How can you compare Suzuki and Isuzu to Mazda? I could understand Mitsu and Subaru but Isuzu and freakin Suzuki I don't think so. Suzuki and Isuzu never have had cars legendary cars like RX-7, Miata, and never had a car like the Protege. Where are you dogging Mazda? Ford has owned part of Mazda since 1979 besides hasn't Honda rebadged Isuzu's before? Also, Mazda once sold 370,000 cars in 1 year Isuzu and Suzuki have never sold close to that in 1 year. No shame in comparing Mazda to Subaru. Subaru's are reliable cars even though I really don't care for most of their line-up. I am a big Honda and Mazda fan so I don't like to do dog Honda except mainly for the 03 Accord Sedan design.
Mitsu has only had 2 great hot sellers in their existence: 95-99 Eclipse which was tainted by sub-par build quality. Now they have the EVO.
Toyota/Lexus has nothing besides the Celica, RAV4, MR2 Spyder, and IS300 thats exciting to look at. Camry and Avalon the current generations are the worst loooking generations of those cars.
Toyota has worked with Gm and even shares a plant with them.
Every Car Company has problems with cars even Toyota. Don't tell me a Toyota never has a problem. I see old Mazda's on the road. I see the 90-94 Protege's still running. I see the 93-97 626(even with the Ford tranny in it.) I have seen a few 86 626's around. The Miata has always been reliable.
Toyota and Honda make more money than Mazda. Mazda is smaller then them. Mazda has always been a niche car company.
None of these brands can be summarized for reliability, I would say.
Ford-Mazdas have kind of sucked reliability-wise. Mazda-Mazdas have been above average for reliability and fun factor.
Subaru makes excellent cars that are second-to-almost-none in engineering quality and reliability.
Isuzu makes really good diesels and trucks, for the most part, and Suzuki is the number three automaker in Japan - they make very good cars when they are not busy rebadging someone else's cars. The Isuzu and Suzuki we see in the U.S., particularly since the GM interference with Isuzu, are not truly reflective of those companies' worth in their home markets.
Nissan had some hard years and one or two bad models, but they are right up there reliability-wise, for the most part. Look at all the early 80s maximas and Z cars still driving around, and selling for a decent sum considering their age.
Mitsu has been completely diluted by its relationship with Chrysler, now DCX. Hopefully the influence of Daimler will serve to improve their products from the 90s when most of them were as lousy as their Dodge/Chrysler counterparts. But it is a shame to see how far down Mitsu has been brought by this relationship. They are now the king of the "buy our cars, we won't make you even send a payment for the first year" sales.
Toyo/Honda's reliability has slipped as they have entered the mainstream of multiple millions of sales annually. It remains to be seen whether or not their current to-the-bone cost-cutting campaign and their ever-increasing annual sales will conspire to knock their reliability down to average. That story will be told in five years or so.
Some decent percentage of car sales are made on adrenaline alone, which is why so many car companies (especially the Japanese) are currently chasing the title of sexiest, sportiest midsize sedan. Since sport has been Mazda's forte in the past and is probably how the American buying public best knows it as a brand, it seems to me they must pursue the path of sporty designs without allowing Ford parts and meddling to get in the mix too much (actually, as little as absolutely possible!). And along the way, it wouldn't hurt to dump one or two low-volume, not-so-sporty models...
Oh yeah, and leave "luxury" to someone else. Just make them nice without being spartan. Much more important to focus on sporty designs and performance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think Mazda is one of the better car companies out there. Their products are always different (in a good way), and it seems they think "outside the box" and encourage creativity. The famous rotary and miller-cycle engines, RX-8 (suicide doors), and Mazda6 (huge trunk due to new rear suspension) are good examples of this line of thought. Rehashing another company's design may create competition to drive down prices, but it doesn't offer the consumer a choice of what driving experience they are interested in- essentially we're left with variations of the same thing. Mazda has successfully made a fun family sedan, a fuel efficient roadster, and a 4-dr sports car. Their reliability is class-leading (in some classes), and when they try to make a car fun, regardless of how powerful it is, they succeed (look at the Protege). Truly this company enjoys driving, and I appreciate that. Buying from a boring company (to me) is like going to a bald barber.
That said, if Mazda does not regain popularity in America, I will not have lost faith in Mazda, but rather the buying American public.
Isuzu and Suzuki have never been a player in the US Market even when GM didn't own those companies in the 80's to mid 90's period.
As far as Mitsubishi is concerned Chrysler is not to blame for their problems Mitsu should blame their own management. Mitsu was an ok company in the 80's/early 90's. Then somewhere around 1995 they became sleazy: sexual harrasement lawsuits, hiding recall notices in lockers, terrible build quality, and too much cost costing. In 1998 Pierre Gagnon came in there and cleaned house. The company is run cleany now but Mitsu made some crappy mistakes circa 1995-1997. Build quality has greatly improved but I think Mazda still has better build quality than Mitsu.
I've explained Mazda situation many times. As far Mazda regaining the American buying back if they can sell 270,000 cars this year I think that would be good. Mazda has sold 70,000 cars this year so far 270,000 still looks realistic. Their goal was to sell 300,000 cars this year. I don't think thats attainable because of the bad economy in the US. Declining sales in the last year and a half for Mazda causes kind of a concern though. Mazda in Europe is making profits like crazy though.
Subaru situation is more humorous than Mazda's and Mitsu's back mid 90's mess-ups with Ford Parts, bad product decesions and terrible build quality. Subaru wasn't even thought of as a player in 1996. They were like Volvo: out of style and played out. Around 1998 they started to become cool because of the SUV trend. Subaru had the motto: Is it an SUV or a station wagon? They just had to keep us guessing didn't they? Than the WRX came put and became a favorite of younger buyers. Remember this is the same company that made the Justy.
The problem: They cost too much. Sounds odd? My mother in law has a protege, a 98,base model. Nice car and reliable as theday is long. It wasaround 11Kon sale. Same type of car today, MSRP around 17K. Why the major increase in 5 years?? The RX-8 is a nice car, even has 4 seating, but at a rumored 31K loaded? Altima is cheaper, and as fast. Can get a Maxima,too. OR a Wrx-sti(awd).Camry, Avalon,Acuras, Accord, or Xg350, or........a ton of other cars. See, Mazda used to be known as the afordable/sporty Japanese car comapny(Datsun started this trend witht he Originla Z car in 1969, so both comapnies were like this in mid-80's, affordable, less expensive alternatives to Toyota or Honda, by a grand or two, on avg).
Now, they are MORE costly, it seems. THAT is the problem
My friend just bought an '02 Protege LX w/ sunroof and alloys for $12,000 (after $500 college grad rebate). That's much cheaper than he could've jumped into a Corolla or Civic for.
I just bought a Mazda6 for $17,201 with the same rebate. I purchased the Mazda 17" wheels seperately bringing my cost to $17,751, for a vehicle that I consider leagues beyond my Wife's '02 Camry and our friend's 03 Accord EX (both considerably more expensive).
The RX-8 starts at $25-$26k (think it'll hold MSRP like the premium brands it competes against?) which is waaaay below its competition, [i]if[/i] this car can be compared to anything else out there. The G35coupe starts at $33k, right?
The Miata is the least expensive roadster on the road, and despite that, it's perhaps the most fun too.
Really, I think the future of Mazda is up to their marketing department.
Currently, their commercials do NOTHING to invoke emotion, and really that's the true strength of the company. They aren't selling their product- their emotion. Drive a Mazda, and you'll know the car has personality and soul, very unlike most of its competitors (in any class). Yet, the commercials do nothing to show this.
We see what...? A car driving around, windows tinted, and no driver at all. All the shots are quick and confusing, doing nothing to create a desire for the car, other than possibly exterior styling- which is shallow.
Mazda needs to show an audience that when you buy a Mazda, you enjoy driving. We drive every day- wouldn't it be nice if it always felt like a departure from adulthood? It will make you feel elite among ordinary, conformist, appliance vehicles- Volkswagon advertises in this way. Mazda needs to do it too. Emotion in motion.
When I drive my Mazda6, I feel like the guy in the most recent Camry SE commercial: driving 55mph backwards on the freeway, doing 360's, and driving with my head out the window. That's the kind of fun I have (and have had) with Mazda vehicles, and that's something I found in their cars myself, mostly by chance. The commercials did nothing to make me aware of this spirit- it was only chance that I went on my first test drive, and was hooked.
If the future of Mazda lies in the hands of chance, consider them dead, great product or not.
not that I disagree with you, far from it, but I must say I used to drive my friend's '89 626 quite a bit, and I did not experience any of this excitement you are alluding to. I also think Mazda IS excitement on the road - that is their angle and a well-earned one at that. Perhaps the 626 of the last decade or more has been hurting them in the long run by not living up to this image?
PS Note to self: MUST go test-drive the new 6.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My neighbour bought a 03 Corolla in 2002, AT, A/C, CD, no power windows and locks, no alloys, no sunroof, no spoiler. His cost (including taxes, interest, etc) $29.000 CAD.
My cost for my 2001 PRO ES w/AT, A/C, CD, power windows and locks, spoiler, fog lights, after taxes and interest - $24.190 CAD.
A 2003 PRO ES GT (alloys, all power, spoiler, sunroof, A/C w/MT) is $27.000 CAD after taxes and interest on mazda.ca
Mazdas are not expensive or cheap (no Hyundai pricing either), but do offer lots of VALUE in terms of reliability, styling, fun to drive, options/$.
Like Stretchsje said, Mazda's commercials do nothing to show that Emotion in Motion feeling we get when driving our Mazdas. If it wasn't for being bored one afternoon and dropping by a Mazda dealer just to see what cars they have, I would be driving a Sentra or Civic now. Just the thought of what I could be missing scares me
As much as I hate them, even the big 3 have a few products that can be deemed reliable.
And what about the GM-Honda trade of engines for transmissions? Betcha didn't know about that one. Buy the upcoming redline Saturn Vue and you get all that ugliness with a Honda V6. Honda has not announced where they are using the GM trannys, but you better check your parts list carefully when you buy your beloved Honda in the next few years because...gosh darned it...you might end up with a GM transmission.
There is a whole history behind why Honda and Toyota are so big, and poor Mazda has to lower itself to ask Ford for help. It goes back to World War 2 when Mazda was nearly obliterated by the Hiroshima bomb. Toyota and Honda took advantage of that and, in some opinions, did it with some poor business principles. If it wasn't for some truly ingenious Mazda engineers, we would not even be having this topic of discussion.
Mazda will never be a Toyota or Honda (THANK GOD!). You Toyota/Honda lovers just keep fooling yourselves as I put 150,000 care free highly entertaining miles on my Mazda.
...I saw a 1972 Mazda R3?(a boxy yellow coupe) on the road the other night. It looked a bit timeworn but wasn't rusted or running poorly. I thought all of them were killed off by rust and/or rotor seal failure. Any Japanese car of that vintage is an extremely rare sight in the Northeast.
The 6 is being assembled in Flat Rock, so I doubt it will do much for Mazda's reputation for reliability. Everything that has come out of that plant (626, Cougar) has been crap.
"Everything that has come out of that plant (626, Cougar) has been crap"
The 626 that were "crap" as you say were the one with ATs from Ford. The MT ones weren't. The 6 is all Mazda (only the Duratech BLOCK is being used), so I suspect it will be "crap".
Yes I would prefer that it came from the same factory as the Protege, but if I had the $ now, the M6 would be IT.
You're right, Ford doesn't use any metal in their engine blocks anymore. They've developed a new crap casting process with Cosworth. The block in the new Mazda6 is cast out of crap. Pretty ingenious if you ask me.
IMO, what nearly killed Mazda (and Nissan, for that matter) was trying to out-Toyota Toyota - going for huge volume in the center of the market. That meant trying to field a competitor in every segment Toyota competed in, and they couldn't do it without Ford's help - hence the shared powertrains, rebadged Ranger and Explorer (Navajo), and investing in a Lexus-competitive division called Amati, which was scrapped. The Millenia was the only substantive result of this effort, and even it has been subpar.
So they're going back to what they're good at - creating great handling, good looking sedans like the Protege and 6, topping off the range with a rotary powered halo car, and continuing to sell the Miata. Sporty all around. Although, they'll probably keep the Tribute around as a cash cow. Instead of being all things to all people, they're focusing on a specific segment that's looking for something a little different from the masses, and hopefully is willing to pay a bit of a premium.
You must be lucky,then, to be honest. Not here. They closed one dealership 6 months ago. The Owner of Hara Arena near Dayton Ohio decided to retire(he was selling Mazda/Hyundai and Dodge). One guy purchased the Dodge bldg, and another is selling Hyundai only. Mazda stock was sold out.
There are no only 2 dealerships of Mazda's in a 100 mile radius of where I live. The one has about 30 cars, the other has about 50. (one in Ohio, one in Indiana).
They said 17K and stuck with the pricing, guess they knew they were selling out of stock and closing the dealership? anyhow, i have NOT had anyone offer 12K on Protege. Not in my area. Only 12K cars I have seen on sale even are Sentra, ElantraGLS, and that is about it.
The Flat Rock plant was originally run by Mazda, but the quality and labor relations problems caused Ford to take control (this was back in the Probe/626 days). At that time, the quality problems were put down to poor worker morale. Supposedly, the American workers didn't like assembling Japanese cars.
Then, when they Cougar came out, there were all these stories about how they had improved the plant and that Flat Rock's reputation for poor quality could be ignored. Well, guess what. The cougar had terrible build quality.
Now they are building the 6 there. You can gamble that everything has been fixed now, but I wouldn't. That was one of the main reasons that I ruled out a 6 when I recently purchased a car.
Rotary engine also was designed and made by Lada (Russia) for police interceptor. They probably still are improving it.
As far as I know Mazda6 is the best car in its class according to comparos, and as I heard even new Mondeo will be based on Mazda6 platform. Ford wanted Mazda to use Mondeo platform, but Mazda didn't agree. So Mazda basically developed new platform for the Ford and Volvo. As I know current small Volvo platform was designed in cooperation with Mitsu. Mazda also developed new line of advanced I4 engines for Ford. Basically whats happening - increasing integration of Ford, Mazda and Volvo. Mazda takes care of small platforms and I4s and Volvo of safety aspects and FWD big car platform.
BTW in Europe Mazda6 was a success. Toyota is struggling to sell Avensis there, even though it is the most reliable car there for many years. Toyota even redesigned it as a VW clone for that reason.
if anyone see a new protege for 12K, please send link to the newspapaer or a scan printout here for us to see. Not being nasty, I just like to see stuff in writing, to behonest. (no, the Enquirer does not count, lol.). Mazda's are(were?) decent cars. I do not know what happened to their sales. They have been off going on second year now. Kia is almost beating them for 10th place on the sales scale. (in fact, they did in 01). It is perception of paying too much for certain vehicles. RX-8 at say $23K loaded, not 31K, the public might buy more of them. (there are a few sporty cars thatcan be had with V6 for under 20K,like Tiburon. That's it really for V6.you can also get a Neon SR4 for under 20K, turboed charged with 215hp and 245 torque). 0-60 in under 6 seconds for the Neon, and about 7 seconds for V6 Tiburon.
I'd ratherkeep the extra 10grand and buy something else. Even a Mini-CooperS turboed. 200HP.
...was after $1500 incentive (instead of financing) and a $500 college grad rebate. I believe it was still under invoice without the rebates, as the 2003's were arriving and dealers were trying to unload 2002's.
I assure you though, the $12,000 purchase (LX w/ sunroof, alloys, and I think alarm) was true. I almost did it, but bought the Mazda6 instead. So, I lived through my friend and convinced him to take up that deal on the Protege, and he doesn't regret it at all. He was shopping for a used Accord at the time.
at 12K, that sort of makes more sense now. I have seen XG350's for 15-17K( usually 23-26K carsfrom Hyundai) last month.(New ones comingout soon, slightly larger and reskinned). They are trying to get rid of stock fast. Have seen lots of cas for saletrying to get rid of "slightly used"(tester models?)Sonatas with 3-10K miles, but "new" 2002's; still get warranty as if a 2003.
They were selling them for 13-15K, 13K for 4 cylinder, and 15,500 for LX(leather and V6).
Man, This is a buyers market.Unfortunately,I am not in the market to buy right now. Know my luck, interest rateswill be 11.9% again(like in 1990) and cars may sell MSRP.
Cougar was based on Mondeo platform. My point is that the guys screwing the Mazda 6 together, are the same guys who didn't do a good job screwing two other cars together. In my opinion, it doesn't bode well for Mazda that the car they are banking on restoring their North American fortunes is being assembled by these guys.
Mazda is not going to get a third chance to gain market and mindshare in America.
but it would probably help Mazda North America if it made an investment in having stand-alone dealerships here. Sharing showroom space with two other brands says "niche" to the customers. And "niche" can't hope much to gain huge market share, just by definition.
There are only two Mazda dealers within 30 miles of me, of which one sells Subarus as well, and one is an "imports" dealer ("imports" in the name) selling Mazda, Subaru, VW, and Volvo.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Not here. They closed one dealership 6 months ago. The Owner of Hara Arena near Dayton Ohio decided to retire(he was selling Mazda/Hyundai and Dodge). One guy purchased the Dodge bldg, and another is selling Hyundai only. Mazda stock was sold out.
There are now only 2 dealerships of Mazda's in a 100 mile radius of where I live. The one has about 30 cars, the other has about 50. (one in Ohio, one in Indiana)."
Actually, even though that franchise closed, a new Mazda franchise started east of Dayton, out in Beavercreek. Sales staff is very nice and they seem to be doing alright so far in sales. They better do alright, as they're constructing a very fancy building for the new franchise (they only have a temporary building right now).
In my opinion, all Mazda needs to do is find its niche, like Subaru did. "Zoom-zoom" and marketing its sportiness is a great first step. Maybe its true calling is to become the rotary company though? We'll see how the RX-8 does.
Mazda is clearly much more successful in Canada than in the US. One of the major reasons for this - I believe - is that Canada seems to have a much stronger dealer network.
I have personally never seen a Mazda dealer in Canada that was paired up with another brand. I think that lends itself to a "fly-by-night" kind of impression that is very destructive to overall brand image.
Mazda in the US should think long and hard about buying back franchises and setting up more freestanding dealerships. That way Mazda is the main focus and not something that salespeople do off the corner of their desks.
Now that you mention it, right off the top of my head, I don't even know where the nearest Mazda dealership is to me! I think there's one in College Park, MD, which is about 20 miles away from me. Took me a minute or 2 to remember it, though! In contrast, two local Daewoo dealers (well, I guess that's "former" Daewoo dealers) pop into my mind immediately!
I live in the Twin Cities which isn't exactly one of the bigger metro areas (about 3 million) and there are 5 Mazda dealers within 20 miles of where I live and more if you want to drive farther. I'd say that's enough.
Maybe Mazda dealers are more sparse in other parts of the country?
I'd actually expect them to be more scarce towards the middle of the country, and more common on the coasts! I'm near Annapolis, MD, about 20 miles from either DC or Baltimore.
Hey, is that Mazda dealership part of Voss-auto Network? Seems that Voss rules that area, near Centerville-Miamisburg...Voss has : Chevy,Hyundai,Land Rover, Cadillac,BMW,Toyota and Honda..only Honda is not around Dayton, but up on I-75 closer to Piqua. They have 8 brands they sell, forgot Dodge.
I just do not know: People know "zoom-zoom" commercials, but don't bother buying the product.
The Eclipse supposedly helped Mitsubishi regain sales, though thy aren't doing extremely well this year. VW Bug boosted their sales for a few years. Hyundai's 10/100,000 warranty helped get people into show rooms. Nissan's ALtima and Z cars (and Renault's ownership) helped Nissan regain customers. So, why has not ZOom ZOom helped? Are the cars " bland"? DO some foreign car buyers say"Ford owns them,share platforms, I am not buying from them at all? Is it "these prices are higher than Nissan, Suzuki,and a few othetrs, I ain't payin' that much for a new car?"(let's not do the 2002 model thing, all dealerships have been selling 2002's at firesale prices, even Cavaliers were 10,500 dollars loaded, for 02's, a few months ago). My mother-in-law said her Protege was nice, but she does not like it, it "handles funny", compared to her 92 Cavalier(the doors on that thing were like heavy balance weights.). She did get hit in that car, and spun out in her 4x4 Tracker, and slid in the Mazda... so... blame the driver here. SOme people can't face themselves in the miror and be honest. Like I said, in 01. a fully loaded(no leather o sunroof) MSRP was a tad over 17K for a fully-loadedProtege... less expensvie than Honda or Toyota, but more than the Sentra, or Elantra, or even Focus, and others. It was nice, but not 17K nice,to me. For 17k ack thn , I could get a muidsized car, V6, leather, sunroof,etc...Sonata.
That's what I would expect too. It isn't surprising that Mazda isn't represented well in rural areas because NO imports are really represented well in rural areas. The Baltimore/DC area has WAY more people than the Twin Cities area, I'd expect them to have more Mazda dealers.
...only one Mazda dealer I can think of - a standalone store Roosevelt Boulevard in Philadelphia at a rather unaccessible location. Both the building and the lot look rather forlorn. You think they'd mate Mazda with Ford dealerships as the two are related.
I don't think the Flat Rock Plant is a bad plant. The 88-92 626 was assemebled there and was a nicely built car. About American workers building foreign cars that was a totally different time. It was a sin in the mid 80's/ealy 90's period of an American bought a foreign car but now its excepted. The 626's reliability had hovered around average to above average many years. I definately wouldn't rule out the 6 just because of where its being assembled. Using a Ford Block isn't going to hurt Mazda. Would I like to see Mazda use their own V-6? yes but using the Ford Block is not bad.
I don't think Mazda is asking for too much money for their products. The Neon has a bad reliability record. The Mini Cooper-thats German so parts are going to cost you more in the long run. The Altima goes up against the 6 not the RX-8. The Celica and RSX are different cars from the RX-8. The G35 Coupe, 350Z, and 04 Pontiac GTO will be the RX-8's main competition.
About Dealer Network I have dealers that are 5-35 minutes away in NJ. There's one 2 minutes down the road from me: Crystal Auto Mall on RT 22 which also sells Dodge and Toyota, Open Road Mazda on RT 1 in Edison, NJ(open Road also sells Honda's and BMW's), Maxon Mazda on RT 22 west(they also sell Hyundai's.) Yeah the Dealer Network needs to get better. I'll agree with tht point. Also 40 minutes away is Sansone Mazda in Woodbridge, NJ on RT 1(they also sell Nissan, Toyota, and Hyundai.) There's DCH Mazda in Milburn, NJ which also sells Volkswagon's.
I think this issue of a solid dealer network is predominant in the US. Like Groovy said, I have never seen a Mazda being sold out of the same building as another make.
These are within a max 30min drive of me in Toronto:
Dufferin Mazda Avante Mazda of Toronto Avante Mazda of Richmond Hill Westside Mazda Gyro Mazda Scarboro Mazda Morningside Mazda Ontario Mazda Prima Mazda Erin Mills Mazda Mazda of Brampton
There are a few more dealers, but farther (30+mins).
where I live, only way to see an import is to go to the local guy who buys from auto autcions. They are usually 1 year old cars with 15,000-30K on them(rentlas, I bet, because they look like coffee,etc, were spilled on seats and stuff). Guy has VW,Hyundai,Kia,Toyota, and a few others, but the insides of some look as if they had been abused. I wonder, if Imports were closer to my town, would they outsell the other domestics? I do see Altimas,Camry,Accord, Civic, Hyundai, these are the ones I see,so some people must venture to Dayton or nearby(35-65 miles away..closest foreign car dealerships are Hyundai at 35 miles, Toyota at 40, then Honda at 40 miles..and Mitsu at 37, in Indiana).
One dealership ahs Suzuki's for 5 years, and closed it down, they also sold Chevy's there..I went to look at an Aerio last year, for FMI(for my information) and the salesman was in the mood of "I could care less" about Suzuki. They had 2 salesmen and 15 cars, if that many.(this was sort of in the country, in a town of 15,000). I went back recently and the place was closed down. One saleman asked me if he could help, I asked about Suzuki, and he said they couldn't sell the cars(???? DIDN't Want to try to sell them?). After that closed, they have a rent a car center and are renting out their old lineup of suzukis. And the suzuki part was turned into Chevy)expanded showroom). I called one guy last year, my mother in law wanted to try to sell her Protege locally(she kept it, but rarely drives it) and they are like not an auto auction, but get newer 2-3 year old cars, fix them up, and sell them. They had a VW bug on the lot(this place is usually domestics only) and they sold it in 2 weeks. I called the guy and asked if they'd buy a Protege. He asked"what maker is it?" I said Mazda, and he said" we don't buy those type of cars". I asked what do you mean, you had a VW on your lot. Are your referring to we don't buy foreign cars? He said I got to go and hung up. These guys act like you're a traitor if you buy any car other than domestic(just a label these days,really, in most cases).
I just think people here are either "buy USA only for generations", or just too lazy to drive 1 hour to buy a foreign make. (my mother in law complained when she drove 35 miles to get Mazda tuned up, once every 3 years. Geez). I am DAV, and have been everywhere, and still am bemused by these people. It is like they never travel out of their own county or something. They need to get out more and discover that there are other people,opinions out there, not just my way or the hwy. What makes me laugh is thatFord owners still blast Chevy, and visa versa, sometimes, but as soon a s a "foreign car" comes into the discussion, they "join forces" and say"why don't you buy American?"\
Down here at the Jersey shore I can buy any of teh domestics right in town as well as Honda and Nissan. For Mazda (or even Toyota!) I have a 20 - 25 mile drive.
The Mazda dealer is Mazda Lincoln Mercury and in my one experience with them is a high pressure place. Just what I need - some clown who thinks I'm going to part with major money just to get him to let up on the pressure. Grrrr. This does make for a problem if I were in the market right now in that I'd want to look at a 6 but would have to travel 40 miles or better to hit a decent dealership.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
They seemed to be pretty good, too. Didn't buy from them (they couldn't find a used Protege ES with a 5 speed) but I'd definitely go back there for an MPV (likely) or an RX8 (in my dreams).
might be: why does Mazda do so darn well in Canada? Look at that long list of independent dealers, and all of Canada has what, 30 million people?
Plus, other manufacturers like Ford GM Toyota Nissan etc do compete there. The only one I can think of offhand that they do not have is Subaru, which is a small-sales manufacturer anyway.
If we knew what the key was to Mazda doing so well in Canada, perhaps we could import it to the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I apologize, I would like to make a correction. It was Nissan not Honda, Honda did not start as a company until 1948. (Actually, Mazda was not Mazda back then either, it was Toyo Kogyo.)
Toyota and Nissan merely took advantage of some government restrictions after the war, I am not suggesting they did anything unlawful.
This is all water under the bridge anyway, I was just hot under the collar from SIENNA's comments.
Anyway, I apologize for the misinformation...hopefully we all take each other's facts with a grain of salt anyway, and do some independent research.
Comments
Mitsu has only had 2 great hot sellers in their existence: 95-99 Eclipse which was tainted by sub-par build quality. Now they have the EVO.
Toyota/Lexus has nothing besides the Celica, RAV4, MR2 Spyder, and IS300 thats exciting to look at. Camry and Avalon the current generations are the worst loooking generations of those cars.
Toyota has worked with Gm and even shares a plant with them.
Every Car Company has problems with cars even Toyota. Don't tell me a Toyota never has a problem. I see old Mazda's on the road. I see the 90-94 Protege's still running. I see the 93-97 626(even with the Ford tranny in it.) I have seen a few 86 626's around. The Miata has always been reliable.
Toyota and Honda make more money than Mazda. Mazda is smaller then them. Mazda has always been a niche car company.
Ford-Mazdas have kind of sucked reliability-wise. Mazda-Mazdas have been above average for reliability and fun factor.
Subaru makes excellent cars that are second-to-almost-none in engineering quality and reliability.
Isuzu makes really good diesels and trucks, for the most part, and Suzuki is the number three automaker in Japan - they make very good cars when they are not busy rebadging someone else's cars. The Isuzu and Suzuki we see in the U.S., particularly since the GM interference with Isuzu, are not truly reflective of those companies' worth in their home markets.
Nissan had some hard years and one or two bad models, but they are right up there reliability-wise, for the most part. Look at all the early 80s maximas and Z cars still driving around, and selling for a decent sum considering their age.
Mitsu has been completely diluted by its relationship with Chrysler, now DCX. Hopefully the influence of Daimler will serve to improve their products from the 90s when most of them were as lousy as their Dodge/Chrysler counterparts. But it is a shame to see how far down Mitsu has been brought by this relationship. They are now the king of the "buy our cars, we won't make you even send a payment for the first year" sales.
Toyo/Honda's reliability has slipped as they have entered the mainstream of multiple millions of sales annually. It remains to be seen whether or not their current to-the-bone cost-cutting campaign and their ever-increasing annual sales will conspire to knock their reliability down to average. That story will be told in five years or so.
Some decent percentage of car sales are made on adrenaline alone, which is why so many car companies (especially the Japanese) are currently chasing the title of sexiest, sportiest midsize sedan. Since sport has been Mazda's forte in the past and is probably how the American buying public best knows it as a brand, it seems to me they must pursue the path of sporty designs without allowing Ford parts and meddling to get in the mix too much (actually, as little as absolutely possible!). And along the way, it wouldn't hurt to dump one or two low-volume, not-so-sporty models...
Oh yeah, and leave "luxury" to someone else. Just make them nice without being spartan. Much more important to focus on sporty designs and performance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That said, if Mazda does not regain popularity in America, I will not have lost faith in Mazda, but rather the buying American public.
As far as Mitsubishi is concerned Chrysler is not to blame for their problems Mitsu should blame their own management. Mitsu was an ok company in the 80's/early 90's. Then somewhere around 1995 they became sleazy: sexual harrasement lawsuits, hiding recall notices in lockers, terrible build quality, and too much cost costing. In 1998 Pierre Gagnon came in there and cleaned house. The company is run cleany now but Mitsu made some crappy mistakes circa 1995-1997. Build quality has greatly improved but I think Mazda still has better build quality than Mitsu.
I've explained Mazda situation many times. As far Mazda regaining the American buying back if they can sell 270,000 cars this year I think that would be good. Mazda has sold 70,000 cars this year so far 270,000 still looks realistic. Their goal was to sell 300,000 cars this year. I don't think thats attainable because of the bad economy in the US. Declining sales in the last year and a half for Mazda causes kind of a concern though. Mazda in Europe is making profits like crazy though.
Subaru situation is more humorous than Mazda's and Mitsu's back mid 90's mess-ups with Ford Parts, bad product decesions and terrible build quality. Subaru wasn't even thought of as a player in 1996. They were like Volvo: out of style and played out. Around 1998 they started to become cool because of the SUV trend. Subaru had the motto: Is it an SUV or a station wagon? They just had to keep us guessing didn't they? Than the WRX came put and became a favorite of younger buyers. Remember this is the same company that made the Justy.
My mother in law has a protege, a 98,base model. Nice car and reliable as theday is long.
It wasaround 11Kon sale. Same type of car today, MSRP around 17K.
Why the major increase in 5 years??
The RX-8 is a nice car, even has 4 seating, but at a rumored 31K loaded?
Altima is cheaper, and as fast.
Can get a Maxima,too.
OR a Wrx-sti(awd).Camry, Avalon,Acuras, Accord, or Xg350, or........a ton of other cars.
See, Mazda used to be known as the afordable/sporty Japanese car comapny(Datsun started this trend witht he Originla Z car in 1969, so both comapnies were like this in mid-80's, affordable, less expensive alternatives to Toyota or Honda, by a grand or two, on avg).
Now, they are MORE costly, it seems.
THAT is the problem
I just bought a Mazda6 for $17,201 with the same rebate. I purchased the Mazda 17" wheels seperately bringing my cost to $17,751, for a vehicle that I consider leagues beyond my Wife's '02 Camry and our friend's 03 Accord EX (both considerably more expensive).
The RX-8 starts at $25-$26k (think it'll hold MSRP like the premium brands it competes against?) which is waaaay below its competition, [i]if[/i] this car can be compared to anything else out there. The G35coupe starts at $33k, right?
The Miata is the least expensive roadster on the road, and despite that, it's perhaps the most fun too.
BTW... thanks CarGuy
Currently, their commercials do NOTHING to invoke emotion, and really that's the true strength of the company. They aren't selling their product- their emotion. Drive a Mazda, and you'll know the car has personality and soul, very unlike most of its competitors (in any class). Yet, the commercials do nothing to show this.
We see what...? A car driving around, windows tinted, and no driver at all. All the shots are quick and confusing, doing nothing to create a desire for the car, other than possibly exterior styling- which is shallow.
Mazda needs to show an audience that when you buy a Mazda, you enjoy driving. We drive every day- wouldn't it be nice if it always felt like a departure from adulthood? It will make you feel elite among ordinary, conformist, appliance vehicles- Volkswagon advertises in this way. Mazda needs to do it too. Emotion in motion.
When I drive my Mazda6, I feel like the guy in the most recent Camry SE commercial: driving 55mph backwards on the freeway, doing 360's, and driving with my head out the window. That's the kind of fun I have (and have had) with Mazda vehicles, and that's something I found in their cars myself, mostly by chance. The commercials did nothing to make me aware of this spirit- it was only chance that I went on my first test drive, and was hooked.
If the future of Mazda lies in the hands of chance, consider them dead, great product or not.
PS Note to self: MUST go test-drive the new 6.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota tried to sell re-badged Cavaliers in Japan, unsuccessfully.
My cost for my 2001 PRO ES w/AT, A/C, CD, power windows and locks, spoiler, fog lights, after taxes and interest - $24.190 CAD.
A 2003 PRO ES GT (alloys, all power, spoiler, sunroof, A/C w/MT) is $27.000 CAD after taxes and interest on mazda.ca
Mazdas are not expensive or cheap (no Hyundai pricing either), but do offer lots of VALUE in terms of reliability, styling, fun to drive, options/$.
Like Stretchsje said, Mazda's commercials do nothing to show that Emotion in Motion feeling we get when driving our Mazdas. If it wasn't for being bored one afternoon and dropping by a Mazda dealer just to see what cars they have, I would be driving a Sentra or Civic now. Just the thought of what I could be missing scares me
Dinu
And what about the GM-Honda trade of engines for transmissions? Betcha didn't know about that one. Buy the upcoming redline Saturn Vue and you get all that ugliness with a Honda V6. Honda has not announced where they are using the GM trannys, but you better check your parts list carefully when you buy your beloved Honda in the next few years because...gosh darned it...you might end up with a GM transmission.
There is a whole history behind why Honda and Toyota are so big, and poor Mazda has to lower itself to ask Ford for help. It goes back to World War 2 when Mazda was nearly obliterated by the Hiroshima bomb. Toyota and Honda took advantage of that and, in some opinions, did it with some poor business principles. If it wasn't for some truly ingenious Mazda engineers, we would not even be having this topic of discussion.
Mazda will never be a Toyota or Honda (THANK GOD!). You Toyota/Honda lovers just keep fooling yourselves as I put 150,000 care free highly entertaining miles on my Mazda.
The 626 that were "crap" as you say were the one with ATs from Ford. The MT ones weren't. The 6 is all Mazda (only the Duratech BLOCK is being used), so I suspect it will be "crap".
Yes I would prefer that it came from the same factory as the Protege, but if I had the $ now, the M6 would be IT.
Dinu
So they're going back to what they're good at - creating great handling, good looking sedans like the Protege and 6, topping off the range with a rotary powered halo car, and continuing to sell the Miata. Sporty all around. Although, they'll probably keep the Tribute around as a cash cow. Instead of being all things to all people, they're focusing on a specific segment that's looking for something a little different from the masses, and hopefully is willing to pay a bit of a premium.
-Jason
Not here. They closed one dealership 6 months ago.
The Owner of Hara Arena near Dayton Ohio decided to retire(he was selling Mazda/Hyundai and Dodge).
One guy purchased the Dodge bldg, and another is selling Hyundai only.
Mazda stock was sold out.
There are no only 2 dealerships of Mazda's in a 100 mile radius of where I live.
The one has about 30 cars, the other has about 50.
(one in Ohio, one in Indiana).
They said 17K and stuck with the pricing, guess they knew they were selling out of stock and closing the dealership?
anyhow, i have NOT had anyone offer 12K on Protege. Not in my area. Only 12K cars I have seen on sale even are Sentra, ElantraGLS, and that is about it.
Then, when they Cougar came out, there were all these stories about how they had improved the plant and that Flat Rock's reputation for poor quality could be ignored. Well, guess what. The cougar had terrible build quality.
Now they are building the 6 there. You can gamble that everything has been fixed now, but I wouldn't. That was one of the main reasons that I ruled out a 6 when I recently purchased a car.
As far as I know Mazda6 is the best car in its class according to comparos, and as I heard even new Mondeo will be based on Mazda6 platform. Ford wanted Mazda to use Mondeo platform, but Mazda didn't agree. So Mazda basically developed new platform for the Ford and Volvo. As I know current small Volvo platform was designed in cooperation with Mitsu. Mazda also developed new line of advanced I4 engines for Ford. Basically whats happening - increasing integration of Ford, Mazda and Volvo. Mazda takes care of small platforms and I4s and Volvo of safety aspects and FWD big car platform.
BTW in Europe Mazda6 was a success. Toyota is struggling to sell Avensis there, even though it is the most reliable car there for many years. Toyota even redesigned it as a VW clone for that reason.
(no, the Enquirer does not count, lol.).
Mazda's are(were?) decent cars.
I do not know what happened to their sales. They have been off going on second year now.
Kia is almost beating them for 10th place on the sales scale.
(in fact, they did in 01).
It is perception of paying too much for certain vehicles.
RX-8 at say $23K loaded, not 31K, the public might buy more of them.
(there are a few sporty cars thatcan be had with V6 for under 20K,like Tiburon. That's it really for V6.you can also get a Neon SR4 for under 20K, turboed charged with 215hp and 245 torque).
0-60 in under 6 seconds for the Neon, and about 7 seconds for V6 Tiburon.
I'd ratherkeep the extra 10grand and buy something else. Even a Mini-CooperS turboed. 200HP.
I assure you though, the $12,000 purchase (LX w/ sunroof, alloys, and I think alarm) was true. I almost did it, but bought the Mazda6 instead. So, I lived through my friend and convinced him to take up that deal on the Protege, and he doesn't regret it at all. He was shopping for a used Accord at the time.
I sure hope Flat Rock has gotten its act together, as it's scheduled to build the next-generation Mustang.
I have seen XG350's for 15-17K( usually 23-26K carsfrom Hyundai) last month.(New ones comingout soon, slightly larger and reskinned).
They are trying to get rid of stock fast. Have seen lots of cas for saletrying to get rid of "slightly used"(tester models?)Sonatas with 3-10K miles, but "new" 2002's; still get warranty as if a 2003.
They were selling them for 13-15K, 13K for 4 cylinder, and 15,500 for LX(leather and V6).
Man, This is a buyers market.Unfortunately,I am not in the market to buy right now. Know my luck, interest rateswill be 11.9% again(like in 1990) and cars may sell MSRP.
Mazda is not going to get a third chance to gain market and mindshare in America.
There are only two Mazda dealers within 30 miles of me, of which one sells Subarus as well, and one is an "imports" dealer ("imports" in the name) selling Mazda, Subaru, VW, and Volvo.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Owner of Hara Arena near Dayton Ohio decided to retire(he was selling Mazda/Hyundai and Dodge).
One guy purchased the Dodge bldg, and another is selling Hyundai only.
Mazda stock was sold out.
There are now only 2 dealerships of Mazda's in a 100 mile radius of where I live.
The one has about 30 cars, the other has about 50.
(one in Ohio, one in Indiana)."
Actually, even though that franchise closed, a new Mazda franchise started east of Dayton, out in Beavercreek. Sales staff is very nice and they seem to be doing alright so far in sales. They better do alright, as they're constructing a very fancy building for the new franchise (they only have a temporary building right now).
In my opinion, all Mazda needs to do is find its niche, like Subaru did. "Zoom-zoom" and marketing its sportiness is a great first step. Maybe its true calling is to become the rotary company though? We'll see how the RX-8 does.
Mike
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have personally never seen a Mazda dealer in Canada that was paired up with another brand. I think that lends itself to a "fly-by-night" kind of impression that is very destructive to overall brand image.
Mazda in the US should think long and hard about buying back franchises and setting up more freestanding dealerships. That way Mazda is the main focus and not something that salespeople do off the corner of their desks.
Maybe Mazda dealers are more sparse in other parts of the country?
Seems that Voss rules that area, near Centerville-Miamisburg...Voss has : Chevy,Hyundai,Land Rover, Cadillac,BMW,Toyota and Honda..only Honda is not around Dayton, but up on I-75 closer to Piqua.
They have 8 brands they sell, forgot Dodge.
I just do not know: People know "zoom-zoom" commercials, but don't bother buying the product.
The Eclipse supposedly helped Mitsubishi regain sales, though thy aren't doing extremely well this year.
VW Bug boosted their sales for a few years.
Hyundai's 10/100,000 warranty helped get people into show rooms.
Nissan's ALtima and Z cars (and Renault's ownership) helped Nissan regain customers.
So, why has not ZOom ZOom helped?
Are the cars " bland"? DO some foreign car buyers say"Ford owns them,share platforms, I am not buying from them at all?
Is it "these prices are higher than Nissan, Suzuki,and a few othetrs, I ain't payin' that much for a new car?"(let's not do the 2002 model thing, all dealerships have been selling 2002's at firesale prices, even Cavaliers were 10,500 dollars loaded, for 02's, a few months ago). My mother-in-law said her Protege was nice, but she does not like it, it "handles funny", compared to her 92 Cavalier(the doors on that thing were like heavy balance weights.).
She did get hit in that car, and spun out in her 4x4 Tracker, and slid in the Mazda... so... blame the driver here.
SOme people can't face themselves in the miror and be honest.
Like I said, in 01. a fully loaded(no leather o sunroof) MSRP was a tad over 17K for a fully-loadedProtege... less expensvie than Honda or Toyota, but more than the Sentra, or Elantra, or even Focus, and others.
It was nice, but not 17K nice,to me. For 17k ack
thn , I could get a muidsized car, V6, leather, sunroof,etc...Sonata.
btw, in Northern VA alone, I can count 5 dealerships within 20 mile radius of me, and a few more if I expand another 10 miles further.
maybe that's why I've seen so many Mazdas running around here...
You think they'd mate Mazda with Ford dealerships as the two are related.
I don't think Mazda is asking for too much money for their products. The Neon has a bad reliability record. The Mini Cooper-thats German so parts are going to cost you more in the long run. The Altima goes up against the 6 not the RX-8. The Celica and RSX are different cars from the RX-8. The G35 Coupe, 350Z, and 04 Pontiac GTO will be the RX-8's main competition.
About Dealer Network I have dealers that are 5-35 minutes away in NJ. There's one 2 minutes down the road from me: Crystal Auto Mall on RT 22 which also sells Dodge and Toyota, Open Road Mazda on RT 1 in Edison, NJ(open Road also sells Honda's and BMW's), Maxon Mazda on RT 22 west(they also sell Hyundai's.) Yeah the Dealer Network needs to get better. I'll agree with tht point. Also 40 minutes away is Sansone Mazda in Woodbridge, NJ on RT 1(they also sell Nissan, Toyota, and Hyundai.) There's DCH Mazda in Milburn, NJ which also sells Volkswagon's.
These are within a max 30min drive of me in Toronto:
Dufferin Mazda
Avante Mazda of Toronto
Avante Mazda of Richmond Hill
Westside Mazda
Gyro Mazda
Scarboro Mazda
Morningside Mazda
Ontario Mazda
Prima Mazda
Erin Mills Mazda
Mazda of Brampton
There are a few more dealers, but farther (30+mins).
Dinu
I wonder, if Imports were closer to my town, would they outsell the other domestics?
I do see Altimas,Camry,Accord, Civic, Hyundai, these are the ones I see,so some people must venture to Dayton or nearby(35-65 miles away..closest foreign car dealerships are Hyundai at 35 miles, Toyota at 40, then Honda at 40 miles..and Mitsu at 37, in Indiana).
One dealership ahs Suzuki's for 5 years, and closed it down, they also sold Chevy's there..I went to look at an Aerio last year, for FMI(for my information) and the salesman was in the mood of "I could care less" about Suzuki. They had 2 salesmen and 15 cars, if that many.(this was sort of in the country, in a town of 15,000).
I went back recently and the place was closed down.
One saleman asked me if he could help, I asked about Suzuki, and he said they couldn't sell the cars(???? DIDN't Want to try to sell them?).
After that closed, they have a rent a car center and are renting out their old lineup of suzukis.
And the suzuki part was turned into Chevy)expanded showroom).
I called one guy last year, my mother in law wanted to try to sell her Protege locally(she kept it, but rarely drives it) and they are like not an auto auction, but get newer 2-3 year old cars, fix them up, and sell them.
They had a VW bug on the lot(this place is usually domestics only) and they sold it in 2 weeks. I called the guy and asked if they'd buy a Protege. He asked"what maker is it?" I said Mazda, and he said" we don't buy those type of cars". I asked what do you mean, you had a VW on your lot. Are your referring to we don't buy foreign cars? He said I got to go and hung up.
These guys act like you're a traitor if you buy any car other than domestic(just a label these days,really, in most cases).
I just think people here are either "buy USA only for generations", or just too lazy to drive 1 hour to buy a foreign make.
(my mother in law complained when she drove 35 miles to get Mazda tuned up, once every 3 years. Geez).
I am DAV, and have been everywhere, and still am bemused by these people. It is like they never travel out of their own county or something.
They need to get out more and discover that there are other people,opinions out there, not just my way or the hwy.
What makes me laugh is thatFord owners still blast Chevy, and visa versa, sometimes, but as soon a s a "foreign car" comes into the discussion, they "join forces" and say"why don't you buy American?"\
do they also not look too kindly upon non-'American' looking people (Asian, Arabic, Latino, etc.)?
The Mazda dealer is Mazda Lincoln Mercury and in my one experience with them is a high pressure place. Just what I need - some clown who thinks I'm going to part with major money just to get him to let up on the pressure. Grrrr. This does make for a problem if I were in the market right now in that I'd want to look at a 6 but would have to travel 40 miles or better to hit a decent dealership.
Dinu
-Jason
Plus, other manufacturers like Ford GM Toyota Nissan etc do compete there. The only one I can think of offhand that they do not have is Subaru, which is a small-sales manufacturer anyway.
If we knew what the key was to Mazda doing so well in Canada, perhaps we could import it to the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota and Nissan merely took advantage of some government restrictions after the war, I am not suggesting they did anything unlawful.
This is all water under the bridge anyway, I was just hot under the collar from SIENNA's comments.
Anyway, I apologize for the misinformation...hopefully we all take each other's facts with a grain of salt anyway, and do some independent research.
Thanks Fezo...