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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "Perhaps interest is waning?"

    Nah Mark, Just a lot of very satisfied customers of this brilliant car. No need to go on and on about it in a forum. But I tell you what. Get yourself into a Celestial Silver RL with Taupe interior. Take the wife along...drive it on a sunny day around a hilly lake area in suburban Cincy. Then come back into the forum and tell us what you feel about it. (Phoenix was warm, Sante Fe was cold, it's good to be back home.)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Well... I think my point was missed...

    I wasn't grouping them as an enthusiast or even someone just well versed in the cars would... I was grouping them as most of the vast uninformed car buying public would... You know, the 99.5% of people that aren't on Edmunds...

    Most people that buy an RL think it belongs in Level III... and think they are getting a screaming deal... It doesn't really matter what we think..

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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I believe most people realize that the Acura TL competes with the BMW 3 series and not the 5 series.
  • formulaformula Member Posts: 17
    I have read many of your posts over the last months, but these last two seem to once again mystify me as you indicate that you haven't driven the RL. I wouldn't expect you to take the word of the auto mags and there often confusing comparisons that one day have one car beating everyone and the next a completely different view based on how the comparison is framed. And I know you have been on these boards long enough to know that everyone has their opinion and it is difficult to trust anything you read on these forums. Which brings me to the point, that before you discount the RL, or any other car for that matter, you really need to drive the car. This is especially the case with the RL. Take the RL on a twisting road at speed, and I think you will start to understand why so many are passionate about the car. The best comparison I can come up with is the difference between skiing on the old straight skis vs. the more modern shaped skis. The car is absolutely a pleasure to drive, and the only way that you can possible understand what the car is about, is to drive it.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    kyfdx---okay, I'm with you now. With luxury performance sedans, the tendency is to expect consumers to be educated and sophisticated, but perhaps you're right that many car buyers in this segment are relatively uninformed. Do they cross-shop the LS430 with the RL, and conclude that the Acura delivers the same things for $20,000 less? I'm not so sure, but maybe you're right.

    Something like 80% of luxury cars are leased in the U.S. This is because most consumers couldn't afford these cars if they had to buy them, and they end up in a cycle in which a lease is replaced by another lease. This fact alone complicates the car-buying process considerably, and puts the dealer in a more advantageous position if the consumer is indeed so uninformed. In addition to comparing features, styling, and performance data, consumers are forced to navigate a labryinth of residual values, money factors, annual mileage limits, lease term options, warranty factors, early termination and wear/tear penalties, gap insurance, and other fine print.

    But it's also possible that many consumers don't even get that far with the leasing variables. They simply compare monthly payments, follow their heart, roll the dice, take delivery, and end up on Edmunds telling everyone how great their new car is!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Maybe the average RL consumer is cross-shopping with the LS a bit, but I doubt that they are cross-shopping with a 7 series or S class that much.

    Here is how I group the luxury sedans:

    1: IS250, TSX, 325i, C240, A4 2.0T, CTS 2.8

    1.5: IS350, TL, G35, 330i, C320, A4 3.2, CTS 3.6

    2: GS300, RL, M35, 530i, E350, A6 3.2, STS 3.6

    2.5: GS430, M45, 545i, E500, A6 4.2, STS 4.6

    3: LS430, Q45, 745i, S500, A8 4.2

    3.5: 760i, S600, A8 6.0
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I like that grouping. Thats pretty much how I'd list all of those.

    You left out Volvo, Saab, and Jaguar, but I can pretty much guess where you'd place them.

    I do think there is one more class though......10. Phantom, 'Bach 57/62, Arnage...lol.

    I also think that in the first class the C230 is a better fit since it and the C240 are to get new V6s in about a month or so. The C230 is much sportier than the C240 and upcoming C280.

    Lastly, don't forget the VW Phaeton V8 in class 3 and Phaeton W12 for class 3.5.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Why exactly would Infiniti discontinue the FX? While I dont have any individual sales numbers to look at, I see FX35s and 45s on the road constantly. The last time I saw ONE MDX was a few years ago. It needs a redesign NOW, not a few years from now. Its not competitive anymore with either the RX330\400 or the FX. As for the Murano, its hard to say. Nissan may choose to redesign it to better compete with Pilot and Highlander, or drop it. They will still have 3 SUVs, so I think they'll be fine.

    As for the NSX, when your "halo" is a 15 year old car, thats kind of pathetic. Since when does it have no competition? Did Chevy stop selling the Corvette? Did Porsche go out of business? Last time I checked, the NSX was eaten alive by its actually modern competition years ago. When I said "Chevy Astro" I didnt mean the NSX is a van. What I meant is like the Astro, its a relic of a car that should've died a long time ago.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    You have to understand that when the Honda fans see these Nissan/Infiniti models, so snazzy compared to what they're used to from Honda, they think these must be cult cars. Fact is Murano, 3 years into its cycle, just had its best sales month ever, 40% over March '04. Murano is to Nissan what Pilot is to Honda, only much more stylish.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    >>I see FX35s and 45s on the road constantly. The last time I saw ONE MDX was a few years ago.

    I don't know where you live, but in the DC area I see MDXs on the road constantly. Rarely does a week go by that I don't see at least one. When I drove to northern PA a couple of weeks ago, I saw at least 10 MDXs. In contrast, I saw my first FX45 on Sunday. I do see a lot of FX35s (or maybe Nissan Muranos - it's hard to tell) on the road, but I mainly notice them because they're so ugly.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, while I'm not behind 100% of Nissan's designs (the Quest and Armada are pretty ugly) for the most part I like what they have done since Ghosn took over..well except for the horribly cost cut interiors of '03 and '04, but it looks like that is over starting with the '05 cars, hopefully for good. The Murano is at least interesting looking, where as the Pilot looks like a CR-V after some double-cheeseburgers. To me, All Honda\Acura products save the TSX and TL, and I guess the S2000, are utterly boring and forgetable looking. Classic Japanese "styling" at its best\worst. Honda is in an uncomfortable spot between "crazy fun" Nissan and "ol' reliable" Toyota. They need to work harder to carve out their own identity, especially now that Subaru and Mazda are more focused players.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    In post #1662, the comment about price "from" and "as shown" are mentioned. The statement is factually accurate. But, I have driven a completely "base model" Infiniti M and it is quite nice. Add the Journey package and the stand alone Nav system to an M35x and for many people that will be a dandy car.

    Yet, there was a moment in time, when I began reading about the new STS (with some positive CTS experiences and some lengthy SRX test drives under my belt) that I thought "why not American?"

    The package bundling in an STS means that a car that has been suggested will come to market for $40,000 can only be had in AWD trim with over a 50% markup -- making what could have been an attractive car cost over $62,000.

    Infiniti, for example, does allow the buyer to eat smaller bites of the apple, by far.

    In this era of mass customization, I cannot figure out why we can't just order what we want and pay a slight premium for it as a stand alone option rather than putting all this stuff in a package. Infiniti, too, does this -- I would love to buy the rear window sunshade (but not for $10,500 -- which is the only way to get it).

    I took a couple of marketing classes in graduate school (but that was back in the 70's) and one of the things that was said was to market things so that customers will buy them.

    Rear heated seats, I'd buy. Rear window sunshades, I'd buy. Since I don't want rear seat DVD video, don't make me buy that to get the one or two options that I would gladly pay for.

    Lesson: figure out a way to allow the customer to give you money. But, don't force the customer to buy packages that may not be universally wanted.

    The Cadillac is the worst of the bunch -- it is impossible to get an SRX AWD with nav and magna ride for under $53K!.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I did commit a sin, I admit it. I went to the Acura dealer (and the Chrysler 300C AWD dealer) several times. I couldn't get a test drive. The cars were sold, on hold, being prepped for the auto show; dog ate homework, etc. I did look at the RL and 300C AWD -- got to move around the parking lot in the Chrysler -- woo woo). After seeing AND driving the M35x and noting the RL was a bit smaller than I had hoped I just stopped trying to test the car.

    When I went to the auto show, I did spend a lot of time in the RL (and others) but zero drive time. I liked the A6 a lot, also liked the M35x -- time remaining on my lease and a need to place an order are my only excuses. The subsequent complaints about its lack of off the line power were noted,but I did read the performance numbers and frankly I could live with them quite happily.

    I did test the TL and found it a strong A4 and BMW 330 alternative save for the massive torque steer and that no AWD was available and no certain AWD was known.

    I remain a believer that the RL is a bargain -- and I find much of the dialog here doesn't seem to be simply chest pounding or an attempt to justify why the Acura or the whatever is superior.

    I am awaiting my M35x -- July is the target. They have my deposit. I do wonder if I shouldn't have stayed the "Audi" course -- but I am uncertain that I would have not been kicking myself for paying too much for too little performance (although in the last several weeks the Audis seem to have started to be almost competitive in terms of leasing).

    If someone gave me an RL or an A6 or an E-4Matic, I am quite certain I would not feel I was settling for anything. These cars are all good (with the possible exception of the Jag and the Volvo -- but I even tested the Volvo S60 Type R and found it to be "entertaining" and I just have no interest in the Jag and the reviews don't encourage me to change that opinion) -- out of the list of 7 or 8 that keep showing up in the comparos in C&D, R&T, Motor Trend and Automobile any one of the top 5 or 6 would be at the very least acceptable.

    The new 5 series may once again change the paradigm -- especially with the 255HP motor (6 cyl) with "x" drive. I'll bet BMW will be able to sell as many of them as they can screw together -- and another round of comparos may unseat Infiniti from its top spot (or Audi from its top spot if you prefer Automobile's take on the pecking order).

    These are highly entertaining and thought provoking forums. And as someone mentioned probably less than 1% of the car buying public ever participates in these things so we all are fundamentally "screaming voices in the wilderness."

    But most of us seem to be able to get our points across well and I continue to learn and rethink my positions (obviously, after 27 Audis I went Japanese) based in large measure on the "conversations" we have here.

    I do wish I had been able to drive both the Acura RL and the 300C AWD, but it does not extend to "regret."

    Next time.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Why exactly would Infiniti discontinue the FX? Diminished sales

    I see FX35s and 45s on the road constantly. The last time I saw ONE MDX was a few years ago. It needs a redesign NOW, not a few years from now. Its not competitive anymore with either the RX330\400 or the FX. Whether Lexusguy personally sees these cars on the road has nothing to do with reality. The MDX is a 7-seat SUV based on a minivan platform. The RX and FX are luxury 5-seaters. They appeal to different market segments. I agree with you that the MDX and Pilot are boring and "uncool." But that's why Honda sells so many of both.

    As for the Murano, its hard to say. Nissan may choose to redesign it to better compete with Pilot and Highlander, or drop it. They will still have 3 SUVs, so I think they'll be fine. I love the Murano. It's well-designed and well-conceived. But I think it's riding a trend that may not have long term staying power.

    As for the NSX, when your "halo" is a 15 year old car, thats kind of pathetic. Since when does it have no competition? Did Chevy stop selling the Corvette? Did Porsche go out of business? Last time I checked, the NSX was eaten alive by its actually modern competition years ago. The NSX is a hand-built, "Asian-Italian" aluminum exotic with a mid-engine, high-revving V6, with Honda reliability and low maintenance costs (except for tires, perhaps). It's a rich geek's exotic. MSRP is almost $90K. So, no, it does not directly compete with a pushrod Corvette or the Germanic Porsche (although both are great cars in their own right). It's a cult/halo car and Honda sells less than 300 of them globally. It may be discontinued, or replaced by a V8/V10 exotic when Toyota rolls out its rumored exotic.

    When I said "Chevy Astro" I didnt mean the NSX is a van. Yes, I think we all understood what you were trying to say, but thanks for explaining.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, my wife and I cross shopped the RX and MDX directly. If the FX had been out at that time, we would have looked at that too. Just because the MDX has a "kid row" that doesnt mean its suddenly in a different segment. I found the MDX to be the better driver, but it wasnt as comfy, and my wife was turned off by the cheesy materials compared to the RX. Also, at the time, the MDX was brand new and there was a year long wait list.

    At least to me, the NSX has no appeal whatsoever, and I love Japanese cars. Its like the Lotus Espirit, another '80s design that stayed LONG past its prime. The V8 Vantage, 911, etc. are just so much better cars. I dont really care about the LF-A. Yeah, I know thats wierd considering my name, but I'm never going to buy one. The Infiniti GT-R though is very interesting.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "I am awaiting my M35x -- July is the target. They have my deposit."

    OK...I've been away and missed out on this... Congratulations! A big decision for a long time Audi loyalist.
  • audirulesaudirules Member Posts: 5
    Why do you guys like these asian cars? At this price point? What value do they provide to have such a sticker. Not one has real wood (completely through-out the vehicle,) Not one uses all metal trim (versus chromed plastic,) and not one has leather that measures more that 1.5 MM in thickness (which means fade and wear in less that 9K miles.)

    Obviously from my name you can deduce that I am a german car fan. Especially Audi. I feel that any car over $25K should give performance AND quality.

    The thing is that an Asian car is made by or approved for production by a guy that gets on a rail train and rides to work each morning amid thousands of other guys. He therefore designs a car that is refined, quiet, smooth, and devoid of "distractions."

    A german engineer drinks his coffee, gets in his car, and drives at speeds in excess of 90, on twisting roads to get to work. He then goes into his office and designs a car that will out handle most cars on the planet. Smooth acceleration, but still felt in your spine, hair tingling corning combined with utmost traction qualities, these you will find in a German car.

    Going to the store in your lexus or acura, one would think of the cd you will play on the way.

    Going to the store in your Audi or BMW, one would think of the corners and bumps, and how to take the longest way possible.

    Asians are great cars truly. But not for the price.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I think you would do just fine with an Asian car.. You talk about how the engineers design it, but you seem to be more worried about the trim and leather..

    I like German cars, and not once have I ever considered how many MM of thickness I'm getting with the leather..

    Shewwww.... back to the Audi boards please...

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  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Prepare to be flamed....(by others)

    I see you have just joined the boards. Read more posts and comparisons (and take a few test drives) before making such sweeping statements.

    Personally, I do try to take the longest and most winding way to work in my M35x (with real wood trim).
  • audirulesaudirules Member Posts: 5
    See this is what I mean.

    We are stuck in a "soda can, disposable" society.

    Lets start with the leather. I keep my cars to 100K+ miles, and I have several. The leather is important. At the greater thickness, support is improved. The seat shapes itself around the driver giving precision support in handling maneuvers. Plus WHO WOULD BUY A $50K CAR AND WANT TO REPLACE THE TORN RAGGED LEATHER 25000 miles IN IT????

    Then there is safety. Not one Asian car can withstand more that 1100lbs of pressure on the roof. Audi will not release a vehicle that withstand LESS than 12000lbs. Sheet metal is thicker that a HUMMER. Everything down to the thickness of the suspension pieces focus on safety

    Performance. Don't even go there. Try a 90 degree turn on wet pavement at 60 mph in ANY car and then do it in ANY audi. Good Luck! No comparison.

    My $$$ Buy Comfort, Safety, Extreme Drive Capabilities, And good looks. And real leather. And real wood. And fiber optics. And the highest grade metals. And the best service.

    Waste your money if you choose.
  • audirulesaudirules Member Posts: 5
    I sell cars for Gunn Infiniti in San Antonio Tx.

    The only real wood in you car is the In Dash peices. Everything else is fake.

    I deal with buying and selling Lux cars on a daily basis. Ask any "insider" question and I will verify this.

    M35x suffers on suspension quality (as do BMW and Merc) compaired to the non-all wheel drive models. Audi Quattro is extremely different in functionality and effect. And all Audi's are designed to be Quattro, whether they get the system or not. Other cars are designed without allwheel drive in mind and suffer for it.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    No, really, do a search for posts by markincincinnati and you will find plenty of reading material to answer your questions. Or search for posts by lexusguy.

    I believe that a major take-home point in many of these posts is that there are many sport sedan enthusiasts who are thrilled to have all of the options in cars available today. Many (such as myself) are very happy to have a car that performs and that (should be) reliable, rather than a car that performs which may or may not be in the shop (personal experience from German cars). No one is saying that German cars do not perform well or are unsafe.

    Many will take issue with your statements regarding the leather turning into rags at 25k, though. Ask Lexus owners with 150k on their cars.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Maybe you could expound on the differences between the the Haldex and Torsen systems that Audi currently uses, but labels both Quattro?

    And then, tell us how the FWD based Audis are somehow inherently better handling than the RWD based Lexi and Infinitis?

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  • kfhmailkfhmail Member Posts: 199
    This not a "flame" at you audirules....

    These are comments for anyone...

    Many many many people in Germany (engineers included) also take a train or the bus to work, plus many of them ride a bike. Just go to most any plant/business in Germany and you will see rows and rows of bicycles that the employees ride.

    Also, you do not need to understand why people like high priced Asian cars....it is up to each individual...EVERYONE is DIFFERENT...some like performance, some like ride, some like the looks of the car, some like the nameplate, some like quality, and some like various combinations of performance, ride, quality, and looks.

    Just enjoy whatever car you like and everyone should keep an open mind to other people's likes...

    Other...

    What car competes against other cars is purely up to the person that is doing the comparison.

    If I want to compare a Chevy against a Buick, against a Jag, against an Infiniti, against an Acura...then these cars compete against each other IMHO.

    Yes, in my world a $25,000 car can compete against a $50,000 car. It just depends on what I like...then I decide if there is $25,000 difference in my opinion.

    Not everyone cars about how fast a car can go from zero to 60. If someone does then that is what they should use as a comparison factor and weight it accordingly.
  • audirulesaudirules Member Posts: 5
    Haldex is used in the transversed mount TT's due to the layout of the drive train. (and lack of room.)

    The torsen is used in all other models and thought larger that the haldex, is much superior.

    A rear drive car has one drive wheel. BAD IDEA FOR TRACTION, good idea (physics) for propulsion (compared to front drive). UNLESS a car has the audi (expcept TT) system of FrontTrac were Both front wheels are powered. Then you have increased stability and propulsion. 2 is always better that 1. 4 is the best.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Not when the two are upfront..

    I see that you are really just an Audi/Volkswagen fan.. .not a true German performance fan.. That is okay.. Just wanted to know where you are coming from....

    How do you ever hide your disdain for your Infiniti customers?

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  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "The only real wood in you car is the In Dash peices. Everything else is fake."

    The Infiniti brochure states that all of the wood (dash and doors) used in the M are genuine rosewood. It also states that all the aluminum used in the M are genuine aluminum. So either Infiniti is lying or you are misinformed. I would believe in the latter. If you really are an Infiniti salesman, I feel sorry for Gunn Infiniti.

    Buyer comes into Gunn Infiniti. Audirules tells him: "Why do you guys like these asian cars? At this price point? What value do they provide to have such a sticker?" and yells "WHO WOULD BUY A $50K CAR AND WANT TO REPLACE THE TORN RAGGED LEATHER 25000 miles IN IT????" Buyer leaves, badly shaken from the experience.

    Nothing wrong with giving the A6 some love, as it is a fine car, although it is struggling in the US in sales... barely more than the RL, which only comes in a fully loaded V6 configuration.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My experience with Audis may not be as deep or as broad as yours, I suspect however, my experience qualifies me to make a comment -- perhaps even some explanation, not a defense exactly but at least a remark.

    The Japanese cars, based on my limited experience with THEM, from the standpoint of a customer who leases -- are relatively speaking "bargains." Many posts here (some of them mine) wax long and loud on the TOC (total ownership cost proposition) that seemed to creep into the latest generation of Audi cars -- the Audis are (or were for the first 3 months of 2005 and the last couple months of 2004) way more expensive than the "crowd" they are usually compared with.

    For this post, I will not cite chapter and verse (you're welcome) the configurations of A6's and A4's that I ran, vetted on Audis web site and with my long term (sold me 27 Audis since 1977) dealer. I ran similar "build and price" configurations for some Audi competitors both from Europe and Japan -- Audi was the most expensive when contented equally (as much as possible) and when priced equally (content not equal).

    Indeed a $57,000+ BMW cost about $120 a month LESS than a $53,000 Audi and a $53,000 BMW was close to $200 a month LESS than the Audi.

    I test drove an Acura (TL), 3 BMW's, 3 Infinitis, 4 Mercedes, 1 Lexus, 3 Cadillacs, a Jeep Grand with a Hemi even, 2 or 3 Volvos and went through the Cincinnati Auto Show with a fine tooth comb. I have driven the A6 3.2 and 4.2, the 2004 & 5 S4, the 2005 1.8T/3.0 A4 and 2005.5 A4 2.0T and 3.2. We have been through the Audi factory in Ingolstadt 6 times and through the Audi driving school in Seefeld, Austria 4 times, I am a member in good standing of the Audi Car Club (nee Quattro Club).

    My wife and I packed a lunch on more than one weekend and "made the day of it" (testdriving that is). The Audis in many ways, after so many Audis since 1977, were often our "I wish" cars (as in I wish they didn't cost so much more than the BMW or the Infiniti, because the Audi competition, after these 25 years of quattro, has gotten damn good).

    Our "romance" with Audi was so strong that we decided to pay [a little bit] more for a lesser Audi on at least two occasions -- but not $100 a month more for a less expensive, lower content car.

    We ended up spending just under $97,000 on a new BMW X3 3.0 ($46,000+) -- being built as I type this and $50,360 on a new Infiniti M35X (also being built as I type this).

    The comparable (in price or from our perspective driving) cars from Audi were $44K for an Audi A4 3.2 (similar to the BMW, that is) and $53K for an Audi A6 3.2 -- the actual acquisition costs (36 month leases) were several hundred dollars more (for the Audis had we gone with them) in combination.

    We test drove these cars often back to back over the exact same test circuit -- they were VERY similar. The M is in some ways even tighter than the A6 (with the sport package on the A6), the M is certainly more powerful and quicker. The A6 has, in my mind, a nicer interior -- but not THAT much nicer. And so on and on we kept finding that we would have -- out of loyalty, not logic -- paid slightly more for a lower performing and lesser contented car (the Audi). But such an option was NOT available to us.

    The best deals of all would have been the BMW X3 3.0 and a BMW 530i (which would have been another $6,000 over the M's MSRP).

    We agonized (even though car shopping can be fun -- if done right it IS work) over this decision for almost 6 months. This time period gave us the opportunity to test these cars in parts of the Fall, Winter and Spring seasons. We were not constrained by our need to "get a car this weekend" -- heck we had over 10 months to go on our leases when we started this process.

    And, we were 99.999% certain that NOTHING could pull us away from Audi.

    The emotional pull of our history with Audi was actually exceeded by the combination of our obsessive test drives and research and finally the "value proposition."

    A lot of folks here do not think as highly of Audis as you and I apparently do -- this does not make them or us correct (I can't believe I'm saying this). I invite and urge anyone who is looking at the ~$50K Premium Performance "suspects" (and there are about 7 or 8 serious contenders) to take some very serious test drives, read the reviews, pull the TOC data and "pay your money."

    Virtually none of these 7 or 8 cars (with the exception of Jaguar and Volvo, perhaps) are clunkers -- they (from what my butt can tell) have become more alike with the newest iterations than different. The Audi has become more luxurious (and more pricey and lower in performance than the outgoing generation for MORE MONEY!), the Lexus more (well, at little) performance oriented, Infiniti seems to be on the way to finding its voice as the sportiest Japanese Premium Performance offering and Acura (IMHO) is a value leader in the Performance Lux group (assuming you like every do dad STANDARD). BMW remains somewhat of the "car" the other's aspire to be and Mercedes still seems to exude "big bucks" quality (despite reports to the contrary). Jag is in serious need of an injection of something (money perhaps?) and will someone please put Saab out of its misery? Volvo could muddle along or could be the dark horse -- right now I'm kinda in the muddle along camp of believers.

    Audi used to rule -- that I grant. Audi is "a" leader of the pack -- it is unfortunately for those of us "fans of the brand" (I have THE underwear) no longer "the" leader of the pack.

    Check these cars out for yourself -- if you remain convinced the Audi is superior, you'll get no push back from me. Perhaps a little envy and the knowledge that next time (3 years) I'll give Audi yet another chance to win my business back.

    Now what is this about the thickness of the leather, again? I've been reading 1,000's of posts and I don't see much of anything about the fit, finish and durability of Japanese Prem/Perf car seats! 'Splain it to me.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Big news from Lexus---major changes in the winds for the soon to be called LS 460, including a long-wheelbase version and a hybrid version. The vehicle hits the market in fall 2006 as a replacement for the current LS 430.

    The hybrid version of the LS 460 will be fitted with a gasoline-electric powertrain with a V8 engine, said to be the first by any automaker. The hybrid sedan will be called the LS 600hL, which refers to the equivalent power of a 6.0-liter engine when the V8 gas engine is mated to an electric motor.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Wow. Now if they fire the current stylists and get someone who isn't given the orders to copy someone else. . .then they'll have cachet.
  • audirulesaudirules Member Posts: 5
    The wood through the rest of the car is a paper thin slice that is bendable like paper and glued to plastic. This cuts the price down from shapeing solid blocks of wood. The trim dash is aluminium, but not the steering wheel. Infiniti says "aluminium through out the car" not "all the metallic pieces are aluminium". Most of the metal looking items are indeed plastic (Example door handles).

    You may think sales of the A6 are down by looking at the number of sales...truth is that, with only two factorys putting out all thier cars, Audi's are a limited product. Dealerships average a 48hr turn around on the A6's hitting the lots. And the v8 version has a 5 month waiting list as we speak...I know, I ordered one!
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Do the LWB and hybrid versions hit the market at the same time as the base 460?
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    "Sheet metal is thicker that a HUMMER."

    REALLY!

    I'm in Iraq and the Hummers around me can stop an RPG, shrapnel from an IED or plain old bullets. Unfortunately sometimes they fail and I go to work but you get the point. When was the last time you tries that with an A6. :D

    Obviously being a wise a__ here and you probably are talking about the rebodied Tahoe (IMO crap!) but you make some statements which are nothing more than opinions. Did you look at the reliability records for the Audi product line? It's not stellar. My local European Car Specialist said to stay clear of any Audi that is more than 5 years old because the minor things start to go bad and it will nickel and dime you to death.

    Audis are nice cars and they would make a really nice lease vehicle but buying them for the long haul seems perilous especially for a family car.

    We all see cars differently and I really like the GS300/430 or the M35/M45 more for their reliability and value along with the performance. The Audi is not even on the screen for me. BMW is better. Mercedes is off the screen too.

    All my opinion though.

    Capt. Phil
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My dealership sells about 50 cars per month -- they are an exclusive Audi only dealership. There are two in Cincinnati, both stand alones. I do not know how the other dealership is doing. The Dayton Ohio dealership (1) sells 10 Audis a month.

    The dealer that I have been buying from through my current 2 Audis (both 2003's) claims to have 30 A6's on hand and more in port and even more on a boat.

    The number of A8s they have is probably 4 or 5 considering that there are 2 on the showroom floor (one L one short). I have no clue as to their inventory in total. Well they do have one A3. Anyway, I would hardly say the A6's are flying out the door with a 48 hour turn around. But we are in just exiting recession Ohio.

    Audis generally have a 3+ month wait -- I have ordered most of my 27 Audi cars over the years (one took over a year, our first TT and my 1997 A8, ordered in 1996 took over 5 months, so that does not seem all that out of line considering the thought was 90% 3.2's and 10% 4.2's were estimated for 2005.)

    Unfortunately the main limiting factor is not simply supply it is also demand. I believe the only "segment" car that the A6 outsells is the Acura RL (and around here at least the Jaguar -- any Jaguar). The BMW 5 is still whipping Audi's butt sales wise.

    Cincinnati is an Audi town (Zinzinnati) and a BMW town -- according to my dealer, also my long term friend, BMW outsells Audis by 3 to 1 here. I dunno if that is nationwide, but that is his local evaluation of the market.

    Out of curiosity how did you come to be such an "Audi Rules" kind of person -- it is refreshing for a change to not have to feel that I need to rush to defend Audi from every angle.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    With all the love and money I have put into Audis, I can indeed confirm, that Audis are BREATHTAKINGLY expensive to keep outside of the "Audi Advantage" -- indeed mere mortals cannot afford to repair them without the kind assistance of the Audi implied warranty -- this kind assistance has become more rare, since Audi is supporting VW these days.

    I have a 2.7T in my allroad -- when I read and learn about the cost of a turbo failure, it is, to repeat: BREATHTAKING.

    Audis are great driving cars, wonderful fit and finish but thus far in their US history they can never be accused of long term reliability. This is in the process of change -- but even my dealer who, like me, bleeds little Audi rings, says the 2005 A6's have had many minor first year glitches and says (in private to me) for MY money, Mark, I would get a leftover A6 4.2 sport (MY 2004). He also believes the new A4, however, to be better than the B6's -- and the allroads, judging by mine, are darn near bullet proof (not literally of course).

    Audi does not equal reliability, it does however equal performance, fun, and safety.

    Hey, "my girlfriend just broke up with me but there's a cold quart of milk and a fresh package of Chip's Ahoy on the table. . .two outta three ain't bad." -- John Pousette-Dart
  • aggie76aggie76 Member Posts: 266
    Can you give us the details on where you heard or saw this news? Too many rumors out there for someone to suddenly say these are the changes.
  • florida1florida1 Member Posts: 42
    I'm not sure why I keep reading suggestions that Infinity finally nailed their interior issues with the new M.

    I'm in the market for a new car: A6, GS430, 545i and held out in anticipation of the new M. I've now driven an M twice and really wanted to like it. Especially, given the hype regarding its performance etc---I found the performance to be as advertised but the interiors to be unquestionably sub-par to the competetion. The materials and craftmenship pale in comparison to not just Audi but all the others. The inside is not nearlly as refined and in fact marginal---The first M45 sport I tested had a gap between the what seems like faux wood trim and the gear shift--enough to slide a quarter down into----I really wanted to like it so I went and test drove another. I felt like I would have to be in denial to believe that the interior quality of the Infinty was even in "the ball park" in order to rationalize the comparisons

    It's the car for someone who's buying decision is exclusivly made on performance---

    In my opinion there is a dramatic differnce--it would be like buying a Timex over a Rolex because the Timex was waterproof to 50 feet deeper than the Rolex---
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I pretty much agree. I have until early August. I also drove the M several times and really wanted to like it. But the rosewood in the M looks like cardboard. Turned me right off. Also found the suspension a little too jarring (non-sport as well as sport).
    I drove the 545 and just found it too gimmicky-flip the turn signal and it never goes off? Too much to learn. No thanks.
    The GS 430 I thought handled nicely but my left leg was always up against the door. Plus the small sunroof and ridiculously small trunk were turn-offs for such an expensive vehicle.
    I will test drive the new 330i in a few weeks. May be the one.
    What I really did like but know it is so impractical and gets horrible mileage was the X5 4.4 which I drove last week. Fantastic interior and seats, no idrive, huge side mirrors(best I have seen on a BMW) and a magnificent sunroof that has to be experienced to be believed-they call it panoramic and that is no joke! I just may get this one. My wife and I both felt totally exhilarated in this one-the only car we both agreed on in a positive way.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I'm sorry but did you say that the M's interior pales in comparison to the 545i?

    Did you really mean that? I found the 5's interior to be painfully bland and poorly designed from a functional perspective. It evokes the minimalism of bauhaus yet leaves out the functionality part. And when is BMW going to get rid of the cheesy numbered temp dials already? This is the digital age, is it not? The depressingly plain presentation aside, there is virtually no center storage, and who at BMW thought that making you reach across the cabin for dash-mounted cup holders was a good idea?

    You are the first I've heard say that the 5 has a better interior than any car in this class. I'll give you that the Audi and the Lexus have very nice interiors, especially the Audi. I'll also concede that Infiniti went for a dramatic design with the M's dash, but it is one that I find attractive. I could do without some of the LARGER BUTTONS but IMO it makes the 5 series interior look underwhelming at best.
  • marko7marko7 Member Posts: 63
    While this is strictly not on the topic of sedans, it fits the general Japanese vs. Euro discussion...

    Being an M-series owner, after coming back from work the other night I find a nifty looking, spherically shaped silver package in my mailbox. It's from M-B. Open it and inside find some glossy leaflets about the new 2006 M-series, inviting to check it out on their website with a special access code. As a gift, a cool looking 2006 M-series MBUSA pen is included. Attached to a black glossy cardboard, this writing appliance is silver, thick, made of metal and has a great grid-like grip.

    Wife comes home, sees it and instantly screams gimme, gimme, can I have it. I oblige, since she has a lot to write that night. We try it out by pressing a button, turns out this thing is a very sophisticated mechanical pencil that first projects a conical tip like a Parker ballpoint pen, then ejects the lead insert. Wow!

    I check back with her an hour later, how is it going with the new pencil, honey? She is all pissed off--the thing plain disintegrated on her into pieces and she spent quite some time putting it back together. Sort of like our ML, isn't it?

    Glad I bought an extended 4-yr warranty on the ML. It is still paying off. The latest is the fuel gauge shows anywhere between half and three-quarters when you pour a tankful, depending on the phase of the moon. Glad at least the trip computer is working after being replaced, so that I can tell roughly how much gas is left.

    I'd rather stick to the Japanese product going forward, thank you.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The best interiors so say many of us here and in the car magazines is the Audi. The preference some have for glossy looking wood versus the matte wood accounts for some of your issues, I assume. Being an Audi owner for so many years, i can't remember the last time Audi had the flat finish (it was for several years -- I remember when Audi first went glossy, I was sure it was fake -- it wasn't).

    Some see the gloss wood as an invitation to finger prints. If I were given the choice, I would probably opt for glossy -- but maybe that is just because I am used to it.

    While I agree the refinement isn't up to Audi standards, it certainly can be argued (not just by me) to be way nicer than the BMW 5's of late. My wife just went for the new X3 and I was lectured here that the X3 had a plastic interior. Well, we finally went back to see what we must've missed -- my wife ordered her X3 with sport, premium, birch wood and all the toys ( cranking it to over $46K) -- we specifically looked at a BOB X3 2.5 with no options -- the seats looked awful, the trim was out of place and the accents were missing. All part of either the Prem or Sport package I assume.

    I can't comment or attest to the previous statements about the thickness of the leather on the M35X's seats, but with the Journey Package the seats seem to be of the appropriate fit and finish -- if one is NOT expecting an Audi.

    The thing about opinions is we all have them; I agree with some of your observations about the M, but "marginal?" Wow, that's a biggie -- especially when one must assume you have seen up close and personal a 2005 BMW 530 interior.

    The Infiniti is the one that feels most German to me -- if that means harsh or stiff or if it just mean "performance" -- I'll accept that.

    My wife, a staunch stick shift person and apparently an even more staunch ONLY German cars will do fan -- thinks the Infiniti is too plush, too quiet, too isolating -- of course she thought the new A6 was a step backwards in that regard (too luxurious, too un-Audi-like for her tastes).

    Without this forum, I am virtually certain I would have two new Audis in my garage -- but this forum forced me to check out the competition and damn if the competition didn't prove that it had come a long way since the last time I even considered a non-Audi (1988, as I recall).

    To each his/her own.

    The leather thickness thing DOES bother me a bit, I must admit.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    There is a small article on Edmunds, although it doesn't go into details other than to confirm that Toyota has filed for these changes with the U.S. Patent office.

    Below is the link...

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=105398

    There is also an article on Automotive News online, but you have to pay to read the full story.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Why do you guys like these asian cars? At this price point? What value do they provide to have such a sticker. Not one has real wood (completely through-out the vehicle,) Not one uses all metal trim (versus chromed plastic,) and not one has leather that measures more that 1.5 MM in thickness (which means fade and wear in less that 9K miles.)"

    Actually, EVERY Lexus, even the ES330, has real wood. (Well except the IS300 of course). Did you know that the wood in a Lexus all comes from the same tree? They dont like to mix grains. While I cant tell you the thickness of the leather, I use Mothers leather conditioners on my seats and the leather in my '96 LS400 looked pretty new when I sold it. Easily held up as well as the conolly in my Jaguars.

    As for the rest of your "asian cars this, asian cars that" posts, I'd like to see one credible source for this information. Lexus is pretty fanatical about safety, I dont know if they still do but for awhile they had a seperate website called "Lexussafety.com" with stories from owners who hit walls at 70mph and walked away without a scratch. A roof that can only stand 1100lbs of pressure in a 4,000lb car is going to collapse, and fast. That doesnt sound like the kind of thing Lexus would consider "acceptable". Its perfectly fine if you dont want to buy asian, go right ahead and dont buy one. They'll get by without your sale. However, lets try and stop making up stuff to make Audi look better, eh?
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Yeah I agree lexusguy, this: "Not one Asian car can withstand more that 1100lbs of pressure on the roof" was especially ridiculous.

    If that were true, EVERY Asian car that rolls belly up would immediately get squashed under its own weight.

    The A6 is a fine car and a pretty good value. I like the exterior design too, huge mouth and all. The two main reservations I have with it is that the V6 is too sluggish compared to its competitors, and potential reliability issues.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Also, considering the designers and engineers who made the M45 all apparently take the light rail to work, I'd say they did a pretty bang up job. The M outbraked the A6 4.2, punished it on the skidpad, mauled it on the lane change, and beat it like a rented mule in every acceleration test. I was particularly surprised by the A6's poor braking performance, 2nd worst in in the C&D test. I have bashed Acura for the RL's brakes, and the RL stopped 10 feet SHORTER than the A6. "The M45 rocks, game over".
  • grylexis300grylexis300 Member Posts: 53
    AUDIRULES-

    so enamored with the audi A6 aren't we???? nice car but let's not get crazy here. just because some folks feel like audis are the perfect fit for them doesn't necessarily mean AUDI actually makes better cars than lexus/toyota. give me a break. if AUDI REALLY DID MAKE BETTER CARS THAN LEXUS i think you would see it reflected in the very UNBIASED CONSUMER REPORTS. you clowns can say whatever you want about lexus but bottom line is this. best reliablity in the business, best value, no rip-off prices like what you see coming out of germany. if you don't like the cars looks or wood trim buy an audi. buy a tow truck too while you're at it.

    what is all this crappola about wood trim and asian cars not being able to withstand 1100lbs of pressure on the roof??? this is the most ridiculous stuff ever. are you insecure folks sick of reading about how the LS430 is number one again??? sick of the toyota tundra being number one rated in consumer reports?? sick of the lexus RX330 dominating the reviews followed by the honda pilot??? sick of the acura TL and TSX smoking the audi A6 and A4 in sales??? sick of seeing all the japanese cars dominate like the odyssey, siena, corolla, civic, accord and camry?? i mean if you are bleeding german cars, Ford cars, GM, and the like your whole life, it can start to hurt after awhile. waaaaaaa.

    and let's not forget the new GS from lexus. if this thing keeps selling like it is along with the new IS you might as well tell Audi to pack their bags and take it on the chin one more year AGAIN.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    This post from the 2007 Lexus LS forum contains a link to the AutoWeek article:
    lenscap, "2007 Lexus LS" #190, 18 Apr 2005 11:14 am
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I question whether Audirules' figures came from a reputable source.

    Below are some data from the reputable Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Rollover deaths (per million registered years):

    lexus rx - 0
    mercedes e - 0
    mercedes s - 0
    bmw 5 - 4
    acura mdx - 6
    bmw 3 - 8
    bmw z3 - 12
    bmw x5 - 15
    acura tl - 15
    infiniti g20 - 15

    The full data are here: http://www.iihs.org/srpdfs/sr4003.pdf
    Many models (and entire brands, like Audi) are not represented, apparently because IIHS only included models (1999-2002) with at least 120k registered vehicle years.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    The funny thing about this dashboard discussion is that if you look at the 5 series dash next to the M dash they actually look very similar. In fact, I'd go so far to say that Infiniti had the 5 dash in mind when they designed the dash for the M. By the way, the dash mounted cup holders work just fine for me. Cheezy numbered dials? You'd really rather have digital readouts? To each their own I guess. Man, BMW takes heat for iDrive because everyone mistakenly thinks you have to use it to adjust the AC and heat. Now the dials aren't good enough either?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There's really not much of a point in arguing these kinds of stats. The SC430 set JD Power records for highest IQ ever. VW, on the other hand, ranks with Hummer and Land Rover for worst in the industry. I doubt Mr. "Infiniti salesman" audirules will care about any of that though. Some people have just made up their minds that Japanese cars suck and will refuse to even consider that some might be good, no matter the evidence.
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