The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

rfruth · February 2005

Yep the hybrid battery. (Honda or Toyota) Glad to hear they're so hard to get at but even here in Houston Tx where recycling isn't exactly common there are several places that would love to get their hands on one.

larsb · February 2005

Found the page where Toyota says they have never replaced a Hybrid battery due to "wear and tear"

http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.ht- ml

falconone · February 2005

Thanks for that link. Even though this information is from Toyota, I think it has a great deal of merit.

railroadjames · February 2005

I too am glad to be directed to this site. Thanks alot! Larsh, this is better than good.

Culliganman (appreciation to you)

electrictroy · February 2005

Any thief trying to steal a Hybrid Battery would probably end up dead, because of the ~200 Volt theft deterrant shocking system.

troy

yerth10 · February 2005

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=768- 1

New technology offers charging time in minutes instead of hours and 3 times the power.

Wonderful.

yerth10 · February 2005

According to
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.ht- ml

"second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. "

"Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%"

So far we thought that gas prices going up will make the hybrids get the Return on Investment, now the decline in battery prices will achieve it.

explorerx4 · February 2005

this is an interesting thought. cars are stolen for a whole lot less.

electrictroy · February 2005

As I said before, a thief trying to steal a battery would likely end-up fried by the 200+ Volts.

troy

helena · February 2005

hi troy,

I live in windsor, canada and i'm looking at buying a used 2001 prius that has 90000K on it and has just come back from lease to a single owner.it is priced at 16000 CAD negotiable. What is your opinion on its reliability and its price worth? What costs am I looking at in terms of maintenance and repairs and engine, transmission failures and importantly battery failures? Wat is the max life of that battery? u had said it will never fail...warranty is only for 8yrs and 5yrs is already up. pls reply at ur earliest.

helena

railroadjames · February 2005

You said that you have 3 yrs left on warrantee...check again... With 90K miles you've got just 10K left on the miles which will obviously come 1st. ANY car out of warrantee is subject to a considerable drop in book value.
As to the 1st Gen Prius, well, its still up for grabs as to the longevity of the hybrid system. I own a 2nd Gen Prius and think that Toyota makes & stands behind a quality product. As to the price of the 01 I'd say....check blue book, find anything in ads that show what they're selling for. Lastly walk away if you think they won't drop the price. You can always come back to RENEGOTIATE.
Personally I think it's too high a price unless they include a warrantee after the existing one runs out (2yr is reasonable).
PS read up on some these sites to get to know the car.
Culliganman

stevewa · February 2005

We have a 2002 with 56000 miles on it, no problems thus far.

Make sure it's been serviced for the various recall/TSB issues (Steering Rack, HV battery re-seal) and that it has had all its scheduled maintenance. Frankly apart from the battery there just isn't much to go wrong on these cars.

helena · February 2005

hi, thank you for your replies. What are the regular maintenance costs I'm looking at if I do buy the car? you say battery is the only problem....what problem do i anticiate? Have you had any battery problems? does the battery need changing or ?... Also every time we need servicing, oil change etc...does is have to be taken to toyota dealers or can it be done elsewhere as well? Do u know anyone in auto services in windsor, ON, canada, who are well versed in prius? How much price do u think I can bargain for this car? your information is very valuable. thank you so much.

stevewa · February 2005

Well, I'm in Portland, OR and I see a 2001 on a Toyota dealer's lot here with a $14K price in the window. I don't know how different things are in Canada, but usually used car prices here are extremely negotiable.

As far as servicing, there is only one extra item in the routine services compared to a "regular" car. The motor/electronics coolant system needs to be serviced at the same interval as the engine coolant. There is no service interval specified for the transaxle fluid (it suffers none of the loads found in a regular transmission so it should last a very long time). There is also no scheduled maintenance on the steering since it is not hydraulic.

Having said that some independent mechanics might hesitate to offer service on the Prius because it's an unknown quantity to them. I've found in general the service at my Toyota dealer to be reasonably priced so I have not been inclined to look elsewhere. They've also done a good job of going to bat for me on getting items taken care of under warranty.

I have had no battery trouble, however some people have had issues with the small, 12v auxiliary battery running down on them. The key to this appears to be getting the car out on the road for an extended drive (over 30 minutes) on a regular basis (weekly?) so the auxiliary battery has a chance to fully charge. An upgraded battery is available but if not under warranty the price is over $200 US by the time you buy the battery and the mounting kit. There was a Service Campaign on the HV battery because there were issues with the sealing of the terminals, but Toyota has yet to replace a HV battery pack due to it wearing out.

FWIW Consumer Reports has thus far rated Prius as above average in reliability. My experience concurs with this rating...

larsb · March 2005

New research makes a rechargable hybrid car battery which lasts 10 years:

http://tinyurl.com/5265y

whatf · March 2005

I'm still a little skeptical about the life expectancy of the batteries, if I'm going to pay that much for a car it better hold out as long or longer than a conventional car. I'm wondering why a vacuum inclosed flywheel couldn't be used as an alternate energy storage device where it could be magnetically accelerated by the engine driven generator and likewise magnetic energy from the flywheel induced in stator coils that feed the electric drive motors. Although a large flywheel would also act as a gyro which could be somewhat beneficial but could cause damage to the flywheel at high speed sudden turns. This could be compensated with computer controlled orifice on shock absorbers attached to the flywheel axes.

gagrice · March 2005

I'm still a little skeptical about the life expectancy of the batteries,

Welcome to the forum. I can understand your skepticism. That is one thing that has a good warranty. The $300 startup battery does not have a good warranty and have had to be replaced at the owners expense. The rest of your post I think you lost me, or I am getting blurry eyed from all the debating here on the forum...

gagrice · March 2005

New research makes a rechargable hybrid car battery which lasts 10 years:

I thought the current hybrid batteries were supposed to last 10 years. At least they better if the car is registered in CA. They have a mandatory 10 yr 150k mile warranty on any car they give the AT-PZEV rating to. That is supposed to cover any part that can keep the car from getting that rating. I would assume the entire hybrid drive train, cat convertor, electronics etc...

railroadjames · March 2005

(WHATF) You sure have a way with (techno) words don't you? I think all that having been said ...Maybe the doofloppy would work better with a whatchmacallit than the thigamajig bell housing next to the sofisticated [non-permissible content removed]. Or maybe......
P.S. In the great words of Paul Newman...(guess what movie) "What we have here is failure to communicate!"
Culliganman (sometimes ya just have to say #@%#*
(quoted TOM CRUISE)

Kirstie_H · March 2005

Wow, I don't understand any of whatf's post, but if it's going to get seriously technical, maybe the Advanced Course in Hybrid Engineering is a better topic.

(Cool Hand Luke)
kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

yerth10 · March 2005

According to 1 person in evworld.com, a Nickel battery discharges at the rate of 10% / day whereas a Lithium-Ion battery discharges at 5% / month.

So its time for automakers to consider Li-Ion before moving to plugins.

gagrice · March 2005

So its time for automakers to consider Li-Ion before moving to plugins.

I agree, and at that time I may be convinced of the worth of a hybrid. I want my 3 mile round trip to the store on Electric only. Until then an ICE only vehicle is a more reliable, practical solution.

yerth10 · March 2005

Until then an ICE only vehicle is a more reliable, practical solution.

No, until then automakers should be improving the hybrid system and battery.
Already the battery output have increased by 60 % with significant improvement in hybrid system. At 1 point, a battery that could move a vehicle for 20 miles will cost only 5K.

That extra money will be recovered by cheaper electricity rates.
Its alway one step at a time.

gagrice · March 2005

At 1 point, a battery that could move a vehicle for 20 miles will cost only 5K

According to Toyota Parts list for the Prius the battery is $4900, so what is the difference. If it will carry me 20 miles before the ICE kicks in that would be good enough for 99% of my driving.

stevewa · March 2005

If you are using the car every day or two what is the difference?

LiIon has some problems, like LIthium is a nasty material to deal with. NiMH batteries are non-toxic.

stevewa · March 2005

At another point, it'll cost a penny.

What does it cost today? And how much does it weigh? What good is a battery that will take you 20 miles if it makes the car to heavy to carry anything?

Car design is the art of compromises. You have to choose the point on the curve where the advantages balance out (or outstrip) the disadvantages. Carmakers have staffs that worry about this balance every day.

gagrice · March 2005

What good is a battery that will take you 20 miles if it makes the car to heavy to carry anything?

Not too good. That is part of my complaint with the current and proposed hybrids. They are not competitive with plain old ICE vehicles in any area except better gas mileage, maybe. They cannot haul or tow as much as their non-hybrid counterparts. Until the problems with energy storage are resolved they are just experimental and the owners are guinea pigs.

yerth10 · March 2005

Certainly everyone who has an auto is a Guinea Pig.

And those who have a big suv filling 30 gallons of fuel @ $2.1 is Guinea Pig Squared.
And that automaker who gambled on SUV / SUT (especially Hummer) is Guinea Pig Cubed.

We got to see how many battery modules are employed in RX400h. That will give us an idea of the level of improvement.

gagrice · March 2005

We got to see how many battery modules are employed in RX400h.

How is that important. If the car can only go a very short distance (under a mile) how does the cost justify the added cost, weight, lack of ability?

yerth10 · March 2005

If there is an improvement, either they will reduce modules for reduced cost or retain the same # of modules and capture more regenrative energy which may increase MPG.

electrictroy · March 2005

I agree. The hybrids aren't designed to do "real work". They are designed with tiny, weak engines for the ~80% of Americans who don't move anything heavier than their own body.

People who do "real work", like farming, should stick to the non-hybrid pickups and suvs, with some real power.

troy

gagrice · March 2005

80% of Americans who don't move anything heavier than their own body.

Exactly, so why buy a vehicle that just looks like it will do what you want, when a car will get better efficiency and haul people just fine? Of course that does not address the issue of having enough battery to haul us to the store and back. Then have the ability to plug the car into AC and beat OPEC out of all the money. Sounds like GM was just a few years ahead of the need and the technology with the EV-1.

electrictroy · March 2005

TROY: "80% of Americans don't move anything heavier than their own body."

GAGRICE: "Exactly, so why buy a vehicle that just looks like it will do what you want, when a car will get better efficiency and haul people just fine?"

==============================================

Because the Car Marketing Machine has very effectively convinced people that a "car is too small" and "you need a large SUV" to "navigate the urban jungle". You're right. 80% of Americans DON'T need an SUV, hybrid or otherwise. They only think they do.

They could get along just fine with a 4-door car (as did my parents & grandparents).

troy

yerth10 · March 2005

They could get along just fine with a 4-door car (as did my parents & grandparents).

That true, infact an even smaller hatchback like Scion xA, xB which has more cargo capacity than a much bigger sedan like Corolla, Civic will be better.

As gas prices increase, big suv's sales fall. Like the 30% fall in Jan-Feb 2005.

yerth10 · March 2005

A look at these webpages

Prius-I and Insight
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html

Prius-II and Civic Hybrid
http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html

Ford Escape Hybrid
http://www.sanyo.co.jp/koho/hypertext4-eng/0101news-e/0105-e.html

indicate that latest batteries are in cuboidal shape which has more volume than the older batteries which are in a cylindrical shape.

Similarly boxy vehicles like Escape, Highlander and a whole lot of CUV's have more volume (both passenger & cargo) than a comparitive sized sedan.

Maxlibu-Maxx & Malibu-Sedan is the best example.

gagrice · March 2005

Again naysayers battling back with empty hypothesis's. So far the batteries have been exemplary (near ten yrs problem free).

And again the naysayers take axception. My understanding is that the batteries in the Prius II are completely re-designed from the Classic. The Prius II is not two years old yet. The ONLY reason that Toyota backed the traction battery with an 8 or 10 year warranty was to get the EPA blessing on the AT-PZEV rating. Secondly exchanging individual cells in a battery is not a plug n play operation. Also if one cell goes bad the rest are not far behind. You forgot the 12 volt battery that costs $300 to replace. It has no long warranty, what's with that?

The good news is the warranty. The bad news is the resale when the warranty expires. We have already witnessed very low selling prices on Classic Prius with mileage close to 100k miles. Don't plan to get blue book on your Prius when it reaches that magic 100k mile mark. You will take a big hit if you decide to sell.

stevewa · March 2005

I for one don't intend to sell. We knew going in to the Prius purchase that it would be the kind of car that we'd run until the little wheels come off, because either it'd be totally outmoded due to improvements in the technology, or it'd be a passing fad and nobody would be interested in it. Fortunately it meets our needs and we've had zero problems with it, so I'm not worried at 58K about having to unload it. Of course we did spring for an extended warranty, something I almost never do, but even that does not last forever.

FWIW I don't expect to see individual battery modules replaced in the field. I do expect that when batteries are sent back to the factory for rebuilding that each module would be tested and sets of modules with like performance characteristics would be built into reconditioned packs.

Relatively few people have had trouble with the 12v battery. There is a TSB on the battery so if there is a problem during the b2b warranty period they can get it replaced. To my knowledge there has not been a problem with the 12v battery in the current model Prius, only the Classic, and then only in cars that are not driven for a 30 minute stretch every week or so.

larsb · March 2005

Another story which says Toyota's supply problem last year was "battery supply problems" and not "Toyota creating a false shortage" as some on this board have indicated:

"Last year, Toyota couldn't keep up with the number of orders received, according to Brown. The problem was battery production by Panasonic. The electronics company has since solved the crisis by opening a new plant specifically to make hybrid vehicle batteries."

http://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/articles/2005/03/27/news/news01.txt

electrictroy · March 2005

"My understanding is that the batteries in the Prius II are completely re-designed from the Classic. The Prius II is not two years old yet."

.

And then what? It's still a NiMH battery... same chemistry as the Old Prius... which has been around for 8 years.

troy

yerth10 · March 2005

http://www.cars.com/go/news/Story.jsp;jsessionid=PGRDZA2WL0JJDLAZGKLE2VQ?section=news&subj- ect=recent&story=032905storyaAW&referer=&aff=national

says

"improvements to the hybrid system for the SUVs are batteries that are 22 percent more compact and offer 30 percent greater power density than those in the Prius"

Battery technology is steadily improving and that is what is helping these heavy vehicles get near 30 MPG.

yerth10 · March 2005

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=8033

Toshiba develops Li-Ion battery that can be charged upto 80% in 1 minute.

Expected to come to market in 2006.

stevewa · March 2005

This would allow for much greater recapture of energy in regenerative braking. Today we're limited by how much current the batteries can accept.

john500 · March 2005

I remember several news articles about the original Prius battery. They alleged that if the original Prius was involved in a disabling crash, a HAZMAT (hazardous materials) crew had to be dispatched to clean up the battery contents. The Prius II is reported to be treated as a typical car (no HAZMAT crew) if it is involved in a crash. If the battery chemistry is the same, are the batteries now rupture-proof?

stevewa · March 2005

The 1st Generation Prius Emergency Responder Guide says:

"The NiMH HV battery pack contains sealed batteries that are similar
to rechargeable batteries used in laptop computers, cell phones, and
other consumer products. The electrolyte is absorbed in the cell
plates and will not normally leak out even if the battery is cracked. In
the unlikely event the electrolyte does leak, it can be easily
neutralized with a dilute boric acid solution or vinegar."

No mention of HAZMAT required.

The Escape emergency response guide says "The battery cells contain a base electrolyte (consisting of potassium hydroxide as the dominant active ingredient) that is absorbed in a special paper. The electrolyte will not leak from the battery under most conditions; however if the battery is crushed, it is possible for a small amount (drops) of electrolyte to leak."

and

"3. WHAT DO I DO IF THE HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY CASE HAS BEEN
RUPTURED?
 Just like any other battery - hose the area down with large amounts of water."

No mention of HAZMAT.

electrictroy · April 2005

"This would allow for much greater recapture of energy in regenerative braking."

.

More importantly, charging in 1 minute allows Electric Cars to have ***unlimited range***. You can drive ~250 miles, and then recharge your battery while drinking the 7-11 Coffee.

troy

stevedebi · April 2005

"More importantly, charging in 1 minute allows Electric Cars to have ***unlimited range***. You can drive ~250 miles, and then recharge your battery while drinking the 7-11 Coffee."

What? The Prius will only go a couple of miles on the main battery without having to charge it... The electric cars only went 80 miles or so...

electrictroy · April 2005

Current electric cars have limited ranges. They only go 250 miles max.

Then you have to wait 8 hours for recharge.

That's why Electrics are not practical for long trips to see grandma or the beach. Only a gasoline car can do it.

.
BUT if you can recharge the battery in only 1 minute, your electric car now has the same capability as a gasoline car.

troy

stevedebi · April 2005

"BUT if you can recharge the battery in only 1 minute, your electric car now has the same capability as a gasoline car. "

Close, but no cigar. The electric car has to stop, connect to an electric grid, then start back up. Gasoline cars can keep going until they run out of fuel, which is generally around 400-500 miles. I'll grant you the similarities, though, since 1 minute isn't a bad recharge time. However, I'm wondering if that new technology would charge the entire pack that rapidly.

What electric car currently goes 250 miles? The EV-1 maxed out at under 100...

PF_Flyer · April 2005

That one minute recharge was talking about a notebook computer type battery. If th concept can be scaled up, it's a promising idea. Will have to wait and see I suppose.

PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles

The Mazda Mania Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule

tempusvn · April 2005

I wonder what the current flow would have to be to pump in 500 miles of electric power in one minute.

If I get bored later I'll find a napkin to scribble on, but my gut tells me that if you tried it you might brown out the grid for a mile around

The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

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