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Comments
2005 Prius Package AM ( VSC, All the airbags ) and mats
Real world estimate for 5 years ownership. and..45000 Mi/yr
Purchase $22600
less:
..resale....( 2000 )
Net..........$20600
Plus:
Taxes.........670
DMV (x 5)....250
Ins (x 5)......3000
Oil/filt ......Free for life
Tires (x4).... 1800
Fuel:...........9000
(4000 gal x 2.25)
Unforeseen Maint? .. 1000
Total cost to own $36320 +/- $500
or about $0.16 / mi
You seem to have come up with a much better TCO than Edmund's. They are saying $.54 per mile. That is for 15k miles per year for 5 years. If you are saying 45k miles per year for 5 years with the car still worth $20,600 I gotta call time out. If a Prius with 225,000 miles is worth $5k I would be real surprised. Also averaging 56 MPG for 225k miles is very much wishful thinking. Last If you can get by with only $1000 in unforeseen maintenance over 225k miles you will be extremely lucky.
I believe that you misread it, Gary.
The $20600 was the expensed part after $2000 resale/tradein
Fuel: I've had it now for 6 weeks and used ~91 gal.
(260 weeks/6 ) x 91 gal = total usage ~4000 gal @ 49 mpg now roughly.
Looking at the numbers again I probably should use ~4500 gal for 225000 mi assuming similar values with no improvement or deterioration over time. Good pt. Fuel $10200 iso $9000
There isnt much else I've had to do to my other Camry's. Strut caps once when the lot was under repair; air filters?; I've never replace brakes in 10 yrs since I'm almost always driving and never stopping. The Prius is gentle on brakes anyway. But I'll grant maybe $2000 unforeseen even though I've never spent this much on any ICE Camry.
So +$1200 for fuel
and +$1000 for reserve ( or future downpayment )
Total: $38520 +/- $500 or ~$0.17/mi
PS: edmunds also has a cost of money factor in their equation, I dont. It's either interest or lost opportunity.
I will agree that paying interest is money down the toilet. I also find Edmund's about double on insurance. I hope your Prius gives you that good of service. You know me the skeptic. I can tell you that if I had to drive 45k miles in a year I would be looking harder at the hybrids.
Oh yeah! I get it at 45,000 miles per year the Prius is cost effective.
Then there is time-value-of-money
And how many dealerships besides yours give FREE oil/Filter per life ?
$600 per year insurance with 100,000/300,000 and a 1 million umbrella or the minimum/minimum ?
4,000 gallons at 5 years at 45,000 miles per year= 225,000 totl miles = average of 56.25 miles per gallon. Most people don't have near that high of lifetime average.
Thanks for you input. Have you ever read the book "How to Lie with Statistics?"
MidCow
Nowhere did I extrapolate this to any other vehicle. It was in response to another poster in another forum to show why my decision made sense.
Several times here and in other forums I've mentioned that I've driven 30000-50000 m/y for the last 20 years. My commute for the last 7 years is 40000 plus 'personal driving' so it runs to ~ 45000 annually. I've got three clients who drive even more than me in the 50K-80K range and few just less in the 30K range.
$1800 annual insurance for two of us with 3 late model vehicles: equals... equals ... ~ $600 /veh x 5 yrs.
Call our store: Anyone who buys a new vehicle gets oil/filters free for life of the vehicle, plus free VA state inspections for life of the vehicle and a lifetime warranty on the engine!!! at no cost to the buyer. It's allover our ads in Hampton Roads.
With Gary's input I did recalculate the fuel to 4500 gal or $10200.
I also mentioned the cost of money was a factor, but it varies by person; great credit.. bad credit.. cash buyer... It has nothing to do with the vehicle though, it's the same for every $22600 purchase.
So rather than go off half cocked and imply that I'm a liar maybe you should refresh your 1st grade skills...
.. or just be more polite.
"Ok, MidCow back to 1st Grade when they were teaching reading. ... So rather than go off half cocked and imply that I'm a liar maybe you should refresh your 1st grade skills...
.. or just be more polite. "
That was pretty much of a slam at me.
I was disaagreeing with you assumptions on TCO, I have never said anything unpolite to you, I just don't agree with a lot of the data and opinions you present.
And in my first grade reading, nowhere did you imply your post was a response to someone else's question. Therefore, when you said "True TCO" you imply that it is empirical and applies to all Prius TCO and that Edmund's Prius TCO is wrong. I am not sure how one could come to any other conclusion, councillor.
I hope that your unplanned maintenance for 225,000 miles is only $1,000.
Enjoy you low TCO Prius,
MidCow
Fred Haas, Champion, and Sterling McCall seem to be coming , around off MSRP slightly, $500.
Good Luck,
I wish the Prius would have offered a manual shift.
Standards Only,
MidCow
See the 2007 Toyota Camry from the 2006 Detroit Auto Show:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=108838
The 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid uses an electric motor along with a 2.4-liter, four-cylinder engine. It offers 192 horsepower (as much as the current 3.0-liter V6 model), and can accelerate from zero to 60 in less than 9 seconds. It also delivers 43 city/37 highway mpg.
Cheers,
MidCow
brutus7
Again, I would probably have gotten a Prius if it had at least the performance of the upcoming 2007 Hybrid Camry ( 0-60 in less than 9 seconds) and had a manual shift.
I really like the looks and features of the Prius, especailly the hatchback. Could do without the samrtcard though. The negatives: low performance, low handling, and non manual shift. There should be a Prius GT version rated at 43/37 mpg , like the 2007 Camry Hybrid.
Cheers,
MidCow
'There should be a Prius GT version rated at 43/37 mpg , like the 2007 Camry Hybrid.'
"Unfortunately there is not a market for that."
No big R&D and there would be a whole lot more people interested!!!
I agree there are just not that many people enamoured with manual shift, especially as multi-speed and infinite speed automatics have gotten the mpg and perfromance of autos equal and in a few cases better than manuals.
Please don't take my shifter away from my cold dead hands!,
MidCow
Sorry you missed the point of my thread. My point was that more pople would be interested in the Prius if it wasn' such a slug in perfromance, 0-60 mph in 10.5-11.3 seconds is very,very slow. The point was that the 2007 Camry Hybrid with mileage 43/37 will have reasonable performance at 060 in less than 9 seconds. My point again was that this is the perfomance target Prius should have chosen. The Prius GT was a suggestion that maybe they could still make a perfomance model that would get 0-60 mph is a simliar time as the 2007 Camry Hybrid. I am not sure how a Mustang ever crept into the picture.
My preference is for manual transmissions; that is what I have always driven and will always drive. However, relaibility is very high on my list and I normally only look at the Acura/Honda and Toyota/Lexus car lines.
Again sorry you got confused and suggested driving a Mustang. The orginal 1964 1/2 Mustang 289 was good in its day, but hey that was over 40 years ago. Just becuase Ford is introducing a new 475hp low cost ( in the low $40K) Shebly GT500 doesn't mean Ford or Mustang has or ever will solve their relaibility and customer service delima.
" I'd rather drive a Mustang than ..." LOL
Double Sixes,
MidCow
"First off 0-60 in 10 seconds is not slow. " you are right it is not slow,but very slow!!
The 2007 Hybrid Camry has good performance the Prius does not!.
American cars are terrible and Buick is the worst!. The average age of Buick drivers is 84. Buick only made two good cars the 1965 Garnd Sport Rivera and the 1987 Grand National. Therefore last good Buick was built almost 20 years ago. I am old, but I will never be old and decrepet enough to drive a Buick. The Honda is 10, no 100 times the car a Buick is. And you are only looking at JD Powers initial reliability, not long term.
I like the Prius concept and features. Hopefully, Toyota will change to a model closer to the Lexus 400h or the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid.
Oh yeah I wnet to a Ford delaer to look at the Mustangs GT. Well they told me it wasn't part of their famly and they would give me one for only $5,000 over MSRP. I laughed so hard I almost had a hernia. Ford customer relations sucks.
Cheer,
MidCow
Had to buy HI package although I did not want upgraded audio. Apparently only 3 options are available according to the dealer (and per toyota.com/prius)
3150 tax credit is only an estimate at this time. Right ?
I see some mentions of "upto 3400". But per a table I found on another site, Prius gets maximum (3150). Anyone knows where this 3400 comes from ?
If the H3 drivier can't afford or doesn't want the mileage penalty of a H2 or H1 then at least he has a big car for a slow 0-60 mph time. Similar with the TDI Jetta driver and Prius drivier, mileage is their most important goal. But in these two very few examples, the driver knows the performance limitations as has to drive accordingly. Even having said that, most of the time there is no emergency power reserve and in certain road conditions slow acceleration is just down-right dangerous!.
I particpate on this forum thread not for the pedestrian value or to provide pedestrian benefit, but more for the long term design issues of the next Prius. Toyota monitors and listens to input from major car forums such as Edmunds. Don't be suprised if the changes you see in the next generation of Priuses have some substinance that was derived from this and other Edmunds forums.
Cheers,
MidCow
P.S.- Yes, I think the Prius is a very good car, much better than any Ford, it just has some current limitations that I choose not to engage.
I understand now that there is some guidance on the website but the previous estimated info is approximately correct. There are procecdures now that each manufacturer has to do to 'register' a VIN with the IRS inorder to qualify that VIN for the credit.
The credit is based on a particular vehicle and it's efficiency in comparison to the average of it's class of vehicles in 2002.
$3400 is the arbitrary MAX credit and each vehicle gets a % of that MAX. The Prius gets a relatively larger credit than say the Civic because it's classed as a midsize vehicle and the Civic a Compact vehicle. Thus for example, if the Prius' EPA average is 55 mpg and the typical midsized vehicle is 28.5 mpg then the increased efficiency is ~26.5/28.5 or about 93% of the tax credit.
OTOH the Civic is being compared to compact vehicle which normally have average FE ratings higher, in the 35-36 mpg range.
The AMT will possibly cancel out the entire credit for some buyers.
Even the cheapest cars you rent have normal acceleration in the 0-60 mph 8-9 second range. You cannot rent a car as slow as a Prius, unless maybe you find a Prius at TRAC.
Never said I jack rabbit. That is only the conclusion you jumped too. As well as my gas bill or my summer cooling bill.
Again , my point and I will make it slowly again (lat time):
Toyota 2007 Camry Hybrid = 0-60 in less than 9 seconds acceptable performance
Prius = 0-60 in 10.5 seconds not acceptable performance.
A manual shifting man,
MidCow
P.S.- There are a lot of 2006 Priuses available in Houston. The dealers are now calling me back offering deals. $500 off starting point.
P.S.S- Yes in Houston it is too humid and almost all of the 4.4 million people living here drive! Try rush hour traffic every day!!
WARNING: DRIVING THIS
CAR IN HOUSTON IS
DANGEROUS AND COULD
RESULT IN SERIOUS
INJURY OR DEATH
After I had my non-hybrid car detailed, I ended up with a whole slew of electrical/electronic problems. The problems were triggered by water condensation.
Since hybrid vehilces are highly dependent on electrical/electronic technology, I was just wondering if any hybrid owners encountered similar condensation problems when their vehicles were exposed to moisture?
Thanks
Dewey
The current Prius is certainly no rocket. It is quick though, think point guard vs long-legged shooting forward. The TCH should be something else.
Prius acceleration? I was in 4c Camry's since 1990. The last 400,000 miles have been in the 1994 - 2000 models with the 2.2L 136 hp engine. It was not a rocket either but over 4 Million buyers and rebuyers have been using this powertrain since 1992 with no complaints.
The current Prius is quicker and has similar acceleration 0-60 as the past 2.2L Camry's. In today's mega hp/acceleration race 11 secs is slow. But most drivers never notice it or need it. Enthusiasts do. But if you tell a current 1997 or 2000 4c Camry owner that the 2006 Prius is just as fast as their current vehicle, and it is .. they're done.
Anyone who needs ( or prefers ) V6 power certainly has a new attractive option in the TCH.
"But if you tell a current 1997 or 2000 4c Camry owner that the 2006 Prius is just as fast as their current vehicle, and it is .. they're done."
From unbiased, objective source:
Consumer Guide® Road Test Ratings
Acceleration
LE, 4-cyl man. LE, V6 auto. XLE, 4-cyl auto. SE w/nav. sys., V6 Class Average
4 6 4 7 5.6
Most Camrys sold are 4-cyl models. Test LE with previous 4-speed automatic transmission ran a class-competitive 9.2 sec 0-60--adequate for most situations; expect similar with 5-speed automatic. Also unable yet to time 3.0 V6, but expect around 8 sec 0-60. Test 3.3 V6 SE clocked a lively 7.0 sec.
The 4-speed automatic Camry was faster than the Prius at 0-60 mph in 9.2 seconds. 5-speed was not measured in Auto Consumer Guide, but with a wide spread of gears it should be slightly faster 8.9-9.0 seconds extimate.
Therefore one can conclude that Prius is not as fast as a current 4c auto Camry.
The only car in the entire Toyota vehicle line that is slower than the Prius is the auto Echo, even the manual Echo and all SUVs are faster.
Yes, 20 years ago 11-12 seconds was adequate accleration, but times have changed an there is no longer a government imposed 55 mph highway speed limit. There are many more cars, that are much faster, and drive much faster. Big trucks are driven by professional drivers and typically are highway driven at a fairly constant highway speed. When they do need to enter or exit a freeway most other drivers genrally see them and if they don't the semi is big enough that it usually is not seriously damaged. Having said all that there are still a lot of semi wrecks in Houston.
If you want to take you chances with a slow vehicle, the choice is yours. It just may not be the most prudent or safest choice. That doesn't imply either, that people with more powerful vehicles drive irresponsibly just because they have more power that fordforme keeps trying to imply. And many of those drivers while not flooring it, probably acclerate much faster than they realize.
I think Prius owners need to unite now that the Echo is going to disappear and all put the bumper sticker on the car "The Slowest and Greenest Toyota" or maybe just offer one color for Prius a bright Lime Green. LOL
YMMV but I shift,
MidCow
PS.- Keep on going Toyota you have at least one Ford enthusiast convert
P.S.S.- With drive by wire control and multiple powerplants ( hybrid) engageable , the expression "floor it" seems pretty trite. Maybe it should be "All Powersources Fully Activated" of APFA for shot.
Edmunds Used Cars, 2000 Camry LE, specs.
Acceleration 0-60: 11.1 sec
This matches my own experience as well so it 'feels' correct after 400000 mi in them. Now driving a Prius, to me they're essentially the same but the Prius seems quicker due to the electric motor torque boost on demand.
With a different commute I likely would trade in the Prius next summer in favor of the TCH. However with 90% of the commute at 58-62 mph on a rural highway, efficiency is paramount, so Prius it is for the present. It's why there are different models.
I put 380 miles on my GMC Sierra yesterday. All on Interstate 15. Most of the time I stayed under 75 MPH trying to get good highway mileage. Cruising along at 75 MPH I was passed not by one but by two Prius IIs. So they will go over the speed limit. I do wonder what kind of mileage they get. I hope they were not complaining about getting under EPA estimates.
GMC Hybrid got 18.87 MPG calculated at fill-up. Trip computer said 18.2 MPG.
The auto engineers and those knowledgeable in aerodynamics can explain the physical reasons and formulae better than I can.
I think they were hitting 80-85 MPH. I tried driving 65 MPH and the computer said 20 MPG. I felt I was holding up traffic and went up to 70-75 MPH. That is a very busy highway. We were going against the heavy traffic both ways and it was still very crowded in the 75-85 MPH direction. Our first 20 miles heading North was stop and go then smooth sailing most of the way to Barstow.
I find our Prius seems to loaf along up to about 85 or so. Long hills are no problem and even at these speeds there is enough reserve to accelerate while going up hill.
Can't complain about mpg. I have no doubt it would give EPA highway or better mpg if driven at the speed limit, but safety concerns due to the high volume of much faster traffic doesn't permit this much of the time.
Local driving is where the mpg is way below EPA numbers. Even using the EV override (staying EV up to 34 mph) and coasting when possible results in the low 40 mpg range at best.