Eric, as the "unofficial" not-quite-mainstream leader here, I welcome you with open arms.
I must forewarn you, sometimes it gets lonely, and you'll be subject to an occasional—but well intended, but not so enlightened—barb or two by those not so blessed.
The Chevy Silverado hybrid has a built in generator, with four 120v outlets, to power anything from circular saws to refrigerators. GM is sending a bunch to help Florida hurricane victims.
It's been brought up before, and I'll bring it up again: it would be great if the next Baja had some sort of built-in generator like that found on the Silverado.
Not gonna happen, for 1 thing the 2.5boxer engine is a bit too weak IMHO to support that. Think of the silverado it's got a big honkin 5.3 or 6.0l engine, not a 2.5 along with the weight added by that they'll get like 2mpg trying to haul around that kind of weight. I'd just assume get a $300 generator from harbor frieght for the few times I need that kind of power.
The engine is, however, you need to have that power converted over. Do you suggest a PTO option? Or will it run off a device bolted in the engine compartment?
It shouldn't be that big of a deal. Subaru has lots of experience with their Subaru/Robins line of generators. If anybody can figure how to make it work, they would be the go-to folks.
BTW, just saw pixs of the '05 Tacoma. It has an in-bed power outlet. Can't tell from the photo as to whether it's a 120v outlet however.
Well bob, unfortunately in the real world you can't just wish things to be done and have them done. I mean c'mon you have a great idea but put some thought behind it, give us the meat and potatoes of it, tell us HOW they should do it, not just ask them to do it!
Kinda like when I complained about security, and offered 3 simple steps on HOW SOA can go about doing it....
Not busting your nutz, just trying to get some good ideas flowing. I know i'd love to have a generator but I'm also practical in trying to find a reasonable way to get it accomplished.
Well bob, unfortunately in the real world you can't just wish things to be done and have them done. I mean c'mon you have a great idea but put some thought behind it, give us the meat and potatoes of it, tell us HOW they should do it, not just ask them to do it!
Come on Mike. Other car companies can do it, Subaru should be able to figure it out. Adding multiple 120v outlets to the pickup bed is not rocket science.
If I were an electrical engineer I'd give you the answers you want. Since I'm not, I can't. Maybe someone else more knowledgable than I can enlighten Mike on what's needed to convert a 12v outlet into a 120v outlet.
I agree. I think it is a feasible request. Couldn't they just beef up the alternator to provide the extra juice along with a transformer to ramp up the voltage? In any event, I believe Subaru could do it fairly easily given the depth of their engineering prowess shown thus far.
As for gas mileage, I think even if it is lower while running the tools, your overall mileage will be better than a full-size truck with a honkin' V8.
I have a simple inverter that plugs into the cigarette lighter, but it's limited in terms of how many watts it can supply. Enough to charge a laptop, definitely not enough for power tools, though.
Subaru could beef it up a bit. Depends upon the application. I don't think Baja will appeal to contractors, so Harry Homeowner might appreciate something that could maybe run an electric pump to fill up a pool float or maybe charge a laptop or cordless drill battery.
So a light duty 120 volt outlet is feasible.
For a true generator, though, maybe only when they offer a hybrid with batteries to store enough power to run the heavy duty stuff long enough.
I see this being feasible on the 7 seater, if it goes hybrid in the future to compete with the RX400H. The Lexus has a huge wait list BTW.
I would like to see 4 or so 120v, 15 amp (20 amp would be better) outlets, much like an electrical power strip you might find at Home Depot. Certainly that's enough power to do most outside chores, and help with the occasional power outages.
There has been a lot of posting in this thread regarding the future of the Baja, of which much of the blame can be laid at my feet.
In terms of priorities, here's a summary of what I think needs to be done, and in this order:
1) Build it off the Tribeca/Halifax platform.
2) Make standard the roll-top locking bed cover (see link earlier posted in this thread).
3) Offer as much real utility as possible: Increased towing. Increased payload. 5-passenger capability. 49" wide switchback opening and 49" of floor space between rear wheelhouses, 97" bed length when switchback is opened and tailgate lowered, full-size spare, etc.
4) Price it so that it will compete with the new Honda SUT and other like vehicles.
5) Offer *irresistible* features not offered on other similar vehicles: 120v electrical outlets in the bed, tailgate with built-in bed extender and drop-down ramp capability, lockable fender storage compartments, etc. Think Swiss Army Knife!
6) Do not go overboard on the styling.
7) Offer accessories that make real sense, unlike the current optional roof lights which only work when the car is not driven.
I'm not going to debate him any more than I have to. As you and everyone here knows, it's a no-win situation when you do.
The whole purpose of this thread is to stimulate ideas and to generate positive thinking on how to make Subarus better vehicles. I'm just not going to get bogged down in yet another negative, why-it-can't-be-done discussion with him. I'll make my points, and offer counter points as needed, but if the discussion seems to be going nowhere (as this one now is), then it's time to bow out.
I've made my points. They're valid, reasonable, and not all that difficult to implement. Mike thinks otherwise. Time to move on.
This topic is like an on-going brain storming session, so it's good to allow plenty of leeway because radical ideas sometimes inspire more reasonable ones.
Of course I say that now but I'm often the party-pooper, so I guess easier said than done.
I like the power outlet idea. How far to go with it is up to a battle between the engineers and the bean counters.
Bob, I think I can "ballpark" your generator in the Baja idea for you: 4 outlets @ 15 amps each @ 120 volts = 7200 watts. It would take about 10 hp to provide that much electricity, so a PTO from the truck engine would do it, but it might be more mechanically practical for the generator to have its own small engine, perhaps with electric starter and fed from the vehicle gas tank.
I recently purchased an emergency generator of about this power, and the generator (minus the engine)is about two feet long and a foot in diameter, so I doubt that a 120V alternator of the required power could be fit under the hood. That means it would take up space in the Baja's small bed, which might be too much of a trade-off for some people.
My generator cost about $1500, so maybe Subaru could hardwire something similar into the Baja for about that much extra.
It is an interesting idea for somebody who needs the electricity more than the lost cargo capacity.
I'm all for power outlets and power, you all know how much I like power. However i'm a realist on these issues and don't ask for things that are very un-realistic to come true.
Bob gets upset when I try to ground things in REALITY rather than his pie-in-the-sky ideas.
-mike
PS: I'd like to have 900hp and a 200inch wheelbase AWD Maybach competitor from FHI, but it's not happening....
Bob gets upset when I try to ground things in REALITY rather than his pie-in-the-sky ideas.
It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with you being a voice of constant "negativism." When was the last time that you applauded an idea being presented here, whether it be from me or someone else? Never as far as I can remember. The only time you chime in here is to shoot down ideas. That's what I'm reacting to.
This thread is about "possibilities," of things that Subaru might be able to do. Even if the ideas are beyond any practical applications, they might trigger other more feasible ideas within their engineering and product planning departments.
Constantly saying you can't do this, or you can't do that, is diametrically opposed to what this thread is about. It's about things you "can" do, not things you "can't" do. As juice said, it's all about brainstorming...
I certainly agree with that last sentence-- there's no real reason to apply a reality filter here, as SOA will do that themselves. If we ask for it and it can't be done, then they won't.
Juice, a number of new pickups offer a bed outlet. The all-new '05 Tacoma being the latest. As to whether they are 12v or 120v, I don't know. My guess is 12v.
Are you guys trying to design a Subaru Hummer? There are too many bloated vehicles out there already. Subaru should stick with what it does best. That's why the Baja tanked... again.
for SOA not to give up on the Baja. The family crew cab market is just exploding. SOA would be giving up on a very lucrative market if they did; but they do need the *right* product.
Ford is laughing all the way to the bank, the Sport Trac is based on an ancient platform and really is a mediocre vehicle on paper (IMO), yet they sell tons of them at a healthy profit. It's a cash cow.
Subaru swung for the fences and let's call it strike one. Maybe because the concept bat was light weight Titanium and the production bat turned out to be two-tone Balsa Wood with lights tacked on.
Maybe what's needed for Subaru to offer a generator-equipped Baja, as per my original suggestion, is to offer it in conjunction with a hybrid option, much like the B9 SC concept's powertrain.
The Silverado hybrid has four 120 volt/20 amp outlets, two in the cab and two in the bed. There's a bit of a description in the link above.
Instead of a conventional starter motor and alternator, the Silverado and Sierra hybrid pickups use a compact 14-kw electric induction motor or starter generator that provides fast, quiet starting power and allows automatic engine stops/starts to conserve fuel. Fuel economy is improved as much as 10 percent over standard gasoline engine counterparts.
Offering a Baja hybrid would certainly give Subaru a marketing edge. I think this would be a great vehicle for Subaru to offer hybrid technology.
I'm really curious to see how the this hybrid Silverado pans out in the real world. I've felt for a long time that larger vehicles, like pickups and SUVs, would be the ideal vehicles for hybrids. BTW, I just read the MB will be offering hybrid power on the next-generation S-Class.
Put it this way, Bob, if and when Subaru does eventually come out with a hybrid, why not include a generator? Particularly if the hybrid will be a Baja style vehicle.
To me it would be a big selling point. My wife still eyeballs generators every time we walk by them, but the little ones only run for 3 hours at a time.
It might lose money for FHI, but it would be a cash cow for dealers, and they need one.
I don't expect Subaru to produce any vehicle that doesn't make money. They need to make a sound business case for anything they produce. This is especially true for the Baja, given its history.
I feel that Subaru should/has to come out with a hybrid vehicle, and the Baja is one platform that it would work on. However, I can see SOA using the OB for a hybrid first, as it is their big seller and would attract buyers that way. One of my co-workers asked me if Subaru plans to offer anytihng in the hybrid market since he wants AWD, but he also wants higher MPG. With Lexus and Ford getting ready to come out with this type of vehicle, can Subaru afford to stay far behind? Hybrid technology is the "flavor of the month", but it is something the consumer is looking for. Didn't Subaru show a hybrid concept earlier in the year?
I agree wholeheartedly that Subaru needs to be in they hybrid space. While it may not be somewhere they would ideally want to put their money, it is something to assure consumers they are environmentally conscious (one past selling point for Subaru) and that they are not falling behind technologically as compared to other makers.
What is the best vehicle on which to put this platform? I see the reasoning behind putting it on the OB, but I see more benefit (other than I want it) to putting it on the Baja:
The Baja couldn't possibly lose sales by offering it in a hybrid form. It would likely add some sales.
It would allow Subaru to debut their hybrid technology on a low volume product. Low volume = lower risk. This has the added benefit of letting them work out the kinks with less repair or recall cost (in case of a large problem) and less publicity (as a failure on the OB would generate).
If offering Hybrid is a loss leader, there is consequently less loss in offering it on a low volume model (Baja) vs. a high volume model (OB) while retaining the benefits of being in the "hybrid" space.
It would show that Subaru isn't just cranking out another hybrid compact (good primarily for commuting) but is looking at applying this technology to real world scenarios with real useful vehicles.
Given the versatility of the Baja (in the absence of an actual hybrid crew cab pickup), it would become an ideal "green" choice for those industries and areas where "green" or at least the image of being "green" is important.
Lastly, I love the idea of the added versatility that you could get out of doubling the hybrid technology to run outlets in the bed. Not that this is a good argument for Subaru to do it except that I like it, would appreciate it as well as use it and it sounds like others would too.
I agree that there is an argument to put hybrid in the OB, and most likely that is the direction that Subaru will go given their (to put it politely) seeming lack of interest in and support for the Baja as a viable product offering.
I've argued these points before, but here goes: 1) I concede that all wheel drive improves safety, however it is not a substitute for stability control (VDC). Suggestion: Offer VDC on all models. 2) The new Legacy has driving dynamics that are reminiscent of more expensive, European cars. It's missing some features that would make it more comparable to those cars. My list includes VDC, auto up/down power windows, an integrated remote key (offered by Subaru in other markets), split folding rear seat, and properly designed door handles (only the Legacy and Baja suffer from this malady). In the event of a crash, grip type door handles (like the Impreza and Forester) enable rescuers to utilize their full body weight to try to open the door. Suggestion: Offer these features.
Comments
I'm not sure it would have done enough volume, but it might have done better than the Baja.
Too risky if you ask me, for a small player like Subaru. There are other, bigger and more profitable niches.
-juice
I'd say it could be risky and not as profitable like you said.
I'll admit my tastes are not quite mainstream.
Eric
Eric, as the "unofficial" not-quite-mainstream leader here, I welcome you with open arms.
I must forewarn you, sometimes it gets lonely, and you'll be subject to an occasional—but well intended, but not so enlightened—barb or two by those not so blessed.
Bob
Look at me, I want a 7 seater with unpainted bumpers and manual A/C, but a moonroof.
-juice
http://autodeadline.com/detail?source=Chevrolet&mid=WKA200408- 1867685&mime=JPG
The Chevy Silverado hybrid has a built in generator, with four 120v outlets, to power anything from circular saws to refrigerators. GM is sending a bunch to help Florida hurricane victims.
It's been brought up before, and I'll bring it up again: it would be great if the next Baja had some sort of built-in generator like that found on the Silverado.
Bob
Not gonna happen, for 1 thing the 2.5boxer engine is a bit too weak IMHO to support that. Think of the silverado it's got a big honkin 5.3 or 6.0l engine, not a 2.5 along with the weight added by that they'll get like 2mpg trying to haul around that kind of weight. I'd just assume get a $300 generator from harbor frieght for the few times I need that kind of power.
-mike
I think a 2500cc or 3000cc engine is more than capable of doubling as a generator. The question is, is Subaru interested?
Bob
Just looking at it from a logistical standpoint.
-mike
BTW, just saw pixs of the '05 Tacoma. It has an in-bed power outlet. Can't tell from the photo as to whether it's a 120v outlet however.
Bob
Kinda like when I complained about security, and offered 3 simple steps on HOW SOA can go about doing it....
Not busting your nutz, just trying to get some good ideas flowing. I know i'd love to have a generator but I'm also practical in trying to find a reasonable way to get it accomplished.
-mike
Come on Mike. Other car companies can do it, Subaru should be able to figure it out. Adding multiple 120v outlets to the pickup bed is not rocket science.
If I were an electrical engineer I'd give you the answers you want. Since I'm not, I can't. Maybe someone else more knowledgable than I can enlighten Mike on what's needed to convert a 12v outlet into a 120v outlet.
Bob
As for gas mileage, I think even if it is lower while running the tools, your overall mileage will be better than a full-size truck with a honkin' V8.
Eric
Subaru could beef it up a bit. Depends upon the application. I don't think Baja will appeal to contractors, so Harry Homeowner might appreciate something that could maybe run an electric pump to fill up a pool float or maybe charge a laptop or cordless drill battery.
So a light duty 120 volt outlet is feasible.
For a true generator, though, maybe only when they offer a hybrid with batteries to store enough power to run the heavy duty stuff long enough.
I see this being feasible on the 7 seater, if it goes hybrid in the future to compete with the RX400H. The Lexus has a huge wait list BTW.
-juice
Inverters are cool but that's not what we are talking about here is it? I thought bob wanted REAL power not just inverter power...
-mike
Maybe they had people plugging things in that drew too much power and blew fuses, I dunno.
-juice
Upping the amps means beefing the noodles... I mean wires.
-Dave
It's certainly doable, if Subaru wants to.
Bob
In terms of priorities, here's a summary of what I think needs to be done, and in this order:
1) Build it off the Tribeca/Halifax platform.
2) Make standard the roll-top locking bed cover (see link earlier posted in this thread).
3) Offer as much real utility as possible: Increased towing. Increased payload. 5-passenger capability. 49" wide switchback opening and 49" of floor space between rear wheelhouses, 97" bed length when switchback is opened and tailgate lowered, full-size spare, etc.
4) Price it so that it will compete with the new Honda SUT and other like vehicles.
5) Offer *irresistible* features not offered on other similar vehicles: 120v electrical outlets in the bed, tailgate with built-in bed extender and drop-down ramp capability, lockable fender storage compartments, etc. Think Swiss Army Knife!
6) Do not go overboard on the styling.
7) Offer accessories that make real sense, unlike the current optional roof lights which only work when the car is not driven.
Bob
Not gonna happen realistically not w/o running a PTO type device.
A larger alternator wouldn't cut it.
-mike
-Frank
The whole purpose of this thread is to stimulate ideas and to generate positive thinking on how to make Subarus better vehicles. I'm just not going to get bogged down in yet another negative, why-it-can't-be-done discussion with him. I'll make my points, and offer counter points as needed, but if the discussion seems to be going nowhere (as this one now is), then it's time to bow out.
I've made my points. They're valid, reasonable, and not all that difficult to implement. Mike thinks otherwise. Time to move on.
Bob
Of course I say that now but I'm often the party-pooper, so I guess easier said than done.
I like the power outlet idea. How far to go with it is up to a battle between the engineers and the bean counters.
-juice
I think I can "ballpark" your generator in the Baja idea for you: 4 outlets @ 15 amps each @ 120 volts = 7200 watts. It would take about 10 hp to provide that much electricity, so a PTO from the truck engine would do it, but it might be more mechanically practical for the generator to have its own small engine, perhaps with electric starter and fed from the vehicle gas tank.
I recently purchased an emergency generator of about this power, and the generator (minus the engine)is about two feet long and a foot in diameter, so I doubt that a 120V alternator of the required power could be fit under the hood. That means it would take up space in the Baja's small bed, which might be too much of a trade-off for some people.
My generator cost about $1500, so maybe Subaru could hardwire something similar into the Baja for about that much extra.
It is an interesting idea for somebody who needs the electricity more than the lost cargo capacity.
-Pete
Bob
-juice
Bob gets upset when I try to ground things in REALITY rather than his pie-in-the-sky ideas.
-mike
PS: I'd like to have 900hp and a 200inch wheelbase AWD Maybach competitor from FHI, but it's not happening....
But seriously, you've been asking for a full-size platform with a torquey engine, so that's not far from the truth.
-juice
It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with you being a voice of constant "negativism." When was the last time that you applauded an idea being presented here, whether it be from me or someone else? Never as far as I can remember. The only time you chime in here is to shoot down ideas. That's what I'm reacting to.
This thread is about "possibilities," of things that Subaru might be able to do. Even if the ideas are beyond any practical applications, they might trigger other more feasible ideas within their engineering and product planning departments.
Constantly saying you can't do this, or you can't do that, is diametrically opposed to what this thread is about. It's about things you "can" do, not things you "can't" do. As juice said, it's all about brainstorming...
Bob
~c
Bob
-juice
Bob
-juice
Bob
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100662
Bob
just remember which one comes first ...
and think of the many things that ARE reality and were only fantasy not that many years ago ...
Bob
Subaru swung for the fences and let's call it strike one. Maybe because the concept bat was light weight Titanium and the production bat turned out to be two-tone Balsa Wood with lights tacked on.
Get the bat right, then swing again.
-juice
Bob
Maybe what's needed for Subaru to offer a generator-equipped Baja, as per my original suggestion, is to offer it in conjunction with a hybrid option, much like the B9 SC concept's powertrain.
The Silverado hybrid has four 120 volt/20 amp outlets, two in the cab and two in the bed. There's a bit of a description in the link above.
Instead of a conventional starter motor and alternator, the Silverado and Sierra hybrid pickups use a compact 14-kw electric induction motor or starter generator that provides fast, quiet starting power and allows automatic engine stops/starts to conserve fuel. Fuel economy is improved as much as 10 percent over standard gasoline engine counterparts.
Bob
I'm really curious to see how the this hybrid Silverado pans out in the real world. I've felt for a long time that larger vehicles, like pickups and SUVs, would be the ideal vehicles for hybrids. BTW, I just read the MB will be offering hybrid power on the next-generation S-Class.
Bob
Subaru needs profitable models.
~c
To me it would be a big selling point. My wife still eyeballs generators every time we walk by them, but the little ones only run for 3 hours at a time.
It might lose money for FHI, but it would be a cash cow for dealers, and they need one.
-juice
Bob
One of my co-workers asked me if Subaru plans to offer anytihng in the hybrid market since he wants AWD, but he also wants higher MPG. With Lexus and Ford getting ready to come out with this type of vehicle, can Subaru afford to stay far behind? Hybrid technology is the "flavor of the month", but it is something the consumer is looking for.
Didn't Subaru show a hybrid concept earlier in the year?
Mark
What is the best vehicle on which to put this platform? I see the reasoning behind putting it on the OB, but I see more benefit (other than I want it) to putting it on the Baja:
The Baja couldn't possibly lose sales by offering it in a hybrid form. It would likely add some sales.
It would allow Subaru to debut their hybrid technology on a low volume product. Low volume = lower risk. This has the added benefit of letting them work out the kinks with less repair or recall cost (in case of a large problem) and less publicity (as a failure on the OB would generate).
If offering Hybrid is a loss leader, there is consequently less loss in offering it on a low volume model (Baja) vs. a high volume model (OB) while retaining the benefits of being in the "hybrid" space.
It would show that Subaru isn't just cranking out another hybrid compact (good primarily for commuting) but is looking at applying this technology to real world scenarios with real useful vehicles.
Given the versatility of the Baja (in the absence of an actual hybrid crew cab pickup), it would become an ideal "green" choice for those industries and areas where "green" or at least the image of being "green" is important.
Lastly, I love the idea of the added versatility that you could get out of doubling the hybrid technology to run outlets in the bed. Not that this is a good argument for Subaru to do it except that I like it, would appreciate it as well as use it and it sounds like others would too.
I agree that there is an argument to put hybrid in the OB, and most likely that is the direction that Subaru will go given their (to put it politely) seeming lack of interest in and support for the Baja as a viable product offering.
1) I concede that all wheel drive improves safety, however it is not a substitute for stability control (VDC). Suggestion: Offer VDC on all models.
2) The new Legacy has driving dynamics that are reminiscent of more expensive, European cars. It's missing some features that would make it more comparable to those cars. My list includes VDC, auto up/down power windows, an integrated remote key (offered by Subaru in other markets), split folding rear seat, and properly designed door handles (only the Legacy and Baja suffer from this malady). In the event of a crash, grip type door handles (like the Impreza and Forester) enable rescuers to utilize their full body weight to try to open the door. Suggestion: Offer these features.
Don't forget a telescoping wheel for the Legacy. They've lost a couple of sales to really tall folks here on Edmunds due to that.
-juice