I assume you are the same Mark that was quoted in BusinessWeek when they did the Audi Cover Story. I happened to be reading that article today (even though it is from an old issue) and when they interviewd a Mark in Cincinnati thathas owned 27 Audi's I immideately thought that it must be you. You name here confirms that you are the same.
I know this must be a common question but as a possible buyer of the following cars who has read every review possible, I wanted to get personal opinions and recommendations, now that the BMW is out. I understand this forum is biased towards Audi's (and I am too), but everything I read outside the Audi forums seem biased towards the new BMW (and the G35 but we won't go there). Why should I choose the 3.2 Audi over the 330i? All text appreciated! Thank you.
I am currently looking for a car for my wife, she said she would be fine with a Passat and I am trying to push her toward an Audi A4. I did come accross an 02 GLX V6 4motion passat with 24,000 miles for $17,500 in imacculate condition. It is a great price but I am comparing that to buying a new A4 2.0 turbo quatro automatic at almost exaclty double the price. The passat interior actually feels a little nicer than the A4, am I actually gaining anything other than a lot more debt? Has anybody out there owned both cars?
I am new to this forum and my question is exactly the same as delirious000.
Any views about advantages/disadvantages of the A4 3.2 vs. the BMW 330i?
Specifically I am more interested in the Avant. I saw some performance specs and it looks like the 2.0 FSI is not significantly disadvantaged to the 3.2. Makes me wonder if the 3.2 is worth the extra bucks( In Canada the 3.2 is almost $10k more than the 2.0FSI)
...it might come down to where you live. If the car is going to see much winter/snow driving the Audi makes more sense... since we're not talking about the 330xi. In this context even the FWD A4 would probably be better. Otherwise the 330i might take the prize.
For anyone considering the A4 with the 3.1 liter engine, give the 2 liter a drive. At least with the manual transmission (and probably the CVT) it certainly has plenty of scoot. And this would cost many, many $$$ less than the 330i. This engine is a vast improvement over the outgoing 1.8 liter four. The "two" works great with the six speed manual and with either the auto or manual the car should get very good gas mileage. I expect gas prices to do some serious climbing over the coming years.
Adam76, Have you checked the KBB or Edmunds used car pricing for the Passat? That sounds like a pretty nice deal.
BTW, I'm on my second Avant and it is a great little car which has served me very well. That Kanuk Land $10 k price difference is ...whew.!... enough to make my ventricles fibrillate. I wouldn't pay even $3 k for the larger engine. The performance between the two engines is just too close to justify the $.
I have owned two vw jettas and two Audi's the last being an 03 A4 1.8T.Q I got the A4 after coming close to signing for an O2 GLX V6 sans 4 motion. I got a pretty good deal which put the cars very close so it was a no brainer. If you have money to burn get the A4; it is the most fun I have had in a long time and it feels very safe. I came back through heavy fog and light rain on Devil's Slide near Halfmoon Bay California last night and the security of the four wheel drive system was refreshing. All that aside, It sounds to me like you could pick up a nice Passat (provided it mehcanically checks out) for your wife who apparently does not share your enthusiam for A4s
I have been seeing posts with problems with the CVT, but I don't know whether those problems are abberations.
I know I am in the minority on this, but with so much stop and go traffic in San Francisco the Tiptronic has made the most sense for me. I love shifting but not in 5mph stop and go traffic. The tip gives me the best of both worlds during those occasions when I am in stop and go to the coast or the Marin headlands until I can open it up a bit. Drive all three options before deciding under conditions you would normally drive.
I am located in Canada and curently shopping for a 2006 (in canada) A4 2.0T Quattro automatic. Premium package cold weather package. The sticker price in Canada is $46,290 which includes $700 destination charge.
The best deal my dealer has offered is $45,400. I told him that I would pay $44,00 for that vehicle or $44,800 for a vehicle with the sport package added as well.($1200 in Canda).
Do any of these sound like a fair deal ? Should I have asked for more off the price ?
Any help or advice a all would be greatly appreciated. Ia m trading in my 00 A4, but this is my first new car purchase.
Hopefully Johnny Hall Monitor will allow this sort of debate unless we have to open up a separate discussion.
I too am having the same debate regarding the 2006 330i vs. the 2006 Audi A4 3.2. Reason why the 2006 model in lieu of the 2005.5 model for the 3.2 is because I prefer the manual transmission, and in October Audi will release the 3.2 A4 with a stick.
I performed a cost comparison between the two vehicles, and what I found to be interesting is how much more am I getting out of the Audi for the price. Some examples:
1. If I configure both cars comparably, I am paying about $200 more for the Audi (assuming I pay MSRP). However, if you, much like others in these forums, are a savvy consumer and pay only 3% above cost, you'll come out spending $800 - $1000 less than the BMW.
2. Assuming you don't negotiate and you pay full MSRP . . .what more are you gaining? If safety is an issue and you like the stability of AWD, then Audi has Quattro. And yes, BMW will most likely come out with their X-drive version in a later release, but that’s an additional cost to you if you decide BMW is the choice, and that cost will most likely be an additional $1,000 to $1,500. Personally, I think Audi needs to do a better job of hitting this point home in the U.S. because if you ask most Americans what brand they think of when they hear AWD: Subaru.
3. I personally found the seats in the Audi to be more comfortable than the BMW. While the BMW has the thigh support and the adjustable bolster support, there was something about the Audi seats that game me the comfort, but also the support. Again, this varies by consumer based on their personal preference.
4. If a manual transmission is your thing, the Audi’s 2.0T shifter is a little shorter than BMW’s. I actually feel it’s quicker off the line than the BMW.
5. If you get Audi’s audio package, you get the benefits of a 6 CD in-dash changer. Then again, if you have an iPod, you do have the ability to hook it up in the BMW, although I’ve heard this could change for the better for Audi.
6. Now I know you are comparing the 330i vs. the A4 3.2. But take a look at the difference between the 325i and the A4 2.0T, and run the same comparison. Again, both vehicles comparably equipped, you’re coming out $2100 ahead in the 2.0T as opposed to the 325i. And you are getting more value out of the car (Quattro and better torque). As bryonwalter indicated, give this car a spin and see if it meets your needs, because it has a lot of pep.
I think ultimately the decision is going to be based on how the vehicle feels to the individual. Part of the reason why I’m leaning away from BMW is that I have the notion that everyone and their mom will own the new E90. I personally want some individuality, and I have a hunch there will be less Audi’s on the road in the States vs. the Bimmer. Both cars offer great handling, great performance, great interior components, and very attractive exteriors. You won’t go wrong with either car. I think it comes down to what you are looking for in an automobile, what style you gravitate towards, and what you think is of value, which could be totally different than my assessment. But that’s my two cents . . .
Today is the big day,yesterday my wife and I went down to the Audi dealership(50 miles away,one way) so she could sign the the paper work and pick up the car. I then decided to have the clear bra put on so it made sense to leave the car there till they install it.
After a few mistakes on my part and some interesting negotiations the deal ended up being Edmunds trade-in value for our Highlander and getting the Audi for 840 over invoice, also taking advantage of Audi's 2.9 financing for 36 month's.
We ended up getting the 05.5 A4 2.0T,Q,6M with Premium, Cold and Lighting pkg. with Quartz Grey ext. and Platinum int.Having test drove both man. and auto trans, we preferred the 6 speed man.To tell you the truth you can't go wrong with either.Living in rural western MA. the 6 just made more sense(very little city driving) and added a little more fun factor.Also test drove both sport and non sport and could not tell any difference on the test ride.We were so impressed with the 2.0T that we didn't even bother to test ride the 3.2.
If anyone is interested I will update mileage and future driving impressions.
The A4 3.2 is a quattro. The 330i is RWD. Road conditions are certainly an issue that will effect virtually all of us. AWD does not automatically suggest "for use in snow." Quite the contrary. That explanation and discussion (by many folks) is on other forums here on edmunds.
The current A4 3.2 is automatic only (what were they thinking?) The BMW can be had in either flavor. An A4 ordered today could be had with a manual, wait about 90 days. They are already taking deposits for the 325xi and 330xi, but the wait will probably be 120 days (or more).
Both cars are upgrades over the previous versions. The Audi is somewhere between redecorated and remodeled, the BMW is a total remodel.
Both cars top of the line engines output 255HP.
Both cars are fine examples of the Bavarian fine and high art of auto building.
Both cars come will full maintenance and identical warranties.
BMW is higher on the prestige list, but for many folks that is a compliment to and "reason" to buy the Audi.
Recently, more expensive MSRP BMW's lease for less than Audis that cost some 5% less. The BMW has a slower depreciation or residual -- this is important regardless of the way you finance your car.
The Audi has a slight nose heavy issue which means during handling it tends to understeer more than the BMW.
Cars that have some understeer are often considered preferable by American drivers.
Neither car is particularly frugal at the pump and they both require Premium.
Although it is subjective, it appears that most writers believe the Audi has a better interior, both in design and execution.
The exterior is subjective, FWIW, I like the Audi better, this too is subjective.
At this point, the two cars based on any weighting I can come up with appear to be about equal. The fact that the Audi comes standard with quattro makes it a lot easier to decide from a performance, fun and safety standpoint.
The BMW has some additional "stuff" that seems to be leading edge -- push button start (smart key), Bluetooth and some other "features" that the brochure talks about. Some of the features are also in the Audi -- some will be there in the 2006 update.
If you would be swayed by AWD there is no debate. If you can wait, the issue is blurred -- both will offer AWD this year.
The Audi AWD employs a 50 50 power split, the BMW is rear wheel drive biased something like 40 60 power split.
Which one do you like the looks of?
How much do you value AWD?
How much do you value manual transmission?
Are the "deals" on comparably equipped versions similar enough to make this a non issue?
For me the Audi is the looker of the two.
The BMW gets a lot of (deserved) fuss and attention.
Your question, for me, would be easy to answer: Audi A4 3.2 w/manual transmission and sport package (among other things.)
Congratulations on your recent purchase. I would welcome updates on your experience wit the car. In your purchasing decision, did you consider the Sport package at all? And if not, what was the deterrent from including it?
As far as the Sport pkg goes, this car will be my wife's mostly. Will she notice the difference between the two(highly doubtful).Second, we get some snow here in the hills of western MA. and the roads can get pretty rough.I'd rather have a little more rubber than wheel(16" vs 17").
Appreciate the responses regarding the A4 vs. 3 series choice.
In my case I was all set in buying a 06 325xi touring. I am a current owner of a 99 BMW 323i and am very satisfied with it (fingers crossed).
When I saw the 06 debut of the new 3 series in Toronto, I got mixed feelings! I am not crazy about the interior/exterior styling and despite the hulaballoo about more interior space---I could not find it!!
I am not the type who buys based solely on styling and interior space(nobody buys a BMW3 for rear seat interior space). So the key to my decsion will be based on my upcoming test drive comparison of the 325xi touring and Audi A4 Avant this Fall.
The one bonus point for Audi is that there will soon be a manual A4 Avant 3.2. BMW will not offer an equivalent 330xi touring to compete with a Avant 3.2.
Although I am still sitting on the fence about wheter a Avant 3.2 is worth the extra $$$ over the 2.0FSI. Reading Edmunds REview of the Avant 3.2, they managed to achieve 0-60 in 7.8 seconds. Similar results were achieved in another review I read(cannot recall the source of that review).
I know the 7.8 second result may be based on using a automatic tranny. But still that is one shoddy result for the price you pay for a 3.2.
BMW 325xi vs. Audi A4 Avant 2.0FSI? Audi A4 Avant 3.2 vs. Audi A4 Avant 2.0FSI? Anyway I guess I will remain sitting on a fence until this Fall. :confuse:
When you test drove it with your wife, did you happen to notice a difference in ride quality between the sport vs non-sport? Or was it virtually non existant?
My wife and I took both non sport and sport versions out multiple times -- the non sport versions do NOT ride better. Because they lack a certain "crispness" they seem to actually ride "less controlled."
Off the top of my head the differences seem to have to do with body roll (more on the non sport), perhaps even somewhat more jounce on the non sport version.
On the other hand, note well the choice of tires -- either all season UHP or summer only UHP. The differences are not precise since if I said the car had XYZ brand tires and your came with ABC your results may differ.
Typical differences would be in the areas of tire noise, sidewall squirm, temperature sensitivity (summer tires don't like the cold), usefulness on light snow and tread wear.
Being a typical American driver (sort of), I would opt for the sport package with the all season rubber -- unless I lived in the south.
Thanks Mark. My experience has been on the test drive with the Sport package and I really enjoyed it, so I will most likely opt for the sport package when my time comes.
Now what do you consider the south? Having lived in both VA and CO, I'm having this debate as to whether to get the performance tires or all season. Since I now reside in Charlotte, NC, I'm still leaning towards all season, but could use a second opinion. And my time in Charlotte has been limited, so I can't speak about the snowy / icey conditions. I've been leaning more towards the performance tiers because 1) I've heard we don't get a lot of ice down here 2) even when it rains a lot here, having the Quattro system offers an additional level of safety.
I will almost certainly be roasted for making generalizations -- perhaps rather than saying "the south," I should have said where ambient temperatures routinely go and stay below 45 F.
In Cincinnati, known generally for moderate winters (precip and temp, that is), we certainly can become a deep freeze from time to time (this past December around the Christmas holiday leaps to mind). Summer tires, even if they can "pass" in snow (many of them can't) often seem hard and almost brittle during prolonged cold. Such summer tires in such cold weather are virtually useless from a handling standpoint. Your capable AWD quattro becomes a victim of the weakest link, then.
"The south," retract. The temperature should not go below and sustain below the mid 40's F. Overnight drops to 30 with daytime highs of 48 worked fine with Falken Azenis ST115's, not so much with Cooper Zeon 2XS's and fine as wine with Pilot Sport A/S's (at $250 each they should KEEP you warm!)
Tires that lack "edges" are pretty much useless on ice no matter what. There are all season tires that are passable in winter (but not in "the north" -- you know, like Cleveland), there are snow tires and there are winter tires (see the tire rack for an erudite presentation on the differences). Finally there are summer tires (usually good for at least 8 months (probably not including Alaska, though).)
The rare times when a city like Charlotte has slick stuff basically shuts the whole town down for a few hours, all the quattros and spiked tires in the world won't help when there is grid lock.
And, you are correct, quattro offers benefits on all road conditions (get it "allroad" conditions? -- I crack myself up.)
Go for the sport version, and in Charlotte you could probably get away with summer tires if you enter into the situation knowing that they will have shorter tread life than the all season version (". . .only the good die young.")
What would a fair price be for this vehcile ? I don't expect anytyhing spectacular since it is new and since I am located in New Brunswick. Only one dealer in province, next closest is Halifax 3.5 hours away. Or to Quebec City, 4 hours away.
First of all the Audi A4 is not brand new--it is 40% old. 60% new to me is not brand new.
I wish I could be real specific about a fair price!
As you notice in this forum everybody talks about deals based on cost + or - $$$. Unfortunately in Canada dealership pricing is not as transparent.
So what is a fair price? I doubt there are long waiting lists for the new A4? Aim for 10% off MSRP. If the New Brunswick folks laugh at your offer, then use a fax machine and make your offer to dealerships that are at a distance you are willing to travel to in order to pick up your new Audi.
If you end up having all the dealerships in Canada laughing with your 10% offer. Then offer a price that is 8 to 9% off MSRP. And keep on doing this with as many dealerships as possible until you get one to accept your offer! If in the end a dealer accepts a price that is 6% off MSRP---you can feel somewhat confident that you got the best deal possible.
Making deals by fax can be an advantage when you are not face to face with a pushy sales rep, when you know exactlyl what you want and when you are comfortable with your offer price!
That is with stick, though, and the 3.2L audi is not available with stick in the US, unfortunately.
Personally, i have to break rank about quattros VS RWD. Unless you are overpowering your drive wheels, the advantage of quattro is that it allows you to be lazy and run all-seasons in mildly bad weather, though this does not help you stop and turn. It will only help you accelerate faster in inclement conditions. For this, you lug around a lot of extra weight and parts to break all year.
The audi is nose, heavy as has been pointed out, but no one "prefers" this. It is true that it tends to make the car understeer instead of oversteer, but both cars can do either, and both cars have advanced stability control systems that will keep you pointed straight. The BMW will be a little more nimble die to its weight distribution.
The audi has more torque and matches the bmw for HP, so it ought to be better for more relaxed driving. I also think the a4 feels slightly more spacious inside. I also am not pleased the new 3 has runflats and no spare.
I think the only thing to do is test drive both and see which you like better.
Testing the cars is ultimately the best thing to do.
The A4 3.2 can be ordered NOW with a manual transmission (the dealer will specify the build date to assure this).
You will have to wait several months for the 3.2 w/6spd manual.
I may have misspoke when I said some prefer nose heavy (I don't remember saying it was being nose heavy that was prefered). I meant that given understeer, neutral steer or oversteer, most "civilians" would say they wanted neutral steer (assuming they knew the difference) and would probably select the car that understeered, because it seems so much more forgiving. Indeed there are trains of thought that claim some understeer has been engineered into cars because "plowing" has been thought to be more benign than "fish tailing."
The BMW is more likely to be a neutral steer car but it can understeer a might -- the A4 quattro can be forced to oversteer (I went to school to learn how to do it), but it far prefers to plow its way through the twisties when it is pushed.
For most of us, either car would certainly pass as competent handling machines.
Your sense is the one that really counts, but a lot of car magazines "avert their eyes" in the presence of the new BMW 3, as if to say "we're not worthy."
I like the new BMW 3, heck, I probably liked the old one too, come to think of it -- at this time, however, all things considered, I'd take an A4 with a stick and the sport suspension over the Bimmer.
That this is quite subjective should be obvious.
How about this -- you probably wouldn't go wrong with either car -- get the one YOU like.
P.S. take them on THE SAME test drive route if you want to help yourself make even a tiny bit more objective of an evaluation.
Can anyone comment on the back seat? I recognize neither car is exactly a crown victoria, but i'd still like a back seat that is passable. it is my impression that for a 6"0 driver, the audi a4's backseat is positively unusable, whereas at least the 3 can fit a knee cap. but i've never owned either, only considering.
I'm 6'2" and I just sat in the back of our new A4, with the front seat moderately back I sat quite comfortably.The back of the front seats are somewhat indented on either side to help with the knee room.
Back to the Sport or non-Sport, like I said with the test ride I took I could not see any difference that would have led me to think my wife would need the Sport pkg.It's all up to the kind of driving you do.My wife is not an aggressive driver.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already in this forum, but for the 2006 model (both the 2.0T and the 3.2) will have an optional S-Line Sport package. Does anyone have any additional information on this? I have yet to contact my dealer about this information, as I just heard about it from Auditalk.com.
My assumption (since BMW did something similar) that it may be an option that will configure the A4 to have some features and handling similar to the S4 without the S4 price tag. Don't know if this includes a modification to the hp and torque ratios for each engine (BMW did this on their E46 model with the performance package).
The S-Line option makes the car look like an "S" version (think S4), generally you get upsized wheels and tires, body kits (reduces drag, changes appearance, etc.)
The engine is not changed for S-Line.
Trim bits, sport seats and steering wheel may also go with the package.
The A4 3.2 6 speed manual with S-Line will be pretty darn close to the B5 S4 in terms of its "numbers."
Having said this, it is important to note that a fully loaded A4 3.2 Sline will probably have an MSRP over $45 or $46K -- it will in many ways be "nicer" (more lux stuff) than the B5 S4 (which was also around that price point.)
Hopefully there will be no S-Lines avail with auto trans (that would be a contradiction of terms) -- but that is just a personal pref.
Agreed about the contradiction in terms, which goes back to our whole Auto vs Manual conversation that we belabored earlier in this forum. Still irkes me that the 3.2 wasn't released with a manual transmission early in production. I digress . . .
So we're thinking the S-Line Sports Package is the equivilant of the Ultra Sport package from the previous model. Can't say I test drove an A4 with that configuration, but may have to check it out just to see.
...the S line also lowers the car slightly more than the sports suspension which, depending upon prevailing road conditions, might not be such a good thing. Considering that the "S" features are show vs go and command a hefty price, Í'd pass.
The S-line Sport Package (available with Ebony Interior only) consists of:
* Sport Suspension * Front Grille and Rear Side Moldings with S-line Badge * Aluminum Interior Door Sills with S- line Logo * S-line Front and Rear Bumpers * Brushed Aluminum Trim * S-line Steering Wheel (shift paddles on Auto Tiptronic models only) * 18-inch 5-Arm quattro GmbH Wheels with 235/40 R18" with High Performance Tires
This package will not increase or enhance the hp and torque ratios on either engine.
So those that pegged it as the ULTRA Sports package win the prize.
I do have some invoice pricing for most options (although your car seems to cost more than what I got when I plugged in my values - are you getting metallic paint?). It seems like the car itself is about 9.1% markup, more like 9.9 for almost every other option. So divide your price by 1.091 for the base car, 1.099 for the options you choose, and you'll be pretty close to invoice. I've seen a lot of posts from the US saying you should be able to get 750-1000 (USD) above invoice, but again YMMV especially in smaller regions with less competition. I do originally come from NB and some of my friends there buy from Toronto dealers, but as I am no expert I'm afraid I can't be of any specific help in locating a dealer who'll give you a 'good' price on the car - I'll have enough trouble doing that myself. I think if you did get 6% off as suggested by someone else that would be a good deal, but what do I know?
Someone posted it on audiworld.com on the B7 forum. It seemed pretty detailed and reliable, and happened to be for a pretty optioned out car - minus auto and avant pretty much. The one thing that supposedly had no markup was the destination charge. I have no idea how they got that information for their car unless they work at a dealer themselves. I wish it was more out in the open in Canada for sure. I did get nearly 10% off of my Passat years ago (95) when there was supposedly about 13% markup, but only 3% off the 2000 323i that replaced it.
Thanks for the great info. I am getting metallic paint and I included a $599 admin fee the deal was trying to charge me. I would be very happy with 6% off sticket at this point. So far I have spoken with the dealer here in NB, and in Halifax. I am actually starting to consider buyin from the US. I wonder if you might be able to email so that we can talk a little about this. I am curious on how things worked ordering in Toronto from NB. My brother lives in Toronto so that might help.
In my opinion the TSX was not close to the new A4 2.0T. The TL was a better comparison, and although it added alot of power, it was really missing a level of refinement that I was accustomed to with my current A4 1.8T.
Not to mention the fact that the car is FWD, I would take the Audi anyday.
I was comparing based on the overall size of the vehicle and HP. Thanks for the opinion. It's just that I know from experience that the Acuras are basically problem free and the Audi's seem to have numerous problems. My son has a A4 3.0 a litttle over a year old and the driver window broke and the dash lights had a problem. Reviewing the older comments about problems, little hesitant. Only benefit in my case is it will be a lease.
Understand your concern about reliability/quality. It is a shame that your brother is having problems with his Audi.
But let us look beyond your anecdotal evidence:
JD Power's 2005 new car quality survey showed Acura as an unimpressive# 15 in terms of quality! Audi was among the top 8. Please note that Audi also beat the high quality Honda and Infiniti brands! Not too bad, dont you think?
...I recently drove the TL manual. The car felt nose-heavy and had a rather 'numb' feel... like a slightly muscle bound Accord. I managed to chirp the tires on a tight low-speed turn that wouldn't have been a bother in my 1.8t A4 Avant. Couldn't wait to get back to my Avant. While this might not be representative of the lighter and probably more nimble TSX, I have lost all interest in the Acura line for now.
Hey folks.. First time poster - I am looking into purchasing a 2005 audi a4 from a private seller. He is calling it an ultra sport (which I want) but the carfax report is calling it a 2005 AUDI A4 1.8T QUAT/SPEC EDIT.
I have not seen the car except in pictures. I know the ultra sport came with 18in rims, and the spec edit w/ the 17 inch rims. So if he is truthful and it has stock 18 it must be the ultrasport.. but carfax is calling it a spec edit?
His description [2005 A4 1.8T quattro ultrasport package in the dolphin grey exterior with black leather interior. Car Has all options except the cold weather package and the bose stereo. Has the lighting package and the premium package and the ultrasport package. 18 inch ultrasport rims]
How can you tell the diff between a ultrasport and spec edit? Also, if it is a special edition.. what I am really losing from the ultrasport? The suspension tuning?
I posted this on a tsx site about a month an a half ago It is hard to compare the two, especially since my experience soured the last few months.
Engine, Audi more torque and much quicker.
Tranny, Audi, just because the the tiptronic seems to shift quicker and smoother.
I dont have NAV, but I thought Acuras was superb.
Handling, hands down Audi, the quattro is one of the main reasons I purchased the car.
Seats, so far I am leaning towards the TSX.
Overall interior, Audi by a nose..the red lights on the Audi are the reason it is close.
TSX trunk looks bigger, though both have fold down seats.
Steering, Audi..adjusts to your speed.....took a turn at my club today that I barely made in my TSX and the Audi radious us much smaller.
Steering wheel controls on TSX blow away the A4.
The integrated XM radio is amazing, I had added XM to my TSX.
Wheels and tires go to Audi, rubber on A4 seems to look meaner (hard to explain).
Appearance, Audi (2 weeks ago I am sure I would have said TSX), hard to be unbiased on this one.
Lights, TSX, I already miss the Xenons anf the turn signal lights on the mirror. The Audis fog lights are stunning though.
Warranty is the same but Audi pays for all maintenance for the first 48k miles, even brakes. That adds up to a lot of money.
I will say this after purchasing two Acuras in the past two years. It is so nice to have all the options other than NAVi built into the price. I would have had to wait several months to get the exact A4 that I wanted (car i bought but I wanted the Xenon package). You are in the hands of the dealer when it comes to options, they order what they think the majority of the buyers want. I paid $160 for pop up heated light washers that I did not want.
Service? My Acura dealer (park in Akron, Ohio) was superb. I am hoping I do not have to see the Audi dealer that often.
I will also bring up that I tested a 04 A4 1.8t (05'5 much bettter car) before I bought the TSX, so I can say at one time I thought the TSX was a better car for the money.
I hope this does not ruffle any feathers or sound like sour grapes, someone asked for a comparison so I did one.
your view points seem reasonable to me. thank you!
the gauges in the tsx are superb but overall i consider the A4's interior to be second to none.
i was hoping against hope that the 2.2l turbo that honda was (is ?) developing may find its way into the tsx. but that's not going to happen since it's being dropped from the Acura RDX due to durability concerns.
I compared the A4 3.2 to the TL rather than the TSX but decided to go for the A4 for a bunch of different reasons. The price difference wasn't that great since the dealer wouldn't deal much on the TL. Interestingly I was dealing with the same dealer you were - Park in Akron but I found them to be a pain in the rump.
I thought the trunk in the TL was more functional. The TL's looks were more sporty but the new Audi grill grew on me. The NAV screen in the TL is bigger but I thought the screen views in the Audi were crisper. The TL is bigger overall and feels bigger but I think that the A4 feels sportier and definitely handles better especially with the AWD.
The TL has Bluetooth but that wasn't a huge deal to me since I don't use my phone much in the car and didn't really want to buy a new smartphone. It was too much of a pain last time I got a new phone.
The A4 has a few niceties that the TL doesn't like automatic headlights and fold down rear seats. Although the TL has more horsepower the A4 has more torque and just feels better with the AWD. The included maintenance is also nice and probably worth at least $1200-1500 over the 4 years/50000 miles.
Overall I think they're both nice cars but bought the A4. If the Acura dealer had been willing to make the deal that others have gotten on this forum, I would have bought the TL. Since they wouldn't deal and the Audi dealer would, I bought the A4. I will post an update once I get my car this week.
Comments
Pretty cool!
Any views about advantages/disadvantages of the A4 3.2 vs. the BMW 330i?
Specifically I am more interested in the Avant. I saw some performance specs and it looks like the 2.0 FSI is not significantly disadvantaged to the 3.2. Makes me wonder if the 3.2 is worth the extra bucks( In Canada the 3.2 is almost $10k more than the 2.0FSI)
For anyone considering the A4 with the 3.1 liter engine, give the 2 liter a drive. At least with the manual transmission (and probably the CVT) it certainly has plenty of scoot. And this would cost many, many $$$ less than the 330i. This engine is a vast improvement over the outgoing 1.8 liter four. The "two" works great with the six speed manual and with either the auto or manual the car should get very good gas mileage. I expect gas prices to do some serious climbing over the coming years.
Adam76, Have you checked the KBB or Edmunds used car pricing for the Passat? That sounds like a pretty nice deal.
BTW, I'm on my second Avant and it is a great little car which has served me very well. That Kanuk Land $10 k price difference is ...whew.!... enough to make my ventricles fibrillate. I wouldn't pay even $3 k for the larger engine. The performance between the two engines is just too close to justify the $.
Byron
I know I am in the minority on this, but with so much stop and go traffic in San Francisco the Tiptronic has made the most sense for me. I love shifting but not in 5mph stop and go traffic. The tip gives me the best of both worlds during those occasions when I am in stop and go to the coast or the Marin headlands until I can open it up a bit. Drive all three options before deciding under conditions you would normally drive.
The best deal my dealer has offered is $45,400. I told him that I would pay $44,00 for that vehicle or $44,800 for a vehicle with the sport package added as well.($1200 in Canda).
Do any of these sound like a fair deal ? Should I have asked for more off the price ?
Any help or advice a all would be greatly appreciated. Ia m trading in my 00 A4, but this is my first new car purchase.
Thanks,
Scott
46290-45400= 890 savings from MSRP
That is equivalent to a 1.9% discount. That hardly covers the delievery charge and only covers about 12% of total sales taxes(GST + PST)
This sounds like a horrid deal. Although it also depends on what price you can trade in your A4?
I too am having the same debate regarding the 2006 330i vs. the 2006 Audi A4 3.2. Reason why the 2006 model in lieu of the 2005.5 model for the 3.2 is because I prefer the manual transmission, and in October Audi will release the 3.2 A4 with a stick.
I performed a cost comparison between the two vehicles, and what I found to be interesting is how much more am I getting out of the Audi for the price. Some examples:
1. If I configure both cars comparably, I am paying about $200 more for the Audi (assuming I pay MSRP). However, if you, much like others in these forums, are a savvy consumer and pay only 3% above cost, you'll come out spending $800 - $1000 less than the BMW.
2. Assuming you don't negotiate and you pay full MSRP . . .what more are you gaining? If safety is an issue and you like the stability of AWD, then Audi has Quattro. And yes, BMW will most likely come out with their X-drive version in a later release, but that’s an additional cost to you if you decide BMW is the choice, and that cost will most likely be an additional $1,000 to $1,500. Personally, I think Audi needs to do a better job of hitting this point home in the U.S. because if you ask most Americans what brand they think of when they hear AWD: Subaru.
3. I personally found the seats in the Audi to be more comfortable than the BMW. While the BMW has the thigh support and the adjustable bolster support, there was something about the Audi seats that game me the comfort, but also the support. Again, this varies by consumer based on their personal preference.
4. If a manual transmission is your thing, the Audi’s 2.0T shifter is a little shorter than BMW’s. I actually feel it’s quicker off the line than the BMW.
5. If you get Audi’s audio package, you get the benefits of a 6 CD in-dash changer. Then again, if you have an iPod, you do have the ability to hook it up in the BMW, although I’ve heard this could change for the better for Audi.
6. Now I know you are comparing the 330i vs. the A4 3.2. But take a look at the difference between the 325i and the A4 2.0T, and run the same comparison. Again, both vehicles comparably equipped, you’re coming out $2100 ahead in the 2.0T as opposed to the 325i. And you are getting more value out of the car (Quattro and better torque). As bryonwalter indicated, give this car a spin and see if it meets your needs, because it has a lot of pep.
I think ultimately the decision is going to be based on how the vehicle feels to the individual. Part of the reason why I’m leaning away from BMW is that I have the notion that everyone and their mom will own the new E90. I personally want some individuality, and I have a hunch there will be less Audi’s on the road in the States vs. the Bimmer. Both cars offer great handling, great performance, great interior components, and very attractive exteriors. You won’t go wrong with either car. I think it comes down to what you are looking for in an automobile, what style you gravitate towards, and what you think is of value, which could be totally different than my assessment. But that’s my two cents . . .
After a few mistakes on my part and some interesting negotiations the deal ended up being Edmunds trade-in value for our Highlander and getting the Audi for 840 over invoice, also taking advantage of Audi's 2.9 financing for 36 month's.
We ended up getting the 05.5 A4 2.0T,Q,6M with Premium, Cold and Lighting pkg. with Quartz Grey ext. and Platinum int.Having test drove both man. and auto trans, we preferred the 6 speed man.To tell you the truth you can't go wrong with either.Living in rural western MA. the 6 just made more sense(very little city driving) and added a little more fun factor.Also test drove both sport and non sport and could not tell any difference on the test ride.We were so impressed with the 2.0T that we didn't even bother to test ride the 3.2.
If anyone is interested I will update mileage and future driving impressions.
Rick
The current A4 3.2 is automatic only (what were they thinking?) The BMW can be had in either flavor. An A4 ordered today could be had with a manual, wait about 90 days. They are already taking deposits for the 325xi and 330xi, but the wait will probably be 120 days (or more).
Both cars are upgrades over the previous versions. The Audi is somewhere between redecorated and remodeled, the BMW is a total remodel.
Both cars top of the line engines output 255HP.
Both cars are fine examples of the Bavarian fine and high art of auto building.
Both cars come will full maintenance and identical warranties.
BMW is higher on the prestige list, but for many folks that is a compliment to and "reason" to buy the Audi.
Recently, more expensive MSRP BMW's lease for less than Audis that cost some 5% less. The BMW has a slower depreciation or residual -- this is important regardless of the way you finance your car.
The Audi has a slight nose heavy issue which means during handling it tends to understeer more than the BMW.
Cars that have some understeer are often considered preferable by American drivers.
Neither car is particularly frugal at the pump and they both require Premium.
Although it is subjective, it appears that most writers believe the Audi has a better interior, both in design and execution.
The exterior is subjective, FWIW, I like the Audi better, this too is subjective.
At this point, the two cars based on any weighting I can come up with appear to be about equal. The fact that the Audi comes standard with quattro makes it a lot easier to decide from a performance, fun and safety standpoint.
The BMW has some additional "stuff" that seems to be leading edge -- push button start (smart key), Bluetooth and some other "features" that the brochure talks about. Some of the features are also in the Audi -- some will be there in the 2006 update.
If you would be swayed by AWD there is no debate. If you can wait, the issue is blurred -- both will offer AWD this year.
The Audi AWD employs a 50 50 power split, the BMW is rear wheel drive biased something like 40 60 power split.
Which one do you like the looks of?
How much do you value AWD?
How much do you value manual transmission?
Are the "deals" on comparably equipped versions similar enough to make this a non issue?
For me the Audi is the looker of the two.
The BMW gets a lot of (deserved) fuss and attention.
Your question, for me, would be easy to answer: Audi A4 3.2 w/manual transmission and sport package (among other things.)
As far as the Sport pkg goes, this car will be my wife's mostly. Will she notice the difference between the two(highly doubtful).Second, we get some snow here in the hills of western MA. and the roads can get pretty rough.I'd rather have a little more rubber than wheel(16" vs 17").
Rick
In my case I was all set in buying a 06 325xi touring. I am a current owner of a 99 BMW 323i and am very satisfied with it (fingers crossed).
When I saw the 06 debut of the new 3 series in Toronto, I got mixed feelings! I am not crazy about the interior/exterior styling and despite the hulaballoo about more interior space---I could not find it!!
I am not the type who buys based solely on styling and interior space(nobody buys a BMW3 for rear seat interior space). So the key to my decsion will be based on my upcoming test drive comparison of the 325xi touring and Audi A4 Avant this Fall.
The one bonus point for Audi is that there will soon be a manual A4 Avant 3.2. BMW will not offer an equivalent 330xi touring to compete with a Avant 3.2.
Although I am still sitting on the fence about wheter a Avant 3.2 is worth the extra $$$ over the 2.0FSI. Reading Edmunds REview of the Avant 3.2, they managed to achieve 0-60 in 7.8 seconds. Similar results were achieved in another review I read(cannot recall the source of that review).
I know the 7.8 second result may be based on using a automatic tranny. But still that is one shoddy result for the price you pay for a 3.2.
BMW 325xi vs. Audi A4 Avant 2.0FSI?
Audi A4 Avant 3.2 vs. Audi A4 Avant 2.0FSI?
Anyway I guess I will remain sitting on a fence until this Fall. :confuse:
Thanks again for the input,
Luke
Off the top of my head the differences seem to have to do with body roll (more on the non sport), perhaps even somewhat more jounce on the non sport version.
On the other hand, note well the choice of tires -- either all season UHP or summer only UHP. The differences are not precise since if I said the car had XYZ brand tires and your came with ABC your results may differ.
Typical differences would be in the areas of tire noise, sidewall squirm, temperature sensitivity (summer tires don't like the cold), usefulness on light snow and tread wear.
Being a typical American driver (sort of), I would opt for the sport package with the all season rubber -- unless I lived in the south.
Now what do you consider the south? Having lived in both VA and CO, I'm having this debate as to whether to get the performance tires or all season. Since I now reside in Charlotte, NC, I'm still leaning towards all season, but could use a second opinion. And my time in Charlotte has been limited, so I can't speak about the snowy / icey conditions. I've been leaning more towards the performance tiers because 1) I've heard we don't get a lot of ice down here 2) even when it rains a lot here, having the Quattro system offers an additional level of safety.
Thanks for your insight and feedback Mark,
Luke
In Cincinnati, known generally for moderate winters (precip and temp, that is), we certainly can become a deep freeze from time to time (this past December around the Christmas holiday leaps to mind). Summer tires, even if they can "pass" in snow (many of them can't) often seem hard and almost brittle during prolonged cold. Such summer tires in such cold weather are virtually useless from a handling standpoint. Your capable AWD quattro becomes a victim of the weakest link, then.
"The south," retract. The temperature should not go below and sustain below the mid 40's F. Overnight drops to 30 with daytime highs of 48 worked fine with Falken Azenis ST115's, not so much with Cooper Zeon 2XS's and fine as wine with Pilot Sport A/S's (at $250 each they should KEEP you warm!)
Tires that lack "edges" are pretty much useless on ice no matter what. There are all season tires that are passable in winter (but not in "the north" -- you know, like Cleveland), there are snow tires and there are winter tires (see the tire rack for an erudite presentation on the differences). Finally there are summer tires (usually good for at least 8 months (probably not including Alaska, though).)
The rare times when a city like Charlotte has slick stuff basically shuts the whole town down for a few hours, all the quattros and spiked tires in the world won't help when there is grid lock.
And, you are correct, quattro offers benefits on all road conditions (get it "allroad" conditions? -- I crack myself up.)
Go for the sport version, and in Charlotte you could probably get away with summer tires if you enter into the situation knowing that they will have shorter tread life than the all season version (". . .only the good die young.")
Thanks for the reply.
What would a fair price be for this vehcile ? I don't expect anytyhing spectacular since it is new and since I am located in New Brunswick. Only one dealer in province, next closest is Halifax 3.5 hours away. Or to Quebec City, 4 hours away.
Thanks,
Scott
I wish I could be real specific about a fair price!
As you notice in this forum everybody talks about deals based on cost + or - $$$.
Unfortunately in Canada dealership pricing is not as transparent.
So what is a fair price? I doubt there are long waiting lists for the new A4? Aim for 10% off MSRP. If the New Brunswick folks laugh at your offer, then use a fax machine and make your offer to dealerships that are at a distance you are willing to travel to in order to pick up your new Audi.
If you end up having all the dealerships in Canada laughing with your 10% offer. Then offer a price that is 8 to 9% off MSRP. And keep on doing this with as many dealerships as possible until you get one to accept your offer! If in the end a dealer accepts a price that is 6% off MSRP---you can feel somewhat confident that you got the best deal possible.
Making deals by fax can be an advantage when you are not face to face with a pushy sales rep, when you know exactlyl what you want and when you are comfortable with your offer price!
I
The basic difference is that the 3 is sportier and the a4 more luxury biased, though frankly the 3 may be quieter to drive.
The 330 is about a second faster to 60 than the a4 ( 6.5 vs 5.6 ).
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=103036
That is with stick, though, and the 3.2L audi is not available with stick in the US, unfortunately.
Personally, i have to break rank about quattros VS RWD. Unless you are overpowering your drive wheels, the advantage of quattro is that it allows you to be lazy and run all-seasons in mildly bad weather, though this does not help you stop and turn. It will only help you accelerate faster in inclement conditions. For this, you lug around a lot of extra weight and parts to break all year.
The audi is nose, heavy as has been pointed out, but no one "prefers" this. It is true that it tends to make the car understeer instead of oversteer, but both cars can do either, and both cars have advanced stability control systems that will keep you pointed straight. The BMW will be a little more nimble die to its weight distribution.
The audi has more torque and matches the bmw for HP, so it ought to be better for more relaxed driving. I also think the a4 feels slightly more spacious inside. I also am not pleased the new 3 has runflats and no spare.
I think the only thing to do is test drive both and see which you like better.
dave
The A4 3.2 can be ordered NOW with a manual transmission (the dealer will specify the build date to assure this).
You will have to wait several months for the 3.2 w/6spd manual.
I may have misspoke when I said some prefer nose heavy (I don't remember saying it was being nose heavy that was prefered). I meant that given understeer, neutral steer or oversteer, most "civilians" would say they wanted neutral steer (assuming they knew the difference) and would probably select the car that understeered, because it seems so much more forgiving. Indeed there are trains of thought that claim some understeer has been engineered into cars because "plowing" has been thought to be more benign than "fish tailing."
The BMW is more likely to be a neutral steer car but it can understeer a might -- the A4 quattro can be forced to oversteer (I went to school to learn how to do it), but it far prefers to plow its way through the twisties when it is pushed.
For most of us, either car would certainly pass as competent handling machines.
Your sense is the one that really counts, but a lot of car magazines "avert their eyes" in the presence of the new BMW 3, as if to say "we're not worthy."
I like the new BMW 3, heck, I probably liked the old one too, come to think of it -- at this time, however, all things considered, I'd take an A4 with a stick and the sport suspension over the Bimmer.
That this is quite subjective should be obvious.
How about this -- you probably wouldn't go wrong with either car -- get the one YOU like.
P.S. take them on THE SAME test drive route if you want to help yourself make even a tiny bit more objective of an evaluation.
Back to the Sport or non-Sport, like I said with the test ride I took I could not see any difference that would have led me to think my wife would need the Sport pkg.It's all up to the kind of driving you do.My wife is not an aggressive driver.
Rick
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already in this forum, but for the 2006 model (both the 2.0T and the 3.2) will have an optional S-Line Sport package. Does anyone have any additional information on this? I have yet to contact my dealer about this information, as I just heard about it from Auditalk.com.
My assumption (since BMW did something similar) that it may be an option that will configure the A4 to have some features and handling similar to the S4 without the S4 price tag. Don't know if this includes a modification to the hp and torque ratios for each engine (BMW did this on their E46 model with the performance package).
Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks,
Luke
The S-Line option makes the car look like an "S" version (think S4), generally you get upsized wheels and tires, body kits (reduces drag, changes appearance, etc.)
The engine is not changed for S-Line.
Trim bits, sport seats and steering wheel may also go with the package.
The A4 3.2 6 speed manual with S-Line will be pretty darn close to the B5 S4 in terms of its "numbers."
Having said this, it is important to note that a fully loaded A4 3.2 Sline will probably have an MSRP over $45 or $46K -- it will in many ways be "nicer" (more lux stuff) than the B5 S4 (which was also around that price point.)
Hopefully there will be no S-Lines avail with auto trans (that would be a contradiction of terms) -- but that is just a personal pref.
So we're thinking the S-Line Sports Package is the equivilant of the Ultra Sport package from the previous model. Can't say I test drove an A4 with that configuration, but may have to check it out just to see.
Byron
The S-line Sport Package (available with Ebony Interior only) consists of:
* Sport Suspension
* Front Grille and Rear Side Moldings with S-line Badge
* Aluminum Interior Door Sills with S- line Logo
* S-line Front and Rear Bumpers
* Brushed Aluminum Trim
* S-line Steering Wheel (shift paddles on Auto Tiptronic models only)
* 18-inch 5-Arm quattro GmbH Wheels with 235/40 R18" with High
Performance Tires
This package will not increase or enhance the hp and torque ratios on either
engine.
So those that pegged it as the ULTRA Sports package win the prize.
LOL!!! That is about the same discount I got on my 99 323i!
I thought the a3's backseat was ok.
dave
Thanks for the great info. I am getting metallic paint and I included a $599 admin fee the deal was trying to charge me. I would be very happy with 6% off sticket at this point. So far I have spoken with the dealer here in NB, and in Halifax. I am actually starting to consider buyin from the US. I wonder if you might be able to email so that we can talk a little about this. I am curious on how things worked ordering in Toronto from NB. My brother lives in Toronto so that might help.
Scott
scott.vanwart@q1labs.com
Not to mention the fact that the car is FWD, I would take the Audi anyday.
Scott
But let us look beyond your anecdotal evidence:
JD Power's 2005 new car quality survey showed Acura as an unimpressive# 15 in terms of quality!
Audi was among the top 8. Please note that Audi also beat the high quality Honda and Infiniti brands! Not too bad, dont you think?
http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0518/4503505.jpg
I have not seen the car except in pictures.
I know the ultra sport came with 18in rims, and the spec edit w/ the 17 inch rims. So if he is truthful and it has stock 18 it must be the ultrasport.. but carfax is calling it a spec edit?
His description [2005 A4 1.8T quattro ultrasport package in the dolphin grey exterior with black leather interior. Car Has all options except the cold weather package and the bose stereo. Has the lighting package and the premium package and the ultrasport package. 18 inch ultrasport rims]
How can you tell the diff between a ultrasport and spec edit?
Also, if it is a special edition.. what I am really losing from the ultrasport? The suspension tuning?
Thanks for the help.
It is hard to compare the two, especially since my experience soured the last few months.
Engine, Audi more torque and much quicker.
Tranny, Audi, just because the the tiptronic seems to shift quicker and smoother.
I dont have NAV, but I thought Acuras was superb.
Handling, hands down Audi, the quattro is one of the main reasons I purchased the car.
Seats, so far I am leaning towards the TSX.
Overall interior, Audi by a nose..the red lights on the Audi are the reason it is close.
TSX trunk looks bigger, though both have fold down seats.
Steering, Audi..adjusts to your speed.....took a turn at my club today that I barely made in my TSX and the Audi radious us much smaller.
Steering wheel controls on TSX blow away the A4.
The integrated XM radio is amazing, I had added XM to my TSX.
Wheels and tires go to Audi, rubber on A4 seems to look meaner (hard to explain).
Appearance, Audi (2 weeks ago I am sure I would have said TSX), hard to be unbiased on this one.
Lights, TSX, I already miss the Xenons anf the turn signal lights on the mirror. The Audis fog lights are stunning though.
Warranty is the same but Audi pays for all maintenance for the first 48k miles, even brakes. That adds up to a lot of money.
I will say this after purchasing two Acuras in the past two years. It is so nice to have all the options other than NAVi built into the price. I would have had to wait several months to get the exact A4 that I wanted (car i bought but I wanted the Xenon package). You are in the hands of the dealer when it comes to options, they order what they think the majority of the buyers want. I paid $160 for pop up heated light washers that I did not want.
Service? My Acura dealer (park in Akron, Ohio) was superb. I am hoping I do not have to see the Audi dealer that often.
I will also bring up that I tested a 04 A4 1.8t (05'5 much bettter car) before I bought the TSX, so I can say at one time I thought the TSX was a better car for the money.
I hope this does not ruffle any feathers or sound like sour grapes, someone asked for a comparison so I did one.
the gauges in the tsx are superb but overall i consider the A4's interior to be second to none.
i was hoping against hope that the 2.2l turbo that honda was (is ?) developing may find its way into the tsx. but that's not going to happen since it's being dropped from the Acura RDX due to durability concerns.
I thought the trunk in the TL was more functional. The TL's looks were more sporty but the new Audi grill grew on me. The NAV screen in the TL is bigger but I thought the screen views in the Audi were crisper. The TL is bigger overall and feels bigger but I think that the A4 feels sportier and definitely handles better especially with the AWD.
The TL has Bluetooth but that wasn't a huge deal to me since I don't use my phone much in the car and didn't really want to buy a new smartphone. It was too much of a pain last time I got a new phone.
The A4 has a few niceties that the TL doesn't like automatic headlights and fold down rear seats. Although the TL has more horsepower the A4 has more torque and just feels better with the AWD. The included maintenance is also nice and probably worth at least $1200-1500 over the 4 years/50000 miles.
Overall I think they're both nice cars but bought the A4. If the Acura dealer had been willing to make the deal that others have gotten on this forum, I would have bought the TL. Since they wouldn't deal and the Audi dealer would, I bought the A4. I will post an update once I get my car this week.
i'm leaning towards a A4 myself.