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What Wagon Would You Like To See Offered?
As we've seen in the industry, wagons are making a comeback in the marketplace. Whether it's because of fuel prices, maneuverability, or people just need a little more room than a regular trunk provides, the automakers have made an effort to meet the demands and desires of the buying public.
Just not completely.
In this discussion, you can become a product planner. Tell us which wagon is not available and should be. Foreign or domestic, large/medium/small, gasoline/diesel/hybrid - think about the list of cars out there that don't have a wagon version, and give a compelling reason to build it.
Here are the rules:
- if you are suggesting a new wagon, you must tell us why you will buy it if it's offered
- if you disagree with a suggesytion, debate the car, not the person who suggested it.
Be imaginative - here we go!
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and Wagons Message Boards
Just not completely.
In this discussion, you can become a product planner. Tell us which wagon is not available and should be. Foreign or domestic, large/medium/small, gasoline/diesel/hybrid - think about the list of cars out there that don't have a wagon version, and give a compelling reason to build it.
Here are the rules:
- if you are suggesting a new wagon, you must tell us why you will buy it if it's offered
- if you disagree with a suggesytion, debate the car, not the person who suggested it.
Be imaginative - here we go!
kcram
Host
Smart Shopper and Wagons Message Boards
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
If Honda or Toyota offered a Camry or Accord wagon they would have something with the room of most SUV's and the economy and handling of a car.
Passat and Mazda 6 come close, but they are smaller and less efficient than the Camry and Accord. Reliability could also be an issue with the Passat.
To really put icing on the cake offer the new 2.2 liter diesel engine available in Europe with the Accord wagon. 50 mpg with room for 5 people and their luggage in a reliable, nice riding, nice handling, relatively inexpensive package - what a refreshing change that would be.
Will never happen though because it will take away too many sales from much more profitable SUV's.
they already have it in Japan (for 2 years now).
I've owned four (real) full-sized wagons over a 45-year period. Three Dodges and the 1989 Chevy Caprice (155,000 mi) I have now. All were driven well over 100K mi with extensive major repairs; yet, all were VERY economical over their full lives.
Plus, I have driven an '98 Merc Sable wagon owned by a friend for the past four years --also an economical, reliable wagon.
Here's what I need:
Size: Bigger than Taurus/Sable and Dodge Magnum. Length at least 84" in cargo space with front seats all the way back -- that's 7.5" more than Taurus.
Width: min 42" at narrowest part (fits golf bag with long handled clubs and max driver head.)
Height: 24" tailgate opening to 18" either side of center -- Magnum fails big time here.
Engine choices: include a reasonably powered V-6 and a V-8, coupled with a 4 or 5 spd trans w OD. Dodge's 3.5L appears about right. No problem with Ford's Duratech V-6 either. This bigger car might need a small V-8 of about 4.5L.
Driver seat/legroom: People have been steadily getting taller, but cars don't accommodate us tall 'ums as well as they used to. Taurus not good in this dept; Magnum is the standard. Test: driver 6'-2" with 35" inseam has to be able to move from accelerator to brake instantly w/o knee touching steering wheel. Magnum's tilt / telescoping wheel is really helpful here. Adjustable peds may help also; except that I SUSPECT all the adjustment is towards the driver (as referenced against the height of a non-adjust ped).
Cargo area: should be designed to carry cargo. If there is a 3rd seat, make it optional. Floor should be completely rigid and flat (Caprice is the standard) and sides made of indestructible plastic. Carpeting's major characteristic should be "anti-wear".
Roof rack: offer one. Include easily adjustable cross rails and make rack so that accessory cross rails fit (for bikes, cargo carriers, etc). Put strong ribs in the roof and trim them with strong, well fastened, stainless runners. (Honda Odyssey is notably missing these features).
Drivability: Cradle the front passengers in firm bucket seats with (relatively) high side support and adjustable lumbar support. Provide height adjustment. Create a firm ride and firm steering so that you feel comfortable in tight turns at moderately high speeds. But be comfortable over rough terrain.
Cruise control: Put controls on steering wheel (like Sable Wagon).
Stereo: Base model should have dynamite sound (as measured against OEM -- not custom -- offerings). Reference should be '98 Sable system, where front speakers are at chest level. Controls should include a rotary tuning knob and easily accessable balance/fade controls.
Upholstery: offer a durable cloth trimmed with vinyl or leather. Should be easily cleaned.
Safety: Insure all seats have headrests; if necessary, make them removeable to allow seats to stow FLAT. Fit the best, strongest child seat rearward facing in the 2nd seat and dimension car so that front seat can be positioned all the way back (my son's huge Buick Roadmaster wagon can't fit these seats in without moving the front seat WAY forward!).
Remember: Build It and They Will Come
Start with a Scion xB.
Stretch by 3 feet.
Add 3rd set of doors and duplicate the rear seats.
Add the Toyota hybrid system to the engine the car comes with.
It would be 8" shorter than a Sable Wagon, but with a much longer wheelbase - the engineers would need to make sure it could turn very sharply. The passenger room would be ummatched. If you had a lot of bags, fold the 3rd row down. Make sure the load capacity is at least 1500#.
--
Bill
Stretched Xb sure would have a lot of room.
yeah, there ya go!
A full size wagon with "quadra steer" !!
Now we're talkin'
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
--
Bill
People seemed to take it personally on the Mazda6 wagon board though, and did not even want a 4-cylinder available even if they could keep their v-6's. Go figure.
It would have more room than most SUV's along with an incredible ride and the handling of a car. It gets 22/31 EPA mpg (better than some 4-cylinder cars) with a 280 hp V-6. It would suit the needs of the "active lifestyle" "near luxury" types 99.99% of the time.
Unfortunately people don't buy what they need, and manufacturers don't build what people need.
Image is everything.
Of course it would be called "Safari"
I would have loved the Magnum if it had more normal window openings, a windshield header that didn't start so far forward (can't see stoplights), a flat folding front passenger seat and a turbo diesel for 40 mpg.
Am I expecting too much from the American auto industry?
kcram
Host - Wagons
I would buy the Accord Wagon in a heartbeat and told the salesperson so. Have looked at a Pilot and Ody and Mazda6 Wagon (great styling but too small)
Would like to see
(a) a Pilot with FWD and no AWD, better mileage and more room in back. If that sounds like an Ody, the new Ody has too many teething problems. Also the seating position was not comfortable for me. Wife didn't like the armrest.
(b) A Ford Freestyle built by honda or Toyota for quality. And add a 350 Hp engine and a regular transmission.
(c) A toyota Highlander made bigger.
In other words I love the Japanese cars but they need to be bigger.
I'd guy the Toyota or Honda comparable in style to the 3 because the vehicle would be economical from an overall price and gas usage standpoint. It would be more usesful then a sedan and I'd have more confidence in reliability from these two makers. If they made one, they'd fly off the lots.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
I am currently looking around for a good 1.5 liter 4 cyl wagon to replace my highly reliable 15 year old 1990 Plymouth Colt SW (Mitsubishi import). The car was three years old when I purchased it. In 15 years it broke down only once - right outside my house - the engine control module ECM went bad. I diagnosed and fixed myself. It was easy to verify the problem without having to purchase a OBDII code reading scanning tool. It cost me only $175 to have the ECM repaired including a 2 year warranty. The car runs good but it is starting to leak Antifreeze and Oil. 1990 was the good old days.
Looked around at the Subaru Legacy/Outback wagons but I really don't need 4WD and they are way too expensive for what you get.
Ford Focus Wagon is turning into a piece of junk just like the Ford Escort Wagons.
The Ford freestyle looks almost like my Plymouth Colt but I know Ford will not reproduce the quality and reliability.
Scion XB - a little too boxy and hard to read center mtd instrument cluster. I love all the air bags, ABS and stability control it offered.
I hate the skirting around the Matrix and Vibe. Not to mention that the gearshift interferes with reaching the climate controls. Whats up with that big gap beween the gearshift and the armreasts? Lacks sportyness and road feel.
Mazda 6 - why not a 4 cyl offered? I would buy one today if it did.
Mazda 3 - Who was on drugs when they designed the center console radio?
European Cars - SAAB, Volvo, Volkswagon, Mercedes, BMW. Too expensive to purchase and operate. My feeling is parts and servicing will always be at a premium.
Others I have considered:
Saturn Wagon - looked promising when first produced but whet downhill ever since.
Mazda 5 - Not bad but, dealers have been selling at premium pricing as there is not many competing models.
Mitsubishi Lancer Sportback - very rare find.
Hyundai Elantra Wagon - rare find.
Kia Rio Cinco - only $12-$13k new. 10year/100k powertrain warranty. Maybe.... (unfortunately it is based on the junk Ford Aspire)
Suzuki Forenza LX only $15-$16k new.
:confuse: Anybody else have any ideas?
Deron Benedict
Columbia PA
I am currently looking around for a good 1.5 liter 4 cyl wagon to replace my highly reliable 15 year old 1990 Plymouth Colt SW (Mitsubishi import). The car was three years old when I purchased it. In 15 years it broke down only once - right outside my house - the engine control module ECM went bad. I diagnosed and fixed myself. It was easy to verify the problem without having to purchase a OBDII code reading scanning tool. It cost me only $175 to have the ECM repaired including a 2 year warranty. The car runs good but it is starting to leak Antifreeze and Oil. 1990 was the good old days.
Looked around at the Subaru Legacy/Outback wagons but I really don't need 4WD and they are way too expensive for what you get.
Ford Focus Wagon is turning into a piece of junk just like the Ford Escort Wagons.
The Ford freestyle looks almost like my Plymouth Colt but I know Ford will not reproduce the quality and reliability.
Scion XB - a little too boxy and hard to read center mtd instrument cluster. I love all the air bags, ABS and stability control it offered.
I hate the skirting around the Matrix and Vibe. Not to mention that the gearshift interferes with reaching the climate controls. Whats up with that big gap beween the gearshift and the armreasts? Lacks sportyness and road feel.
Mazda 6 - why not a 4 cyl offered? I would buy one today if it did.
Mazda 3 - Who was on drugs when they designed the center console radio?
European Cars - SAAB, Volvo, Volkswagon, Mercedes, BMW. Too expensive to purchase and operate. My feeling is parts and servicing will always be at a premium.
Others I have considered:
Saturn Wagon - looked promising when first produced but whet downhill ever since.
Mazda 5 - Not bad but, dealers have been selling at premium pricing as there is not many competing models.
Mitsubishi Lancer Sportback - very rare find.
Hyundai Elantra Wagon - rare find.
Kia Rio Cinco - only $12-$13k new. 10year/100k powertrain warranty. Maybe.... (unfortunately it is based on the junk Ford Aspire)
Suzuki Forenza LX only $15-$16k new.
:confuse: Anybody else have any ideas?
Deron Benedict
Columbia PA
not quite sure if this was posted here before. My impression of a Acura RL wagon:
http://www.cwwcardesign.com/cars/acurarl.html
Greetings
André
For example, if the Corolla had a hatch, similar to the 3, I'd likely buy the Corolla. Maybe I'm a fool and the 3 would be just as reliable, but you go with what you know/think and that is the perception that is out there for many people. So, that is why even though I agree that many of the cars are "soul-less", people will always buy them.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
People say the 6 wagon is so nice yet you don't see many on the road. Probably because of the gas guzzling and small reliability concerns. I think if Honda or Toyo had something similar they would be all over the roads. It just seems so obvious that these guys are missing a MAJOR market opportunity.
Not that bad! I am now getting around 20 mpg in-town driving and 24 highway, definitely better than minivan but not as good as I would like.
you don't see many on the road
Well, it's only been out a year and many people had kind of forgotten about Mazda after the late 90's. It takes time to recover from a drop like that. I do see sales are up, and apparently they're very popular overseas. So they're back on track at least.
I agree that Honda and Toyota are missing the boat, but don't diss the 6! It's a great wagon and a lot of fun to drive. If they improve the gas mileage by the time Honda and Toyota finally get with it, they could have a real edge in this market. The hatch is also unusual in America and also in a good market position because of that.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
All in all, we agree.
What did you pay for your 6? It seems that they are discounting it so much that you can almost get a 6 wagon for not much more then a 3 hatch. Maybe I'm way off, but that is what I've been reading...could be wrong. That's why I'm curious what you paid.
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
Mazda 6 20/27 and 19/26 depending on tranny.
A Chevy Malibu with a 3.5 liter V-6 gets 22/32.
A Buick Lesabre with a 3.8 gets 20/29
The huge new Avalon with a 280 hp 3.5 liter V-6 gets 22/31
BMW 530i gets 20/30
Even a Corvette gets 18/28 with a 6.0 liter V-8 that has 400 hp. :surprise:
The list is long. In fact I can't think of a v-6 car that gets worse mpg than the 6. Hopefully Mazda will work on the engine. The 3 on the other hand is very efficient - at least in 2.0 liter form. If they made the 3 as a real wagon (a little more cargo room) and offered it with the 2.0 that would probably be my top choice for vehicles right now.
PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
One problem is, those "nice" wagons are on the small side. If you want a vehicle that seats 4 American adults comfortably, you're out of luck with most of them. Also, the best of the small wagons (the Mazda 6) is a gas-guzzler for reasons I can't fathom (OK, it's efficient compared to SUV alternatives, but a car with its low Cd and a 3.0 V6 should be capable of 20/30 EPA or better). Finally, I think people long for a Toyota or Honda designed wagon because those companies are currently at the top of the reliability heap, and (together with Nissan) seem to have the best powertrains (high performance and high efficiency).
My last car was a 94 Camry wagon. It was reasonably powerful and got OK gas mileage for the day, was very versatile, was roomy without being too huge to manuever in traffic or park, and was extremely reliable. Best car I ever owned. I was saddened to see Toyota turn to the dark side (along with everyone else except the Euros) and embrace minivans and the SUV as wagon replacements. Not everyone that values versatility in a vehicle wants one that handles like a van, or worse, a truck. The wagon hits a sweet spot for people that want to get as close as possible to sedan performance and handling, but still want the flexibility to haul stuff around once in a while.
When age finally caught up with it late last year, I could only really find a car in that same class by going Euro (MB E-series, BMW 5-series, Audi A6, Volvo). Unfortunately most of those marques have slipped in reliability. And they're big bucks, which would be a problem for most wagon buyers. That kinda left either downsizing to the Subaru, Mazda 6, Malibu Maxx, or downsizing even further to the Matrix, Vibe, or something similar. In a Toyota, the closest I can come is the Prius, which does have a 5th door, but is of a size comparable to the smaller wagons; unfortunately it's a bit underpowered.
Actually, if they offered a true wagon body for the Prius, I'd probably have bought it despite the somewhat weak powertrain. As it stands, the sloping rear roofline means adults hit their heads against the hatch in the back seat; they should reshape it to look like a smaller version of the back end of the Lexus RX. I considered the Lexus RX400h, and am actually still on the wait list for it even though I threw in the towel last month and bought a GS sedan with comfortable seating for 4 but no cargo versatility. What I'd really like is a wagon the same size as my old 94 Camry, or the current MB E-series wagon, with FWD, a full hybrid powertrain (Toyota's or something similar), and with build quality similar to or better than the Camry of old (or, and I can dream, of quality comparable to my GS).
BTW my Camry was built in Lexington, Kentucky, so it ain't like American workers can't build a good car. Where domestic manufacturers seem to be blowing it is in design of both vechicles and important components (especially powertrains). Too many years of raking in the bucks on gargantuan gas-wasting truck-platform SUVs, maybe.
--
Bill
OK. That does it.
Go buy a Suzuki Forenza Wagon. There is your SMART Choice.
Forenza is Car and Drivers Best Top 10 Pick.
It has won awards 5 years in a Row.
It is built by Daewoo, Korea.
It used to be called Nubira.
Maybe you'll be the NewBuyer (Nubiar)
SoSucki has had numerous issues with the car, but they do sell.
It was penned by Peninfarina.....then someone dug that one out of the waste bin and said 'here ya go' (Design houses have trash cans too...)
You can get a used Nubira Wagon for $2000.
I've owned a Ford Focus SE wagon since Feb. '03.
It has been the most enjoyable small car I've ever owned.
Don't be fool enough to get an '05 though, if you want one, my advice would be to get an '03 ZTW with less tha 20,000 miles for no more than $11,000 and make sure all Maint records are there. The '03 was the deal, after that they started trimming bits and pieces, and the rebates on the '05 only bring it down to the '03 price. (what I paid $17,900 for now costs close to $19,500)
The '03 Focus is a HIGHLY RELIABLE small wagon.
I really only see 2 out there that come close: The new Benz R-class and the Chrysler Pacifica. The Benz is $50K!! And the Chrysler is... well... a Chrysler. I'm not saying its bad, but choices would be nice. Oh, and you can get the Volvo V70 with a 3rd row, but, again, its a bit pricey. I'd love to see Nissan/Toyota/Honda offer a 3 row wagon. I'd even be happier if Mazda added one to the 6. But I'd definitely be happiest with an Accord wagon with jumper seats.
And, yes, I know about the Mazda5, but it really is more of a minivan. Besides, my wife thinks its ugly, and i'm disappointed they don't offer leather.
By the way, I'm predicting the Benz will fail in our market and they'll respond with "americans just don't want wagons" rather than realizing we don't want a $50K wagon!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Chrysler & Mercedes = Same company what's your point??
Don't take it personally, I just bought a Pacifica this weekend, so I'm not exactly trashing Chrysler. I hope it holds up better than I expect and proves my misconceptions wrong. I already know resale on this vehicle is horrible, but we can get out of it in 3 years if we choose. If the wife continues to love it, we'll keep it longer than that.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S