oil is better (I use Rotella), the mobil or Rotella.

Nescosmo.

caribou1 · March 2007

Farout, the most important thing is that you find peace of mind and enjoyment with your vehicle. If I would have been in your shoes, I would have probably reacted with less compassion to say things in a soft way. We need to reduce our energy consumption and the diesels made 10 years ago would have pleased you more. The only recommendation I would give you for driving up and down the icy road to your house is to select a very soft winter tire such as the Cooper or Michelin. That's what people prefer here in the mountains with light SUVs.

caribou1 · March 2007

If you have air bubbles, you have the smell of fuel either outside on a warm day, in your garage every morning, and you can see stains along the tubes/fittings or on the floor.
When you have a 'stream of air bubbles' arriving to the high pressure pump, you create a cavitating condition.
When you inject too much air into the combustion chamber, assuming no alarms were triggered, your Lambda sensor will send you the NOx warning.
I got rid of my shudder problem the day I removed my EGR valve.

goodcrd · March 2007

Your Lambda sensor doesn't react as fast as you think. Try this for yourself. Take your fuel filter fuel supply hose off and allow it to drain some fuel out and let some air in to the fuel line. Re secure the fuel line. Run your engine until it stops missing. Now you should have some air trapped in the fuel filter housing. Now drive the vehicle moderately until you want to merge onto expressway traffic. Now accelerate up to say 60 mph form 40 mph very quickly. See what you get. Then go bleed your fuel filter of the trapped air. Then try the same test. Read posts on this site and LOST about the air in fuel shudder.

ucanfarm · March 2007

My jeep is in the shop for body work due to tornado damage. When I get it back one of the first things I am doing is installing clear hoses on both sides of my fuel filter like the ones used in an aquarium but heavy and bigger. I think a shut down sequence of the engine to Depressurize it is the cause of the air, but won't know for a week.

farout · March 2007

nescomo: Hey dude, you are risking some serious issues using 15-40w. I used the Rotella 5-40w and I could not notice any difference, except I felt it stayed clean way too long. Mobile 1 started picking up dirt right away. As a personal note I had to present proof of every oil change and the repair that was done. I even proved that the book said 5-40w syn. oil was ok. That too was brought under some talk. The very best knowledgeable Tech. is at Yark Jeep in Toledo, Ohio, His name is dan, call him and ask what about using 15-40w does and won't do. It will be worth your time.

farout

farout · March 2007

caribou1: Believe me when I say it is just as likely that the Service dep. at the dealership is jumping for joy that they don't have to work on it any more. The Service writer, whom I don't give a hoot about, told me today "your Kill en me" I asked for a receipt on a bill I paid over a year ago and they did not give me one. The Service Writer tested my patients all most to the point that he would have wished he has stayed home today. I can assure you that as soon as all things are worked out, this will be on my last place to go for service.
I have used Cooper tires for several years,there are ok, but ware out faster than others I have used. I have 25,000 on the Wrangler Silent Armor tires, they have been quiet, and smooth, and ware is good. BUT< they are a high dollare tire and I am not sure if the extra money you pay for them really pans out. The Compass has the GoodYear all terrian tires on it, but I sorta expect these to be a fair to middlen tire, anyone know how they are?

farout

mike6206 · March 2007

I have been able to find this and if you can, I recommend Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 Full Synthetic. I got the results of the oil sample I sent in and everything on it tested out normal. I change it every 8000 miles since it has the small filter and this area I live at is hilly. I found the oil at a Travelcenters of America at Greencastle, PA.

caribou1 · March 2007

Sorry to say this but my MY 2003 has no emissions control. I have no Lambda sensor, nothing apart from the engine and tranny. This is why I can simply try out disconnecting an element and immediately evaluate the effects. When I let air in the system after a fuel filter change without even bleeding the line, it coughs once and immediately recovers it's full operating conditions. I've been driving and maintaining my own diesels since 1978, and there has been a tremendous change. I prefer the models that rely on their flywheel for smooth running, like marine engines. They're not very good for overtaking traffic though

hamchamp · March 2007

farout. Well I think we are on our way. We have spoken to the District Manager, who wanted a VIN number or a VON number. We were at the dealership at this time. We picked out a Dakota, Quad, however this dealership doesn't have this one, but found one 45 miles away. I assume that is the VIN number that was given. Then the Impartial Service Group called and asked us to fax our title and a copy of the contract. Also she was aware of the $$$ that we will have to pay the dealer for the Dakota. This $$$ is very agreeable to us and very fair, which includes tax, and tags, etc. When I called the dealership to get the VIN number, he stated that the truck isn't going to be brought down to their dealership until they get the $$$ from the Impartial Service Group. So my concern is that it could be sold. ISG said this could take 10-30 business days. We had a Tow pkgs. on the Jeep, and want one on the Dakota. We don't want it dealership installed, because at the factory they beef up the tow pkg. Anyway that is where we are now. I had written to the State Attorney office of NC, they have a form to fill out, and they are watching and waiting to see how things progress. I think this was a very good thing to do, and I had read this on this forums. It seemed to get everyones attention. Good luck! to you :confuse: also. HamChamp.

farout · March 2007

hamchamp: How many miles did you have on your CRD? What year was it? How much per mile did you wind up paying?
We have faxed all the things ISG wanted, and ISG sent all the paper work to the dealer. The dealer felt we could finish it up next week, the Jeep Compass is a 150 miles away and the dealers have worked with each other several times before. We got have our own financing, but IGS or DCX is the one paying off the loan on the CRD. I sure hope it does not take much longer with this. How are you doing without a vehicle for 10 to 30 days? In our case ISG pays off City Financial Auto, and that's who is financing the Compass as well. ISG has transferred our Chrysler Service Contract to the Compass. The warranty has 70,000 miles left so that what DCX has agreed to extend our Max Care $0 ded. 70,000 or 5 year to the Compass. We can have the Tax and plates as well. I was really amazed at how DCX resolved the problems. We are wondering if the dealer which we bought our CRD from, and is handling all this paper work, if he will charge us his $75. DOC fee? It might be the case as we are not using Chrysler Financial.
We were given the option to order exactally what we wanted but even with being put next in line at the factory it would take 8 to 10 week, and that just was not for us. The Compass has had about $300. increase from when they first started making them.

Farout

hamchamp · March 2007

Farout, We have 22K on the 2005 Jeep. We purchased in 7/11/05. We have a clear title, so no payoff is involved. We don't have an extra warranty so we have no extra car to replace the Jeep. We are running around with my wifes Montana, which has 150,000 miles on it. Our grandkids live 3 hours from our house, which means that spring break we will be making the trip to bring the two little boys back with us. We got the Jeep, like everyone else, so we would have a reliable car. They never said anything about the mileage. just what we would owe on the Dakota that we picked out. IF they don't save us the Dakota, with the Tow Pkg. I guess we can spend the next 1/2 of the year waiting for a Dakota that we would order. We certainly don't want to do that. We are both senior citizens and would really like to enjoy the summer. 56 days and counting. That is this time. We had 4 other times in the shop since October 06. Yes, we have every piece of paper for each calimity. Stay in touch. HamChamp

farout · March 2007

hamchamp: We have a good number of things in common. We too are retired, and senior citizens. We bought the CRD because our 2005 Liberty Limited was lucky to get 14 to 17mpg. The limited had all the bells and whistles, and the heated seats were nice in the winter. But at the time when we traded our 05 Limited in on the CRD, diesel fuel was .25 cents than gasoline. WE did the math and it should have saved some money. But, we know that after Sep. 05 diesel fuel has remained a good bit higher than gasoline. So there was no real significant difference to save anything, but it cost us more in the scheme of things. Then add 25 trips for repair, and they still could not fix the main problems.... defective vehicle.
We had a 02 Dakota quad Cab, and drove it for almost 94,000 miles. Only problem was Ball Joints, 4 times they were replaced under warranty. The Dakota got between 16 to 28 mpg, it was a 4x4 as well with the 4.7 V-8, it was an outstanding engine, and it had adequate power, I was glad we did not get the 3.7 V-6 that was offered as it would have been rather underpowered.

Farout

bullhead · March 2007

Gosh !

I hope you mean synthetic oils. Be clear. There was good agreement in this forum that a synthetic oil brings resistence to problems related to coking of oil on hot turbo-charger bearings.

h2odog · March 2007

My CRD has 48K miles, and has been in the shop 10 times in last 2 years for engine and driveline issues. Since last Friday, it's been in the shop for a leaking transfer case; last December, it was an engine light plus new torque converter plus ball joints (with no alignment & toe-in check?; be sure to check yours after they're done).

I called Customer Care at 800-992-1997; they investigated, including a call to my dealer. After about 30 minutes, they concluded that there is no Buy Back after expiration of 3 yr/36K mile warrantee (7/70 doesn't count), and referred me to my manual's complaint procedures and my state attorney general.

Anyone thinking of Buy Back, be aware of 3/36! That's apparently the DCX line in the sand...

H2ODog

farout · March 2007

h2odog:"IF" you can prove that the serious issues began before the 36/36,000 point, you can file a lemon law in some states. I suggest you read back over this forum, might just help.

farout

winter2 · March 2007

I was running an errand this evening and shortly after I left home, my CRD lost power, was bucking like mad and the trans shifted badly. No lights appeared on the dashboard. I limped the CRD home.

I opened the hood and pulled off the engine cover and what did I find? The hose had popped off of the tube where it attached to the intake manifold. I promptly checked the other clamps and they were in good order. I cleaned the hose of oil, the clamp of oil and it took several attempts to make sure the hose stayed put. I have put a screw driver in the CRD just in case this happens again. I will call the dealer in the A.M. and order up new parts. If they say no, then I will try an old tried and true friend, Indian Head Gasket Shellac. That should do the trick. I just need to be careful that none of that stuff gets onto the exposed butterfly valve.

To those of you with bucking issues, power loss, or misbehaving trans, check out those hose connections and make sure they are snug.

siberia · March 2007

This is kinda weird. Way back when you first talked about repositioning clamps and tightening hoses I followed your lead. A few days ago I checked the CAC hoses and 2 of the clamps were no longer tight and the other 2 still were tight. I tightened the 2 loose clamps and remember thinking that much looser and one of them might have popped off. Remarkably similar dissolution of assembly status, no?

tidester · March 2007

I limped the CRD home.

You're braver than I am! I would have attempted to fix the problem on the spot or have the CRD towed. Things can go from bad to extreme in very short order.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

tired_old_dave · March 2007

If I am butting in, please say so and even though still look at this site while at edmunds, I will post no more. Did you get new design hoses for both sides? I believe caribou1 warned about overtightening the clamps and deformation of the plastic stub tubes (guilty here)of the intercooler as well as hose integrity issues by overtightening. Cleaned the hoses and butterfly with simple green twice but never had one pop off.

tidester · March 2007

I will post no more.

You're always welcome!

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

kathe · March 2007

Have been reading about the fuel line and shuddering messages as my Liberty CRD has been having all that and more. I had the transmission problem before the recall and now the shuddering, air noise at windows, stalling, brakes, and fuel problems for the two years I have owned it. It is in the shop for the fuel again; this is the third time in 3 months. I love my CRD, really, but am seriously thinking of trading. Since the problems have been different I can't get it replaced, I don't think. When I read all the messages, I called the mechanic at the dealership and asked if he had heard of the fixes I read about and of course he said they would check that. Thanks for listening.

hamchamp · March 2007

Keep all your paperwork. It is better to have every thing in order if you ever need it. Look up your states Lemon Laws then you will be informed. Just a suggestion. PS we have a '05 Jeep in a heap at the dealership. :sick: 60 days today.

DCX is involved, however, it appears that there is always another issue, and this isn't resolved yet.*60 days and 60 nights* Hamchamps'wife.

winter2 · March 2007

Nice to hear from you Dave.

I stopped at the dealer yesterday on the way home from work as the same hose had popped off again from the flange on the intake manifold. I spoke with the diesel tech and he stated that the hoses are becoming problematic as they age. They become porous and spongy with time and exposure to heat and the oil vapors and thus must be replaced from time to time. I made an appointment to have them replaced (both) this coming Thursday. If anyone is curious, they are around $100 each! When I made the appointment, the service writer told me that they are seeing more turbo failures too. They are not sure if it is a design issue or a bad materials issue. I will be keeping the old hoses and will try to have some custom made from braided stainless steel to take care of the hose issue once and for all.

Today I cleaned the business end of the hose that keeps popping off along with the metal flange on the intake manifold. I applied some "Aviation Form-a-Gasket cement" on both the inside of the hose and around the flange, let them setup for three minutes, and then reassembled. the whole thing. Testing comes later today or tomorrow.

farout · March 2007

Suggest that "IF" you have less than 36000 miles you just might be able to get a buy back from DCX. Ask the 1800 992 1997 customer care line to help you if they can. Again you must have positive proof of what you state. We had 25 trips to the dealer in 17 months and 29,000. We had door leaking so much air that it made our 1996 Dodge Neon look real quiet. The engine bucked, shuddered, or jerked, what ever you call it anyway. The speed control kicked out when we went into a dip in the road, and the fuel gauge was so inaccurate. They replaced the sending unit in the tank 4 times and each time was no better than the one before. The front passenger seat belt locked up twice and was replaced each time. After the F-37 recall we lost power really noticeable.
DCX bought ours back, and we are to pick up our Jeep Compass 4x4 on april 2, this Monday. I will say they have been really very nice in resolving our problem with the CRD. I am sure we are in the minority with such problems. We are retired and this was a real nightmare, but DCX is making things right.

Good luck.

farout

crdnot · March 2007

Dear CRD Owners,
My purpose of posting this correspondence to to share my experiences thus far with my 05 CRD and the response I received (or not received) from DC. Maybe it will help and maybe it won;t but I know I will feel better. I welcome your comments

CRDNOT

January 2, 2007

DaimlerChrysler Corporation

Re: Customer Satisfaction Notification F37

Dear DaimlerChrysler:

It is obvious by the content of your recall notice F37 that the torque converter situation is not the problem but is a symptom of the real problem. Your desire to reprogram the engine and transmission control modules to reduce the torque is an obvious admission of your failure to properly engineer a match between the 2.8L turbo diesel and your transmission. Your recall notice appears to have been written by your Marketing and Accounting departments as opposed to Engineering as you have not identified the problem with the transmission.

My decision to purchase the CRD was driven by the need for the published 5000lb towing capacity and the power/fuel economy and longevity of a diesel engine. Reducing the power of the engine I purchased as a solution to your mismatching the driveline is totally unacceptable. In effect, through tampering with the computer settings you will actually change the product I purchased after the fact. I will not give you permission to change my product.

If DaimlerChrysler is truly interested in customer satisfaction you will take the following steps relative to repairs on my vehicle.

1. You do not have my permission to change the engine I purchased through tampering with the engine management system.
2. The torque converter and transmission is to be replaced in its entirety as a unit shipped from DaimlerChrysler. Your recall notice suggests that the transmission may be damaged which would require an additional hour of service repair time. It is clear that this will be left entirely to the discretion of a service technician who has been allocated 1 hour to complete repairs on transmission damage. If I now have proof that my confidence in DaimlerChrysler to correctly engineer this vehicle was misplaced, I certainly will not trust bench work for a quick fix on my transmission. You have offered and I have purchased a vehicle with a driveline capable of lasting 300-400,000 miles. Yet your transmission now must be replaced at 30,000 miles.
3. The only legitimate position for DaimlerChrysler at this point will be to replace the transmission and to warrant their performance for the life of the engine. This is a reasonable expectation for anyone purchasing a vehicle. Anything less is shoddy engineering.
4. If for some reason you fail to see the benefit to both DaimlerChrysler and their customers by handling this matter in the above fashion I would expect you to take back my vehicle and refund my purchase price.

I also want to mention that I called your Michigan based customer service number last week on two occasions to discuss this recall and to discuss the use of Bio Diesel fuel in my CRD. Regarding the Bio Diesel, I was told I couldnt use any Bio Diesel fuel in my vehicle. When I asked the person to confirm their data they reconfirmed that Bio Diesel was not approved for my CRD. I found this quite interesting since DaimlerChrysler touted in several media markets the CRD introduction with a tank of B5. Maybe your customer service staff should research your announcements on the web?

With regard to my conversation about the recall I asked specifically for answers on what caused this recall action, what exactly was the anticipated damage to my transmission, what would the end result of the repairs do to the torque, and towing capacity vs. what was sold to me. I was told my inquiry was to be directed by me to the local service manager, as my questions were too technical. I asked for a supervisor or a technician as I felt my questions were not too technical for my understanding! I was again referred to my local dealer service manager. I also specifically asked for a new transmission as well as a new torque converter. I was told to take this up with my local dealer service manager. I called my local dealer to inquire on the above and I was told I would have to contact DaimlerChrysler. Who should I call KIA?

I expect an immediate reply to my communication. I will not give my local dealer permission to proceed with any repairs until I have had your positive response to this.

I am extremely disappointed in the way DaimlerChrysler has handled this recall thus far. I suggest you check what is being said on the blogs about the CRD and this recall. . . what a shame.

Your failure to properly engineer the driveline has already diminished the value of my purchase. Your quality is best measured by the long-term value of your products. This is your opportunity to make a statement to those owners who have trusted you and to the automotive industry that DaimlerChrysler is credible and deserving of the business.

March 16, 2007

DaimlerChrysler Corporation

Customer Satisfaction Notice F37

This letter represents the second written attempt and the sixth correspondence regarding my request for satisfaction regarding the recall on my 2005 JEEP Liberty CRD. After making two phone calls I received a call back from your customer service (technical support) dept to discuss my previous written correspondence.

At the core of my problem is the reluctance of DaimlerChrysler to fully disclose the nature of the engineering problems relative to the driveline for the diesel as well as, engineering specifics relative to the true effect of the changes made, not only to the transmission but of greater concern to the engine management system.

Your recall notice F37 indicates a potential problem for the torque converter/transmission, but states that DaimlerChrysler technicians will make a change in the engine management system resulting in a loss of power to provide a longer service life to the transmission. By all reason of logic it is evident that by suggesting this fix you are obviously indicating that the transmission was not properly matched to the performance characteristics of the CRD engine. This vehicle was purchased in confidence based on four primary factors:
1. The belief that DaimlerChrysler had enough experience to properly engineer a diesel driveline.
2. The fuel economy of a diesel engine relevant to gasoline.
3. Longevity of diesel drivelines.
4. Your stated 295 ft lbs of torque, which would translate into a towing capacity of 5,000 lbs.

On February 6, 2007 I spoke with you directly, the following is a transcript of that conversation.

Q. Why tamper with the engine management system if the transmission may have problems.
A. As the recall states to extend the service life of the transmission.

Q. So if nothing is done the transmission could fail prematurely.
A. The recall is for the torque

crdnot · March 2007

Continued...
On February 6, 2007 I spoke with you directly, the following is a transcript of that conversation.

Q. Why tamper with the engine management system if the transmission may have problems.
A. As the recall states to extend the service life of the transmission.

Q. So if nothing is done the transmission could fail prematurely.
A. The recall is for the torque converter; the transmission will be inspected for damage upon removal.

Q. What is the specific power and torque loss based on the engine remapping?
A. Engine performance would not change.

Q. How can you say engine performance will not change when you have reduced the load on the transmission by altering the engine mapping? The engineers must have some basis for the change of the settings and the effect of those changes. Again, what are the revised horsepower and torque measurements after the changes?
A. Engineers state you will not notice any difference in torque or performance with the changes.

Q. You have not answered my questions. Am I to assume that the engineering department has not tested and measured the effects of the change that they are requiring all dealers to do on these vehicles? That would be as ludicrous as a new product launch with a turbo diesel engine vehicle and not properly testing the balance of the driveline that is mated to that engine?
A. The engineers have indicated a 20 ft lb of torque drop at wide-open throttle.

Q. Why did you tell me earlier that engine performance would not change? Based on all that has been said I am formally requesting that you have engineering provide to me graphs of the horsepower and torque curves across the entire RPM range, both before and after the required changes.
A. We cannot provide that as it is information proprietary to DaimlerChrysler.

Response:
Your marketing department did not think it was proprietary when they sold me the benefit of 295 ft lbs of torque and 5,000 lbs of towing capacity.

Q. So what will the new towing capacity be?
A. I do not have that information.

Q. Would you indicate in your file reference that I requested documentation of the results from engineering regarding the horsepower, torque, and revised towing capacity of the CRD JEEP Liberty?
A. Yes I will.

Response:
I do not think we have anything further to discuss at this point. Please forward the requested information  thank you.

A. You are welcome.

Based on the preceding exchange and the entire correspondence record it is obvious that DaimlerChrysler is not interested in fully disclosing the nature of this problem or the result of their fix. They are interested in diminishing the performance of the vehicle I purchased in good faith, to place a low cost fix on a significant problem with the mismatch of the engine with the balance of the driveline.

Since this discussion on February 6, 2007 the entire differential assembly had to be replaced in an emergency repair as it failed within the course of 150 miles.

In my previous correspondence I suggested a fair and reasonable solution, which included an extended warranty on the driveline.

Given the lack of response and cooperation from DaimlerChrysler, the five plus weeks I have waited to receive your follow up information, correspondence or any acknowledgement in writing as requested of my concerns; I request the immediate repurchase of my vehicle for the full price I paid.

I expect your response within a reasonable timeframe and I expect it in written form as well as verbal acknowledgement of receipt of this letter.

I am still waiting their response.

crdnot · March 2007

CONTINUED...

Q. So if nothing is done the transmission could fail prematurely.
A. The recall is for the torque converter; the transmission will be inspected for damage upon removal.

Q. What is the specific power and torque loss based on the engine remapping?
A. Engine performance would not change.

Q. How can you say engine performance will not change when you have reduced the load on the transmission by altering the engine mapping? The engineers must have some basis for the change of the settings and the effect of those changes. Again, what are the revised horsepower and torque measurements after the changes?
A. Engineers state you will not notice any difference in torque or performance with the changes.

Q. You have not answered my questions. Am I to assume that the engineering department has not tested and measured the effects of the change that they are requiring all dealers to do on these vehicles? That would be as ludicrous as a new product launch with a turbo diesel engine vehicle and not properly testing the balance of the driveline that is mated to that engine?
A. The engineers have indicated a 20 ft lb of torque drop at wide-open throttle.

Q. Why did you tell me earlier that engine performance would not change? Based on all that has been said I am formally requesting that you have engineering provide to me graphs of the horsepower and torque curves across the entire RPM range, both before and after the required changes.
A. We cannot provide that as it is information proprietary to DaimlerChrysler.

Response:
Your marketing department did not think it was proprietary when they sold me the benefit of 295 ft lbs of torque and 5,000 lbs of towing capacity.

Q. So what will the new towing capacity be?
A. I do not have that information.

Q. Would you indicate in your file reference that I requested documentation of the results from engineering regarding the horsepower, torque, and revised towing capacity of the CRD JEEP Liberty?
A. Yes I will.

Response:
I do not think we have anything further to discuss at this point. Please forward the requested information  thank you.

A. You are welcome.

Based on the preceding exchange and the entire correspondence record it is obvious that DaimlerChrysler is not interested in fully disclosing the nature of this problem or the result of their fix. They are interested in diminishing the performance of the vehicle I purchased in good faith, to place a low cost fix on a significant problem with the mismatch of the engine with the balance of the driveline.

Since this discussion on February 6, 2007 the entire differential assembly had to be replaced in an emergency repair as it failed within the course of 150 miles.

In my previous correspondence I suggested a fair and reasonable solution, which included an extended warranty on the driveline.

Given the lack of response and cooperation from DaimlerChrysler, the five plus weeks I have waited to receive your follow up information, correspondence or any acknowledgement in writing as requested of my concerns; I request the immediate repurchase of my vehicle for the full price I paid.

I expect your response within a reasonable timeframe and I expect it in written form as well as verbal acknowledgement of receipt of this letter.

I am still waiting their response.

tired_old_dave · March 2007

Thank you.

tired_old_dave · March 2007

Thank You

tired_old_dave · March 2007

I used to have some Indian Head from the 50's/60's and was going to mention it. There are the new design hoses, I thought you got them or was it rfcrd at lost. I still remember your posts long long ago about your Isuzu diesel and your enlightenment for us newbies about thin oil being passed thru the turbo (and the ccv). While the vgt is good in theory, when soot and cokable oil mix, its' disassembly and cleaning might become part of the ?k miles maintenance schedule. I was hoping (and may have been working) that redline diesel additive and poe oil would act as a liquid cleaner to self-clean the turbo(even thought about MMO - naptha and wintergreen oil?). Are the bearings failing from thin oil and/or lack of cool down.

caribou1 · March 2007

Hi winter2,
- The hose going to the intake manifold is ~4" shorter on the models equipped with EGR airflow control valve. This makes the hose stiffer.
- Your engine is now mounted on 'hydraulic' vibration dampers if I remember. Damping is made smoother by allowing more movement.
When you put all this together, you get more movement for the engine and a shorter hose. This is a miss match

caribou1 · March 2007

Hi winter2,
- The hose going to the intake manifold is ~4" shorter on the models equipped with EGR airflow control valve. This makes the hose stiffer.
- Your engine is now mounted on 'hydraulic' vibration dampers if I remember. Damping is made smoother by allowing more movement.
When you put all this together, you get more movement for the engine and a shorter hose. This is a miss match

siberia · March 2007

They become porous and spongy with time and exposure to heat and the oil vapors...

This explains why clamps are loosening over time. The hoses are giving in to the pressure of the clamp. We need to find an after market solution or more reasonably priced OEM hoses. :sick:

caribou1 · March 2007

I would settle for a set of these:
http://www.siliconhoses.com/gallery.asp

The 'HUMP hose' is even better to connect onto the EGR airflow control valve:
http://www.boostcontroller.com/index.php?category=34

hamchamp · March 2007

Well said and well written. I can't agree more. They use the term "engineers" loosely :mad: :mad: Hamchamp

twocycle2 · March 2007

Crdnot,

Thank you for sharing the correspondence...DCX's response sounds like the typical "prepared statement" political response. It brings me to this observation, though.....my 2006 is not on the list for the F37. So, one of the two must be true: 1) There is actually a mechanical/design "fix" that was implemented on later units. If so, then DCX has simply taken the cheaper way out with the F37 recall instead of actually replacing the transmissions. OR 2) Mine had already been "reprogrammed" and left the dealer providing less power/torque than stated in the marketing material. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ford get sued over that same thing with the Cobra not providing the advertised HP ratings a few years ago?

Any thoughts on this?
Twocycle2

twocycle2 · March 2007

Caribou1,

I know this has been discussed before, but what automatic tranny is used in the European models? Is it the same as the US version? If not, who makes the tranny and how is it holding up?

It just seems like almost all of the problems the US versions have deal with the parts that were "adapted" for use in the US.....obviously, not enough testing took place.

Twocycle2

twocycle2 · March 2007

This will be my final post this evening, I promise.....what does everyone think about future resale of our CRD's? Reason I ask, right now, a CRD actually carries a small premium in price over a gas liberty....but what about in the future? If this board is any indication of the problem rate, and the media or consumer reports gets a hold of these problems, one negative news story could kill our resale value (consumer reports, like them or hate them, does have a large impact on the success or failure of products). I'm trying to decide if I should sell it now and take a modest hit, or keep it another year and risk taking a major hit. I still really like my CRD, but I grow more and more concerned about it's future every day.

Thx for the input!
Twocycle2

Jeep Liberty Diesel

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