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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??
Toyota and Honda build Market share and record profits.
'Yota will sell over 50k Prius, and will have Hybrids on every model within 3 years!
Nissan buys Toyota Hybrid system, and learns how to make cars fast and sexy!
Mazda makes hit after hit, with 3, 6, and RX-8, but all with small engines!
On the other hand, Chrysler will put a Hemi in Neon if the SRT sales slow! Jeep and Dodge will become Hemispheres!
GM will throw 200+ HP at Cobalt, 400HP at CTS, and who knows how much at Escalade with V12!
And Ford is so dazed and confused, there is a Fire Sale on their Market Share, with future duds like Freestyle and 500 rocketing to Rebate Hell!
Are the "Big 2, Maybe 3" swinging for high profits now on Steroid -injected $40k SUV's, to fund a more ballanced counter-attack in the future for market share lost?
Will Japanese Hybrid power nullify US Big-block V8s with similar power AND better economy?'
Can Detroit stop losing share by throwing more power at the problem?
Will super-hybrid powerplants make the big-block V8 obsolete?
Your thoughts.
DrFill (DIG)
'Yota will sell over 50k Prius, and will have Hybrids on every model within 3 years!
Nissan buys Toyota Hybrid system, and learns how to make cars fast and sexy!
Mazda makes hit after hit, with 3, 6, and RX-8, but all with small engines!
On the other hand, Chrysler will put a Hemi in Neon if the SRT sales slow! Jeep and Dodge will become Hemispheres!
GM will throw 200+ HP at Cobalt, 400HP at CTS, and who knows how much at Escalade with V12!
And Ford is so dazed and confused, there is a Fire Sale on their Market Share, with future duds like Freestyle and 500 rocketing to Rebate Hell!
Are the "Big 2, Maybe 3" swinging for high profits now on Steroid -injected $40k SUV's, to fund a more ballanced counter-attack in the future for market share lost?
Will Japanese Hybrid power nullify US Big-block V8s with similar power AND better economy?'
Can Detroit stop losing share by throwing more power at the problem?
Will super-hybrid powerplants make the big-block V8 obsolete?
Your thoughts.
DrFill (DIG)
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Comments
However -- the new hemi has almost nothing to do with the 426 design, other than the hemispherical shape of the heads. It is purely and simply a marketing ploy by Chrysler, and while I don't blame them for using it to sell cars, it means absolutely nothing in practical terms.
As for a showdown between hybrids and V8s, V10s or V12s, I believe there is none. In fact, hybrid technology will almost certainly be used to enhance the performance and economy of ALL engine configurations in the very near future. That is certainly Toyota's plan, and GM and Ford are not far behind.
The main things that killed the original Hemi were weight and cost. The Hemi design had two sets of rocker shafts, which ended up giving them those huge, heavy heads. The wedge-head engines that started phasing in in 1958 were lighter and cheaper to build.
Interestingly, I think the current Hemi is loosely based on the old wedge-head smallblock V-8. It has the same stroke as a 360, 3.58", and the bore center spacing is the same. The angle between the intake and exhaust valves is also much tighter, so they don't have the big, bulky heads like the Hemis of days gone by did.
Another interesting tidbit is that, while the original Hemi was phased out do to its cost to build (I think the 426 was phased out mainly because of insurance costs), the new Hemi is actually cheaper to build than the 4.7 OHC V-8! And that engine, in turn, is cheaper to build than the old 318/360 (5.2/5.9) Magnums that were around until just recently. Funny how things work out like that.
The Japanese PR teams are waaayyy better than the American ones, which is why we think of the Prius and Civic Hybrid when we think of the Japanese, and not the Sequoia and Armada.
Two, let's hear what is the public perception between the advances in engine tech and market share of the japanese to the engine size, power, and cost of the Americans.
Are the Americans selling market share for profit per unit ($35k Durangos and $40k Rams, $50k CTS?)? Will this help or hurt them 5 years from now?
This isn't the Hemi Board. Let's keep it to market significance and how this helps American companies vs the Japanese.
DrFill
Honda can squeeze 240Hp out of less than 2 liters.
Lexus will sell a 300HP RX400h with somehwere around 30-35MPG.
Nissan will use Toyotas system starting in 2 years!
Mazda can make 230+HP out of a 1.3 liter wankel!
What is the US response?
340HP station wagons?
DrFill
Being a very monolithic culture, the Japanese might tend to all get on the same train when it comes to preferences, at least relative to the American who is trained to "be different together". Certainly the Japanese seem very respectful of high technology in every form possible. Possibly (just speculating here) part of this comes from realizing that technology played a large part in their near-destruction as a nation. (not going to make THAT mistake again!).
So I think Americans are much more mistrustful of technology than the Japanese, and less willing to embrace it suddenly and completely. It has to grow on us, bit by bit, gadget by gadget. We'll debate among us for 6 months whether to buy a NAV system but I'd guess to the average Japanese buyer who can afford it, it's a no brainer.
Pushrods are great for people raised on low end grunt and pickup trucks and Daddy's old muscle car. The Japanese don't really have a rich automotive past to reach back to and replicate year after year. What can they do for retro?---make 2 cylinder air cooled cars with chain drive again?
btw shiftright, according to your theory, don't you think the japanese would have become as mistrustful of technology as the americans since it was a burgeoning technology that enabled the devastation of hiroshima and nagasaki?
As for japan's view of technology, it's very hard for me to pontificate abou an entire country , but if I were defeated by an opponent I would tend want what he had, not what I didn't have. I always thought that the only thing Native Americans needed more of 150 years ago was artillery.
Given how the Japanese have embraced so many American technologies (and even some of our governmental system albeit without much choice, it's true) I don't think they fear them , no. I think they want to forget the past, much like americans did after the war. Americans didn't care for "old cars" in the 50s, they junked them by the millions.
This romance we are having with the past seems to have been born because Americans looked at their cars from the 1980s and were pretty disgusted with them. Also Hollywood spawned some of the frenzy of the collector car market. The Japanese, on the other hand, had all the right stuff for a global market in the 1980s, and after some false starts, good products for America, too.
So it's been a one-way street as far as high-tech in cars goes, for the last 25 years. The japanese and europeans developed what we call the modern car today, not us.
But I think it's changing. The pushrod engine is probably doomed anyway except for commercial. People are already regarding them as old fashioned and cheap. If they didn't we wouldn'teven be having this conversation, right?Yyou must have been inspired by things you saw and heard.
So it's a marketing and cultural thing. People don't want old fashioned stuff unless they are forced to make do with it. I'd venture that a Corvette with a twin ohc motor would sell one-half again as much, but it would cost more and it wouldn't go any faster. So GM doesn't do it, but it should anyway, for reasons that have nothing to do with speed or HP.
As for the hybrids vs the hemi, I think the winner will be....
no peeking now....
almost there...
yes, the consumer. if you need to tow, you'll have an engine choice with good growl on the low end. if you don't, and you drive short distances, you're going to get someplace between 40 and 60 mpg and like it.
pick what suits your fancy, and have fun.
Fast forward 3 decades: N. American prosperity is rising, gas prices are a relative bargain, and even monstrous V8s are getting fuel economy figures akin to those of the Japanese 4-bangers of yore. Sure, hybrids are a neat idea but are they anything more than a novelty right now?
Not in other parts of the world where gas remains expensive and where the electricity is affordable and its supply is widespread and reliable. Or where emissions are a concern (provided, of course, that we don't look at how the electricity is generated in the first place). And those conditions, by the way, don't co-exist everywhere. But they do exist in Japan and could right here in N. America if Middle East or OPEC politics take a bad turn (now, how unlikely is that?). Regardless, these factors already exist - or have a reasonable chance of occuring soon - in enough places that any manufacturer interested in being a global competitor should be heavily involved in developing alternative fuel technologies. And if it happens here in a sudden bang - as it did 30 years ago - US manufacturers better be poised with a proven product already on the road. Or else history will indeed repeat itself.
GM, for one, has been researching and developing hybrid and fuel cell technologies for years and, in fact, has an accord with Toyota to share some of these technologies. It just isn't commercializing them yet. GM has been reluctant to introduce hybrids because they're pricey, the demand hasn't been there and because it views hybrids as a stop gap solution - a brief step on the way to fuel cell technologies in which GM is investing rather heavily. But, now that Toyota and Honda have created a demand (albeit small) for hybrids - and with recent studies showing that a robust hydrogen distribution network (on which fuel cells rely) is still some ways off - GM will be joining the "stop gap" parade:GM says lower gas price may curb demand for hybrids
As for torque and all that, basically the bottom line is for gas engines is displacement per cylinder, not engine design so much. Could a flat, ohc Subaru engine tow 10,000 lbs.? Sure why not, if it's got enough cubic inches.
If you take away the cost factor (which is certainly a consideration) the "old tech" has no significant advantage for the consumer I don't think. One could have argue "simplicity and ease of maintenance" 20 years ago, but now that all seems to have leveled out. Maybe rebuilding pushrods would be cheaper, you could say that.
Part of the point of this discussion is to point out the different focus of Domestic vs. Foreign manufacturers.
Is Hybrid tech necessarily better than improving the ICE alone. Thats a big debate alone, and I would refer you to the discussion on this board "Hybrids are they up to the chore"
As far as engine technology goes I believe GM makes Corvettes with a 5.7L V8 that is rated at 29 MPG hwy. That is as good or better than almost every midsize sedan with engines that have half the displacement.
GM is also incorporating DOD (displacement on demand) into all their V8's and some V6s. This essentially shuts down half the cylinders when not needed, thus improving gas mileage.
Now as far as hybrids go; refer again to the hybrid discussion regarding actual gas mileage owners are getting. From what I've read most owners are getting 40-45MPG from the new Prius that is rated at 60/54.
Granted 40-45 mpg is great but if I bought a vehicle and got 75% of the advertised MPG rating, I'd be a little upset; especially if that vehicle was bought mainly because of the advertised MPG rating.
GM has hybrids trucks available now, today, to fleet buyers. GM however is only advertising about a 10 % MPG gain. These trucks will be available next year to the general public.
As far as statements like, "Honda can squeeze 240Hp out of less than 2 liters."
Yes this is a great accomplishment, but not truly unique. Many makers could make engines to produce similar numbers, but they chose not to because of the performance trade off's for real world driving. The S2000 is the only car using this engine, and there are only 10-20K of these cars sold per year. There are many reasons Honda does not put this engine in the Accord. It would certainly fit easily in the same place that the Accord's 4 cyl does. It just wouldn't perform worth a damn in a 3500 lb car in daily cruising. Very few people drive their cars running the engine to the red line, esp. if that line is at 9000 rpm.
Just because their approaches to tech improvements are different, doesn't make 1 necessarily better than the other.
Everyone is throwing away their "old" cell phones to get camera phones.
Camera phones! does it make it a better phone. Is it a better camera? Don't think so.
But people sure have the urge to buy one, and when they do, they find a certain "electronic status" in that I think.
So all this PR rubs off in the marketplace. People want modern, up to date products, even if they can't really judge them very well. A Braun coffeemaker looks a lot slicker than a Mr. Coffee, but they both make coffee.
GM is betting on the "Fuel Cell" horse as THE technology of the 21st century. Toyota/Honda are betting on Hybrids.
Toyota has several hundred Fuel Cell vehicles here and at home being used by business in fleet service. So it CAN proliferate that medium. They seem to be using that tech as a fall back.
GM has some plans for Hybrids in the Silverado, but is at least 5 years behind the Japanese as far as market penetration. Ford is the closest domestic to realizing a true "Green" car in the current idiom.
My point is by the time the domestics get one, Toyota will have ten. Fuel Cells? When will a consumer pick up one of those? That tech needs a whole new infrastucture to fly!
Hybrid sales will likely double AGAIN this year, TRIPLE next year!
I'd say Hybrid tech IS better than fuel cell because it WILL SELL RIGHT NOW!
Catam
DOD engine management has been used by GM for decades, it is OLD tech.
Variable Valve Timing is getting old, and GM is just starting to get bthe hang of it now!
DrFill
technologies that become popular for whatever reason thrive, while those technologies which do not, regardless of whether they are superior or not, wither and die. witness VHS versus Betamax back in the day, or DVD versus Laserdisc.
I think hybrids are a natural next step because they are a progressive technology, requiring less adjustment than a fuell cell powered car.
let's call them a transition technology.
in france or japan, you cannot use a payphone with coins any more, you must buy a prepaid telephone card with a magnetic strip on the back. it seems logical to implement this technology here in NA as well, as it would cut down on vandalism and the extra costs associated with regular coin retrieval, but how would you phase it in without disrupting everyone? it would require an entire new phone network across the country. the logistics of introducing a new technology are staggering.
the conversion of the EEC to the Euro currency is a great example. It required all participating countries to take an entire working day off to make the transition. Just imagine the problems at the smallest level--making change for the customer down at the local convenience store.
Maybe consumers don't know much about engines, you are right, but don't you think you'd be hard put to find many consumers who would say in a survey that beyond a doubt that American automakers are "in the forefront of technology"? I don't think that's the box they would check. And so, it seems likely that if a majority regard American cars as somewhat technology-retarded, that they would also tend to think the best and newest technology comes therefore from foreign shores. And I think they are right...maybe not on a case by case basis, but overall, they are right and pretty well-informed on the reality of the situation at present.
If you look at a modern car today, and list its features, like electronic fuel injection, dohc engines, active suspensions, 5 and 6 speed transmissions, variable valve timing, variable intake runners, drive by wire, electronic power steering, smart cruise control, radial tires, AWD systems, highly efficient turbo systems that really work, hybrid power systems, etc etc----these were all put into production by foreign companies first.
If you took the computer management systems away from a 3800 V-6 Buick, you are basically looking at a 1948 engine. That is both remarkable and "long in the tooth".
Hybrid sales will likely double AGAIN this year, TRIPLE next year!
I'd say Hybrid tech IS better than fuel cell because it WILL SELL RIGHT NOW!"
It's hard to argue but, in North America, I wouldn't call what Honda or Toyota has accomplished WRT hybrids so far as being any kind of insurmountable market edge. It's early days and we're still talking small potatoes volume-wise. The US manufacturers need to get in there but not because the market is demanding but because the legislators will - to that extent, they're better off putting out a product when they have one that will please consumers and prove to be dependable. Otherwise, they could damage their credibility in what is sure to eventually be an important market.
In the meantime, I don't see a clear winner: hybrid and hemi will co-exist as long as manufacturers are dealing with present and planning for tomorrow today. I can't criticize GM for producing big V8s when I know what they're doing to prepare for tomorrow while pandering to current demands (which they've arguably encouraged).
But, one day, stratospheric gas prices will arrive in North America and V8s might indeed be the dinosaurs that are replaced by hybrids and fuel cells. Perhaps that's all the more reason why we should flock to today's V8s - we may never get another chance! >:(
of course they all had dangerous limitations, but it was the british and american planes with their simpler rolls royce merlin engines which prevailed in the area of maintenance and reliablity. funny how now it is the americans who build overly complicated war machines but still produce old-fashioned cars.
personally, i find that in times of emergency and difficulty, the simpler the better. that is probably why hobby mechanics prefer older cars with their carbureted engines which they can actually work on without a laptop nearby, and why toyota still makes the land cruiser with carburetors and not fuel injectors for the african market. the blowing sand and dirt foul up the injectors, rendering them useless in the desert. sometimes old tech is the best tech. excuse my ramblings by the way... :P
Or, we could go completely with your WWII fighter plane analogy, but twist it to another point of view--that the Messerschmidt was the superior plane early on but it did not evolve, whereas the first Spitfires and Mustangs (both with serious deficiences, one in weapons platforms and the other in speed) evolved constantly and became ever more complex (radar, cannons, armor plating, self-sealing gas tanks, etc).
Or we could say that training made all the difference. Once you lose your top personnel (to combat or to a competing company), you are in deep doo-doo. Where are the best designers and engineers these days in the automotive world?
Besides, the best plane was really the Zero...Spitfires fell in droves to them...but again, no evolution and the "enemy" eats you alive. But hey, Mitsubishi is back in business, thankfully not making fighter planes anymore.
Point of all this? I think a large number of Detroit designs need to evolve and pretty quick, too. You can't just sit around polishing your medals from the 1960s.
Americans brag a lot, but you can count on the fingers of one hand the cars from Detroit that have seriously challenged the Europeans point for point. The Corvette, possibly the CTS-V. Most American products are succeeding in the pickup and SUV category, not a European strong suit. And I'm still waiting for the American Camry and Accord.
anyhoo, i agree that american cars are deficient in many areas, but i think they make some nice big cars like the cadillac dts which has a really big interior with lots of shoulder room, and the interior design of the lincoln navigator is really excellent with its sumptuous soft leather and satin metal trim.
as for the accord and camry, the americans don't have much to offer, although if GM had built a car that looked as faithful to the concept G6 as the solstice is to the concept, i think lots of people would switch. i really don't think it would be that hard for one of the domestics to build a competitve fwd family sedan. maybe the next sebring will be good, who knows?
i want to remain optimistic because i'm happy when domestic products are successful. up here in canada, ski-doo and sea-doo builds snowmobiles and personal watercraft that are quite competitive with yamaha, kawasaki, and polaris. it makes me kinda proud.
i'm waiting for the 2006 mustang GT to come out. at that point, i will decide between it and the dodge hemi awd magnum , subaru legacy turbo wagon, and possibly the volvo v50 (but i'm wary of volvo for some reason). bye for now!
Typical GM cheap-and-cheezy interior, but the rest should get much love.
DrFill
i'm sure the G6 will do well, and i'm not saying it's a bad car. not at all. but i can see hardly any resemblance between the cut lines, contouring, proportion, wheel stance, interior treatment, and profile of the two cars.
yes, i'm aware that concept cars rarely transfer over to production without major concessions to federal safety regulations and cost considerations. however, some domestic vehicles such as the chrysler 300, pontiac solstice, dodge viper, plymouth prowler maintained the spirit and flavour of the original design which inspired it.
i see none of that in the new G6, and i'm quite disappointed in the final product, as i was expecting something which could knock the accord and camry off their feet instead of merely tapping them on the shoulder. given that, if i had never seen the concept G6, i would probably say that the production G6 is a pretty nice-looking car.
Honda and Toyota set the standard in the mass market. Before they began moving up and attacking Detroit's strongholds, they pretty drove the inexpensive European brands from these shores. The popularly priced European brands from France, Italy and Great Britain just couldn't compete. By the early 1990s, slumping sales had even VW management wondering whether it might not be a good idea to pack up and go home. Fortunately, VW management decided to give the American market one more try.
Also, to give credit where credit is due, most of the comfort and convenience features that today's buyers consider necessities were introduced and perfected on American cars. Power steering, power brakes, reliable and effective HVAC systems, stereo systems, power windows, power seats, power door locks and cruise control all debuted on American cars. Today, all but the cheapest vehicles have these features.
RE: The Zero---any aviation historian would probably vote the Zero the best fighter of 1938-1942. They destroyed everything they met and were perfectly designed "for their job"....which was long range Pacific carrier duty. They could fly over 1,000 miles!
Actually, they were a high speed sport plane with guns, kind of a well armed Miata.
grbeck---I guess it depends on how you look at it but I thought your list of American innovations was sort of a left-handed compliment.
"So, you got fuel injection? Oh, YEAH?!! Well, we got 6 way power seats!"
Okay, fair enough...the Americans made driving comfortable, the Europeans made it fun, the British made it fashionable, the Italians made it sexy and the Japanese made it reliable.
And here's what the production version is going to look like...
Looks more like a loose interpretation of the concept to me, instead of being faithful to it! It actually makes me think of a Camry with a Pontiac grille, and a rear wheel that's too far out back!
You've hit the nail on the head exactly. I had forgotten how good the concept looked. The production car's doors do look like they could fit a Camry. The production car also looks dis-jointed at that front door kink.
M
But apparently ( and this is my point, FINALLY) there came a day....the one tragic moment, when an OHV engine simply beat all comers. It finally became impossible for the flathead to win anything. And that was essentially the end of that motor.
So I think it might be wise to consider that the older engine technology, while kept miraculously efficient to this point, might indeed suffer the same fate. For this reason, the sooner the switchover is made, the better, rather than to be left flat-footed, or flat-headed, with a totally uncompetitive product.
This is essentially what happened to American cars in general in the late 70s and early 80s. They had NOTHING to beat the competition and had to rely on brand loyalty, government intervention and patriotism to carry them through some very very scary times.
You might say I am advocating that American automakers switch from "tactical" moves (how do we win this particular battle) to "strategic" planning (how do we win the war in the future).
i hope two years from now the solstice looks like the one lutz rolled out in detroit the second time. remember those chevy sprint convertibles...
Lets see some "Edsel" styling!
In short, the production version is so close to the concept that any creative owner can easily make his car look almost exactly like the show car. The rest of the owners deserve what they're willing to accept!!
The last versions of the car were truly ugly and horrible. And the horse collar grille everybody ragged on was used to wonderful effect by Facel Vega. Actually, I think the new Chrysler 300 harkens back to the worst aspects of the Edsel design.
It's also hard to tell from the angle that I took of the concept car, but the roofline is also sleeker. No doubt the production model had to have the roof raised, and more of a rump put on, because while the concept had better proportions, it probably didn't add up to much room inside. I'm also guessing that since this thing has to share its basic structure with the Malibu, it had to be up-righted a bit, anyway.
As for the Edsel-Enzo remark, hey, the Enzo was the first thing that popped into my mind that had a central "theme" going on up front! And they both begin with "E", but that's about it ;-)
I thought the Edsel actually got better looking with each passing year. The '58 was the most hideous, but they toned it down considerably for 1959, although by then it was more Ford-like and less unique. And by '60, it looked almost Pontiac-ish. Much more attractive to me, although by then it had totally lost all the hideousness that Edsel fans revel in.
When I see the new Chrysler 300C, the first old car that pops into my mind is the '63-64 Chryslers. They were similarly tank-like, with blocky, bulky bodies and low rooflines that yielded small-ish windows, and were also relatively compact for the time. I also see a bit of '79-80 Newport in it, although hell, in retrospect, I think they were almost more modern-looking! Slicker looking front-end, more open, airy greenhouse, better proportions (IMO, at least) etc.
Sorry, I think the new design is totally without finesse or grace. Maybe when I see it in person it will have a nice, menacing presence that will change my perception of it (probably what they were shooting for). In any case, at least it isn't boring, and it doesn't have the squeezed-thru-a-sausage-maker look of the LHS.
Id be quicker to throw stones at the inside over the outside.
And whAT'S wrong with the Camry's rear doors? This design feature maybe the best part of the otherwise innocuous Sedan King!
DrFill
I think nothings wrong with the Camry's rear doors. It's just interesting that the G6's look EXACTLY the same. LOL :P
American manufacturers' contribution was to make the car accessible to everyone. Henry Ford I perfected mass production, which drove down the price to the point where the average person could afford a new car. Alfred Sloan and Edsel Ford, working through Harley Earl and Eugene Gregorie, respectively, made sure that low-priced cars were stylish and handsome, too.
American innovations have been aimed at enabling everyone to drive. The self-starter, the automatic transmission, power steering and power brakes meant that driving would no longer be the province of men between the ages of 16 and 50 (plus a few adventurous women).
Effective HVAC systems made driving a four-season affair - or least pleasant throughout the year. Here in Pennsylvania, where summer temperatures hit 90+ degrees on a regular basis (with 95 percent humidity), air conditioning is appreciated just as much as fuel injection and AWD. It's even more appreciated in the South.
Only significant technical achievement in America lately that I can think of is GM's magna-ride. VERY slick stuff!
That kink at the front doors make the car look dis-jointed.
Don't worry about the Solstice, the car shown this year is the production version.
M
Some of the new features, such as adaptive cruise control, strike me as answers to questions nobody asked. I have no problem maintaining a proper distance from the car in front of me...regardless of whether I'm using cruise control. Power door locks may be "old hat" in comparison, but I find them to be more useful.