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Comments
The car was taken to a body shop recommended & partially owned by the Porsche dealer the car was purchased from. The insurance adjuster claimed the damages to be only $14,000 while the body shop gave an estimate of $28,000 which has now climbed to a bill of $44,000 and the car is still pulling to the right. I suggested in the beginning that the car should be a total. It's now "fixed" but the after market paint job is as good as it gets but still doesn't look like the original factory paint job & there's obviously some mechanical issue. I'm also concerned about metal fatigue - all those bolts, joints, etc. that get stressed under that sort of impact.
We thought of selling the car but now there's a Carfax report showing the accident so who would possibly buy this car? I feel that the insurance company should be making us "whole" in this situation and buy the car from us for the the depreciated used car retail value of $79,345 + tax. That only seems fair to me. As is, the depreciation from new is over $20,000 without the accident and we haven't even had the car 2 years. Is it right that the insurance company should force us to accept this car? I doubt we could get $50-60,000 for this car now that it's had so much repair work. $44,000 is more than the new value of the average vehicle & that kind of damage on 99% of all cars out there would equate a total. In the case of this car, it's 55% of the value so following normal % calcalations by insurance companies, the spread between the repair cost & value of the car is too high. But shouldn't they really calculate the % based upon what the car would be worth after the repair which would make the repair cost possibly a much higher % of the after-accident value?
Please help with my dilemma. I've unfortunately had a couple of totalled cars 25 & 30 years ago (avoiding drunk drivers coming towards me) and always got replacement value+ tax from my insurance-CSAA at that time.. Those cars back then were $4000 cars so it took little damage to qualify a total. I thank you in advance for any advice you can give me in dealing with my insurance co. I'm waiting for a call from a supervisor at Travelers.
Now if your car had been struck you'd be in a much better position in that you could sue the other insurance company for Diminution of Value after the repair---that is, while your car was fixed it is worth less than a "normal one" and so you want to sue for the difference in market value.
But since it is only your own insurance company that is involved, you can't sue them for Diminution of Value under the law (again, check again in your individual state law).
You probably need an attorney to sort all this out but offhand I'd say you aren't in a very good position unfortunately.
On the bright side, the car was not totalled so doesn't have a salvage title. While you will have to reveal that your car was damaged, if you have all receipts and the work was done flawlessly, you probably won't have to discount the car too much...not like you would if it were a totalled car.
But go see an attorney who knows insurance law. If the car is not performing as it should, this may be your legal lever. Your car is supposed to be fixed "good as new"..it can't steer funny. The insurance company has to make it right, but they don't have to total it, no.
If this were your own insurance company you'd have a lot more restrictions placed on you by contract.
But yes, next step...if you are not satisfied with the settlement, is to hire your own appraiser.
On a related topic, typically how long does an insurance company give you on a rental car they're paying for when (1) their driver admits liability and (2) your car is totaled, thus requiring purchase of another car? (We only had one car for two working adults before the accident, so another car is a necessity.) Thanks again.
If the OTHER driver was at fault, then the OTHER driver's insurance company should provide you with
(1) EITHER (A) [If your car can be repaired] The gross diminution in value (which consists of the repair cost PLUS the "residual diminution") or (B) [If your car is totalled] The fair market value of your car at the time of the accident.
AND
(2) The value of loss of use of your car.
In the real world, loss of use is usually dealt with thru rental cars. In the repair case, a typical rental length would be the time for repair. In a replacement case, rental length depends on how long it's "reasonable" for you not to acquire a new car. If you can't afford a new car without the insurance company's settlement check, then they should be paying for your rental til they cut it.
As for rental cars, I agree they "should" provide you with one, but what I'm saying is that I don't believe there is any law compelling them to do so because they have no contract with you.
Diminuation of Value
Rental Cost while being repaired
Sales Tax if your vehicle is totaled, yet if repaired, they do pay sales tax.
It is up to the Claimant to "prove" his loss and document all of his proof. Insurance companies do NOT operate like FEMA in a hurricane.
On rental cars, you never know...some are sympathetic (up to a point), some adversarial...sometimes I have even heard that they'll bribe you by asking you to settle your claim with them quickly regarding medical liability....just sign here and we'll get you that rental car...
People have to keep in mind that insurance companies just run by the system...they don't care if you win a few and they don't care if they lose a few, as long as the numbers come out in the black in that Big Balance Sheet in the Sky.
Our insurance (Progressive) then submitted what they had paid to the other driver's company. So it pays to have rental car on your own policy even if the other driver is at fault.
Your advice is appreciated to settle this insurance claim.
I am in the process to settle a claim with the insurance company of the driver who hit my car.
Here’s a recap:
• The insurance claim adjuster completed inspection of my car and they claimed that based on their “value Factors” they used, the estimate repair of $3,100.00 is too high for the value of the car.
• He gave 2 possible options:
1- Total loss - They will take car and pay me for the market value of the car.
2- Owner retain car - They will give me less than $3,100.00
They’re submitting documents to their in-house adjuster to write up the options.
I told them that the damage is just cosmetic and I want to keep the car.
I mentioned that If want it to sell this car “today” prior to his/her client running into my car I could get $5,940.00. (Estimate based on Kelley Blue Book).
Please note, I’m still waiting from their in-house adjuster with the 2 options amount offers.
Based on the summary above, can you give me tips on how proceed with this claim.
What happens if their offered is very low? What happens if I refused their offer?
Thanks for your help in this matter.
Regards,
AP11.
In many states, the insurance company is required by law to total the car if the damage is a certain % of fair market value.
so if you can boost the total fair market value, they might then fix the car.
I have to say though that your estimate of value seems quite high. I suspect $3,000--$3,500 is about right unless perhaps the car was in stunning condition with very low miles.
You might just pay the appraiser a small amount for a "look see" before he goes through an entire appraisal. He may encourage or discourage you.
Again, thanks for your advice.
Regards,
Ap11
I am dealing with an insurance company and would apprepriate some advice from car/insurance experts.
I paid about $25,000 in 2003 for a new Mazda 6, top of the line, fully loaded. This car has just 15000 miles on it now and it was hit while parked on the side of the street and it has been totalled. The KBB fair market value is $19,000 for retail and $14,500 for trade in. The insurance company (of the other driver) says they will pay me $15,000 for my car.
Given that I paid $25K (including tax & license) and will probably have to pay $19K + TL, which is about $21K, if I want to buy the same car back. The $15K figure from insurance company is not even close to what I conside fair.
What would be a fair amount that I should expect from the insurance company and if the offer from them is way off from this fair value, what options do I have?
Any help or suggestion is greatly apprepriated.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/index.html?tid=edmunds.g.home.header..2.*
And see what you get. Use the "customized appraisal" feature when that option pops up...it allows you to plug in options, your geographical location, color of the car, etc.
Insurance companies will rarely, if ever, offer you Kelley Blue Book retail. It's simply too high, as it tends to represent dealer asking prices. Edmunds is (usually) more in tune with actual realized prices.
If the Edmunds amount is more than what they are offering you, print out the Edmunds results and forward it to them...and the Kelley printout as well, why not?
If they don't raise their offer, you can go to non-binding arbitration and you can also sue them, since this is a third party insurance company that you didn't sign a deal with.
You'll have to read your policy regarding "betterment". Some companies have stricter policies than others, because they don't want to be responsible for insuring a Honda that someone has poured $100,000 into without telling them. Their argument is that you didn't pay premiums on a $100K car, so you don't get insured for a $100K car.
If you were offered a percentage of your betterment, I'd consider taking that. The rationale here is that your aftermarket parts are no longer new, they are "used parts" and should be valued as garage sale items, not new items.
Remember, you can bargain, offer receipts, and also go to arbitration. You don't have to settle for what they first offer you, but you do have to be realistic about the terms of your policy and what is attainable.
From the research we've done, it looks like the car could be worth anywhere from $3000 to $5000, but we're guessing it will be on the low side as we use this car for transporting food and it is only in fair condition. Our concern is that we use this van for business and can't afford to buy a new one unless we get the higher figure to use for a downpayment or that amount to repair it as that is what the estimate said it would be.
We are very worried because losing this car will affect our livelihood and don't know what to do. Any suggestions as to how we should proceed and how likely it will be that it will be considered totalled?
We are so grateful for any suggestions or information.
Best thing I can think of is for you to find out what the "buy-back clause" is, that is, what percentage of the van's value you have to pay to get the car back from the insurance company once they pay you fair market value for it. (usually it's like 10%-13%).
Then you can drive it on a salvage title, and take the money to hopefully find a cheaper body shop to get it looking decent again.
It's not fair I know, but you are kind of trapped in the system of how insurance works.
Your other alternative is to help the kid out and try to find a shop that will fix it for less than $5,000 (seems like a lot of money--did he back into it at 40 mph?), and let the kid pay you out of pocket.
I wouldn't "take payments" but I might take collateral + cash if he has anything of value.
You can go to any body shop you want even if insurance is paying. If you can get a body shop to fix it for maybe 80% of what the appraisal is, then it won't have to be totalled. But even if it's totalled, so what, if you can buy it back and drive it.
I'm thinking you could take say a $3,000 settlement, put it down on a 2006 Scion xB (a cheap van) and have payments of maybe $225 a month or so.
We live in PA - how do I find out the state's policy?
How do we figure out which fair market value to use? When I look at the Edmunds site, it lists three values (dealer trade-in, private party, and dealer retail). Am I correct in assuming that it's the dealer retail as that is what it would cost us to buy another one?
Should we tell the insurance company person that we have that $5000 estimate or see what they say?
If the van is only in fair shape, perhaps you could cut the old man a break and see what Miracle Auto Body would charge for the work. It seem a shame to put totally professional bodywork on a van that might be less than perfect...the repair might make the rest of the van look not so good....still you deserve at least a decent repair.
Probably you should use the Edmunds Dealer Price to show to the insurance company. That might be a bit more than your van in its present condition, but you're going to need all the armament you can get on this one.
I want to know how the insurance company will decide whether the car was totaled. Is it based on a percentage of total value or the type of damage done? It will probably be at least a week before an adjuster looks at the car and I am driving myself crazy thinking about "what ifs". The radiator was ripped out, the oil can busted, two doors won't open at all, 3 tires popped, 2 wheels bent (maybe broken axles), and that doesn't begin to describe what it looks like. I am scared!
My insurance company is State Farm. If anybody has a clue I would appreciate it!
Don't worry, you might come out all right on this. Sounds like a total to me, though.
I really appreciate everyone's previous advice and hope you don't mind if I ask for more.
Since I last posted, here's where we are:
To recap, my elderly neighbor backed into our 1995 Ford Clubwagon ($145,000 miles) and put a good size dent in it. We do not have collision on this vehicle and she admitted liability and her insurance company (Ohio Casualty) has accepted that.
Ohio sent out an appraiser who determined that the van was not totalled, but he said this was "predicated on the idea that the side panel of the van could be repaired - not replaced." They issued a check for $2076 to cover the cost of the repairs.
Originally, we had been told by one body shop that it would cost $5000 to replace the panel which would result in the van being totalled. We went around to at least six other places to see what they thought. The majority of them would not even consider doing a repair on the panel; they felt it needed to be replaced because there was "so much plastic involved." However, we did find one place that said they would try and repair it using a used panel and that it would more likely come in around $3500.
The appraiser from Ohio had instructed me to tell the shop to contact him if there was any discrepancy between Ohio's estimate for repair and the body shop's. They have been trying to reach the adjustor for the last couple of days and have not been able to do so. Now, they say that maybe they should get the car in there, take it apart, and then see what's happening. They hope they can get a used panel, but they're not sure. They also are not sure how it will look; probably look ok, but might be "wavy."
Our problem with this is that the van is still driveable and we need it for our business, so we can't afford to have it sitting somewhere while they take it apart and wait for the insurance company to get back to them.
So - what I am wondering now is what our rights are? Do we get a choice in how this goes down? In other words, if the van is not going to look that good, do we get the option of having it totalled and taking the money to put down on another van? We called the insurance adjustor to ask him what value the appraisor had given him, but he said that the appraisor hadn't assessed a value because the car was repairable. We asked him the question I posed above and he said that unless the apraisor told him the car was totalled, there was nothing he could do.
So - I'm not sure what the best thing to do is. The appraisor had mentioned that the car value might be around $4500, but nothing firm. Since the car is in what he considers "fair" condition (got this info. from the estimate we received), maybe it would be less? Still, we could get stuck with a van that is repaired for $2076, doesn't look that good, and then what?
Sorry to go on so long, but felt it important to lay out all the facts. Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
If a damage appraiser doesn't offer you enough to fix the van, then you take one or two estimates from body shops and complain to their insurance company.
If they say "oh, the van isn't worth that much", then they should offer you the fair market value for the van prior to damage, and this is done by a value appraiser, not a damage appraiser as a rule.
Of course, one person COULD do both I suppose, although personally if a total is involved I'd like to have an impartial inspection rather than have it done by an employee of the insurance company. You think he's going to be generous? Probably not.
Also, is it possible for them to consider a car repairable and then change their mind and consider it totalled?
In other words, does this mean that we might be able to "choose" between having the car repaired or having it totalled? I just don't have a sense of what leg we're standing on here. Can we argue that we may not be satisfied with the results of the repair (as several of the auto body shops have said) and so would rather have the car totalled (assuming of course we make out better in the latter scenario)?
So tell them "it's not enough. Nobody will fix the car properly for that".
Sure they can up their bid and total the car, but then they own it.
I appreciate the help. I'll let you know what happens.
My son hit a 1993 Ford Aerostar parked across the street as he was backing out. No damage to our bumper and appears to be minimal to left front fender and it also pushed in wheel well about 1". We informed neighbor, neighbor sees opportunity to get some money and now wants it all repaired of an estimated cost of $1,300. Repairs would add no value to van because blue book is only about $1,000 at best.(based on mileage,needs to trans, has no air and looks awful anyway) They want to go through our insurance company, get money and not bother with repairs.
Question: If a vehicle has been "totalled" will they be able to get insurance on it? Also, will it automatically go to a salvage yard? Is there a way a possible buyer can check to see if the van has once been "totalled?" Will they have to make the repairs once it is totalled? I know they want to take the money and not fix it. If it comes down to it, can we request money be sent to body shop and not given to them directly. Also, they can't prove that some of that damage wasn't already there. The whole things seems so crazy for a vehicle that already looks so bad.
I'm in California. Thanks for your help
Since these are neighbors you'd better let insurance handle it....then, if there's any bad news, it's not your fault.
I'm not sure what you mean about 'market'. If the high book value is $5,500, it's rather unlikely that the car is actually worth over 50% more than that, unless she's added all kinds of things to it.
If you don't want to accept the insurance company's settlement, you can hire your own appraiser and submit that appraisal to them (at your expense). If that new appraisal is higher than the insurance company's, they still don't have to pay you that---if they don't pay you the higher amount, you have to go into arbitration to dispute it (partially at your expense).
cost of appraisal + arbitration will be about $500. If the difference between your appraiser's # and the insurance company's # is a few thousand dollars, this might be worth it. If it's only $500--$1,000, you may not end up with a gain.
If you don't accept the insurance company's offer or the arbitrator's offer, you can probably sue the other person's insurance company (you can't really sue your own I don't think, since you have a contract for arbitration--but you didn't sign one with the other person's insurance company).
Given the damage, you'd probably be better off just buying a similar Protege with the settlement money. How you gonna drive around without a trunk that opens?
David
Sounds like a total. Remember you are also entitled to sales tax and license fees on top of the amount they offer you, and you don't have to accept their offer---you can go into arbitration if there is a wide difference between what they think and what you think.
Heads up---they may not reach the Kelley Blue Book price, which tends to be high. If they match Kelley, I'd say take it and move on to better things--unless of course you have modified the bike considerably and have a custom bike.