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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
click on the various links to see the details and the explanations. I found it intriguing.
Can you imagine that some people pay over $50000 for other vehicles too.. sheesh.. "
Gee, wonder what vehicles you mean? Are there actually $50,000+ vehicles that compete with the Prius? Little butt-ugly commute cars for 50 large? Or do you mean 8 passenger 4WD vehicles that can tow a second home? Sorry spiderman, no comparison.
I'd say you'd pretty well need your noggin examined to pay over $33000 for a commute car like the Prius. How long to recoup the $16000 in gas? ANd that's to say nothing of the relative quickness and handling and fun to drive factor of the Focus compared to the Prius. But, as PT Barnum said, there's one born everyday ain't there?
But some people want to.. go figure.
Do u understand that there are families who need more than a Prius? Workers and business owners who need more than a sedan? Does one size (your precious Prius) really fit all? Why don't you walk a mile in the shoes of someone who needs a 4WD truck? Why I'm sure her shoes will fit your feet.
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I wouldnt do it but someone ( many ) will. I was just using your example of the Focus as a valid starting point to show that all choices are correct, no matter what they are.
You sure are touchy about the Prius...
Here is a good question from another forum. Would you knowingly pay $5000 over sticker for a Soltice to get one right now? Some people are doing just that. Is it wrong for the dealer to ask for it? It is wrong for the buyer to step up and pay it?
No I would not. I would not pay MSRP for any car or truck on the planet. There is a difference between gouging a Sports car and a hybrid like the Prius or HCH. The two hybrids are designed to be "Green" and good for the betterment of the environment. I consider gouging on the hybrids like stealing money from the offering plate in church.
Many that buy the Prius do it for the good of our environment. Some may do it for vain glory, but it is still good for all of us that they drive the Prius or HCH. To take advantage of their desire to be good citizens is morally wrong IMO. Totally different than gouging a fancy car or any gadget sold for pure pleasure.
But.. if one buyer falls in love and says 'It's me and I will pay the $10K, I want it now!!!' It's that buyer's choice. I think some of this is happening with Prius buyers in certain areas now, from your reports. It is their choice. But I think you, if you were a buyer :surprise: , are smart to hold off.
PS
I have no problem with the big markup on those fancy cars. The local Dodge dealer had two Vipers with $10k added. I figured anyone with the money to waste on one would not care that it was being gouged.
Actually they did both. They were absolutely shocked at the surge from the very outset. As I mentioned in a post a day or two ago, the initial build schedule was 35000 units ( see comment below ) annually. This was 3000 units a month from July '03 to Jan '04 - launch was Oct '03. By Jan '04 the entire 35000 units for the US were sold. The line producing Prius was also producing Camry's and Crowns at about 33% each. In Feb '04 it was announced that production would go up to an annual rate of 70000 units beginning with July '04 production ( see below ). Later in '04 it was announced that production on that line would be dedicated soley to the Prius at a monthly rate of 9000 units for 2005 or about 100000 annually which is what they shipped.
Here is a key difference between Toyota and Detroit. Toyota's production system is designed to ship exactly what they will sell and nothing more. Over supply should never exist. If we sell one we get one; sell three we get three; if we have 6 and sell 3 we get none! and none again until the other 3 are sold. Dealers that sell get replacement vehicles, dealers that are stagnant get less or none. When model years switch over they expect that we will sell the last '05 on the day before the new '06 arrives. It often happens. However outside forces screw this up sometimes, Katrina, oil price spike, high interest rates.
It's this 'pull' system that Detroit cant get under control. It goes all the way through the production process as well. If we sell ( pull ) one Prius they build and order parts ( pull ) for exactly one Prius.
Comment from above:
I was a sole supplier to the automakers for 15+ years. It was at Ford and Chrysler mainly where I had a number of key parts, exterior panels, on several vehicles. This 'pull' discussion came up all the time. Part of the problem with ramping up production as you suggested is that the build schedule goes out 9 months, it's revised at 6 mo's, then again at 3 mo's, then at 30 days it's final and every week/day it's put into effect. As a basic steel supplier I needed a minimum of 6 months to react to any significant change.
A shift of +/- 10% was within our onhand inventory. +/- 20% was a disaster; a 100% increase was impossible within a 6 month window. Another 50% increase on top of that within 4 more months was unthinkable. Now multiply this by 500 suppliers. Then add volume for the HH and 400h and soon the Camry and other Lexus models. The demand has outstripped the ability of the suppliers to build components.
Oh, I understand ( cannot verify ) that the tsunami wiped out Toyota's supplier of Navigation systems.
I hope they don't get them from New Orleans. I understand a storm just messed up the rebuilt airport.
I guess we shall see if the supply of Prius keeps up with demand this year. I cannot imagine it would take 3 years to catch up with demand.
I have been looking the car since mid Dec 2005. I did not have to pay for any deposit for putting my name on the waiting list, but surprisingly another dealer called me and told me that he had the car I was looking for. I had talked to this second dealer earlier but I had declined to pay the deposit. I was not expecting call from this second dealer.
Anyway, I have a new toy to play with.
pushan seems to have the profile of a typical Prius buyer, previous vehicle was a '91 Camry. Except for the miles I'd likely still have my 94 or 97 Camry. Another customer, now on his second Prius, came out of a 93 Accord.
I agree though that Toyota could have ramped up production on the Prius and could have taught salesman a little customer courtesy; most Toyota Prius salesman are jerks ; besides one at Sterling MCCall here and Kdhspyder who seem pretty good!
Cheers,
MidCow
I interacted with four different sales reps at three dealers while I was shopping for a Prius in 2004. All four were very professional. The guy I ordered a Prius from was top-notch: an engineer for many years before joining Toyota, and he is now the Master Sales Rep for the dealership, meaning he trains all of their reps. He also told me that they don't hire car salespeople to sell there. So that gives me hope that I could get a job there in a few years, when I am ready to semi-retire (from my 80-hours-a-week job).
The best of the worst" Advertised that had Prius is stock with savings of thousands" They were actually $2K over MSRP.
Their justification the going rate is $4K over so by charging you $2k over we are saving you thousands.
Apparently your experience has been different. But here with so many buyers they treated many potential customers like crap. Really has turned me away from Toyota and my wife is on her second Avalon.
I thought you had a Hyundia Elantra. Did you really buy a Prius. If so, congratulations. And I thought you were just a perenial car shopper,
Cheers,
MidCow
What is a "perennial car shopper"? Is that someone who buys an Accord coupe one year, and maybe a Civic Si the next year? But still hangs out at the Prius discussion even though he thinks it is so slow as to be unsafe--and it doesn't have a stick shift to boot?
My hope is that some of the people that participate or at least read this forum have input back to Toyota. You know back in the late 90's I wished and hoped on a Honda forum that Accord would have more power above 220 Hp and a 6-speed, heate seats, auto lights, traction control , skid control. Hey it can happen. Don't be surprise when generation III Prius offers a GT version that has a little more performance and a 6-speed.
Also this forum is good to get a variety of perspectives. I don't always agree with kdhspyder, but he has good character and provides a lot of good inside Toyota and Prius knowledge. HeyJewel always provides a great devil's advocate view and John1701A a knowleadgeable, abeit somewhat rose colored Prius owner view. Then StevenDebi presents a great scientific/engineering view. There is a lot of good input on this forum and a lot of good discussion.
Who knows maybe I will learn to drive an automatic if my wife will give me lessons on her Avalon
Cheers,
MidCow
To answer your questions - I'm not touchy about the Prius at all. Just a little put off by the *people* who think it's the saviour of the world and that no price is too high to pay for the priviledge. The Prius itself I think is quite ugly - like the Pontiac Aztec with s few body panels removed. I do think it provides a nice alternative vehicle for some folks who think saving $x on gas will make up somehow for spending $2X more on the car over another choice. Status seekers these must be.
And about paying $5K over sticker for anything - not me. Dealer can ask whatever they want. As I said, 'there's one born everyday' and if you can sleep well after taking advantage of that one, good for you. But Karma says what goes around comes around.
I hope they don't get them from New Orleans."
Ummmm ... the tsunami hit Asia. It was a hurricane that hit New Orleans.
Besides, you don't think Toyota would put something made in America in their cars do you?
Silly statement located in the wrong forum. This question was killed and put to rest in the 'Buying American Cars: What does it mean?' thread.
US Steel, to name just one, has a strong vested interest in Toyota building as many vehicles here as possible. I know from personal experience.
Facts are your friend, using them helps your argumentation.
I'll have to look at the sticker on a Prius or Camry next time I feel like being dissed and walk onto a Toyota lot (yeah, they're jerks out here in California too) to see what the "content" of these cars are.
What should I get now
Prius
MX5
sKY
IS250
s2000
cHEERS,
mIDcOW
Thanks for the approval! I think I will go for a red S2000.
By the way I think the Prius is a great car, just not for me ... gotta keep my left foot and right hand busy while driving
MidCow
I am completely out of the car market now with two car payments!
Cruis'n with the top down
MidCow
(But keep in mind you are never really out of the car market... how about if someone totals one of your cars in that nasty Houston traffic? I keep up with the car market continuously, for that reason... and because it is fun to do so.)
-- Perennial car buyer... 6 cars purchased/leased in the past 9 years, 2 more in the next 3 years.
Perhaps. But a large % of that 80% is from Japanese suppliers set up in business here in the US by Toyota. Just like Toyota building the Camry here is still a Japanese company, so are it's suppliers.
BTW, what part of ..
US Steel
Delphi
Alcoa
GoodYear
Michelin
etc, etc
..are Japanese owned?
This Japanese supplier argument has no facts. In fact it's just one of those "magic dust" arguments that those who cant understand how the Toyota vehicles keep on succeeding while the Detroit-based ones keep falling behind.
On that same forum one poster said something to the effect... 'AHA.. did you know that Toyota only pays its workers ~$16/hr whereas the UAW gets ~$25/hr!!!'
So the $16/hr workers make the Sienna and Odyssey and the $25/hr workers make the GM/Ford vans both of which are likely to be killed. More "magic dust"?
Oh btw, after investments and expenses are made here, the profits from both Toyota and Honda end up back in 401k plans and funds here in the US. Both are publically-traded Japanese-based companies building in the US in the same way that DC is a German-based company building in the US.
Yours is an argument that has no validity in today's world of large multi-national companies. The final analysis is: So What!
Request to host - is there a more appropriate forum for these seemingly-never-settled arguments about how "American" the Japanese/Korean/German companies are in this country? I have an opinion, too, but I come here to hear about the Prius.
Our situation: We're moving to Western Massachussets (i.e., lots of snow and ice in winter), where the our new car would be my commuter car (i.e. about 40 miles daily on a mix of highway and local roads) rather than our family car (we have two kids and a Subaru outback). We're interested in the Prius mainly because we want to reduce our fuel consumption, emissions, and cost.
Our questions:
1. What are your thoughts on safety?
-has the Prius received an IIHS safety rating yet?
-how does the Prius handle in snow and ice?
-how important is the lack of AWD/4WD?
-how important are the additions of the vehicle stability control and air bag curtain features?
-is there really a stalling problem?
-has anyone heard about increased risk of fire/explosions in collisions due to the electrical wiring throughout the car?
2. How does the overall financial cost of the Prius compare to a less expensive non-hybrid that nonetheless has decent gas mileage (say, the Corolla?).
--will the battery likely have to be replaced, and if so at what expected cost?
3. Is there any way to guarantee early delivery of the Prius to perserve the full tax credit?
Thanks for your thoughts!
To answer your specific questions:
- The safety is exceptional as are almost all Toyota's.
- The IIHS has not tested the Prius yet but in Europe they have using the same test. It was equal or slightly better than the Passat. Same class. The EURO/NCAP link is here. It's considered a 'Large Family Car'
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/introduction.php
- With VSC/Trac you shouldnt have no problem with control. Snows will help with all FWD vehicles.
- I will never again buy a vehicle that doesnt have VSC and SCA/B. My family is grown but if I still had younger children it's the first feature I'd make sure was on any vehicle. For the small premium it's a non issue... Get it.. Watch this video from EURO/NCAP.. It's the same link but this time click on Recommendation -->Stability Control-->See It in Action
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/introduction.php
- There was a software anomaly on certain early units in the 2004 early 2005 timeframe. Toyota corrected the software and since then there have been no reports. However... I am a case in point.. I had one with my Nov purchase Prius. But I was also pushing the envelope with the fuel warning light blinking for some time. I stalled out.. filled up and it went away.. Moral: When the car tells you to get gas... get it NOW!.. dont calculate!
- Exploding batteries are the same risk as exploding gas tanks. Realistically nil. In the event of a collision the juice is cut off and the fuel is cut off as well. There may have been one report somewhere, and I have not seen it, out of 200,000+ units on the road.
2) Overall financial cost.
Big discussions as you have seen in your reading here. Do not buy the Prius to save money. Seriously, and I sell them and own one, buy a 2-3 y.o. Corolla under Toyota's Certified Used Car program. You can feel confident with a vehicle having 50000 miles on it. With your commute it will last you 15 years more. You probably cant get VSC and SCA/B but the overall cost is way less. If you look hard you might get SCA/B on a newer '05 USED Corolla/Civic but your costs will begin to get up into the high teens rather than low teens.
- Do buy a Prius if you like the vehicle, room, features but you'll spend about $26300 for a vehicle with the features you want. Used Prius' are no bargain now they are too scarce and are nearly at full sticker - and no tax benefit.
- Tax benefit - talk to your advisor. If your family is subject to AMT you might not qualify for any credit.
- See Toyota's website on the battery question. They state that it should last the life of the vehicle. I believe in MA the warranty is 10 yrs / 150000 miles; it's a CARB state.
If no one in your area can get you one I can. I've had clients from San Diego, Colo, Niagara Falls (2), NYC and Pensacola. The region around DC gets the 2nd most number of vehicles after CA. Someone in your area ( Boston ) can get you one though. But do it now if you qualify for the credit.
With VSC/Trac you shouldnt have no problem with control. Snows will help with all FWD vehicles
'...you should have no problem...'
First, you should take the thoughts of kdh with this in mind : he is a Prius dealer.
Second - according to everything I've read there is a stalling issue with an unknown number of Prius and getting them fixed has been problematic to say the least. One fairly common complaint is that gas mileage drops off big time after the 'fix'.
Third - as for driving in the snow in Western Mass, I suggest you read the posts placed in the 'Prius problems and solutions' board recently. Several owners are giving up on the Prius in the snow. One of the problems apparently is that the all-knowing computer will shut down the motors to the wheels after a certain amount of wheel spin with no forward motion. I guess that's good cause it won't burn out your DC motors, but it's not so good for getting home in the snow.
Good luck with your purchase.
Second: Absolutely false, there was a specific number of VIN's involved but to be complete Toyota changed the CPU on all vehicles. Partially correct that some have reported dropoffs in mpg ratings in the first few tanks after the retrofit. Nothing has been reported since.
Third: It never was intended to be an AWD vehicle. If the snow is a major consideration consider snows or an AWD vehicle.
And for balance hey.. is against everything Toyota and hybrid.
I have seriously been considering a Honda Accord hybrid becuase it seems to be the best of both worlds- a nicely equipped almost luxury vehicle with lots of HP (250 or 260 IIRC) lots of room, comfort etc and mileage numbers in the 30s. However, reading the HAH boards here leads me to believe the >30mpg numbers are difficult to impossible to achieve.
As for Toyota and the Prius: IMHO, the Prius is butt-ugly. But beauty is in the eye so - so what. But the Toyota juggernaut and their greeer-than-thou attitude and the holier-than-thou attitude of many of their proponents leaves a bad taste with me. They tout their little green Prius all the while making the big dirty Sequoia (and soon the biggest 'full-size' pickup the planet has ever seen) and this goes totally unnoticed by the earth-first crown who gleefully burn down Chevy dealers for making the Suburban but think Toyota is on their side, or at least giove Toyota a pass.
OK, nuff. And I was just trying to give the questioner a little devil's-advocate view. No one should buy anything based solely on the word of the person who sells it. As for the stalling issue - ah, we can take it up on the stalling forum if needed.
With today's announcement I'm certain that there will be a backlash by the 'greenies' against the 5.7L but consider..
Youve got to be in the game to play it.
In two or three years when ULSD starts to become available everywhere in the States and suddenly the new FE rage will be diesels trucks getting 25 mpg Toyota suddenly cant say 'Oh yeah let's get in the game now'. Foresight is priceless. Toyota is already one of the largest makers of diesels in the world. Moving this expertise to this market will be a snap. Diesel trucks are already well accepted here.
So why does this matter? If in 4 years 'Yota and GM/F/D as well as Nissan can begin to tranform 2,000,000 gasser trucks annually to diesel, which is 30-35% more efficient, then we all will have saved roughly 200 gal of fuel per vehicle per year driven ( 15000 mi ) .If 2,000,000 Lt trucks can be converted annually the savings multiply every year:
400 Million gal yr 1 ( 2 Million on the road )
800 Million gal yr 2 ( 4 Million on the road )
1.2 Billion gal yr 3 ( 6 million on the road )
1.6 Billion gal yr 4 etc etc
BTW as compared to a 4c Camry the Prius also saves about 200 gal of fuel annually as does the HH vs the ICE Highlander.
Trucks won't be eliminated, it just wont happen. But getting them to save the same amount of fuel annually as a Prius or HH is a huge benefit to us all. Competition is good for everyone. Having Toyota and it's 'green' tilt ( valid or not ) in the truck market will push everyone that way.
Prius sounds like a good car for you. With fornt wheel drive and VSC it sghould do well in the snow. However, remember if you have a lot of snow, it is better to get snow tires on ALL FOUR tires not just the drive tires. Anyone will have some problems driving in heavy snow FWD or AWD with non-snow tires.
This is a good forum, you get diverse viewpoints. Mine is just another opinion
1. very safe
2. Hybrids are not the lowest cost vehicles and you usually don't recover gas savings until you own the car 5 or more years.
3. I wouldn't worry, you should get the tax credit, if you order now or anytime soon.
Cruis'n in my new low torque, high RPM 2.2L 4 cylinder,
MidCow S2000
P.S.- I have followed Prius for years, relaible, excellent technology, nice features. I just really prefer manual shift cars and a little more power (most say the Prius has plenty of power).
I just finished my grad school education so my father said he'd buy me a new car (don't think I'm spoiled-- I paid my way through school and still have a hefty debt-- but my pa made a small fortune on some stocks)
Consumer reports seems to be all in favor of the toyota prius. I don't want to spend more than 25k (though I'm not paying for it). I'm not sure if I should go for the Prius 2004, 2005, or 2006. Ideally, I'd shoot for the 2006 but can I find one for under 25k? I wouldn't mind a 2k4 or 2k5 with a few thousand miles on it—I don't care to buy a car just because it's new.
Should I go for the 2k6 or the 2k4/2k5 with extra features?
Then again, maybe it's all based on what the dealers have? Should I just look online for the best deals in my area (southern California)? If you're ballpark spending limit was 23-25k, would you go new or used, and what year? Thanks!
Welcome to the Forum,
I would go NEW for sure. You will find most of the used Prii are overpriced because of the demand. You will also miss out on the tax credit buying used. That may be worth as much as $3100 to you or your dad. If you are in the LA area there are some dealers that are not gougers. I would shop using the Internet. Get prices via email. Best to have that in hand when you go into the dealer. $25k is going to be a low end model with no NAV. Good luck.
You can get a Package #2 Prius in the $23300 range in very short order. It will qualify you for a potential tax credit in Apr '07. It doesnt have all the features on it but it will likely bring your net down to ~ $20000 plus taaxes etc. For $26500 ( before credit ) you can get a Package #6 with all the features except Navi and Leather.
If you qualify for the credit do it now. SoCal is a relatively tough place to find one at the moment. Wanna travel?