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OB XT or Legacy GT - Again my vote (we bought) the GT Limited. I think you will be pleased with either that best fills your needs and or wants.
This time, I drove a GT Ltd 5MT sedan with the optional short throw shifter w/Momo knob. I personally did not care for the short throw shifter as it looked out of proportion to the dash like some overgrown metallic mushroom. While the throws were definitely shorter, I didn't like the added effort. Not for me, thanks.
Back to the engine. The 5MT definitely feels solid off the line. Power is right there and helped me to cut across three lanes on the road outside of the dealership to get onto the freeway on ramp. Down and upshifting on the freeway was smooth thanks to the improved flywheel and it's easy to keep drivetrain shock to a minimum. With the 5MT I could really get a feel for this fantastic engine. It just pulls so linearly it makes it feel like a bigger displacement NA engine. Pure fun.
Back to the dealership, I get into a 5EAT Ltd Wagon. Trying to cut across the same road wasn't as much fun. The wagon moves along leisurely until the RPMs hit around 2500-3000 and then things take off. I drove the exact same course as with the sedan.
Merging onto freeway traffic requires some pre-planning as you need to wait for the turbo to completely spool up. Once things got moving, the shifting using the steering wheel buttons seemed quick enough. What I think subtracts from the 5EAT feel of "quickness" is the fact that there is so little drivetrain shock. You'll thumb the button and need to do a double take to see that it had in fact downshifted.
While smoothness is good, the tranny does take away from feeling in control with the engine. I hated to think of it, but I felt that my wife's Jetta VR6 automatic seemed to have better throttle response. It's not as powerful, but tap the throttle and the car moves forward.
So, I'm seriously considering doing an about-face and having the dealer change my order for a 5MT. I really want VTD and I also wanted the flexibility of a wife-friendly car, but I'm just not getting the warm fuzzies from Sportshift. I think I'm living a true need-desire dilemma here!
Ken
Tony T
Strikes me that the Sportshift, when left to operate on its own, makes the car MUCH quicker. My 13 year old, who desperately wanted me to buy the OB XT Ltd MT, thinks this almost makes the VDC worthwhile. Are there any limitations on the use of the Sportshift - the manual doesn't offer much information?
Coincidentally, I just read in Autoweek that you are 7 (or was it 8?) times more likely to get in a collision in a skid if you do not have stability control. So know that and be happier than Woody Allen. ;-)
Thomas: the WRX is the performance bargain, or an F-XT if you need a little more space. I've seen 2004s dip below $23k, and those are plenty of fun.
I just double-checked something - our coupon was in my brother's name. He just bought a 2004 Legacy, so the name must've been fresh in their database. My wife has a 2002 Legacy and did *not* get the coupon. I registered at need-desire and I didn't get one, either.
Ken: keep in mind the wagon is a bit heavier. You should have driven a manual wagon and an auto sedan! Time to go back again...LOL!
I'll be in the same position when I'm shopping, though. I think on an F-XT I'd go with the manual, but with the Legacy GT I'd go for the VTD and the extra ratio plus the Sportshift buttons.
I can't believe I'm even saying that. But - in my case I have two cars and the other is a manual.
-juice
Bob
On a MT car, where there is a direct mechanical connection between the wheels and the engine, the resistance of the road loads up the engine which gets the exhaust flow going and spins up the turbo. On an AT car, the resistance of the road gets alleviated due to slippage in the torque converter. Thus, the engine sees less load, the exhaust flow is not as strong, and the turbo spools less.
You can study this effect on a MT car, at least the extremes of the effect. Put it in idle and rev the engine, and the turbo gauge barely moves. No load on the engine in that case equals low boost. Now, put the car in 1st with the parking brake on. Gently rev the motor as you let the clutch out, and the boost will rise dramatically. The load on the engine produces a much stronger exhaust flow. The auto transmission car is somewhere in between these two extremes.
So, if you want to extract all the fun out of that motor, MT is the only way to go. If you want a more livable solution and can sacrifice some power go with AT. The tradeoffs are simple!
Craig
The auto is merely stupid-fast.
;-)
-juice
2nd - New Auto, thus the automatic has yet to adjust to your driving characteristics. So it seems sluggish. Once broken in, the car should seem more lively. Noticed this testdriving auto WRXs. One new, the other had been on the lot a while, and driven quite a bit. The new one seemed lethargic, the one that was driven took off like a bat out of hell!!!
One final note - from the link mentioned in post
(2273) ConsumerGuide report by rellom
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/- 38236
the paragraph at the bottom states:
News: You might also look for a sportier Legacy sedan and/or wagon--with perhaps some 300 hp--to build on the sales-boosting image of Subaru's youth-favored Impreza WRX and STi models. Though strictly our guess, these hot Legacys are easily doable if Subaru wishes, though they probably wouldn't arrive until 2006 or '07.
Bob
-juice
Bob
-juice
- I would think the H6 qualifies, no?
No, not at all. The 3.0 engine is tuned as a high-revving engine, and not a stump-pulling torquer. I'm talking about an engine of 3.5 (at least) and tuned with a flat, even powerband. I'm sure Mike would say nothing under 5.0L would qualify, however.
Bob
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/H%20engine
the "H" designation on the subaru engines is a misnomer. An "H" engine is two flat engines one on top of the other using the same crankshaft. The subaru engines should be considered flat fours or flat sixes but not H's.
Eric
Bob
I didn't know the difference between H config engines and flat boxers until now.
Interestingly, the article mentions Saab using the H designation on one of their engines when it was in fact an in-line 4. Go figure...
Eric
-juice
I did not think the turbo 2.5 offered any gains in fuel economy over a larger displacement engine. It gets 19/24 with the automatic. In comparison, both the BMW 745Li and Mercedes S430 get 18/26 mpg. They are huge with large V-8 engines and weigh well over 1,000 lbs more than the Subaru.
To be sure the Subaru turbo is fast, and fun to drive, but I don't think efficient is part of the deal.
I am interested in the new 2005 wagon with a manual tranny that gets 23/30 mpg, which is a nice improvement from last year. For me the base engine has plenty of oomph. Now if the turbo came with no penalty in efficiency, then that might change my mind.
Craig: Thanks for the detailed write up. That makes perfect sense.
Bob: I may try a H6 just for comparison. But I'm fairly certain that I want the GT trim this time around. If I do get a H6, I would probably go whole hog and get the VDC wagon, though.
juice: I've driven a 5EAT sedan too and it felt about the same.
What to do... What to do...
Ken
I just came back from my test drive of the '05 OB 2.5i, and in the manual transmission it offers a sporting, peppy ride. Better yet, my wife loved it (fortunately, she is an MT person too).
For reasons that the more technically inclined folk on this site might be able to explain, the gearing in 4th is significantly better than in the '04 Forester that I drove (the Forester kept wanting to go into 5th, but once there, did not have enough torque to take on the hills around here).
The interior is very nicely done (we looked at the limited), though the door handle is in a clumsy spot.
She's ready to sign; I want to try the XT before deciding.
Zman
And to match the Subaru's performance you'd probably have to give AMG a call...
It's the gearing, not the engine itself, that choses performance over economy on the GT.
Zman: could be aerodynamics coming into play. Forester is boxy and Legacy is svelte. My Forester is more fuel efficient at slower speeds, for instance.
-juice
Bob
Could well be the aerodynamics. I just wondered if something else happened (after all, the EPA estimates for mpg changed on almost all the '05 as compared to the '04).
Zman
They said it was the throttle-by-wire re-programmed.
I hope it's more linear. My wife's 2002 Legacy has a very non-linear throttle, it's all or nothing. Much harder to drive smoothly than my Forester.
I should go sample one.
I also heard the '05 Forester gets more ground clearance?
-juice
Yeah, I am considering that too. If I want the ultimate family cruiser right now, the VDC fits the best. But unfortunatley, that's only part of what I'm shopping for -- I wanted a fun yet pratical daily commuter for me.
But it wouldn't hurt to try.
Ken
I am just wondering if anyone from Canada got their new legacy under MSRP. If so, what's the model and by how much.
I am currently negotiating with my dealer now, can't wait to get it over with.
Thanks.
In other words, it is the large-manufacturer's game right now. Toyota and Honda have the revenue for their R&D that Subaru just does not have. Unless GM helps out.
I believe Ford used Toyota's technology to build a hybrid Escape. GM is supposed to come out with a hybrid truck, but not sure who's technology they will use (if it is not their own).
Honda's technology is simple while Toyota's system is extremely complex.
FYI
Toyota is planning on going hog wild with the Hybrid technology in the next few years.
- The Hybrid RX400 and Highlander are comming out later this year (more power than earlier models)
- A Hybrid sports car to replace the MR2 is comming out around 2008, with an approximate 300hp.
- A new Lexus sports division (to compete with AMG) will be comming out with Hybrid sports versions of the LS and GS versions (the GS producing approximately 479 hp).
All per Car and Driver
luck11 "Subaru Crew: Canadian Owners" May 25, 2004 3:28pm
shizumaat picked up an XT in your neck of the woods (somewhat) for $900 under MSRP (which, IMHO, is very good considering models were just released here), but have not heard any other reports to date. Unfortunately, we don't have same purchasing power as as customers in the US. Therefore, if you can purchase for 2-3% over invoice, you have paid a fair price. But its too early.....demand is high. In this case, as with anything new on the market, the early bird gets the worm, but pays dearly for it. If you can wait a few months, you'll be able to negotiate a better deal. I waited 'till fall for my 00 OB and negotiated a very fair deal. Plan to do the same for my when I trade up to an 05.
Thanks!
All these awesome reviews, commentaries, and purchases- make me want to drive away in one RIGHT NOW!!
~alpha
PS- A while back someone posted that the Legacy Turbo is rated at 19/24.... I thought it was 19/25.... not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless.
~alpha
Anyway , it was back to the local dealer to take a LL Bean out for a test drive. Unfortunatley, they had no VDCs on the lot. This was my first time in a 05 Outback and the higher ground clearnce is pretty evident. The interior with the wood inlay steering wheel has a more country club feel to it. Nicely done with the exception of the Momo AT shift knob. It looks *completely* out of place.
The 5EAT with H6 does tip-in a bit stronger than with the 2.5T. That comes as no surprise as the extra 0.5L of displacement are right there. However, acceleration afterwards is unrushed and consistent all the way to redline. Overall it's a great package for composed driving, but it's not a thrilling ride.
A few conering moves and the longer travel suspension makes itself noticed. There is quite a bit more body lean in the LL Bean, something I'm accustomed to with the Forester. Steering feels nicely weighted and the vehicle likes to track very straight.
Overall it was a nice and polished ride, but it's not what I was looking for.
After the drive, the salesperson offers a spin in a GT wagon, 5EAT. Sure, why not and we're off again.
I don't know what it was this time, but the GT 5EAT felt stronger. When coming off a start, the pause until the rush of power hit seemed shorter and the engine/tranny overall more responsive. I was having fun!
Could this be the same combination I had driven before? I know for a fact that I was driving a different vehicle than my previous test drive. Could there be a big vehicle-to-vehicle variation? Or was it simply the contrast after coming off the LL Bean model?
The previous GT 5EAT I drove already had 168 miles on it and was obviously PDIed. The one I drove this afternoon was not fully PDIed (check engine light was on) and only had 28 miles so I don't think it could have been an issue of how broken in the tranny was. Maybe the previous model was filled with 87 octane gas?
Anyway, I'm thinking I should sample a few more 5EATs before jumping to the 5MT camp. My dealer informed me that the Subaru had an early order cut off this month (for August delivery) so if I change my configuration, I'm looking at a September delivery now. Otherwise, I still have a 5EAT GT arriving in a few more weeks!
Ken
I notice that Swampy allocated a new fence club just for you (#2336). Since I don't have one to myself, I wonder if I could park there just for a while, if you don't mind (oh, and my wife, too--pretty demanding aren't we?).
Here's the scoop:
1. We have finally decided on the '05 OB MT. That's progress, considering we've been at this for almost a year (but, boy, I admit it's a lot of fun! And waiting for the '05 to come out was really worth it).
2. Were going for the Limited package. I want leather and my wife wants the moonroof. We both want the upgraded audio system. So, that part of the puzzle has worked out, too.
3. Atlantic Blue Pearl over Granite Grey Opal (who comes up with these color names?)
4. Ooops! Here's the rub: 2.5i (the wife's choice). 2.5t (guess whose choice that is?) Anyone care to weigh in or vote on this issue? I have not driven the OB-XT, and they are hard to find still, especially in the MT, but I loved my test drive of the F-XT, and I'm expecting more or less similar results with the OB-XT.
Hmmm....looks like we've got some work still to do, but my dealer said the same thing about allocations. It may be wisest just to wait until September, and pull it off then. Plus, there might be a touch more wiggle room then, and maybe gas prices will be more settled as well.
Zman
p.s. we're willing to pay rent.
Thanks
John
Does anyone know where the turbo sits in the leg/ob? It has to be close to the intercooler but that is right above the trans/diff/diff.
In the wrx the left headers come over to the right and join the right ones before going to the turbo on the top right of the trans/center/front diff. not equal length.
Don
It's making it difficult to keep up with Ken's tranny dilemma. :-)
Any tips??
-Dennis
GregB
Whatever you ultimately end up with, I think you will then know deep down that you made the right decision.
Bob
btw, you know you really want the MT.....
i am also amazed at how strong some of our members are here. i cant visit a dealership unless i know i am buying a car.
Ken: maybe that one had been on a few more test drives, and driven hard?
Bottom line? Test drive YOUR car before you take delivery. If you feel it's hesitating, try another one. It's best if you're slightly flexible on color and options.
-juice
Yes, I think the key is to test drive and test drive until I'm sure. The only problem is that the dealership I'm buying from is far away and I've overextended my welcome at the local locations. :-)
juice: Driven harder, maybe, but it had the least number of miles out of all the 5EAT wagons I've driven; hence the discrepancy.
Ken