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pzev, while I haven't any intention of double-checking your research which you shared, I do want to point out that prior to receiving a settlement offer from the GEICO adjuster, I had done a little homework of my own - consulting both Kelly Blue Book and Edmunds online. Both services' median valuations agreed with each other within ~$30.00 as I recall. These figures were for a six year old '96 Accord LX in "excellent" condition (no body dings, very minor and very few paint blemishes and near original gloss, no uphostery damage, no mechanical damage or defects, and all equipment working - at least prior to the collision...) with no optional or upgraded equipment. (I have simple tastes and my Accord LX I4 with automatic transmission fit mine perfectly - after I installed adhesive rosewood dash and door panel inserts...) The fact that my LX only had ~30,000 total miles didn't hurt the valuation, either. (yes, VERY unusual for a six+ year old car in California - got that car several months before I retired in 1996.) I expected to have a fight with the adjuster, but she was surprisingly pleasantly knowledgable, and cooperative. Her first words were that she hoped I had already researched the standard valuation services for a vehicle of mine's make, age, prior condition, and equipment. She then gave me the figure she had worked out and volunteered that if I insisted, I could probably get another $100.00 without a fight just by refusing the first offer. However, it would have to be cleared by GEICO's San Diego regional office which might delay things a week. The figure she gave me was about $25.00 over the average of the Kelly Blue Book and Edmunds medians. Call me stupid, but, 1> I wanted this over with, and 2> since the settlement offer was so close to my own research, I saw no honor in trying to screw the company for every last dime. I authorized her to process the check in the amount of her settlement offer which then arrived 48 hours later.
Based on the photos of the 05 Sonata that we have all seen, alpha's comment about the 05 Sonata's rear being very similar to the Accord's is beyond dispute. That and the fact that he has given credit for Hyundai where credit is due makes his arguments very credible.
We all have to learn to accept valid criticism without questioning the motives of the critic.
Ray thanks for acknowledging the obvious. No one believes the competition is not aware of Hyundai's threat to challenge the market leaders. The point is that this company has committed itself to being a serious contender by investing over a billion (with a B! lol)in the U.S. by building a state-of-the-art manufacturing plant in Alabama.
Auto manufacturers do not commit those kinds of resources without an eye to the future or a belief that they can challenge the current market leaders. Hyundai knows whats riding on the line. Quality and value are the only two important attributes that the company is focused on.
I think we both can agree on that.
Ray, you made an excellent point. I was thinking same. Btw, have you seen the specs for the power train for the '06 Sonata? From what I've read there will be a 2.4 V-Tech 4 and 3.3 V-Tech 6. Horsepower range somewhere in the 170's or a bit higher for the 4 and 230ish for the 6. The fact that they invested the requisite resources to developed these engines convinces me that they are maturing as a company and begining to emulate the Japanese.
~alpha
*Can someone explain to me the auto manufacturers' preoccupation with engine covers? Do the things actually serve a purpose other than making routine servicing more difficult and time consuming, retaining heat, and hiding the intrinsic beauty of a well executed power plant? Aren't hoods sufficient? (You'll never guess where the one from my Sonata ended up...)
I boght 93 ford festive when I was 15 (even before got licence) for $3900.
but I totaled the car in 1996 and got $6400 from statefarm. I believe new car cost less than $8000 back then....
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/epitherm-special1095404257_2.jp- g
And here are exterior pictures for those who haven't seen it yet.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/spyshots/H/hyundai/03-large/Hy- undai-Elantra-01.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/spyshots/H/hyundai/03-large/Hy- undai-Elantra-02.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/spyshots/H/hyundai/03-large/Hy- undai-Elantra-03.jpg
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/spyshots/H/hyundai/03-large/Hy- undai-Elantra-04.jpg
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/824/hyundai_elantra-1.jpg
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/420/hyundai_elantra-2.jpg
You may have to copy and paste some of those. And obviously that's not the Elantra. I don't think there's been a legit picture of the Elantra yet. The Elantra is being released after all these other cars (Rio, Accent, Optima, XG, etc.) so it sort of makes sense it hasn't been photographed yet.
I still stand behind what I said. There's just no way to sell an over 6 year old Accord for $11,500. There may be a few people crazy enough to go for it but it's highly unlikely most people can find someone to take it at that price.
There are easily ways to save money by getting a Sonata or other car compared to the Accord, resale value is only part of the equation. From the values I get what you lose in resale value on the Sonata you gain upfront on the money you save. Also some people may have 0% financing on the Sonata where it's less likely on an Accord. Insurance and gas mileage are factors. Also the numbers I compared were against the top-level trim Sonata, the V6 version. Get a 4-cyl version and save even more money.
Keep the Sonata for 5 years and take advantage of the 5 year warranty and I think you're no worse off than having a 5 year old Accord. The significant amount of money saved upfront on the Sonata balances it all out IMO.
Everybody read pzev's message just above mine and think about it for a second. It helps make my point...one I've been making at this and several other car sites for years-the HyunKia machine is the future in our automotive needs. Enjoy their shot to the top and get in on the fun, dudes.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
PZEV- No mention of your allegation that I am anti-Hyundai? How come? Have you realized that I am not?
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Sounds like you just wanted to avoid the question and use an example that can't be used against you. There's no copying the Volvo S40 since I doubt the tC designers went out of their way to copy it based on the timing of their debuts. Of course maybe they had access to what the Volvo S40 was going to look like and did it, who knows.
Do you admit that all companies copy each other? So why is the tC taillights looking like the Tiburon ok (both compete against each other like the Sonata and Accord) but the Sonata is a "pretender"? The taillights have a slightly different shape (just like the Sonata/Accord do) but you can't tell me it's pure coincidence that they look so similar.
Do you think the tC designers were living under a rock and just by coincidence made the taillights look similar to the Tiburon? Yes they are very similar whether you want to admit to it or not. You just need to explain to me how Hyundai copying is different from Toyota or someone else doing it. Otherwise why go out of your way to call it a "pretender" but somehow make it out that other companies aren't doing the same thing. This is why I think you're biased.
I definitely agree that many vehicles have styling cues from others. My point is that is makes no sense for Toyota to intentionally copy the styling of a vehicle that sells fairly poorly (the Tiburon), moving out the door only with incentives, especially when Toyota's intention from the get-go was to offer a non-negotiable price on the vehicle. And, I did NOT say it is OK for Toyota or Honda to copy styling cues, but not for Hyundai. For better or for worse, Hyundai is trying to capitalize on portraying an image of the well-respected, award winning Accord, and my only comment was that FOR ME, it says "pretender". In designing the vehicle, I dont feel that Toyota was aiming for its Scion buyers to feel the image of the Tiburon. That just doesnt make sense.
In any case, the "pretender" comment IS MY SINGLE COMPLAINT about the new Sonata, which looks incredibly promising at this stage. Why is it so outlandish for you to just accept the criticsm of one person?
Basically, for you, the fact that I like the Sonata based on the limited information available, would consider buying one, and strongly considered buying an Elantra a year and a half ago.... is completely discounted by the fact that I see a similarity between the new Sonata and the Accord, and resultingly have a negative reaction? And therefore, I am biased against Hyundai?
Thats not very sound logic....
~alpha
~alpha
And you wonder why I think you're biased? Reread what you just said. There's no way Toyota is copying the Tiburon (DIRECT competition for the tC) because of sales numbers, yet Hyundai is surely copying the Accord because of it being "well-respected" and "award winning"?
Give me a break. Lots of people make the comparison between the tC and the Tiburon. If Toyota was trying to avoid styling cues of a *gasp* Hyundai they failed miserably.
What you're saying is that it is pure coincidence that the tC taillights resemble the Tiburon. You also seem to be saying copying styling cues is purely based on sales numbers, and if a car is not meeting sales goals and is using incentives that there's no way another company would copy any styling cues from it.
This is why I think you're biased. You absolutely refuse to admit that the tC designers maybe, just maybe, looked at the Tiburon and decided to use similar taillights. This is the exact same thing as the Sonata/Accord taillights.
Just think about it for a second. The Tiburon and tC are direct competition. Toyota could have chosen any number of taillight designs but they chose what they did, which looks very similar to the Tiburon. Why would they by your logic avoid copying a car that is not a good seller but yet by pure coincidence the taillights look so similar? This makes no sense whatsoever.
This is why I was dropping the subject. You REFUSE to admit the possibility Toyota would copy the Tiburon.
alpha01, I will say this about you and Hyundai. I think you do have an interest in them, and that is good. Really, if you stop and think about it, who from the Hyundai camp really cares if we enthusisasts sit and bicker about whether automakers copy each other's body designs or not. They're gonna keep going full steam ahead. What do you guys think? Do carmakers read these website forums and take cues from what we like?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Kudos to Hyundai, for providing so many other automakers with fine designs to be sampled.
Pzev,
"You also seem to be saying copying styling cues is purely based on sales numbers, and if a car is not meeting sales goals and is using incentives that there's no way another company would copy any styling cues from it."
This is not at all what I said. What I did say is that it makes sense for manufacturers who are trying to bring their models upmarket to emulate the styling of vehicles that have typically set the class standard. Reference Lexus and the Mercedes facade in the early 1990s.
I still disagree that Im biased. If I was, I wouldnt be interested in this next Sonata, nor would I have very seriously considered an Elantra.
iluvmysephia- Yes, the car mfgs read these boards, even if rather stealthily.... some, like Subuaru, even run forums...
~alpha
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
We are trying to buy a 2005 sonata lx model with package 5 and getting it for $19000 (without tax/license). Please let me know if you have bought the car and if this is a good deal. Your help is much appreciated.
Regards
Pallavi
The overall styling and design theme of the new Sonata is more 'euro'in flavor and hence gives the car a much higher-end luxo-look. The overall feedback amongst the many forum posts throughout that I have surveyed thus far indicates the '06 Sonata has received an abundance of positive feedback and high quality expectations. Since the car is not scheduled for release in North America until March of '05 I would anticipate that there will be much debate about the design until it hits dealer showrooms and the ultimate verdict is decided by the you and me, the consumer!
happy motoring,
~alpha
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To reiterate, the '06 Hyundai Sonata, like the one seen in the pictures a few posts back in this thread, won't be out in the States until March '05, correct? Just so we're all straight on that. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong, OK?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Additionally, this is to coordinate the line so that each worker understands the process as it progresses. The estimated date of sale has yet to be announced. However sale of the '06 Sonata have been slated to begin in or at the end of March '05.
Price range for the 4 cyl@160 b hp is rumored to be in the 17k range and the 6 will be in the low/mid 20s. However the 6 cyl model will be offered first and the 4 will follow. The 6 is reported rated at either 230-240 b hp and torque is expected to be in the same range or slightly better. Both engines are V-Techs. Both engines are Hyundai sourced and will also sell to Daimler-Chrysler and Mitsubishi to power their upcoming small car offerings, i.e. neon and possibly Sebring. Further details to follow as soon as I have more.
Those power figures are well-chosen- the Camry's engines are a 2.4L 160hp 163 ft. lb 4, along with the 225hp/240 lb. ft. 3.3L V6 (and the soon to be discontinued 3.0L)...
Hyundai KNOWS the game this time around.
Any guesses on MPG? The Camry 2.4L 5A is 24/34 and the 3.3L V6 5A is 21/29.
~alpha
According to sources inside or is it outside Hyundai(?) the 3.3 V-Tech 6 is rumored to be 230-245 hp and the torque to be approximately 240(?) if true this should mean that this powerplant would out-run both Camry and Accord. Additionally, here are some of the features to be offered for the top end US Spec Sonata will be equipped with rain-sensing windshield wipers, rear back-up radar, powered rear sun-shade visor, air-filtration purification system, tilt, telescopic steering, delayed power accessory for radio power windows. Also will allow driver to power windows and doors from the driver's door. 4-channel ABS - 4 wheel disc. (more to come)
Just some of the really state-of-the art features to come on '06 Sonata.
~alpha
Mitsubishi and DCX are partners with Hyundai in GEMA (Global Engine Manufacturing Alliance), so all three "own" the GEMA 4-cylinder lineup and will produce them in various plants. Sharing the I4 means you will be able to take the motor from a next-gen SRT-4 and make a turbo Sonata, or an insanely overpowered Kia Rio
Everything I've read indicates that GEMA is a 4-banger project and doesn't involve the new Hyundai V6. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Hyundai V6 show up in some Mitsus and Dodges since the current Mitsu V6 is getting long in the tooth and Mitsu doesn't have the resources to develop a new one anytime soon.
One more thing: Hyundai is using VVT, not VTEC. See http://www.streetracersonline.com/articles/camshafts/3.php for the difference.
That's why the new, larger XG380 is due in about a year.
Also here is an article of interest that talks about Hyundai's strategy behind rolling out the new '06 Sonata. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_36/b3898072.htm
And thats great news about the XG380! It will probably grow larger, correct, since the Sonata will. The fuller size sedan segment heats up- the new Ford Five Hundred, the new Toyota Avalon, the new XG380, etc.
~alpha
As far as the new Ford Five Hundred is concerned Ford recently admitted that this new model comes to play with an underpowered powerplant (203 bhp) at most, compare that to what the current Sonata estimated @230-240 bhp can do, as well as the new XG est somewhere at 260ish(?) and you have a dog who can't begin to hunt much less compete on Hyundai's level. What? Did I just write that? Damn! Hyundai has really arrived!!!
2.4 VVT 4cyl rated at 165 bhp torque 161 lb.
3.3 VVT 6cyl rated at 230 bhp, torque at 224 lb. More to follow as soon as it is available.
Since Hyundai has made it know that its benchmarking the Camry:
Camry 2.4L 160hp @ 5700RPM 163 lb. ft. @4000 RPM
EPA rated 5A 24/34
Camry 3.3L 225hp @ 5600 RPM 240 lb. ft. @3600 RPM.
EPA rated 5A 21/29
And obviously the Sonata blows away the other Camry 3.0 V6, which Toyota is rumored to be phasing out with the start of production of the next Avalon in Jan 2006 (as the Camry is the only vehicle still using this engine).
~alpha
BTW, isn't it about time to change the title of this discussion to 2006 Hyundai Sonata, since it's clear the 2005 model is a carryover?
-Rain Sensing Wipers
-Rear Back-Up Radar
-Power Rear Sunshade
Features such as that are typically offered only in the near-lux/entry lux class, and really, if Hyundai prices a top Sonata model with every option at $26,500, yes, that would be Accord EX V6 territory, but including features such as the above, Hyundai would retain its content/features for the dollar advantage over the Accord, since none of that is available on the Accord EX. (Heck, fog lights arent even standard). Im very interested to see if Hyundai offers a stability control system on the next Sonata, thats going to be a big selling point for my next vehicle, especially if that vehicle is not AWD. That would be just another advantage over the Accord.
PS- Accord EX V6 non-nav stickers at $27,215 incl. destination. EX V6 NAV stickers at $29,215 incl. dest.
~alpha
* Higher resale value
* Higher fuel economy (remains to be seen if that's true with the new Sonata powertrains)
* Best-in-class reputation for driving performance
* Best-in-class reputation for quality
It's features like those that lead me to think that the Sonata will have to signficantly undercut the price of the Accord, as it does today, to make sales inroads until the new Sonata's reputation is established. If Hyundai tries to price it about the same as the Accord, watch for huge rebates and discounts soon after introduction.
* Higher fuel economy (remains to be seen if that's true with the new Sonata powertrains)
* Best-in-class reputation for driving performance
* Best-in-class reputation for quality - backy
Good points all the way around backy. What if Hyundai succeeds on 3 of 4 (Best-in-class reputation for driving performance?-not sure if they're there yet). As I've written on this forum before Hyundai now has an opportunity to take the bulls by the proverbial horns and challenge the leaders (Honda & Toyota).
No doubt the convincing proof-in-the-pudding will be measured in overall market share?(sales) in the upcoming 2nd thru 4th QTR of '05. As I've written before the jury is still out until then we can all travel down the road of speculation.
ray_h, Not for anything, we have no idea what the new Sonata's powertrain will offer in terms of NVH, refinement, etc, so I'm not so sure how you can assert that the Accords is definitely better.
My only point is that I feel this could be the vehicle that allows Hyundai to break out of its value-leader reputation. If the new Sonata performs as well on the road as it appears that it should, by offering more features for a slightly lower, or even equal price to the Accord, Hyundai could do just that.
And Hyundai will always have its excellent warranty to sell as well. The Honda warranty is absurd.
~alpha
I completely agree. I just think it will take some time before the buying public puts Hyundai on an equal footing with Honda on price. After so many years of Hyundai's positioning itself as the value leader, that perception won't change overnight. Look at the Elantra: the design introduced four years ago trounced the Civic LX in C/D's comparo, ran a close second in Edmunds.com's comparo to the Civic EX that cost thousands more, and has more features for the money than its Honda competition. Yet it still sells only with big rebates and discounts, for thousands less than the Civic.
I think Hyundai has to earn price pairity with Honda. The new Sonata is a nice car on paper and in photos, but hasn't proven anything yet against entrenched competition.
"Better" was a relative term on two counts: far better than the current Hyundai 4sp automatic (which isn't saying much from what an AAMCO tech I know told me who's worked extensively on Hyundai's current trannies - the chain does have -some- good people and he's one of 'em) and much better than the previous Honda 4sp automatic. If you have hard evidence the new Sonatas are earmarked for a new transmission, share it with us. Otherwise even mention of the
-possibility- of such is just further pure Kentucky-windage speculation. (a state noted for its extensive husbandry in thoroughbred horses, which by extension includes...)