Luxury Performance Sedans

shipo · January 2006

I said that sort of tongue in cheek, however, sort of not as well. There is a certain "thing" that happens to many drivers (but certainly not even the majority) once they master driving a car with a stick. For folks like them (me, Mark, Dewey...), not even horrendous NYC, Cincinnati, or Toronto traffic can put even so much as a patina on our enjoyment of stirring our own. I truly believe that if more folks spent the time to learn how to drive a stick, we would see MANY more converts who demand a car with a stick and not even SMGs and DSGs will be good enough.

Best Regards,
Shipo

erickpl · January 2006

didn't most cars start out with manual transmissions and people get lazy and not want to have to do it themselves?

Are you saying you would like to see a trend to more driver involvement and driver situational awareness?

Blasphemy!

hehehe

I'd like to see that too. When I offroad, while and automatic would make things easier when crawling over obstacles, I prefer the interaction of 3 pedals and 1 hand on the gear lever and hand throttle.

Spirited driving should always be done with the squishy stuff between the ears in control, not the hard-wired computer and software.

-Paul

moxie · January 2006

Couldn't agree more. Amen !

dhamilton · January 2006

I would like to say many nasty things about people who refuse to drive anything other than automatics.... but I won't. I will say that I prefer a true manual for reasons that Shipo has stated so well, " You have a heightened level of involvement with the driving experience". It was sad to see every German offering at the Houston auto show with auto tranny's only on display {Audi,Bmw,Porsche} Standing next to the new Cayman I witnessed 3 different parties ask whether or not in came in auto. I threw up all over them :P Just kidding.
What do you do. I recently read a quote by Michael Schumacher that he would prefer to go back to a 3 pedal set up in his F1 car. Auto trannies are the opiate of the masses.
Mark, the new Q7 is gorgeous

markcincinnati · January 2006

The Q7 looks good in pictures and on the DVD they sent me.

But, no manual.

The issue or AN issue must have something to do with age. I am 54. I learned to drive a VW "bug" my dad had a second car a Plymouth Valiant with a "slant 6" and "three on the tree," and when he moved up to a Plymouth 318 V8 Satellite I graduated from the VW to the Valiant -- so I cut my teeth on stick shifts.

The "fancy" or lux cars (American of course) of the day were all and always automatics (which was funny since they all came with sticks but never were ordered with them unless they were for police use.)

As time has passed, I think it is safe to say that some under 40 have never driven anything but autos, the number increases when the age drops to 30 and increases again when you go under 25 year olds.

The wash techs at the local full service car washes here in River City DO NOT, CAN NOT, WILL NOT drive a stick shift car -- most of them are young men, probably under 25.

Usually if I take my wife's X3 to one of these places the wash pro has to get the manager to put the car into the wash tunnel.

If you were selling cars, why would you fight the customer who wouldn't even try a stick?

Imagine the effort required first to convince the noobie to drive a stick (grind, grind, stall, stammer) and then somehow make this new stick driver think that this is more fun, provides better performance, economy and control and hence can lead to more safety.

Tough sell.

Some people won't eat a certain food since it "looks like it tastes bad," but if you ever get them to try it sometimes they love it.

My secretary wouldn't eat lobsters cause they look icky.

I bought her a lobster tail and got rid of the shell -- ta da she loves lobster.

More's the pity, more's the pity.

Sticks are kinda, sorta, like, well, er. . .similar.

Tough sell. :surprise:

james27 · January 2006

My first 5 cars were sticks. With the parking lots for streets around where I live, the occasions when a stick is enough fun to consider justifying the pain of miles of stop and go just isn't worth it. Now, if I lived somewhere else, I'd consider it. Some of the cars in this class just aren't set up for successful manuals - I much prefer a good hand brake when I've got a manual transmission...many of these cars no longer have one making a manual transmission a pain in hilly areas.

lexusguy · January 2006

Yeah, I think C&D mentioned the C350's foot pedal E-brake in their review. Pretty half-hearted.

esf · January 2006

My wife has an '04 Lexus RX330, and we're thinking of getting a new car in a couple of years.

I love the Q7- but she doesn't want the Q7. She's going for something more "sophisticated".

We also don't want three Audis in the household (I already own an S4 Cabriolet and an A3 for winter) because that would be extremely creepy. (And both of the Audis we already own are blue!)

I'm thinking of Mercedes-Benz, and she would like an E-Class. My son also recommends the CLS.

Any thoughts, and any cars besides a BMW that you can recommend (I like one, but wouldn't want to own one)?

cmybimmergo · January 2006

I completely agree. I remember my dad always saying there was *something* about driving a stick. (At 85, I forgive him his automatic.) When I was a kid, I would spend hours riding my bike up and down the block, imagining that I was driving a stick. When I finally learned to drive one--an Audi 2000, at rush hour on a busy six-lane road in Virginia, immediately after which I took said car to Pennsylvania for a dealer exchange--I was completely hooked. Every car since has been a 5 spd--and in fact my obsession with sticks and performance was what led me to buy my 5er. My daughter is now learning to drive

, and she is learning on a 5 spd manual (I insisted). Someday, she will thank me. Right now, she's just terrified of the whole driving thing.

lexusguy · February 2006

Any reason she's unhappy with the RX? Does she have any thoughts on the GS?

bjbird2 · February 2006

This may have been posted already, but JD Powers dependability study, an industry benchmark that tracks model 2002 cars and trucks by problems reported per 100 vehicles, ranks them:

1) Lexus 139
2) Porsche 149
3) Lincoln 151
4) Buick 163
5) Cadillac 175
6) Infiniti 178
7) Toyota 194
8) Mercury 195
9) Honda 201
10) Acura 203

It's surprising how well the American brands fared, actually beating out Toyota and Honda.
Perhaps the owners aren't as critical of their vehicles.

markcincinnati · February 2006

There have been some pretty interesting discussions and assertions about American cars in the aftermath of the Ford announcments recently.

I will attempt to present them unfiltered:

American cars have relatively few quality problems. They are currently in terms of build quality competitive. The Japanese saved the American Automobile Manufacturers and improved the quality of American made cars to the point that quality issues are not significant issues in the consumer's minds.

However, what is significant is "the products" themselves.

American car manufacturers build too many similar cars and still too many cars that while being of good to very good quality are not as desirable as the competition's.

Content configurations and current technology are also issues cited.

A new Northstar V8 equipped Buick Lucerne other than the "blue hair" factor (I represent that remark) has a four speed automatic. "Five speeds are expected," it is claimed. I have no way of knowing if this is true.

I do know that the car magazines really beat up GM for their old tech transmissions. Chrysler at least can use the 5spd from their sibling Mercedes. What does Ford use predominanty? Four speeds too?

I don't know, for certain, if this is part and parcel of what they were pontificating about, but we have been using a 2006 Trailblazer for a week while my wife's BMW is in the Body Shop for a door ding (right on the crease in the metal -- $600+ ouch!!!) -- this Chevy @ 9,000 miles on the OD and a stippie to boot is a decent car and feels as solid and quiet as anything I've been in regardless of where it is built.

I don't know if I would want one -- but I do know it seems very well made. It just seems to be really, uh, bland.

Way more bland than even the Lexus cars that are so reviewed as "too perfect" or "so perfect they are unengaging."

This Trailblazer makes a nap seem exciting, if you get my drift.

:confuse:

lexusguy · February 2006

"American cars have relatively few quality problems."

Thats a pretty sweeping statement, and for the most part, not really true. Buick and Lincoln are generally reliable. The rest of detroit iron.. not so much. Why do Buick and Lincoln have it together? I think its a combination of using the oldest parts GM and Ford have in their inventories, combined with owners that are VERY gentle on their cars.

tagman · February 2006

Agreed. Lincoln and Buick are not representative of the much bigger picture. BTW, that report is very old and dated at this point.

There have recently been some interesting questions raised about the reliability of the reliability statistics themselves. The JD Power stats do not always agree with the Consumers Reports stats, for example, and the real questions are "why" and "are EITHER of them correct?" I think that, like MANY STATISTICS, they should be taken with a grain of salt. They are an indication only, and not an authoritative final analysis.

Many statistics are only as good as the method in which they are compiled and the method in which they are represented, as they can often be manipulated either at the point of compilation or the point of representation.

Further, even if the reliability statistics are only to be used as a general guide, they do point out that the differences between some of the models are rather small and not as significant as some would have us believe. It's not so black and white as to say that since Lexus represents the most reliable vehicle, for example, that all the others are not a good choice. This is Lexus marketing . . . as they would have us believe that . . . and why not, if it's to their advantage.

So, what then is the reason for the different results from different studies? The reason is that the compilation method is different. The surveys are conducted utilizing different methods of gathering data, and often actual service records are not utilized, but a car owner's "opinions" are recorded, and that becomes the record. Also, there are issues of "money" in these surveys. For example, who is paid for the survey, or who is rewarded for the result of the survey, and can the survey be used in marketing for a price?

Further, there are the implications from voluntary recalls. What a shame it is to penalize a company statistically for making a voluntary recall, and then it shows up as a greater number of service issues. This puts backwards pressure on the manufacturers to do voluntary recalls. Instead voluntary recalls should be an important preventative method of keeping our cars safer and more reliable, not less reliable as the statistics would indicate. It's a twisted misrepresentation of reliability.

To sum up, consider how much weight you give to these reliability studies, and look at them CAREFULLY, if you are going to rely on them too heavily.

lexusguy · February 2006

The new S80 will offer a 311hp V8 with AWD, and Volvo's Four-C active suspension as on the S60R. What do you guys think? Should Germany and Japan be worried?

http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/large/SP32-20060131-204619.jpg

jrock65 · February 2006

January 2006 Sales  Midsize Luxury Sedans:

5 = 4,681
E = 2,465
GS = 1,978
M = 1,892
STS =
A6 = 1,617
RL = 773

tagman · February 2006

Of course not. lexusguy, you know that VOLVO can NEVER be a threat, just an alternative.

lexusguy · February 2006

We'll see. Never is a very long time. I plan on taking one out for a drive. Despite all of the new AWD entries in the LPS crowd, almost all of them are V6 only.

http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/large/SP32-20060131-204654.jpg?undefined-

http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/large/SP32-20060131-204757.jpg?undefined-

http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/large/SP32-20060131-204828.jpg?undefined- ">

bjbird2 · February 2006

"BTW, that report is very old and dated at this point."

Actually, the article in my paper says it's the JD Power 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study, so it can't be very old and dated, although it doesn't say what month it was done in 2005.

dewey · February 2006

Interesting stats.

I am just curious to know the Dependability numbers for BMW, MB and Audi?

Or even better could you provide the link to the site that has these stats?

Thanks

markcincinnati · February 2006

I don't rely on them at all. I am so skeptical indeed, that I [almost] literally think if CR likes it, I will avoid it.

Now, while that's almost true I cannot avoid seeing the ratings since they are touted so much.

Now we parse these things so much, "Initial Quality" -- is this different than "Quality after the first payment is made?"

It all depends on what the definition of "is" is sometimes.

And is quality the same a reliability and is reliability the same as durability?

The answer is "it all depends."

I have no idea, back to my temp Trailblazer, if the thing is reliable or durable. It "seems" at 9,000 miles to be of high quality which I would imagine would perhaps translate into some kind of durability rating. Too soon perhaps to make the connection that it will be reliable for certain.

I suspect it would be possible to have a durable and reliable vehicle that you felt was of very low quality.

My dad's 1966 Plymouth Valiant was durable and we beat the tar out of it -- it was, however, of the lowest quality I could imagine. But it took a lickin' and kept on tickin'

Today, I am wearing a somewhat inexpensive watch, a Tissot -- it looks attractive it probably will outlive me but I have a couple other watches that I believe to be of much higher quality (and they cost a lot more too), but I have no reason to believe they will be of any higher durability or reliability, in fact I have two automatic watches that are probably considerably more fragile.

Does this mechanical/quality/durability/reliability kind of view translate to cars? Is a Maybach (sp?) of higher quality or durability or reliability? Or is it simply of the highest quality but unreliable like so many here seem to attribute to Mercedes?

The fit and finish especially of the interior of my Audi is of equal to or higher than the best quality around (and this even if it is just an opinion is not limited to my personal opinion), but even if the Audi lovers and haters all agreed with that, well does that make it of greater quality, reliability or durability or perhaps just a style that is "it" at the moment?

I take it as a given that we all want higher durability and reliability and I assume we all want higher quality and higher performance and greater safety and even better efficiency.

Yet it often boils down to that old saw, you can have -- fill in the blank -- "very fast or high value or high quality" but you may pick only two.

Seems there is some correlation with cars, here. :surprise:

laurasdada · February 2006

One of my favorite anecdotes was that regarding "Initial Quality Survey" (and I don't remember if it was CR or JDP, JDP, I think...) was that the Hummer had owners complain of many "defects." One of the "defects" reported: Poor MPG!!!
Next survey: "IQ of People who Purchase a Hummer!" No offense, Hummer owners. Please don't run over my TL!

The Mini was cited for "small cupholders." Defect is in the eye of the beholder...

Mark: OT. I've got an Automatic Seiko chronograph, circa 1978. Still fully functional including day/date and chronograph functions. It still holds a charge longer than my newer Tag Heuer. Cars and watches, favorite toys for boys!

markcincinnati · February 2006

AUBURN HILLS, Mich.  Continuing the trend of sales increases from 2005, Audi of America, Inc. posted a 19.8% increase in sales for January 2006. Audi sold a total of 6,084 vehicles versus 5,077 vehicle sales in January 2005. Leading the sales gain for the month was the A6 with a total of 1,617, a 33.4% increase over last year. The A8 also had impressive gains with sales of 516 vehicles, a 44.5% increase over January 2005.

We are striving to make 2006 an all-time record-sales year for Audi of America, said Johan de Nysschen, Executive Vice President of Audi of America. With the addition of the A3 3.2 quattro premium compact and the upcoming Audi Q7 performance SUV, 2006 looks to be a very bright year for Audi.

OK, here is a question for the real fact finders here -- is there any available data that would tell the MODEL Name/number of the 5, E, GS, M & STS.

My dealer, as I have noted says "40%+ of the 5's are either 525xi's or 530xi's" -- I would think our climate has something to do with this, wonder what the overall numbers are, that is?

The M's sold here at the ONE Cincinnati dealer are "mostly" M35X's -- whatever that means.

And, "all I see" are Mercedes 4Matics here in River City.

Just wondering if such data points are "out there" for our consumption?

Thanks.

P.S. What happened to the RL?

bjbird2 · February 2006

The JD Powers survey I posted was not for initial quality, it was long term dependability, in which they bench-marked model year 2002 cars and trucks over a 3 year period.

jrock65 · February 2006

Lexus breaks it down between engine sizes, but not AWD/RWD.

BMW is the best in this regard. They have breakdowns of engine sizes, AWD/RWD, and sedan/wagon.

There is no question that the 5's sales increases came from the addition of AWD models and the M5.

None of the others provide breakdowns.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/02/01/209076.html

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/02/01/209082.html

lexusguy · February 2006

Indeed not a bright month for Acura. What happened to the E class? The M was only around 100 cars off of the GS. Anyone think Infiniti will beat Lexus in 2K6?

dewey · February 2006

No big concern for Acura. Acura's "Bread & Butter" cars are both the TL and TSX. Both models increased in sales versus last year. The TSX increased by over 40 percent. Based on those figures Acura is basking in the sun!

dewey · February 2006

Germans are taking over the LPS segment. Audi sales increased over 19 percent and BMW LPS sales increased almost 23 percent!

It appears buyers are willing to spend a premium price for European performance and handling. And I dont blame them.

hpowders · February 2006

Apparently so!
Sales of the E60 are up a whopping 42.8% since January 2005.

dewey · February 2006

What distinguishes the BMW E60 from the cars in the Japanese LPS segment is that aging makes the E60 more attractive. BMWs are similar to aged vintage wine while the Japanese alternatives are like aged Coca Cola past the expiry date. I can predict with 20/20 vision that the Lexus GS lose its sales momentum real soon.

tagman · February 2006

Good posts. The German cars are hititng Lexus hard in the midrange? hey, dewey, what if the new Toyota Camry is nice enough to take away Lexus sales as well. Toyota still wins, but I wonder if they could somehow end up competing against themselves? Hmmm . . . what am I thinking here?

lexusguy · February 2006

I seriously doubt GS shoppers would ever consider a Camry. You can buy two V6 Camrys for the price of a GS430. The new ES350 however...

tagman · February 2006

Yes, I agree, and find it interesting that there is such an apparent overlap. Or is this just my imagination? I suppose an "overlap" would make more sense than a "gap", in order to not lose potential buyers.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Wow!

BMW's are similar to aged vintage wine while . . . .?!?

I consider myself a German car fan -- but where did this come from?

Or perhaps a better question is what does this mean?

I may (probably do) agree that the Japanese cars appear to have "lost some steam" of late. But I find it difficult to ever count them down even if SOME of the Japanese mfgs seem to be producing somnambulant vehicles.

For the Lexus cars that have isolated and insulated and removed all the sharpness from the driving experience we are offered up some impressive Infintis who have threatened "to make the Germans irrelevant."

The Germans may be on a roll of late -- but the Japanese are hardly "flat cola."

Perhaps, again, the Japanese have turned around another car country by being sooo competitive.

Thank you Japanese mfgs, the German mfgs are grateful.

:shades:

hpowders · February 2006

Thank you for your incredible work ethic and passion for making reliable vehicles.

For thanks to you, BMW which was producing vehicles with questionable reliability and integrity, was forced to stand up and take notice.
Mediocrity couldn't cut it any more.

Now BMW has finally cleaned up its act and CR has taken notice by approving the 5 series as a reliable vehicle once again.

Let's see if Mercedes Benz can follow.

pat · February 2006

how sarcasm benefits this conversation...

Could we give up the antagonism that has recently developed and get back to the very interesting and useful conversations we've had over the last many months?

docnukem · February 2006

What distinguishes the BMW E60 from the cars in the Japanese LPS segment is that aging makes the E60 more attractive.

I thought that only applied to Buicks...

I had to read that twice because the first time made me think you were saying that BMW=Blue-hair Motor Works.

I am aging, but I must have bucked the trend by going with Infiniti.

(BTW, I do know what you were saying, it just sounded funny the first time).

dewey · February 2006

The Lexus GS I can understand, despite the fact that it is not my kind of car. The Lexus ES I will never understand especially now with the upcoming Camry hybrid and XLE and ofcourse the Toyota Avalon.

dewey · February 2006

Mark and Docnukem,

It was just a tongue in cheek post!

In fact the Japanese are invading my garage. My wife will be replacing her vintage 83 MB300D with a hybrid Toyota Camry( We were the first ones to place a deposit for the hybrid Camry at the Downtown Toyota dealership in Toronto)

And when I replace my BMW 3 series I will definitely be open minded about the other Japanese marques including Infiniti(my only pre-requisite is a third pedal). Who knows maybe a next generation Infiniti G or a AWD Acura TL? I find it a shame that the Infiniti M and the Acura RL do not have sticks.

dewey · February 2006

Pastor Sells Town's Oldest Church To Buy New BMW

BMW

The heading and link above proves that it is not mere marketing spin when BMWs are referred to as passionate vehicles. Even a member of the clergy could not resist the powerful temptations of driving a BMW. What more proof do you need then that?

tagman · February 2006

And when I replace my BMW 3 series I will definitely be open minded about the other Japanese marques ...

You crack me up . . . when the time really comes for you to replace your 3 series, there will only be one correct prescription for you . . .

3 letters.

lexusguy · February 2006

Stranger still is that it appears that the GS will be the last Lexus car to get upgraded to the 3.5L V6. The ES350 hits in Chicago, and Lexus is already running ads for the RX350 (now with 270hp, what's the reason for the RX400 again?)

That means that the ES350 will not only undercut the GS in price, but it will have 25 more horses, at least for the time being.

tagman · February 2006

There must be some changes in the wind with regards to the way they will tier these models, because that doesn't make a whole lot of sense on the surface. Maybe there is something in store for the GS?

lexusguy · February 2006

The GS will get the 3.5L V6 and 4.6L V8, I'm just not sure when. My guess (since there is no official word on the GS350 and 460 yet) is that they will add the GS450h for '07, and replace the standard engines for '08. If I were Lexus, I would also replace the IS250s for IS300s. The 250 isnt any faster than the 4-cyl Acura TSX.

tagman · February 2006

If I were Lexus, I would also replace the IS250s for IS300s. The 250 isnt any faster than the 4-cyl Acura TSX.

But then an IS300 would be too close to the 350. If anything, the 250 makes the 350 stand out, just from the difference between the two. And there are still those that won't cross the line and run to Acura. I don't know . . . I still think the 250 makes sense, but perhaps could use some other enhancements.

markcincinnati · February 2006

With the apparent forward and upward momentum of several of the cars in the LPS segment (speaking of units sold in January, 2006) what happened at Acura?

Price? Performance? Subventing (or lack thereof) of leases? Bad rep in the marketplace?

And what has happened in general to prices?

When I started down my current path, I had actually decided the Infiniti M was the way to go since it was substantially less money (than Audi which at the time I was trying hard to justify -- even with a willingness to pay a little more, the Audi was waaaay overpriced compared to a similar M and even a similarly priced BMW 530i.)

Just last week on a test drive of an M35X with a friend and co-worker, the Infiniti M35X equipped with Journey and Technology packages was over $100 more per month on a lease than the one I was quoted (which was identical) a year earlier. Interest rates? Demand so good they got cocky?

She ended up with a Cadillac CTS -- and yes I know they are not exactly the same class of car, but factoring in price the Inifiniti had increased in cost sharply over the past 10 months.

Did this kind of thing happen to Acura?

And in the prior posting of Jan '06 sales, the STS's numbers were missing. Are they now known?

And, the strength of the 5 series sales -- er, is THAT due to the renewal or continuation of BMW's aggressive subventing?

Heck, even Audi (US) is giddy with their year over year results.

What up Acura? :confuse:

hpowders · February 2006

Sounds like he should start the Church Of The New Materialist.

Wonder which model caused the transfiguration?

Could be the miraculous new 5 series.

Chris Bangle has indeed caused the tired looking 5 series to be reborn.

Sales up a scorching 42.8% since January 2005 in the USA.

Could be the new Bangle 7 series.

Up a respectable 23.3%.

Or the Bangle 3 series-up 21.5%.

Temptation may be a sin, but the Bangle stable is indeed hard to resist.

dewey · February 2006

Temptation may be a sin, but the Bangle stable is indeed hard to resist.

I dont know about that. Temptations are immediate and instinctual. While Banglism is more of an acquired taste that takes time to learn.

Have you noticed how long it took for mainstream opinion to favor Bangle styling. Unfortunately most people are slow learners and as hard as this may be to believe there are still a small minority out there who find Bangle curves ugly. I cant imagine why?

tagman · February 2006

hpowders - You won't have to buy only the BMW to get the Bangled look . . . the way it's revealing itself even on the new MB's and Lexus. It's out there . . . maybe not as pronouncedand . . . but it's out there . . . the styling influence is recognizable, and Chris gets the credit, no doubt. Amazing turnaround, IMO.

lexusguy · February 2006

As far as I know, Acura RL pricing has gone down, not up. The last time I was at the Acura dealership, there was no less than 12 of them just sitting around on the lot. I just dont think the demand is there. Its an awful lot of money for a TL with AWD.

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