Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

stickguy · January 2005

send it to Overhaulin. ANyway, how many 6 cyls are left without rust? None in the NE!

my '67 was a 6 cyl powerglide (first and last AT I ever owned), that was shot when I got it in '79. No trunk floor or rear fenders to speak of.

A 350 '69 had some sort of THM tranny.

BTW, don't try to speed shift an old PG. It won't like it. Trust me.

michaellno · January 2005

had a '69 Camaro when he turned 16 (in 1978). 350 with a 3-speed auto. Not sure if it was an RS or not, but it was pretty nice! White, with a black vinyl top and black interior.

My uncle initially drove it from PA to CA, then it lived the rest of its life in CA. IIRC, the Camaro got sold for, of all things, a Vega! Can't remember why he did such a fool thing.

andys120 · January 2005

"Can't remember why he did such a fool thing."

The Arab Oil Embargo of 1973. It made a lot of people do crazy things.

andre1969 · January 2005

a lot of people did things with their cars that would seem foolish today. My Mom bought a '66 Catalina convertible, brand-new, when she was only 17.

By 1972, she was married and had me, and didn't like the idea of driving a small child around in a convertible. Well there was that, and the fact that my Dad would drive that car pretty hard, and I think the brakes were shot.

But anyway, my grandparents had a '68 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 327 (dunno if it was a 2-speed or 3-speed automatic, though), and they were thinking about getting a new car. So they did a swap with my Mom, and then traded the Catalina in on a new '72 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 350-2bbl. I was too young to remember the Catalina, but I do remember the '68 Impala, vaguely. I'm sure the Catalina was much cooler, though!

michaellno · January 2005

I suppose the 2nd oil crisis of '79 might have had something to do with it, but I seem to remember that he had that car for at least a few years, then got the Vega, which he rebuilt pretty much from scratch. That got traded in on a Olds Cutlass 2 door (early 80's vintage, I think) when he went into the Air Force. Of course, he got sent to Germany, so the Cutlass stayed in the US.

Ah, the cars we wish we (or our parents, or some other relative) had hung on to!

My uncle had a late 60's Datsun 1600 roadster for a while .. I really wanted that, but he ended up selling it and started a relationship with a series of Volvo sedans.

210delray · January 2005

"Ah, the cars we wish we (or our parents, or some other relative) had hung on to!"

Like the '55 Chevy 2-door sedan my mother had until 1961. Ok, it wasn't a Bel Air, and it had only the six and a 3-speed, but still...it was sky blue with a white roof...gorgeous.

She sold it to my uncle who passed it down to his son (my cousin). The last time I saw it was in about 1964.

And yes Andre, the '66 Pontiacs were definitely cooler than the '68 Chevys! Any full-size Pontiac from 1961-66 is beautiful in my book, as was the 1969. The Tempest/LeMans/GTOs also were lookers from 1964-72.

fintail · January 2005

Or the beautiful white on red 61 Impala convert my mother had some time before I was born. She paid $800 for it!

I grew up in the 80s...I don't yearn for any of my parents cars during my childhood. S-10 Blazer, Ciera, Horizon, 5000, etc...no thanks.

andys120 · January 2005

My family's taste in cars has always been entirely pedestrian and unexciting. The coolest car my folks ever had was a '68 Firebird 326 (which they hated and traded in on a Buick ca. '73.) other than that it was a dreary procession of lackluster 4-doors and pimped up coupes (like the aforementioned Buick Regal).

I've already owned way more cool cars than they've ever had.

ghulet · January 2005

...I dunno if this has been established here or not, but unless they transplanted a 327/PG in a real SS (unlikely), that SS is a fake. Unlike Impalas (up to '68, anyway), where one could buy the SS equipment with ANY engine (even a six), '67-69 Camaros with SS equipment automatically had the 295-300hp (4-barrel) 350 as the base engine, with any of two or three 396s as upgrades.

In any case, I wouldn't advise junking it, the car looks fairly decent despite the underbody rust. Too nice for a parts car. At $12k for a base car with no notable interesting options and lots of underbody rust, though, I can't see putting a bunch more money into it. This car isn't beyond hope, it's just overpriced.

blh7068 · January 2005

"The coolest car my folks ever had was a '68 Firebird 326"

Not to nitpick...

If it was a '68 the base V-8 was the 350...'67 (the first year of the bird) was the only year the 326 could be had in that car, and consequently was the last year for the pontiac 326.

andys120 · January 2005

Well it was definitely a 326 so it must have been the first time that my folks have ever been early adopters :_)

They owned a Pontiac before that that was semi-cool,

a 389 Catalina 4-door HT. We had to lobby my Dad heavily to get him to go for the HT over the dowdy posted sedan.

The fact that the car would spin tires in second gear was as much because of the bias ply

whitewalls as the prodigious torque of the 389 (it's not like it was a Tri-Power or anything.)

andre1969 · January 2005

here's one that really gets my goat (and no, I'm not talking GTO here...) Okay, you all know how much I love '57 Mopars, right?

Well, my Mom's first car was a 1957 Plymouth! She bought it in 1965, for like 75 bucks. And she hated it! She doesn't remember much about it, except that "it was gray, and it was big". Out of all the wild and erotic colors available in the 50's, leave it to my mother to find a gray one! And she also remembers that one of the windows shattered when a door got slammed too hard!

But she doesn't remember what engine it had, what series it was, what body style, or anything! It was just a car that she got because she needed some cheap wheels, but she hated it the whole time she had it.

And to think that she'd ultimately have a son who, if he had something like that, would cherish it! Even if it was just some cheap Plaza 4-door sedan with a 6-cyl!

Anyway, after the Plymouth, she had a pink and black '59 Rambler station wagon. I think she paid about $200-300 for that one. Then she got the Catalina.

And, in being a typical mother, she had a fit when I bought my '67 Catalina! Carried on about me having convertible, and how dangerous they are, and all that fun stuff. Funny how parents forget the things they had and did when they were younger...

One thing though, I guess, is that my family's cars didn't get TOO emasculated in the 70's. The '68 Impala gave way to a '75 LeMans sport coupe with a Pontiac 350. I'm guessing it was just a base 2-bbl model. I actually hated that car as a kid. I think it was partly because it was this loud bronzish copperish color (a color that's common again nowadays, you see it alot on Neons and Muranos and such), and even back then, I tended to like blues and non-pukey greens. Another issue, though, might have been that square/rectangular headlights, and more squared-off, conservative styling in general, started to become much more prevalent in 1976, and here we were in this flambouyant thing that had curves up the wazoo and these big round singular headlights in an ugly color that just seemed so out of place. And that thing really looked ancient by 1980, when she traded it on a new Malibu coupe that appeared throughly modern, well-proportioned, and up-to-date. And in a color I liked better: medium blue. Mom actually let me pick out the color on that one ;-)

Looking back though, I think now I'd rather have the LeMans. Although considering the added weight, I doubt it's 350 was much quicker than the Malibu with its 229 V-6.

andre1969 · January 2005

if it makes ya feel better, my '67 Catalina can spin its tires going into second gear too, and it has radials! ;-) Sometimes if I try REALLY hard, I can get it to chirp going into 3rd, as well!

210delray · January 2005

About the perceived lack of safety of your '67 Catalina, you could tell your mother that even though it has only lap belts and no rollover protection, its "road-hugging weight" will protect you quite well in a collision with an average-size modern car! And it even has a collapsible steering column.

Just don't hit a Dodge Ram!

210delray · January 2005

My aunt bought one new; it was a red Savoy 4-door sedan with a black and white cloth and vinyl interior. I think the black cloth had some silvery threads in it. It was a six with whatever auto transmission came with that lowly engine.

Great looking car, but she had a lot of trouble with it (too young to remember the details), and traded it in for a '59 "batwing" Chevy Bel Air 4-door sedan. She never went back to Mopar again.

I understand now that the Plymouth six was a hoary old side-valve design that made a lot of noise but not much power.

scscars · January 2005

scscars · January 2005

Oops! Sorry about the earlier post. This is a great discussion.

In my family, my parents didn't go for "cool" cars as they were partial to Plymouth station wagons, including a '65 Fury III that I ultimately wound up with. But, I had an uncle that did own at least three cars that I would buy in a heartbeat if anything close to them turned up in Hemmings or at an auction.

When I was growing up, my uncle was partial to Thunderbirds. His first was a white '59. I'm not sure of the engine that it came with. It was either a 352 or 390. Big for its day and quick. Even though I was just 5 years old then, I knew then that I wanted a T-Bird just based on that white '59.

The '59 was traded 3 years later for a gold '62 with a black "landau" roof. That car had a steering wheel that swiveled out of the driver's way when the drivers door was opened. Back then, I thought that was cooler than Elvis! The '62 was powered by a 390 engine that was great on the highway.

A few years later, the '62 wound up being traded for a metallic sky blue '67 with a black landau roof, suicide doors, and a 428. Just before I turned 16, I made my uncle an offer on this beauty, but he wouldn't sell. Instead, he traded it for an ugly looking '70 T-Bird in nutmeg and white. By then, T-Birds had become just another luxoboat, and I wasn't interested in it.

A few years ago, a co-worker where I worked owned a '63 T-Bird convertible with a tonneau cover(!) that was her pride and joy. The car wasn't for sale, and every summer I see her husband driving it around town. Lucky guy!

gsemike · January 2005

never had anything remotely cool. They were typical city folk. Never had a car until they were married and then always went for staid family cars. My Dad had a Capri with a stick for a few years. That kind of broke the mold but that's it. It's unbelievable that my brother and I turned out to be the auto enthusiasts that we are. That must be a Long Island thing.

ghulet · January 2005

....mine didn't have anything too fun when they were married ('68-78), lemme think, a '64 Bug, '71 Datsun 510, '72 Chevy pickup, then one or the other had a '74 Civic, '80 Fiat Brava, '81 VW Scirocco, '87 944, '88 300E, Mazdas, a Hyundai, lots of strange foreign stuff. The closest my parents had to the big American land yachts I like was my stepdad's '69 Impala four-door hardtop (bought from mom's co-worker for $50!!).

andre1969 · January 2005

had a few cool cars, but unfortunately most of them were either POS-editions when he got them, or he soon turned them into that!

I get the order mixed up sometimes, but I think his first car was a '64 Ford Galaxie 500 2-door hardtop with a 390. He's told me that he hated that car when he had it because it was a Ford and he wanted an SS 409 sooo bad. But in retrospect, he says it was probably the best car he ever had!

After that came a '63 Impala SS409, the 425 hp version. It had a 4-speed. I think that one set him back like $1600, when it was only 2 years old. I guess even back then, if it had a stick, it depreciated like a rock! Wouldn't an SS409 be pretty expensive new, even a stripper? He did a few annoying things with it though, like putting 6-cylinder badges on the fenders, and a hood scoop from a '63 or so Plymouth or Dodge.

After that he had a '65 Impala SS, which I think had a 396. Also a 4-speed. I think that one threw a rod or something like that. It had been pretty ragged when he got it.

Then he went on to a '62 Corvette. I remember this car only vaguely. I know he hit a taxi cab with it, which broke a taillight on the cab but shattered the fiberglass fender and door on the Vette! And it had a big happy face painted on the underside of the hood, for whatever reason.

Then there was a '64 GTO 2-door post. I still remember the night be brought this one home. My Mom and me followed him, and I could see sparks showering from under the car from the exhaust or something dragging. It was a primer grayish-black. I was actually afraid of that car as a kid! I think he paid $400 for it, and sold it for $400 awhile later.

The last thing I remember him driving was a light metallic green '71 Torino 4-door that he inherited when my great Granddad died around 1977. By that time, Mom & Dad were separated. I'm sure my Dad hated driving something that mundane that screamed "family" after all those other cars he had, but at this point he just needed some wheels.

He moved to Florida in '78, maybe early '79. I forget what happened to that Ford. I think the 289 or 302 or whatever it had in it simply expired. The last car he had, which I never saw, but heard about, was a 1966 Pontiac Executive 4-door hardtop, metallic blue with a white painted (not vinyl) top. Then along comes a DUI, and away goes that car. I think that was in 1984.

Now, he drives a 2003 Buick Regal LS. Nice, conservative silver family car that pretty much flies under the radar, although the way Dad drives now, I think the cops would overlook him if he were in a Ferrari with dead tags! He's told me a few times that if he had bought a car like this when he was younger, it would have kept him out of an awful lot of trouble over the years!

He'll still look through the paper in the antiques and classics section though, to see what's out there. Today he told me about this ad, which I quote, verbatim...

"Desoata '55 -- Complete car w/ numerous extra parts, Hemi engine, $800." That's all I know about it, but the phone # indicates that it's pretty close to me. I'm thinking about going to at least check it out. I think it's funny though, that they can't spell the name of their own car, but they know it has a Hemi in it! Although whomever wrote the ad at the paper couldv'e mis-spelled it I guess.

andys120 · January 2005

Wouldn't an SS409 be pretty expensive new, even a stripper?

Yes and no, Andre. The 409/425 motor itself was probably $500-600 which was a healthy but not unreasonable amount in those days.

The SS option itself was mostly trim on the early cars, consequently not more than $200 or $300. The fact that your Dad's car was an Impala SS with the top optional engine and four-speed would suggest that it probably had other nice options on it but not neccessarily. Everything was ala carte back then, even gearing.

I'd guess the car stickered around $5,000 new which was healthy change when a stripper Biscayne could be had for perhaps $3300, IIRC (it was a long time ago, bro).

lemko · January 2005

...a 1955 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Starfire convertible in two-tone green and a 1965 Pontiac GTO convertible in maroon with a white top. Both cars are long gone.

My Uncle Daniel had three really awesome cars: a dark blue metallic 1970 Chevrolet Impala Custom with the unique concave back window, a 1973 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, and a 1975 Lincoln Continental sedan. Today, Unc drives an SUV. Yuck!

At least my cousins still have cool cars. My cousin Raymond has a 1969 Shelby Mustang and two others have twin 1957 Chevrolets.

andys120 · January 2005

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetai- l/id/2166624

But I'd happily pay this price now (if I had the dough LOL).

andys120 · January 2005

this car needs just about everything but it is a '57 Chevy....

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetail/id- /2172209

$3 Grand??

lemko · January 2005

$3K wouldn't be bad.

andys120 · January 2005

andre1969 · January 2005

that it would be referred to as a "Handyman's special". I think that's what the 150 wagon was called when it was new...the "150 Handyman"!

What would something like that be worth fully restored? I know station wagons can often be a hot commodity, which is odd because for decades they were considered loser cars. If I were to take a wild stab, I'd say maybe $8-10K fully restored? I know I'm probably out of touch, though!

gsemike · January 2005

57s have a certain elan in the minds of most enthusiasts so I would bet that could go higher than $8k to $10k if it benefited from a prefessional restoration and classy hot rod treatment.

Personally, I like 56s and 58s just as much, but it seems like for most, 57 is it.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

I wouldn't even bother to restore a car like that. It looks like a pile of junk. You'd never get your money out. As Andy said, it's not a Nomad, and that's where the desire, and the market hunger, lies. Not in these plain jane utility vehicles.

It'd cost you $20K to have a car worth $12K if it were a trophy winning trailer queen of Pebble Beach quality, polished to a mirror finish and purchased by a drunken billionaire.

Given this car's needs, you are doomed financially.

If it were cleaner, or a "survivor", it might be fun to have. For $3K it should be running and cleaner than it is. For $7,500, you could buy a pretty nice one.

andys120 · January 2005

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/dealers.detail/hmn_vehic- - le_id/215663

...but I can only gasp in disbelief at the price of $45K!

What's it worth to own the best 1300cc sports car ever made? I think

I'd rather park it in my wallpaper for a while for free.

andre1969 · January 2005

Will a Chevy smallblock fit in it?

seminole_kev · January 2005

if you say that one more time, I'm going to smash up some old Desotos with a sledge-hammer.

;-)

fintail · January 2005

Is that really a 55? Something doesn't seem right.

stickguy · January 2005

I think they made a mistake. if you read the description, it sounds like it is a '65 Veloce model. Darn nice loking car though.

fintail · January 2005

Aah yes I see now, it was hard to read the narrow column...yeah that's it

Very pretty car, but I think I could do better with the money

andys120 · January 2005

Good catch Fin. The '65s didn't look very different from the earliest Giuliettas of a decade before.

We were talking about '57 Nomads, this one looks worthwhile..

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetail/id- - /2172184

Dunno how much non-stock drivetrain and wheels detract from the ultimate value of a Nomad.

stickguy · January 2005

On that Nomad, they already killed the originality. Might as well throw on modern suspension and brakes and turn it into a real resto mod.

Barrett-Jackson starts next week! Not gonna see any project cars there, but I predict that these "restomods" will be prevelant.

andre1969 · January 2005

on that Nomad that they swapped the engine, as long as they swapped it with something similar. For instance, pulling out one Chevy smallblock and putting in another one, I don't really mind. In my mind, the real bastardization starts when they try to put in an Oldsmobile block or a Mopar block or a Ford block. Or a Chevy big-block.

The thing that bugs me though, is when they start messing with the interior, as they did with this one. My first thought with something like that is now much would it cost to fix it back the way it should be?

Now that being said, I think I'll go clear the snow off of my '68 Dart 270 with the '69 Dart GT door panels and carpet, and the early 70's A-body vinyl interior ;-)

fintail · January 2005

The interior bugs me too. I can't count the amount of 50s and 60s cars I have seen with 80s and 90s style velour, or improper vinyl.

Back in the early 90s when my dad was experiencing his old car bug, he knew a guy with a similar Nomad, a black and white 57 with a 350 and rallye wheels. Othwerwise, it was pretty stock - interior included, and well done. I remember the guy wanted $25K for it, which I thought was outrageous for a car with incorrect details.

fintail · January 2005

I wonder if this is worth saving

andre1969 · January 2005

but not at that price! Those 8-lug wheels are cool and desireable. However, I think with those, the wheel and brake drum are actually the same part, so if you score up your drums, you're pretty much screwed!

Also, I think a 389 in a '64 Grand Prix is a pretty basic engine. Now if it were a 421, it might be worth something! So basically here, I'd say maybe $1500-2000 in its current condition?

andys120 · January 2005

Yup, base motor for the '63-'64 GPs was the redoubtable 389. It's really kinda hard to gauge what a pretty good car with a duff engine might be worth.

IMO '63 and '64 were the best years for the GP and the golden era of Pontiac.

seminole_kev · January 2005

as long as the tin worm hasn't got ahold of it or anything, I would be interested in that. The price is a little bit high, but not bad. I vote to save that one. Probably won't make you money as a collector, but I don't think it is too bad.

I like the looks of those by the way.

The only thing I hate about a car not running is that it doesn't give you a chance to check out what else might be wrong with it. Depending on what's wrong with it, maybe a rebuild, maybe just pull another motor and drop her in. I could live with it if everything else checked out.

fintail · January 2005

Yeah, I guess I meant to say at the price. The car certainly is not beyond hope. I wonder if an engine can really be redone for around 2 grand? I am used to MBs where the parts alone will run you more than that.

I do like those Pontiacs too, the wheels are cool and the steering wheel is pretty awesome as well.

seminole_kev · January 2005

unless there is something critically wrong with that motor, you should be able to at least have it servicable and running for under $2K. For $2K I could probably have the engine nice and slightly built up if it isn't just trashed.

michaellno · January 2005

In the early and mid 60's wasn't Pontiac run by none other than John DeLorean? I know he had a stellar career at GM before striking out on his own, duping foreign countries out of millions of dollars to develop a new auto plant, and getting arrested for attempting to arrange for a cocaine deal to keep his company solvent?

I'm not trying to imply anything with this post, just wanted to confirm my facts.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2005

Spider Veloces are worth some money but I don't think THAT much money. I'd value the car at about $28K but if it were a trophy winning restoration of such superb quality that one could deem it faultless throughout, well maybe $35K.

The most valuable Alfas are pre 1958 because that's the cut off date for many prestigious European re-creations of historical races.

The 1300 is a little screamer. You can rev that engine and bend the tach needle on its peg, up to 8,000 rpm or so if you are daring enough.

It's a really really fun car.

But GEESH, $45K I'd buy a Ferrari 328, an MGB and fly around the world with what's left.

andre1969 · January 2005

are too terribly expensive to rebuild, or very hard to find a replacement. After all, the majority of them came in just two sizes: 389 CID from 1959-1966 and 400 CID from 1967-1979. There was a scattering of 421's and 428's thoughout the 60's, but these were mainly limited production, high-output engines.

Pontiac built a lot of full-sized cars in the 60's, and the vast majority of them were 389/400's. It's not like Chevy, where the cars ran the gamut from a 6-cyl on up through a bunch of underpowered smallblocks, then a bunch of nicely powered ones, and a scattering of big blocks.

I think the Pontiac block is what's unofficially known as a "medium" block. Bigger than something like a Chevy smallblock, so it's going to be more durable and able to take more stress, but still lighter and smaller than something like a Chevy big-block. I've heard that once you get to the 455 range though, they tended to be more fragile than a Buick or Olds 455.

Anyway though, while they're not as common as something like a Chevy smallblock or Mopar 318 or slant six, they're still pretty easy and cheap to get parts for.

fintail · January 2005

So I guess if it is as nice as it looks and you could get it for 3-4K, you might do OK.

blh7068 · January 2005

"After all, the majority of them came in just two sizes: 389 CID from 1959-1966 and 400 CID from 1967-1979. There was a scattering of 421's and 428's thoughout the 60's, but these were mainly limited production, high-output engines."

For the most part thats true...but dont forget up until 1967 the 326 that was a mainstay in the tempest/lemans line...and that one year(67)in the firebird.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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